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CBH

4th of July

Recommended Posts

CBH

The idea of a faction of genocidal colonialists celebrating "independence" from having to pay back into the brutal empire that spawned them is pretty farcical. July 4th is a day you should pour one out and think of the millions of natives snuffed out by these monsters.

If you go all in on this american nationalist nonsense you might as well make Vlad Dracula's birthday a holiday too. Happy Fred West Day, everyone?

Edited by CBH

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universetwisters

Muh country right or wrong and it's a lot better to fly this flag than the confederate one but that debate's for another day



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPKp29Luryc


Happy 4th of July everybody! Enjoy your cookouts and fireworks!

Edited by universetwisters

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Otter

You must put on a hell of a show at highschool assemblies, CBH.

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GTA3Rockstar

I love me some big booming fireworks.

 

Happy 4th!

 

239 years of joyous living!

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X S

I heard those red pills cause constipation.

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Dingdongs

f*ck you america is great you stupid communist go back to red vietnam f*ckb ag

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Eutyphro

f*ck you america is great you stupid communist go back to red vietnam f*ckb ag

Yeah, Nam! Best mutant babies in the world thanks to Murricans! Go Murrica!

 

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sivispacem

In all fairness, defoliant warfare was a British idea, we basically told the Yanks it was a worthwhile investment 'cos it worked in Malaya. I think Monsanto holds more responsibility for the damage Agent Orange caused than the US government.

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Dingdongs

Plenty of American service people got deformities from agent orange too.

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Otter

Let's not play this out. Show me a country free from immoral histories. Hell, I hate to get O'Reilly up in here but show me five. The notion that celebrating a country's founding is somehow complicity celebrating all of the horrible things ever done under that flag is rabble rousing of the highest order, and contributing absolutely nothing to the betterment of mankind.

 

 

Now, would it be great if there were a celebrated period of memorial, a moment of reckoning, for every nation on it's anniversary? That would be fantastic. But that's a far cry from painting the entire day with a red brush, innit.

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Eutyphro

Great apologetics.The Brits told em so, so they are not really guilty of the horrors they committed, in stead the profit driven entity that produced the horror causing material is, and it also affected some foot soldiers and that musn't have been their intention, so that means they must've been completely oblivious of what they were doing.

But really this is not what this thread was about, it was more about the horrific genocide against Native Americans and how bizarre certain US celebrations are in this context. I don't have much to add to that discussion though, as I have little knowledge about US holidays and their historical origin and meaning. I responded because I think it is pretty strange to mention Vietnam in a comment which also claims America's greatness. If there is a good historical example of 'America not being great' it is what they did in Vietnam

Edited by Eutyphro

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GTA_stu

Colonisation isn't the same as genocide. The vast majority of deaths were due to disease. Calling what happened to Native Americans in the centuries following Columbus' arrival a genocide is nothing but meaningless cheap rhetoric. Also what Otter said in his first paragraph. Self flaggelating ourselves over every past indiscretion our countries are responsible for and which we had no control over is ridiculous.

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Otter

There were concentrated efforts to remove massive populations of the natives using small-pox infected materials. This is documented, and it is genocide. Denying it isn't going to help anything, even if these were very isolated incidents.

That said, I've read some theories that the vast - 90% - majority of native populations were wiped out by European diseases far before the Old World showed up in force. A post-apocalyptic world was colonized. One has to wonder how different things would be today, had the natives stood a chance against those diseases.

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CBH

Things that are genocide:

Offering bounties for dead natives.

Death marching natives off of land you fancy.

 

If there's a country full of millions of none white people, then a few whites come over, and within a few centuries there's millions of whites and very few natives, guess what? It's a genocide.

Americans are fond of narratives like "oh natives didn't know what land ownership was!", even though they kept killing natives off in pogroms even after native tribes arranged themselves into states. Whites reached America in the 17th century. You were deliberately killing them through the 19th.

They're also fond of the "oh, those natives just died off from diseases we brought over! Total accident!". Well, surprise: White people weren't magically immune to the diseases common in native societies, either. Whites are not supreme.

The overriding cause of the natives going from the dominant group to a tiny minority is not an accident. It's because white people made a deliberate and organized attempt to exterminate them in any land that they desired, which turned out to be almost all of it. The weapons you used to do this were not accidental sneezes, but guns.

Edited by CBH

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Stephan90

Plenty of American service people got deformities from agent orange too.

 

Everyone knows that, but that doesn't make it any better. Still today 1 million people in Vietnam suffer from the consequences of Agent Orange. There are 100,000 children with malformations. The American veterans receive compensation but Vietnamese victims nothing. You can't change what happened in the past. But Vietnam still suffers very much from this.

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Absurdity

"Native" -- Man, that's such a self-righteous term. Meanwhile nobody knows if the tribes were native to the land or whether they took it from somebody else after they emigrated from Asia. Maybe the tribes drove off and slaughtered the Vikings who were there first -- but at the very least they took the land away from the animals that were already there.

Edited by Rusty Balls

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GTA_stu

There were concentrated efforts to remove massive populations of the natives using small-pox infected materials. This is documented, and it is genocide. Denying it isn't going to help anything, even if these were very isolated incidents.

The small pox infected blankets thing is widely disputed and regarded as myth. But even if it did happen it was definitely an isolated incident and not a "concentrated effort to remove massive populations". It would constitue biological warfare, but that doesn't automatically make it genocide. Just like old medieval armies tossing corpses over city walls during sieges doesn't count as genocide.

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sivispacem

Great apologetics.The Brits told em so, so they are not really guilty of the horrors they committed, in stead the profit driven entity that produced the horror causing material is, and it also affected some foot soldiers and that musn't have been their intention, so that means they must've been completely oblivious of what they were doing.

In all fairness most documentary evidence suggests that the USAF who conducted most of the spraying were completely unaware that agent orange contained 2,3,7,8-TCDD or any other severely toxic or carcinogenic compound. The stuff was sold commercially in the US at the time, and scientific voices arguing that the process bring used could lead to the development of highly toxic impurities like dioxins were consistently disrupted or dissuaded by Dow and Monsanto, who were already aware but were afraid knowledge amongst decision makers that the stuff was hugely toxic would stop the US Military from buying it and result in the EPA or Department of Agriculture banning its use in the US.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying that the US us culpable and that their behaviour wrt lack of proper consideration and testing was abhorrent, but there's a lot of bullsh*t around the Agent Orange case. Like people pretending it was intentional chemical warfare.

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Otter

 

There were concentrated efforts to remove massive populations of the natives using small-pox infected materials. This is documented, and it is genocide. Denying it isn't going to help anything, even if these were very isolated incidents.

The small pox infected blankets thing is widely disputed and regarded as myth. But even if it did happen it was definitely an isolated incident and not a "concentrated effort to remove massive populations". It would constitue biological warfare, but that doesn't automatically make it genocide. Just like old medieval armies tossing corpses over city walls during sieges doesn't count as genocide.

 

 

Now you're debating semantics. (In D&D?!!?!? Go figure!) Biological warefare... against civilian populations.

 

 

P.S. You will Do well to try to Innoculate the Indians by means of Blanketts, as well as to try Every other method that can serve to Extirpate this Execrable Race. I should be very glad your Scheme for Hunting them Down by Dogs could take Effect, but England is at too great a Distance to think of that at present.

 

 

We can't solve problems by turning an indignantly blind eye to them, Stu. Not sure if you've got a semantic twist on "Extirpate this Excrable Race" but it sure sounds genocidal to me.

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GTA_stu

It's not semantics by any stretch. Biological warfare does not = genocide, it's just a particular type of warfare. I don't know what else to say.

 

And that quote you've completely taken out of context is from 1 British general referring to the siege of his fort by Native Americans during the Indian wars. His seeing the extermination of his enemies who were besieging him, as a favourable outcome, is not evidence in any way that the post-Colombian mass deaths of natives was a deliberate and orchestrated genocide. There could very well have been British generals who made similar assertions in any conflict throughout history, but it still doesn't mean those conflicts were genocidal.

 

Nobody's turning a blind eye, it just wasn't genocide. It was colonisation and subjugation, but it wasn't genocide. That's not hair splitting, it's quite a fundamental difference.

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Otter

Perhaps you're confusing policy driven attempts at genocide (which I am not arguing happened) with events like this which certainly are examples of genocidal practices and ideologies by prominent historical figures central to the founding of the Good Ol' US of A.

 

Furthermore - why is genocide the sticking point here? Really?

I mean, I guess it's nice to say 'sure, we enslaved millions, tortured enemies, bombed schools and children, but we sure never genocided anyone' but it doesn't really ring true. Or f*cking matter, really - is genocide somehow worse than slavery? Ask a slave next time you see one.

 

My central point is that every nation has a dark history and that we ought to acknowledge it - while keeping our chins up for the future.

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Eutyphro

In all fairness most documentary evidence suggests that the USAF who conducted most of the spraying were completely unaware that agent orange contained 2,3,7,8-TCDD or any other severely toxic or carcinogenic compound. The stuff was sold commercially in the US at the time, and scientific voices arguing that the process bring used could lead to the development of highly toxic impurities like dioxins were consistently disrupted or dissuaded by Dow and Monsanto, who were already aware but were afraid knowledge amongst decision makers that the stuff was hugely toxic would stop the US Military from buying it and result in the EPA or Department of Agriculture banning its use in the US.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying that the US us culpable and that their behaviour wrt lack of proper consideration and testing was abhorrent, but there's a lot of bullsh*t around the Agent Orange case. Like people pretending it was intentional chemical warfare.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/mar/29/usa.adrianlevy

 

Most damning and politically sensitive of all is a letter, obtained by Zumwalt, from Dr James Clary, a military scientist who designed the spray tanks for Ranch Hand. Writing in 1988 to a member of Congress investigating Agent Orange, Clary admitted: "When we initiated the herbicide programme in the 1960s, we were aware of the potential for damage due to dioxin contamination in the herbicide. We were even aware that the military formulation had a higher dioxin concentration than the civilian version, due to the lower cost and speed of manufacture. However, because the material was to be used on the enemy, none of us were overly concerned."

 

They didn't purposefully slaughter Vietnamese people with chemical warfare. But they disregarded the potential carnage, because Vietnamese to the US military are like worthless ants that you can step on. Completely ignoring someones worth as a human being might be even more morally disturbing than purposefuly murdering someone.

Colonisation isn't the same as genocide. The vast majority of deaths were due to disease. Calling what happened to Native Americans in the centuries following Columbus' arrival a genocide is nothing but meaningless cheap rhetoric. Also what Otter said in his first paragraph. Self flaggelating ourselves over every past indiscretion our countries are responsible for and which we had no control over is ridiculous.

 

Well, most credible academics agree that Columbus was a horrific genocidal murderer. And in general, apart from the deaths by diseases Europeans brought along, millions of native Americans were slaughtered, most likely a multiplication of the amount of Holocaust victims. David Stannard has done respected work on this in his book 'American Holocaust' (Oxford University Press, 1992).

 

"Native" -- Man, that's such a self-righteous term. Meanwhile nobody knows if the tribes were native to the land or whether they took it from somebody else after they emigrated from Asia. Maybe the tribes drove off and slaughtered the Vikings who were there first -- but at the very least they took the land away from the animals that were already there.

 

Is this supposed to be a joke? Native Americans didn't destroy nature on a massive scale as happened after colonialism, like the eradication of the American buffalo. As far as I know, Native Americans lived sustainably in harmony with nature, and if you'd have evidence against it I'd be interested.

 

And if you think Vikings even existed when Asian settlers first went to America, then you've got a really bad sense of historical timelines. But then again, let's hope you were joking.

Edited by Eutyphro

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El Dildo

this thread sucks and this topic is not worth debating.

 

hypocrisy much?

lack of perspective much?

 

the US did not invent colonial genocide.

we were actually one of the last nations to practice the tactic on such a scale. this is just how the world functioned up until the advent of the modern age. stronger people discover weaker people and obliterate/assimilate them until someone else comes along and repeats the process. if we can't celebrate July 4th then virtually every other country on Earth has to stop celebrating their own independence. there's maybe like a handful of societies who can honestly claim they never committed some kind of atrocity during the unification process of their native lands.

 

get over it...

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Dingdongs

there's maybe like a handful of societies who can honestly claim they never committed some kind of atrocity during the unification process of their native lands.

I can't think of a single one...

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El Dildo

well like, maybe some small tribal community villages in the middle of some forest somewhere.

that's about it.

 

and even then probably not :lol:

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Dingdongs

well like, maybe some small tribal community villages in the middle of some forest somewhere.

that's about it.

 

and even then probably not :lol:

We Gotta find some way to be overly cynical and unnecessarily critical about developed western country's histories somehow man... Edited by Irviding

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Share Sharqi

 

well like, maybe some small tribal community villages in the middle of some forest somewhere.

that's about it.

 

and even then probably not :lol:

We Gotta find some way to be overly cynical and unnecessarily critical about developed western country's histories somehow man...

 

Because of course, subjecting a country to scrutiny for its history of slavery, segregation, economic imprisonment, forcible relocation or slaughter of native tribes-people and the use of chemical and nuclear WMD's against countries you didn't even need to be fighting in the first place - to think any of these things are significant and worth remembering is such an absurd notion!

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GTA_stu

Perhaps you're confusing policy driven attempts at genocide (which I am not arguing happened) with events like this which certainly are examples of genocidal practices and ideologies by prominent historical figures central to the founding of the Good Ol' US of A.

 

Furthermore - why is genocide the sticking point here? Really?

I mean, I guess it's nice to say 'sure, we enslaved millions, tortured enemies, bombed schools and children, but we sure never genocided anyone' but it doesn't really ring true. Or f*cking matter, really - is genocide somehow worse than slavery? Ask a slave next time you see one.

 

My central point is that every nation has a dark history and that we ought to acknowledge it - while keeping our chins up for the future.

 

You can't just tack on some extra charges to a record just because it's already bad. Genocide is the sticking point because it's completely untrue, Europeans didn't deliberately cause and were not directly responsible for the deaths of 80-90-95% whatever the exact figure may be, of the indigenous peoples in the Americas. The overwhelming majority died from disease without even coming into contact with Europeans. It's just plain wrong to act like we personally massacred them all and wanted to eradicate them as a people or peoples.

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Eutyphro

Because of course, subjecting a country to scrutiny for its history of slavery, segregation, economic imprisonment, forcible relocation or slaughter of native tribes-people and the use of chemical and nuclear WMD's against countries you didn't even need to be fighting in the first place - to think any of these things are significant and worth remembering is such an absurd notion!

 

Even more absurd is refusing to celebrate these things.

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Otter

Perhaps it's your definition of genocide, Stu, that needs to be addressed. Defend, for me, the Trail of Tears? Or, up north here, MacDonald starving populations to death to make way for settlers?

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