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# Gun Control

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approx murders in 2012 in north america is 15,000 approx [googled]. Looking at it habitable area wise, in 2012 Europes murder rate was 22,000 approx.

America seems safer than Europe.

You argue there were approximately 15.000 murders in 2012 "North America". In Mexico alone there were 26037 murders in 2012, which is almost double the number you "googled". So I'm going to assume you mean in the United States, as in the country, not North America the continent. Which means you're essentially comparing a country to a whole continent, classic. Now allow me to use your own logic against you. The US had 314.1 million Inhabitants in 2012 with 14287 murders. Europe had 740 million inhabitants in 2012 and, taking your number at face value, 22,000 murders. Quick bit of math (again taking your number at face value) tells us that amounts to a murder rate of 2.97 per 100.000 inhabitants whereas for the US it amounts to a murder rate of 4.54 per 100.000 inhabitants.* Making Europe safer in this metric.

*Rates calculated with rough approximations given of both number of inhabitants and recorded homicides. Real rates differ but support conclusion.

easy raavi. no need to "murder" me with your logic

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I don't even f*cking care anymore. Why don't we outlaw everything that could be dangerous?! Why don't we lock ourselves up in a room filled with pillows to keep us safe?! Here are my great ideas:

- No more shooting sports, people could possibly get shot!

- No more motorsports, people could get run over!

- No more baseball, you could kill someone with a baseball bat!

- No more darts, you could poke someone's eye out!

- No more hiking, you could get pushed by someone and die!

- No more sailing, you could get thrown of your boat!

- No more boxing, you could possibly hit someone to death!

- No more chess, you could use a chess piece to choke someone!

Why don't we also ban knives and forks? We'll just eat with out hands. Oh ,wait! You could kill somone using your hands! Let's just chop of our own hands!

You are remarkably stupid. How do you do it?

You dumbasses really don't get that was a joke?

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I don't even f*cking care anymore. Why don't we outlaw everything that could be dangerous?! Why don't we lock ourselves up in a room filled with pillows to keep us safe?! Here are my great ideas:

- No more shooting sports, people could possibly get shot!

- No more motorsports, people could get run over!

- No more baseball, you could kill someone with a baseball bat!

- No more darts, you could poke someone's eye out!

- No more hiking, you could get pushed by someone and die!

- No more sailing, you could get thrown of your boat!

- No more boxing, you could possibly hit someone to death!

- No more chess, you could use a chess piece to choke someone!

Why don't we also ban knives and forks? We'll just eat with out hands. Oh ,wait! You could kill somone using your hands! Let's just chop of our own hands!

You are remarkably stupid. How do you do it?

You dumbasses really don't get that was a joke?

A joke would have to be funny. If you meant this ironically, no one knows your political beliefs enough to understand you were being ironic, but as those are NRA talking points, I and the Yokel (probably... but I shouldn't speak for him)assume you are just vomiting up that back-asswards logic. Especially bearing in mind the quotes in your siggy.

Edited by AlienTwo

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I don't even f*cking care anymore. Why don't we outlaw everything that could be dangerous?! Why don't we lock ourselves up in a room filled with pillows to keep us safe?! Here are my great ideas:

- No more shooting sports, people could possibly get shot!

- No more motorsports, people could get run over!

- No more baseball, you could kill someone with a baseball bat!

- No more darts, you could poke someone's eye out!

- No more hiking, you could get pushed by someone and die!

- No more sailing, you could get thrown of your boat!

- No more boxing, you could possibly hit someone to death!

- No more chess, you could use a chess piece to choke someone!

Why don't we also ban knives and forks? We'll just eat with out hands. Oh ,wait! You could kill somone using your hands! Let's just chop of our own hands!

You are remarkably stupid. How do you do it?

You dumbasses really don't get that was a joke?

A joke would have to be funny. If you meant this ironically, no one knows your political beliefs enough to understand you were being ironic, but as those are NRA talking points, I and the Yokel (probably... but I shouldn't speak for him)assume you are just vomiting up that back-asswards logic. Especially bearing in mind the quotes in your siggy.

My political beliefs? I guess I'll tell you then. I'm 100% pro-gun, which is kinda rare in my country. (most people are very anti-gun here) Believe what you want, but I think any sane, law-abiding person should be able to enjoy firearms, shoot firearms and own firearms. It's not about violence and certainly not about killing. Guess anyone would be sour if your hobby/sport get's vomited on every day by the media and politicians. Especially after horrific events like the recent shooting. People talk about banning firearms, because they can be dangerous. So, I made a list of other ''dangerous'' things that we should ban. Get it? Bash me for it if you want, I stand by my beliefs.

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You dumbasses really don't get that was a joke?

"It was a joke...

... but I stand by my beliefs that either all these things should be banned, or guns should be unbanned."

k

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My political beliefs? I guess I'll tell you then. I'm 100% pro-gun, which is kinda rare in my country. (most people are very anti-gun here) Believe what you want, but I think any sane, law-abiding person should be able to enjoy firearms, shoot firearms and own firearms. It's not about violence and certainly not about killing. Guess anyone would be sour if your hobby/sport get's vomited on every day by the media and politicians. Especially after horrific events like the recent shooting. People talk about banning firearms, because they can be dangerous. So, I made a list of other ''dangerous'' things that we should ban. Get it? Bash me for it if you want, I stand by my beliefs.

So then... not to repeat what Yen said (but totally repeating what Yen said), that was less a joke and more an outburst of true beliefs.

That's fine, we don't have to agree, but at least be honest.

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Maybe Pokemon should be banned as well. It can turn people evil and make them want to kill other Pokemon players.

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Maybe Pokemon should be banned as well. It can turn people evil and make them want to kill other Pokemon players.

Maybe there is a real and measurable difference between things created to kill humans and a cartoon/game series.

Maybe not, but it's worth considering, isn't it?

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My political beliefs? I guess I'll tell you then. I'm 100% pro-gun, which is kinda rare in my country. (most people are very anti-gun here) Believe what you want, but I think any sane, law-abiding person should be able to enjoy firearms, shoot firearms and own firearms. It's not about violence and certainly not about killing. Guess anyone would be sour if your hobby/sport get's vomited on every day by the media and politicians. Especially after horrific events like the recent shooting. People talk about banning firearms, because they can be dangerous. So, I made a list of other ''dangerous'' things that we should ban. Get it? Bash me for it if you want, I stand by my beliefs.

So then... not to repeat what Yen said (but totally repeating what Yen said), that was less a joke and more an outburst of true beliefs.

That's fine, we don't have to agree, but at least be honest.

Did I say it was a joke? Oops...I said that out of pure anger, so sorry for that. Didn't know what I was saying. Wouldn't you be sick and tired of people trying to ban something you like 24/7?

Edited by RageFaceMax

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God damn USA, what's your obsession with guns?

There's any other country where people go in a killing spree so often?

Don't tell me you are able to kill a shopping mall or school full of people with a knife.

It's not guns that kill, it's people that kill

Ban Pokémon?

I think most people these days can't raise their kids propperly.

Many don't have the respect anymore and they think they can do what they want.

Edited by Claptrap NL

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guns dont make people crazy. they are just crazy. a tool is just a method to kill. people will still kill each other if they want.

See the bigger picture.

If guns had not been freely available to people for so long, there would not be an ingrained culture in the US around guns, around being able to own guns 'for protection'.

The main reason people in the US need guns for protection is because so many other people have guns. They wouldn't need protection if guns were controlled as tightly as possible. Of course guns can't be outright removed from US society, because it's been ingrained for so long.

Giving people 'the right' to own a gun gives people that shouldn't have access to guns a much easier route to them. Yes, crazy people are doing the killing, but they would be less able to (note, not less likely but less able) if they couldn't walk into a pawn shop and pick up a .38 or whatever for \$100. Or whatever the going rate is for a handgun. I have no idea, I live in a country that has a healthy respect and fear of guns, not a rabid desire to own one.

You give a crazy person access to guns, they will use them. You don't, they won't, or at least are FAR less likely to be able to get one.

Think man, think.

Less guns = less shootings. It's really that simple.

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God damn USA, what's your obsession with guns?

There's any other country where people go in a killing spree so often?

Don't tell me you are able to kill a shopping mall or school full of people with a knife.

It's not guns that kill, it's people that kill Guns don't kill, but sure they help.

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My political beliefs? I guess I'll tell you then. I'm 100% pro-gun, which is kinda rare in my country. (most people are very anti-gun here) Believe what you want, but I think any sane, law-abiding person should be able to enjoy firearms, shoot firearms and own firearms. It's not about violence and certainly not about killing. Guess anyone would be sour if your hobby/sport get's vomited on every day by the media and politicians. Especially after horrific events like the recent shooting. People talk about banning firearms, because they can be dangerous. So, I made a list of other ''dangerous'' things that we should ban. Get it? Bash me for it if you want, I stand by my beliefs.

So then... not to repeat what Yen said (but totally repeating what Yen said), that was less a joke and more an outburst of true beliefs.

That's fine, we don't have to agree, but at least be honest.

Did I say it was a joke? Oops...I said that out of pure anger, so sorry for that. Didn't know what I was saying. Wouldn't you be sick and tired of people trying to ban something you like 24/7?

I smoke pot and play video games, that is my life. Difference is, you can't kill people with either of those.

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You give a crazy person access to guns, they will use them. You don't, they won't, or at least are FAR less likely to be able to get one.

This, I gotta agree. Though it still won't help. If a person is determined enough, they'll buy it illegally.

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I smoke pot and play video games, that is my life. Difference is, you can't kill people with either of those.

But dude, both of those are gateways to murdering a school full of children!

Funny thing about Pot. They say it's a gateway drug, but I've been smoking it for 20 years and I still don't own a single f*cking gate.

But anyways. Same point as I last made - people are always going to be crazy, letting them have access to guns is crazier than they will ever be. You CAN kill people with a bong, or you can kill people with a controller, in several ways, but they're not designed for that purpose. As someone rightly said above, the entire purpose of a gun is to shoot people. The purpose of a bong is not to bludgeon someone over the head with it and the entire purpose of a controller is not to choke someone with the cable.

Guns are killing machines. They are the very definition of a killing machine. Enabling every single grown adult in the US to have one of those is the very definition of stupid.

Take several million paranoid angry people and give them a gun each. They now have several million more reasons to be angry and paranoid. That will lead to bad things happening.

Let me rephrase that.

That has led to bad things happening.

You give a crazy person access to guns, they will use them. You don't, they won't, or at least are FAR less likely to be able to get one.

This, I gotta agree. Though it still won't help. If a person is determined enough, they'll buy it illegally.

Well of course. If they really want one, they'll get one on the black market. But that's very different to allowing someone to walk into Walmart and pick up a f*cking machine gun, isn't it?

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I smoke pot and play video games, that is my life. Difference is, you can't kill people with either of those.

But dude, both of those are gateways to murdering a school full of children!

Funny thing about Pot. They say it's a gateway drug, but I've been smoking it for 20 years and I still don't own a single f*cking gate.

You are the exception that proves the rule. I've been smoking for a similar amount of time, but I own three gates.

Ruined my life.

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I smoke pot and play video games, that is my life. Difference is, you can't kill people with either of those.

But dude, both of those are gateways to murdering a school full of children!

Funny thing about Pot. They say it's a gateway drug, but I've been smoking it for 20 years and I still don't own a single f*cking gate.

You are the exception that proves the rule. I've been smoking for a similar amount of time, but I own three gates.

Ruined my life.

I shoot guns and play video games, that is my life. Just because I can kill someone with a gun, doesn't mean I'm goig to do that. You'd have to be 100% insane and a psychopath to do that.

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I shoot guns and play video games, that is my life. Just because I can kill someone with a gun, doesn't mean I'm goig to do that. You'd have to be 100% insane and a psychopath to do that.

But does it makes sense to have easy access to those guns? Does it make sense to enable people that are, or even could go crazy to have guns?

Bryce Willams - seemed like a perfectly normal, sane man. He went crazy and shot people.

Remove the access to guns from EVERYONE and you immediately decrease the risk of crazy people shooting their guns, or people going crazy and shooting their guns. Whether you like it or not, you have to be able to see that enabling everyone that wants a gun to have one is simply a stupid thing to do. Whether you personally are sane or not is completely irrelevant in that argument.

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I shoot guns and play video games, that is my life. Just because I can kill someone with a gun, doesn't mean I'm goig to do that. You'd have to be 100% insane and a psychopath to do that.

But does it makes sense to have easy access to those guns? Does it make sense to enable people that are, or even could go crazy to have guns?

Bryce Willams - seemed like a perfectly normal, sane man. He went crazy and shot people.

Remove the access to guns from EVERYONE and you immediately decrease the risk of crazy people shooting their guns, or people going crazy and shooting their guns. Whether you like it or not, you have to be able to see that enabling everyone that wants a gun to have one is simply a stupid thing to do. Whether you personally are sane or not is completely irrelevant in that argument.

What? That's a terrible idea... it just makes too much sense to work.

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I shoot guns and play video games, that is my life. Just because I can kill someone with a gun, doesn't mean I'm goig to do that. You'd have to be 100% insane and a psychopath to do that.

But does it makes sense to have easy access to those guns? Does it make sense to enable people that are, or even could go crazy to have guns?

Bryce Willams - seemed like a perfectly normal, sane man. He went crazy and shot people.

Remove the access to guns from EVERYONE and you immediately decrease the risk of crazy people shooting their guns, or people going crazy and shooting their guns. Whether you like it or not, you have to be able to see that enabling everyone that wants a gun to have one is simply a stupid thing to do. Whether you personally are sane or not is completely irrelevant in that argument.

We don't have easy access to firearms. We have to go through a sh*t-ton of background checks just to be able to use the guns at a shooting range. If you want to own a gun, you have to go through even more background checks and paperwork. The police also pay you a visit every month to inspect your gun safe. You also need to have a surveilance camera in your house, so the police can check who has access to your guns. That's how it's like here. I don't know how it could be even more strict. Police escorts if you want to go to the range, just to make sure you're not doing anything wrong?

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I shoot guns and play video games, that is my life. Just because I can kill someone with a gun, doesn't mean I'm goig to do that. You'd have to be 100% insane and a psychopath to do that.

But does it makes sense to have easy access to those guns? Does it make sense to enable people that are, or even could go crazy to have guns?

Bryce Willams - seemed like a perfectly normal, sane man. He went crazy and shot people.

Remove the access to guns from EVERYONE and you immediately decrease the risk of crazy people shooting their guns, or people going crazy and shooting their guns. Whether you like it or not, you have to be able to see that enabling everyone that wants a gun to have one is simply a stupid thing to do. Whether you personally are sane or not is completely irrelevant in that argument.

We don't have easy access to firearms. We have to go through a sh*t-ton of background checks just to be able to use the guns at a shooting range. If you want to own a gun, you have to go through even more background checks and paperwork. The police also pay you a visit every month to inspect your gun safe. You also need to have a surveilance camera in your house, so the police can check who has access to your guns. That's how it's like here. I don't know how it could be even more strict. Police escorts if you want to go to the range, just to make sure you're not doing anything wrong?

Where are you from? Because that's not how it is in most the States in America.

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I shoot guns and play video games, that is my life. Just because I can kill someone with a gun, doesn't mean I'm goig to do that. You'd have to be 100% insane and a psychopath to do that.

But does it makes sense to have easy access to those guns? Does it make sense to enable people that are, or even could go crazy to have guns?

Bryce Willams - seemed like a perfectly normal, sane man. He went crazy and shot people.

Remove the access to guns from EVERYONE and you immediately decrease the risk of crazy people shooting their guns, or people going crazy and shooting their guns. Whether you like it or not, you have to be able to see that enabling everyone that wants a gun to have one is simply a stupid thing to do. Whether you personally are sane or not is completely irrelevant in that argument.

We don't have easy access to firearms. We have to go through a sh*t-ton of background checks just to be able to use the guns at a shooting range. If you want to own a gun, you have to go through even more background checks and paperwork. The police also pay you a visit every month to inspect your gun safe. You also need to have a surveilance camera in your house, so the police can check who has access to your guns. That's how it's like here. I don't know how it could be even more strict. Police escorts if you want to go to the range, just to make sure you're not doing anything wrong?

Where are you from? Because that's not how it is in most the States in America.

Haven't you noticed my flag? I'm Dutch. I know that the U.S. are very open to guns, except for a couple of states. California, New York, etc. But you guys have a Second Amendment, we don't. You guys have the NRA to protect gun ownership, we don't. We are basically on our own. Well, we do have the KNSA (Koninklijke Nederlandse Schietsport Associatie, translated: Royal Dutch Shooting sports Association) but they really aren't that effective. Especially because they don't have enough members.

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R.I.P to those killed, I feel so bad for the families.

This guy would have stabbed them to death if he didn't own a gun. Not starting a gun debate, just saying this guy is a f*cking psychotic asshole who deserves a nice lethal injection.

You can only do so much with a knife... I mean you think you'll just stand there when a guy is walking up to you with a blade... especially if he attacked your friend/co-worker. You can still throw it at someone but it has far less the accuracy of a gun, look at the Native Americans, they had these 'knives' and bows but a gun was far more superior.

Edited by Sayuri

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Haven't you noticed my flag? I'm Dutch. I know that the U.S. are very open to guns, except for a couple of states. California, New York, etc. But you guys have a Second Amendment, we don't. You guys have the NRA to protect gun ownership, we don't. We are basically on our own. Well, we do have the KNSA (Koninklijke Nederlandse Schietsport Associatie, translated: Royal Dutch Shooting sports Association) but they really aren't that effective. Especially because they don't have enough members.

I noticed your flag, but I don't always believe them... regardless, you are arguing against American gun control so it's a bit confusing. Let me educate you on American issues; It's super easy to get a gun here, we require only background checks for handguns and none of the security measures you describe, so our situation is waaaaaaay different than the Dutch one. I would LOVE it if we had the protections you speak of, but our politicians don't have the backbone to even require full background checks after the slayings at Sandy Hook (if you don't know, that's when a gunman killed a bunch of god damned 1st graders).

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Haven't you noticed my flag? I'm Dutch. I know that the U.S. are very open to guns, except for a couple of states. California, New York, etc. But you guys have a Second Amendment, we don't. You guys have the NRA to protect gun ownership, we don't. We are basically on our own. Well, we do have the KNSA (Koninklijke Nederlandse Schietsport Associatie, translated: Royal Dutch Shooting sports Association) but they really aren't that effective. Especially because they don't have enough members.

I noticed your flag, but I don't always believe them... regardless, you are arguing against American gun control so it's a bit confusing. Let me educate you on American issues; It's super easy to get a gun here, we require only background checks for handguns and none of the security measures you describe, so our situation is waaaaaaay different than the Dutch one. I would LOVE it if we had the protections you speak of, but our politicians don't have the backbone to even require full background checks after the slayings at Sandy Hook (if you don't know, that's when a gunman killed a bunch of god damned 1st graders).

Well, we are one big community. We support each other. That's why I'm ranting about American gun control. Let me describe you the Dutch laws in a nutshell:

- You can buy your first firearm when you're 18 years old. But you're only allowed to buy one if you have been a KNSA member for over a year. You can also only buy .22LR firearms your first time.

- You can't buy all the guns you want. Your gun license has several ''stages''. You start at .22LR. Want something bigger? Then you have to pay more money! Want something even bigger? Make the cash flow! Also, your license isn't valid forever. So you have to re-buy your license a couple of times.

- When you own a gun, you have to buy a safe that can be bolted to the wall and floor. You also need a surveilance camera, so the cops know you're not doing anything stupid. Basically, the area around your gun safe get's turned into a damn Big Brother show.

- The police can inspect your home and safe whenever they feel like it. If they find something they don't like, you lose all your guns. And trust me, they find things they don't like VERY fast.

- Your ammo and guns have to be stored in different rooms. Your ammo also has to be stored in a safe, which has to be bolted to the floor or wall.

- You can't own any handgun that is chambered for a caliber higher than .44. Why? No one knows! I even asked the cops when they were inspecting a friend's safe. They didn't even know.

- You can't own more than 5 firearms in total. If you're a collector, you are basically screwed.

Just some rules. I could write an entire book about this subject. I'd love to get rid of some of these rules, but that won't happen.

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Here's my take on gun control. Although I don't own a firearm at this moment, I've always been a gun enthusiast with a fascination for this tool. But when it comes to gun control... should the laws in U.S. be more strict? Absolutely.

There used to be a time I would argue that "they will find a different way to kill" but the fact is, an increase of gun control will decrease the amount of senseless crimes like this occurring. Yes, it wont stop people from killing but it will cause a huge decrease. And here's the thing, psychopaths might contemplate committing murder other ways if a gun is not an option, but the likeliness of them going through with it drops considerably. A gun gives them power over people and also enables them to commit mass-murders that effects X amount of people simultaneously whereas with a knife or other melee weapons, they can't possibly cause that much damage. Many of the murderers are also cowards who would never think of intimidating anyone without pissing themselves in fear. With a gun, they suddenly gain the courage to do that and can easily have the advantage over their victims with this powerful tool. Without the gun, the number of psychopaths going through with what they are thinking will decrease.

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Maybe Pokemon should be banned as well. It can turn people evil and make them want to kill other Pokemon players.

You are a f*cking idiot, simple as that.

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don't sweat him, he's a troll.

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I would like to thank the people who gave their opinion on this. To repeat myself, watching the video has hit me pretty hard, and I said before that I don't want to start another gun debate.

With that said, I requested this topic to be locked, but I appreciate every kind word said. While I wasn't directly involved in the incident, it quickly hit me how f*cked up the world can sometimes be.

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As a gun owner and as somebody who comes from a cop family firing guns since I was 12, I support guns and gun rights. I also support background checks for violent felonies, references, police interview, waiting period, and psychological background. That said, I'm not entirely convinced taking everyone's gun is going to reduce gun crime. Criminals who act with firearms don't follow the law... In Detroit right now, wherein the city has reduced gun restrictions and made it permissible for law abiding citizens to carry, violent crime has gone down, and the police chief is attributing it in part to citizens protecting themselves.

Edited by Irviding

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