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The Arrow of Time.


reiniat
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Does time have a direction? Modern physics would claim that it is the increase of entropy in a system, and you experience that every day; you let a cup fall to the floor and bam!! it breaks, disorder!! more entropy!! and then the pieces stop moving because the system has reached equilibrium, which is in fact the maximum state of entropy. So now grab the pieces and throw them to the floor again, does the cup rearrange itself? nope.

Is that even possible? to throw the pieces of a cup and have it rearrange itself? The answer is yes, but this kind of order is only one in an obcenously large amount of possibilities, the complete set of this possibilities is called entropy. And it looks like it always tends to disorder, but the thing is it does not end with disorder.

 

So the current laws of physics allow time to move backwards (your cup pieces rearrange into the initial cup), except it doesnt (or t least we havent seen it yet), so plenty of hypothesis have been formulated trying to explain why we dont experience that.

One of them (or a group of them) propose that asymmetry in time can arise naturally from time-symmetric physical laws.

 

So this guy J. Barbour made a limited simulation that only allows gravity (which is time symmetric), and he ended up with this:

arrow_complexity3.png

Two arrows of time that share the same space, both move from simplicity (clumped all together) to complexity (all spread out). if you live in one of the timelines the other will seem to move backwards.... Except of course it is impossible to witness both as the requisite for switching time direction requires both to converge in perfect zero complexity (and it is impossible to transmit information trough that).

Do notice that the line that represents time does not have a direction by itself, it is the same thing if you move left or right trough it, the difference is made by the changes in the complexity of the universe. Also both systems evolve from low entropy states to high entropy states and then to equilibrium.

If this was true it would mean (among other things) that the universe is everlasting, its always been there, it will always be there but you cant possibly know what happened last time, so you cannot ever be aware of time moving backwards.

Some scientists would claim that even the most simple of systems (i.e. no gravity just an initial force that pushes the particles like billiard balls) would also result in the same two directional system.

 

 

This is actually the most straightforward theory about the direction of time that i know of (it doesn care about quantum stuff or the cosmological constant, or the proportions of baryonic matter in the universe), and chances are you have already heard about it, so it makes for a good discussion.

 

 

 

Sauce: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy https://www.sciencenews.org/article/arrow-time

Edited by reiniat
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tuff_luv_capo

I never saw time as a tangible thing, and could never follow when people tried to explain otherwise. But this is the closest I've come.

|

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Well I think that all points in time and space are a singularity and connected, so you are able to jump from one side of space to another and back and fourth in time. That's just my theory anyway.

Edited by Aqua97
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make total destroy

Time is just like that Hootie song tbh

  • Like 3

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Mr. Scratch

People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff.

 

Trust me, I watch Doctor Who.

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What I don't understand is sometimes I have a dream and then weeks later it comes true, like everything that I had in that dream is exactly the same, only for a few seconds though.

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What I don't understand is sometimes I have a dream and then weeks later it comes true, like everything that I had in that dream is exactly the same, only for a few seconds though.

 

That's what we call a coincidence! :)

L71cGcK.png

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What I don't understand is sometimes I have a dream and then weeks later it comes true, like everything that I had in that dream is exactly the same, only for a few seconds though.

 

That's what we call a coincidence! :)

 

No, you don't understand. Everything is exactly the same, The way the light is, the sounds, the postilions of furniture for example. you have obviously never experienced it. :)

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No, you don't understand. Everything is exactly the same, The way the light is, the sounds, the postilions of furniture for example. you have obviously never experienced it. :)

Why didn't you predict that a "ghost" would show up in that picture in advance instead of noticing it afterward and asking GTA forums about it?

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What I don't understand is sometimes I have a dream and then weeks later it comes true, like everything that I had in that dream is exactly the same, only for a few seconds though.

 

That's what we call a coincidence! :)

 

No, you don't understand. Everything is exactly the same, The way the light is, the sounds, the postilions of furniture for example. you have obviously never experienced it. :)

 

 

Yes, I have.

 

What happens with the human brain is that we find the things for which we search. I used to be afraid of spiders, so I always found spiders in my room. Now I'm not, and I haven't seen one in years. Strange. The same applies to paranormal activity. If you want dreams to have meaning, and if you search for meaning, they will have meaning. If you think ghosts are real, you'll see a ghost.

 

Now, a cornerstone of the aforementioned incident is that you remembered your dream. A memory is one of the most brittle things there is, because every time you remember something, you're remembering the last time you remembered it, so you'll remember any addition or mistake as if they were true. This is why I think it's terrible that we rely so heavily on eyewitnesses in a court of law.

 

edit, an additional point: even if you could have an objective observation of your dream, dreams are a construct of the human mind and will utilize what we already know. Therefore, a dream would include lighting, sound, and the positioning of objects in a way one had either already experienced, or in a way which would be highly likely based upon what you or your subconsciousness already knows.

 

Anyway, you seem convinced. Why don't you take on the James Randi foundation's Million Dollar Challenge, which has been standing since 1964.

 

On a side note, what is the root of your belief in the supernatural?

Edited by Marwin

L71cGcK.png

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No, you don't understand. Everything is exactly the same, The way the light is, the sounds, the postilions of furniture for example. you have obviously never experienced it. :)

Why didn't you predict that a "ghost" would show up in that picture in advance instead of noticing it afterward and asking GTA forums about it?

 

Can you all just stop? It's pathetic. So what I believe in ghosts, you need to stop it and move on... :/ now lets get back on topic. :) I wonder if time travel will ever be possible?

Edited by Aqua97
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Can you all just stop? It's pathetic. So what I believe in ghosts, you need to stop it and move on... :/ now lets get back on topic. :) I wonder if time travel will ever be possible?

Dude, Marwin replied to you, he's trying to make some discussion. I'd be nice if you stopped just throwing at all your ideas and actually, y'know, discussed them.

 

Anyway, all I'm getting from the OP is that if you super simplify literally everything then you get a simple and straightforward result. Which doesn't seem that...useful. Maybe I'm not understanding it correctly, idk.

gwZr6Zc.png

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How about we stop derailing the topic with half-baked ideas and petty bickering, hmmmkay?

  • Like 1

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What I don't understand is sometimes I have a dream and then weeks later it comes true, like everything that I had in that dream is exactly the same, only for a few seconds though.

 

That's what we call a coincidence! :)

 

No, you don't understand. Everything is exactly the same, The way the light is, the sounds, the postilions of furniture for example. you have obviously never experienced it. :)

 

 

Yes, I have.

 

What happens with the human brain is that we find the things for which we search. I used to be afraid of spiders, so I always found spiders in my room. Now I'm not, and I haven't seen one in years. Strange. The same applies to paranormal activity. If you want dreams to have meaning, and if you search for meaning, they will have meaning. If you think ghosts are real, you'll see a ghost.

In contrast, if you dont think ghosts are real and dreams cant predict the future, then you simply dont give importance to the phenomena you experience; after all every single person can and do hallucinate every once in a while. Specially deja vus, if youre young (15-25) youll be experiencing a lot of deja vus, its just the way the brain works.

And what happens if the manifestations are beyond what could be considered normal? Well, then you go to the shrink and he concludes that youre narcoleptic, the most dumb and boring condition ever :p

 

Anyway, all I'm getting from the OP is that if you super simplify literally everything then you get a simple and straightforward result. Which doesn't seem that...useful. Maybe I'm not understanding it correctly, idk.

Yes, oversimplification is one of the main criticisms for this theory and limited universe simulations in general (often called "toy universes"). Of course this simulation in particular is compatible with most physics notions but i thought the explanations were beyond the scope of this thread (tons of text walls).

Of course, science is also a very pragmatic discipline; it loves the stuff that works, thats why we still use the Newton physics model, its simple and it works like a charm in most situations (its not like we travel at light speed everyday), but it is not the actual truth.

Edited by reiniat
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The arrow of time, which whomever cleverly just thought up is just that, a measure off, a measure too.

 

Nothing else, unfortunately or fortunately.

 

Equilibrium is just subjective theory, unless there is some proof which I have yet to see from earth, too what is referred to have it.

 

I was going to say something else regarding some thoughts from the Op, but lets just let this be first. No long discussions please.

 

Time has direction, do you want to know what it is resembled as? [ 8 ]

 

This is what it is from our perspective, a human perceivable perspective from this earth, from this solar system, from this universe, from

this multiverse, from this dimension, from this current.

 

:rampage: "iTRiP" :rampage:

Edited by iTRiP
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Time is a flat circle.

 

 

  • Like 2

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snip

Are we doing that? Cuz i have a corny pop song about how everybody dies.

 

 

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Time, as we know it is a construct of the human mind to alow us to understand 'then' and 'now' and to some extent the 'future'.

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I never saw time as a tangible thing

well, it is.

doesn't really matter whether you see it or not.

 

C5k9IeL.jpg

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Shouldn't going back in time be theoretically impossible due to the fact that it would decrease entropy?

Edited by TeleportUppercutSpam
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Shouldn't going back in time be theoretically impossible due to the fact that it would decrease entropy?

That is something nobody really knows for sure, it bows down to whether the universe is finite or infinite (and isolated or not), or if a smooth beginning necessarily needs a smooth ending, or if quantum mechanics are also truly irreversible (at least the current answer for that is yes).

And of course, we assume entropy gives direction to time because it is the only process that is not time symmetric.... Except we are not sure if the universe expansion is also time symmetric, hell, it could happen that the universe started contracting instead of expanding whilst still having entropy increase.

Actually we still dont know if the second law of thermodynamics applies at a molecular level, and theres some documented cases of time asymmetric molecular phenomena that we cannot explain if we dont assign it its own time direction.

 

The universe would need to be finite, isolated, end smooth (as in not with a bang), entropy would need to be the only time asymmetric phenomena and the expansion of the universe would need to be a consequence of it, also the energy density of the vacuum would need to be zero (or something even weirder), and macroscopic quantum effects (such as sunlight) would need a new explanation.... And that is actually a much simpler model than the one I described at the beginning of this thread :p, see Heat Death of the Universe.

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