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Arsen Vitiuk

Grand Theft Auto III Chain Game Lounge

Recommended Posts

GTAKid667
Posted (edited)

Chain Game Announcement!


New GTAForums Experience
Following the recent period of maintenance, I'd like to welcome all players of the Chain Game to a new GTAForums Experience. The forum software has been upgraded bringing a new look, new features and an enhanced experience for all members of the website on all devices. An Official Announcement from the GTAForums Staff Team regarding the Forum Software Upgrade can be found here, which I advise anyone interested in knowing more about the changes to read. 

There have been no changes to the forum layout, or any of the threads on the forum so you should still easily be able to find the latest Chain Game Threads where you'd expect them to be but you may find that certain settings for your member profile and the experience of posting and editing in Chain Game Threads are slightly different. It may take a little while for you to get completely comfortable with using the new experience, but be assured that participating in the Chain Game is as familiar as it has ever been, and soon enough we'll all be used to the new forum!

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the GTAForums Administrators for the continuous development of GTAForums, and the time they put into maintainting the website, which has served as the platform for Chain Game Rounds for over 10 Years. 

 

Opening Post Updates
The Chain Game Opening Posts are to receive minor updates before the next round of the game to once again provide some greater clarity and add a few new sections that will detail the Chain Game's Official Stance on some particular issues that have been discussed by players, including the use of On Mission Flag Manipulation and the Replay Feature. There will also be updates to the Special Vehicle List Terminology, the Special Thanks List and some additional corrections made to the Chain Game Players List as well as minor corrections and changes across the entire set of Opening Posts.

Regular Players aren't expected to read through the entire set of rules again, as there have only been minor changes, and are instead suggested to read any new sections that have been added.

 

Rule Change - Use of the Replay Feature
With the updates to the Chain Game Opening Posts, we're introducing a new Chain Game Rule regarding the use of the Replay Feature that will affect both the Grand Theft Auto III and GTA Vice City Chain Game with immediate effect. 

 

We've spent some time over the last few months discussing the Replay Feature that is present in both Grand Theft Auto III and GTA Vice City and investigating the possibilities of its uses, and have requested Player Feedback to determine whether or not the Replay Feature is used during Chain Game Turns and in what way it is used. It has become clear that the Replay Feature can be abused in a wide variety of ways and produce outcomes that are not intended to be experienced in vanilla gameplay. The Chain Game traditionally has always been against the use of any form of cheats and modifications during gameplay that can alter the game from its intended state, alter statistical information that is used for the Chain Game Index, and provide a way of instantly passing missions or any other activity that is required for 100% Completion in the game. Feedback suggested that no player in the game uses the Replay Feature for its intended purpose and instead rely on it for many of the possible exploits and as a form of 'Mission Strategy', using the outcome of such exploits for their own benefit in missions and side missions.

 

After careful consideration taking into account all feedback that we received as well as looking into the capabilities of abusing the Replay Feature, we have decided that from this point forward, that use of the Replay Feature is not allowed during Chain Game Turns for the use of exploitation and as a form of Mission Strategy. This specifcally dictates that the Replay Feature should not be used at all during any Mission, Side Mission or other 100% Game Requirement, including Firefighter which is the most popular use of the feature. While some players may be disappointed that this rule has been brought into place, I'm sure players will agree that the use of such of a feature to give any player an advantage over another player, to exploit statistical data or to instantly pass a mission, is not fair and should not be allowed. However, as with our No Failure Rule, we will allow for Replays to be used for Special Vehicle Collection where they are required in the method of collection, but outside of this players should not use the Replay Feature during any Mission or Side Mission.

 

We're mindful that there is a possibility that some players will want to use the Replay Feature for the intended purpose of capturing recent gameplay footage and so outside of Missions and Side Missions we will continue to allow the use of replays provided that they are not used to directly exploit a Mission or Side Mission, but we strongly suggest that players keep their use of the feature to a minimum. 

I'd like to thank iguaan, Johan, MrMateczko, NABN00B, NightMARE, oscareczek, Parik, Sidaredd, TheAgniesia22, thehambone and Veigar for their feedback on the Replay Feature and their opinions on the proposed Rule Change.

 

An Extended Break
Due to the Forum Maintenance taking place this week and completing a major upgrade to a new software version, the Chain Game Staff will now need to take time to work on adapting the Opening Posts and features of the Chain Game to be compatible with changes introduced in the software. During this time, we'll also be focusing on providing updates to the Chain Game Design and ensuring that the Chain Game provides the best experience possible for players upon return of Chain Game Rounds.

 

Unfortunately this does mean that we will have to extend our current break from rounds while work on the Chain Game is completed, and while I understand some players may find this news disappointing, be assured that the Chain Game Staff will be working hard and spending much of their own time working to complete all of the necessary updates as quick as possible so that Chain Game Rounds can get back to being launched in the near future. Currently, there is not an estimation on how long the updates will take, but we'll be sure to update everyone once we are ready to launch rounds again.

 

Being Considerate to Other Players
I'd like to take the opportunity to also discuss today the Chain Game as a concept and a reminder for all players of what the purpose of the Chain Game is. Since 2010, the Grand Theft Auto III Chain Game has had a total of 97 Players participating in 88 Regular Rounds and 8 Starter Save Rounds in a collaborative attempt to complete Grand Theft Auto III to 100% or produce a Starter Save. The Chain Game is, and always has been, about the community and the idea of a range of players all coming together and participating in rounds together each contributing to the Chain Game Goal outlined in the Opening Posts. However, every now and then we encounter a particular type of behaviour from certain players that makes me think the community aspect isn't respected or understood clearly enough, and I feel that the Chain Game Index has sent the wrong message about what the Chain Game is really about.

 

The Chain Game is not, and never will be, a competition. A players participation in a round should be because they enjoy the game, the community and want to contribute to the end goal. I have on numerous occasions during my leadership of the game noticed a particular trend that pops up every once in a while where a player or group of players try to complete a mass percentage of the game themselves during a round, or complete a mass number of turns for what can easily assumed to be for their own gain in the Chain Game Statistics, Chain Game Index or to show off their own personal skill. I'd like to particularly draw attention to two Chain Game Records that I feel send a particularly wrong message, "Highest Total Percentage from a Player in a Chain Game Round" and "Highest Average Percentage from a Player in a Chain Game Round". While I understand the enjoyment that some players may have from trying to set records for the Chain Game Index, I do not feel that aiming to set these particular records are often best for the game. We've had players complete turns very early in the game up to a total of 40%, and then throughout the round participating regularly to exceed 60% or even as high as 70%. At this point, I feel that the amount completed is excessive and to the point it takes away from the team aspect of the game entirely - If your interest is to complete 70% of the game, you'd be better playing the game yourself in a personal playthrough.

 

I'd also like to draw attention to the habit of jumping to take the first or last turn in the game. I respect that some players like to take the first or last turn, but I feel that doing it consecutively across a large number of rounds also takes away from the team aspect of the game, because ultimately you're preventing anyone else from being able to take those turns.

 

Looking at both issues together, it is not a problem if a player wants to complete a larger turn within reason once in a while and also not a problem for players to take the first or last turn of the game themselves. The issue tends to be that the same players are either taking the same turns or completing the majority of the game themselves in a large consecutive number of rounds. I feel that when a player does this, particularly in a case of taking the first turn for a large consecutive number of rounds and completing the same 30% of content in those rounds, it isn't fair on other players. I like to use the analogy of either Import/Export or Unique Stunt Jumps, both of which contribute a high game percentage. If Player A takes the first turn in 10 Consecutive Rounds, which may last as long as 5 or 6 months of the year, and completes a 30% Turn each time completing Import/Export and Unique Stunt Jumps every single time, then Players B, C, D and any other player interested in participating lose the chance to ever complete these missions in a Chain Game Round. If then all Side Missions are cleared out in the first few turns, the players potentially never get to do more than mission.

 

I'd just like to remind players that the Chain Game is about everybody and the entire community, and that some players will want to get the opportunity to take the first or last turn once in a while, or get the opportunity to complete Side Missions. I'd like to gently suggest that all players ensure they are being considerate to other players when taking turns - If you've recently taken the first or last turn in a Chain Game or recently completed a large turn doing the same missions as you may have done the previous round, consider that somebody else might want to do them and try and incorporate more variety into your turns. While it is also suggested that certain Side Missions are completed earlier on in the game, there isn't always a need to get them out of the way in a couple of turns.

 

I do not want to discourage players from playing however, and simply share these thoughts now as a gentle suggestion. I want players of the Chain Game to have as much freedom as possible during Chain Game Rounds as has always been the case, but should this become a serious issue it is likely that Chain Game Rules including Turn Time Limits and Wait Rules will have to be adjusted to reflect the change in player behaviour. I feel this is a particularly important point not only for Regular Rounds, but also as we approach Special Rounds that will have higher demand from a wider range of players. 

 

Plans for the Future
I'd like to thank all players for reading and for their continued dedication and support to the Chain Game. We've had a successful start to 2018 for the game and have already had some new features and special rounds to participate in such as the Chain Game Factions Event back at the start of the year and the launch of a Grand Theft Auto IV Chain Game more recently. There's still a lot to look forward to across the summer months and towards the end of the year, particularly for both the Grand Theft Auto III and GTA Vice City Chain Games which are both expected to reach Special Milestone Rounds that we hope all players of both games will be around to participate in and join in with the celebrations. We're also continuing to work behind the scenes to bring even more content to the Chain Game and updates to our Chain Game Threads around GTAForums that we hope to share with you as soon as we can.

 

Edited by GTAKid667

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GTAKid667


Chain Game Announcement!


The Chain Game Returns!
We'd like to thank all players of the Chain Game for their continued patience while there has been a break from Chain Game Rounds over the past few weeks. It's not often that we decide to take such long breaks, and this has been the first time we have done so in at least a year. 


We've spent this time both as a break from the workload required to maintain the Chain Game, but also to work on some new features and updates to the Chain Game. As mentioned in the previous Chain Game Announcement, there have been some improvements made to the Chain Game Opening Posts as well as the introduction of a rule preventing the usage of replays as Mission Strategy.


Tomorrow, 21st June, marks the first day of Summer in the Northern Hemisphere and to mark the occasion we're happy to announce that our break period is officially coming to an end and from tomorrow we'll be getting back into the action with a new round of the Grand Theft Auto III Chain Game.


As an added bonus, we're going to be running back to back rounds of the Grand Theft Auto III Chain Game over at least the following month, meaning that there will always be an opportunity to get involved and play, with there always being a round of the Grand Theft Auto III Chain Game up and available to play.


We're still working on a few sections of the Opening Posts which aren't quite ready, so you may not yet be able to find everything that has been previously mentioned, but we didn't want to let this get in the way of launching a new Chain Game Round when we're otherwise ready to go. We'll be continuing to update the design throughout the duration of the round so it's normal if you see something missing. As always though, if you spot a mistake with something that is there or something that doesn't look right, feel free to let us know about it.


The GTA Vice City Chain Game will return in due course, and stay tuned for more information on a future round of the Grand Theft Auto IV Chain Game.


I hope that all players enjoy getting back into playing the Chain Game!


Chain Game Development
One of the aspects of the Chain Game that is often not publicly discussed is the workload that the Chain Game Staff take on by running the various Chain Games across the forum, and so there hasn't ever been a clear insight into what gets done when we're not playing rounds or behind closed doors.


Since I took over as Chain Game Chief back in 2013, I've watched the Chain Game continue to develop and expand. We've been able to take the game from what was a basic concept and turn it into a much bigger community, something that was first started by Arsen Vitiuk when the Chain Game first launched and has continued to develop as time has progressed. Between us all, we've not only become a much stronger community but we've allowed ideas that were once dreams become a reality - Projects like the Chain Game Index, Statistical Data of the Chain Game Rounds, Starter Save and Generated Vehicle Round improvements, updates to our Opening Posts and Multiplayer Events outside of Rounds. Such ideas require a fair amount of work to be completed, and maintained regularly following round completion, for such ideas to be possible. 


To give a brief insight - When we set up a Chain Game Round, we first need to update our Statistical Documentation to ensure that we've accounted for all Player Turns in previous rounds, we need to ensure that the Opening Posts are ready for publishing, and then we need to post the round. During the round, three lists are updated as often as possible which can often be time consuming in itself with there being a large amount to do in the game and a large amount being completed in turns, particularly when rounds are progressing fast. Chain Games like the Grand Theft Auto III Chain Game also require the Liberty Tree to receive regular updates determined on game completion. Following a rounds completion, we need to ensure the lists are completed and accurate. We then gather statistical information of all lists for use in the Chain Game Index and Records, calculate the Chain Game Statistics and Official Round time and post the completion information. We've often already started the next round while this is taking place, as our commitment has always been to get the rounds out and available to play before features like the Chain Game Index are updated.


All of what I mention above only scratches the surface of what the Chain Game Staff does on a regular basis, which can be as often as several times a week in a period of high activity. We have many additional projects on the side that we've been working towards, some new and exciting for future Chain Game Rounds and a rather extensive Chain Game Restoration Project to restore past round threads that have been damaged.


The Chain Game has become much more complex, and there are only three of us. It's also important to consider that there are three Chain Games and occasionally they run alongside each other, which can be up to triple the same workload. I find it quite hurtful when I hear accusations of the Staff being "lazy" or not listening to player requests, whether said in a joke context or not. We're only human, we have real life commitments and we can't spend every moment of our time working on ensuring everything is perfect.


We do the best we can, and we know that many players support and respect this, and in case unclear I'd like to assure everybody - Our commitment has always been to provide the best Chain Game Experience we possibly can, we've put in hundreds of ours and will continue to do so to ensure that everyone is happy and the games are running as well as they can.


The Hunt for Save Files
Some players may be aware that since Round 29 we've been collecting the 100% Save File at the end of every Chain Game Round and include these as part of a Save File Collection hosted on GTAGarage. We've always been interested in collecting as many Save Files from the history of the Chain Game as we can, including regular turn saves, and so have a request which is aimed more towards longer term players of the Chain Game and owners of Grand Theft Auto III and Vice City.


If you're like me (I don't endorse being like me), you might be the kind of person to have files on your computer you probably haven't even seen in 5 years, let alone decided to interact with, and amongst these can often be old save files randomly laying about. You probably don't even know they are there, I typically overwrite all of my Chain Game Turn Save Files but following a recent conversation, I decided to do some digging through my old files and found a small collection of old Chain Game Turn Saves from Rounds as old as Round 26!


We'd like to continue expanding our collection of old Chain Game Turn Saves if at all possible, and ask that if any past or present player finds the time to have a search around their old files, have a look out for any old GTA III and Vice City Save Files and feel free to send them our way - It could just be that you've been holding on to a piece of Chain Game History and didn't even know about it!


I hope all players have a great day, a great summer, and enjoy participating in the Chain Game!

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GTA_CAT

Hell wish I could play this

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TubewayArmy

Hello, there is nothing stopping you from participating. You just need copy of GTA III.

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Johan

Why did the last round go past 100%? Never seen that in the 30+ rounds I've played

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SorveteQuente

 

4 minutes ago, Johan said:

Why did the last round go past 100%? Never seen that in the 30+ rounds I've played

TubewayArmy completed Paramedic several times, that glitched out the game's progress counting.

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GTAKid667

In the previous round of the Chain Game, Paramedic was completed multiple times in order to assess how the game percentage was affected by repeated completions of the side mission which led to an overall completion percentage at the end of the round of 103.25%. Several players have commented on the increase in completion percentage with varying viewpoints and it has led to a discussion of whether or not we should continue to allow multiple completions of Paramedic in future rounds of the game to intentionally affect the overall game completion percentage and push Chain Game Rounds above 100% at the end of the round.


We'd like to hear from as many players of the Chain Game as possible to help inform our decision. We've added a poll to the Chain Game Lounge that we'd like as many participants of the Grand Theft Auto III Chain Game to vote in to share their opinion on whether Paramedic should be allowed to completed multiple times in future Chain Game Rounds.


Over the course of Round 93 we will also be contacting several players to receive more detailed feedback, and anyone who wishes to share their feedback is welcome to contact 123robot or GTAKid667 privately or share their opinion here in the Lounge. It is strongly suggested that for Round 93 Paramedic is not completed more than once while we make an overall decision on the matter, so that we aim for 100% Completion at the end of the round.


Thanks in advance for your feedback, and continuing to participate in the Chain Game :)

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Dealux

I wasn't aware that replay glitches weren't allowed. Honestly, this rule seems arbitrary. It's not a game breaking glitch if used properly (i.e. during rampages and Firefighter, as opposed to "duping", which would result in stuck mission text or blips on map).

 

By the same logic, using any glitches to gain access to locked areas is also akin to cheating or not playing the game as intended. I mean as long as anyone has access to info on how to perform these glitches that don't ruin the save file then I fail to see how it would be unfair for other players. You either use these glitches or you don't. It's personal preference.

 

I didn't think that I would say this but I think I'm done with the Chain Game.

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GTAKid667
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Dealux said:

I wasn't aware that replay glitches weren't allowed. Honestly, this rule seems arbitrary. It's not a game breaking glitch if used properly (i.e. during rampages and Firefighter, as opposed to "duping", which would result in stuck mission text or blips on map).

 

By the same logic, using any glitches to gain access to locked areas is also akin to cheating or not playing the game as intended. I mean as long as anyone has access to info on how to perform these glitches that don't ruin the save file then I fail to see how it would be unfair for other players. You either use these glitches or you don't. It's personal preference.

We've recently decided to disallow the use of replays during Missions and Side Missions following a detailed discussion amongst the Staff Team and after receiving detailed feedback from roughly 15 players and followers of the Chain Game.


The Chain Game has always had a strict view on Cheats and Modifications, disallowing any use of them during Chain Game turns as they can cause adverse affects to the Save File and provide players easier access to rewards as well as taking any aspect of challenge out of the game by providing the player with benefits that would otherwise not be naturally obtainable in a regular playthrough of Grand Theft Auto III.


I do not personally agree that this is comparable to either Mission Duplication or, particularly, the ability to cross islands. There are multiple methods of being able to cross over to another island in the game, one of which is by jumping over the Callahan Bridge that would not require the use of any cheats, glitches, modifications or other alternative methods that would be outside of 'intended play', yet even factoring in the glitches that are possible, none of them are known to cause any long lasting or save file altering effects, or benefits to the player that could not be obtained by crossing to another island by jumping the bridge.


The Replay Feature would have originally been intended by Rockstar to be used only for viewing recent gameplay. However, over time there have been multiple exploits devised from the use of replays that cause effects comparable to cheating. The ability to instantly pass Firefighter is something that would be comparable to using a Modification or Save File Editor to instantly pass the mission in the save, and the same would be said for Rampages which also then give you additional ammo that could be just as easily generated using a cheat code or trainer. There are also additional uses of the Replay Feature that have the potential to statistically alter the save file and produce cheat-like effects to a Chain Game Save File, which for a game that has always had a strict No Cheats or Modifications policy, would in itself be a double standard to allow such a method to be used freely in Chain Game Turns.


In mind that there may be players who wish to use replays for their intentional purpose, we still continue to allow the use of the Replay Feature and exploitations of it outside of Missions and Side Missions where they cannot cause an adverse effect to the save file, meaning it is still possible to use several of the common exploits. It is also still allowed to use replays as a method of Special Vehicle Collecting, in the same way Mission Failure and the use of Mission Duplication which does not result in any undesirable side effects, are also allowed for the same purpose.


We're always open to hear the thoughts of all Chain Game Players on our current rules and intend to shape the game based on the feedback we receive so that we can create a game that is enjoyed by as many players and possible, and have a set of rules that the majority of players are happy with and can agree to. In the research we undertook before implementing this rule change, the majority of people we contacted were either in favour of the rule or said that they would not be affected by it leading us to decide to implement the rule in the latest rounds. It would seem that of a whole Chain Game Round, this rule is only likely to affect the method that Firefighter is completed and prevent the use of replays in Rampages to gain additional ammunition, which I would consider to be a fairly minor affect. 


There may be some players who disagree with the rule and that is understandable, it is hard when you run a community of 20+ regular participants to keep everyone happy, but we have done what we felt was the best decision to have made in the circumstances. It is not expected of you, or anyone who disagrees in the rule, to complete Firefighter or Rampages and you're more than welcome to leave those down to other players if you do not feel that they are something you want to complete without the use of replays.


This is something that will also be true of the new suggestion that Paramedic should only be completed once within a Chain Game Round, there may be players that disagree with it but statistically, Paramedic has never been completed more than once in all 91 Regular Rounds and 8 Starter Save Rounds preceding Round 92, and the majority of players have so far been in favour of disallowing the repetition of it to keep the statistics clean.

 

1 hour ago, Dealux said:

I didn't think that I would say this but I think I'm done with the Chain Game.

I find this to be an extremely disappointing comment for someone that has played and supported the game for so long, both as a long term player and a previous member of Chain Game Staff, and I'm sorry that this rule change has led you to feel that way.

Edited by GTAKid667

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Dealux
1 hour ago, GTAKid667 said:

I do not personally agree that this is comparable to either Mission Duplication or, particularly, the ability to cross islands. There are multiple methods of being able to cross over to another island in the game, one of which is by jumping over the Callahan Bridge that would not require the use of any cheats, glitches, modifications or other alternative methods that would be outside of 'intended play', yet even factoring in the glitches that are possible, none of them are known to cause any long lasting or save file altering effects, or benefits to the player that could not be obtained by crossing to another island by jumping the bridge.


The Replay Feature would have originally been intended by Rockstar to be used only for viewing recent gameplay. However, over time there have been multiple exploits devised from the use of replays that cause effects comparable to cheating. The ability to instantly pass Firefighter is something that would be comparable to using a Modification or Save File Editor to instantly pass the mission in the save, and the same would be said for Rampages which also then give you additional ammo that could be just as easily generated using a cheat code or trainer. There are also additional uses of the Replay Feature that have the potential to statistically alter the save file and produce cheat-like effects to a Chain Game Save File, which for a game that has always had a strict No Cheats or Modifications policy, would in itself be a double standard to allow such a method to be used freely in Chain Game Turns.


In mind that there may be players who wish to use replays for their intentional purpose, we still continue to allow the use of the Replay Feature and exploitations of it outside of Missions and Side Missions where they cannot cause an adverse effect to the save file, meaning it is still possible to use several of the common exploits. It is also still allowed to use replays as a method of Special Vehicle Collecting, in the same way Mission Failure and the use of Mission Duplication which does not result in any undesirable side effects, are also allowed for the same purpose.


We're always open to hear the thoughts of all Chain Game Players on our current rules and intend to shape the game based on the feedback we receive so that we can create a game that is enjoyed by as many players and possible, and have a set of rules that the majority of players are happy with and can agree to. In the research we undertook before implementing this rule change, the majority of people we contacted were either in favour of the rule or said that they would not be affected by it leading us to decide to implement the rule in the latest rounds. It would seem that of a whole Chain Game Round, this rule is only likely to affect the method that Firefighter is completed and prevent the use of replays in Rampages to gain additional ammunition, which I would consider to be a fairly minor affect. 


There may be some players who disagree with the rule and that is understandable, it is hard when you run a community of 20+ regular participants to keep everyone happy, but we have done what we felt was the best decision to have made in the circumstances. It is not expected of you, or anyone who disagrees in the rule, to complete Firefighter or Rampages and you're more than welcome to leave those down to other players if you do not feel that they are something you want to complete without the use of replays.

 

I find this to be an extremely disappointing comment for someone that has played and supported the game for so long, both as a long term player and a previous member of Chain Game Staff, and I'm sorry that this rule change has led you to feel that way.

I was making the opposite distinction. "Duping" is a technique used by speedrunners to trigger two missions (side mission + main mission) at the same time to speed up certain parts of the game or insta-pass certain story missions. That does actually glitch the save file (e.g. you get stuck blips, or permanent side mission text on screen) but using the replay feature during rampages and firefighter is not comparable to duping or cheating or using trainers in my opinion. It does NOT affect the save file in any way AFAIK and neither does it affect the stats. It is a glitch like any other glitch.

 

That's irrelevant since glitches like the crusher glitch are still allowed, which is not the way R* intended you to use the crusher and other parts of the game involved in the glitch. What about flying the Dodo then? R* said it themselves, the ability to fly it is in itself a glitch. They did not intent to make it flyable. The comparisons with save editing and the use of trainers isn't really helping your case either. You can still manually increase your ammo count by picking up the weapons at the safe houses. It would take long but it is doable. The reason fires are put out during replays is that the game stops cars from burning during replays (presumably to prevent you from dying if any cars would explode near the player during a replay). This has nothing to do with cheating. It is the way the game was coded. This exploit does not affect the game in any way either.

 

I mean you should have instead consulted some people who have intimate knowledge of the game's code and how it works (e.g. spaceeinstein) if you were actually worried that any of these glitches could bug the game.

 

Overly strict rules (and especially arbitrary ones) are the killer of all fun. They are the thing that ruins any community.

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TubewayArmy

So... regarding the Paramedic situation in Round 92.

It all started as small experiment. I was always wondering what happens if you do Paramedic more than once. I was secretely hoping that if you do it for the second time, it will let you go over level 12.

As I found out, it wasn't true, it always stops when you finish Level 12. When checking stats, I noticed unexpectedly high increase of Percentage. In my first turn, I've finished Paramedic three times and strangely one gave +0.65%, second +1.91% and third +0.64%.

 

Second and third turn, it gave again around +0.65% for each completition. 

 

I didn't know if we will exceed 100% when we finish the game, there was always possibility that the game will just stop adding % after reach 100%.

 

Sorry for causing this situation. I will make sure to do any further testing like this outside of the Chain Game.

 

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GTAKid667
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Dealux said:

I was making the opposite distinction. "Duping" is a technique used by speedrunners to trigger two missions (side mission + main mission) at the same time to speed up certain parts of the game or insta-pass certain story missions. That does actually glitch the save file (e.g. you get stuck blips, or permanent side mission text on screen) but using the replay feature during rampages and firefighter is not comparable to duping or cheating or using trainers in my opinion. It does NOT affect the save file in any way AFAIK and neither does it affect the stats. It is a glitch like any other glitch.

 

That's irrelevant since glitches like the crusher glitch are still allowed, which is not the way R* intended you to use the crusher and other parts of the game involved in the glitch. What about flying the Dodo then? R* said it themselves, the ability to fly it is in itself a glitch. They did not intent to make it flyable. The comparisons with save editing and the use of trainers isn't really helping your case either. You can still manually increase your ammo count by picking up the weapons at the safe houses. It would take long but it is doable. The reason fires are put out during replays is that the game stops cars from burning during replays (presumably to prevent you from dying if any cars would explode near the player during a replay). This has nothing to do with cheating. It is the way the game was coded. This exploit does not affect the game in any way either.

 

I mean you should have instead consulted some people who have intimate knowledge of the game's code and how it works (e.g. spaceeinstein) if you were actually worried that any of these glitches could bug the game.

 

Overly strict rules (and especially arbitrary ones) are the killer of all fun. They are the thing that ruins any community.

I'm aware of the process of duplicating missions but as with replays, there are several variations of this and not all of which have a permanent affect on the Save File. Two of the possible uses of duplicating missions, one of which you've mentioned heavily, are to instapass missions and to collect certain special vehicles that are otherwise unobtainable. It does not take a lot of research to see that not every use of it leaves a permanent side effect in the save file, and the Chain Game's stance on such a situation remains that duplication can be used if the player has the intention of collecting special vehicles that do not cause permanent blips or any other undesirable effect to the save file.


However, this has nothing to do with the area of discussion we're looking at and I fail to see how it is in any way relevant, as I have already stated it is not comparable to the use of replays. You could justify under the same argument that there are cheat codes and modifications that may not have an effect on the save file, yet they are also not allowed to be used aside from the exceptions that we've listed in the Opening Posts.


I don't like the hostile attitude that is coming across in your message, and it would seem to me that you have done virtually no research to back up any of the claims you're trying to make. The Chain Game Staff team have spent a lot of time looking into the various uses of replays, some of them do affect statistics, some of them do cause unwanted side effects to the save file and some of them are used for the purpose of instantly passing missions such as Firefighter, which would be the same as using cheats, modifications or any other form of save file editing to pass the mission. You have repeatedly mentioned how you do not believe that there is an effect, but we have taken the time to actually investigate the situation as opposed to making assumptions. There wasn't a need to contact any 'specialist' for the matter as I was well aware of the uses of the replay feature that you clearly are unaware of.


While I would agree that the crusher glitch is not an intended feature of the game, it does not have any overall effect on the save file and can't be used to instapass a mission or gain any other additional benefit outside of creating a DP Vehicle, which would not be a valid argument in this case as both replays and mission duplication are still allowed for the purpose of collecting Special Vehicles.

 

Your argument about the Dodo makes little sense, so I have very little to say in response to that. It not only has nothing to do with the discussion, and has no affect on the save file at all, but I'd be sceptical to believe that because a member of staff at Rockstar wrote a sentence saying it wasn't intended to fly, it is the absolute truth. They say in the same article you're referring to that School Buses were "nonsense" yet you'll be able to find a vehicle that looks very similar to a School Bus Render on one of their own websites and there are other online articles from the pre-release era of III that have suggested it could have been an inclusion in the game.


If the main substance of your argument is "the way it was coded", you could easily say that cheats should be allowed because they were coded into the game, and that there shouldn't be an issue with being busted or wasted during your turn or an issue if you repeatedly fail missions, yet for several years you happily participated in the Chain Game accepting those rules for what they were. 


I also don't think that your suggestion my comparison of save editing 'is not helping my case' because you can collect weapons at safehouses. In this scenario, one method is allowed and the other isn't and you seemingly have no issue. However, you can complete Firefighter without replays and it would take longer but is easily doable...

 

We ultimately chose to implement the rule based on a wide range of player feedback and personal research that we took time conducting, it was hardly 'arbitrary'.  As I mentioned in my previous post, the majority of players that are currently playing the Chain Game were either in favour of the rule being implemented or were indifferent. It was our responsibility to make a decision that we felt would best represent the player base and had we decided to continue with allowing replays, knowing the side effects that can be caused, we wouldn't be listening to our community. You act as if such a minor change in the rules has the potential to ruin the Chain Game Community without realising that the very community you talk about were the ones who were asked and consulted throughout the entire process.


We intend to make the Chain Game a positive and fun experience for as many players as we can and we continually listen to the feedback that is given to us. Any player or member of the community is welcome to come to us with feedback at any time if they are unhappy, as you have done, and we take all comments seriously and look into doing what we can. There wouldn't be a Chain Game here today had it not been for the participants and we're lucky to still have a very active game running 8 years since the game began and nearly 17 since Grand Theft Auto III was first released. If the players we had asked were mostly in favour of keeping replays, it would have been a consideration to have not implemented such a rule, in the same way that if the majority of players were to come to us and say that they did not like the implementation of the rule, it would become a strong consideration to remove or adjust it.


However, I will mention again, that the players were mostly in favour of the rule and going against that would have been going against what the majority of our players wanted. I'm really sorry that you feel the way you do, I'll once again state that there is no obligation for you to complete either Rampages or Firefighter in your turn if you're unhappy that you will be unable to use replays. I think it'd be a shame for you to decide to leave over what I would consider to be a minor rule change, but at the moment this is the rule that is in play and is what all participants are expected to follow.

Edited by GTAKid667

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Dealux
Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, GTAKid667 said:

I'm aware of the process of duplicating missions but as with replays, there are several variations of this and not all of which have a permanent affect on the Save File. Two of the possible uses of duplicating missions, one of which you've mentioned heavily, are to instapass missions and to collect certain special vehicles that are otherwise unobtainable.

 

I don't like the hostile attitude that is coming across in your message, and it would seem to me that you have done virtually no research to back up any of the claims you're trying to make. The Chain Game Staff team have spent a lot of time looking into the various uses of replays, some of them do affect statistics, some of them do cause unwanted side effects to the save file and some of them are used for the purpose of instantly passing missions such as Firefighter, which would be the same as using cheats, modifications or any other form of save file editing to pass the mission. You have repeatedly mentioned how you do not believe that there is an effect, but we have taken the time to actually investigate the situation as opposed to making assumptions. There wasn't a need to contact any 'specialist' for the matter as I was well aware of the uses of the replay feature that you clearly are unaware of.


While I would agree that the crusher glitch is not an intended feature of the game, it does not have any overall effect on the save file and can't be used to instapass a mission or gain any other additional benefit outside of creating a DP Vehicle, which would not be a valid argument in this case as both replays and mission duplication are still allowed for the purpose of collecting Special Vehicles.

 

If the main substance of your argument is "the way it was coded", you could easily say that cheats should be allowed because they were coded into the game, and that there shouldn't be an issue with being busted or wasted during your turn or an issue if you repeatedly fail missions, yet for several years you happily participated in the Chain Game accepting those rules for what they were. 


I also don't think that your suggestion my comparison of save editing 'is not helping my case' because you can collect weapons at safehouses. In this scenario, one method is allowed and the other isn't and you seemingly have no issue. However, you can complete Firefighter without replays and it would take longer but is easily doable...

 

We ultimately chose to implement the rule based on a wide range of player feedback and personal research that we took time conducting, it was hardly 'arbitrary'.  As I mentioned in my previous post, the majority of players that are currently playing the Chain Game were either in favour of the rule being implemented or were indifferent. It was our responsibility to make a decision that we felt would best represent the player base and had we decided to continue with allowing replays, knowing the side effects that can be caused, we wouldn't be listening to our community. You act as if such a minor change in the rules has the potential to ruin the Chain Game Community without realising that the very community you talk about were the ones who were asked and consulted throughout the entire process.


However, I will mention again, that the players were mostly in favour of the rule and going against that would have been going against what the majority of our players wanted. I'm really sorry that you feel the way you do, I'll once again state that there is no obligation for you to complete either Rampages or Firefighter in your turn if you're unhappy that you will be unable to use replays. I think it'd be a shame for you to decide to leave over what I would consider to be a minor rule change, but at the moment this is the rule that is in play and is what all participants are expected to follow.

Is this about "Salvatore Called a Meeting" or am I missing some other mission that requires this? I think we're talking about two different things or I'm missing something. In a speedrunning context, duping specifically involves a side mission or a rampage that can be triggered via replay or not. It doesn't always result in stuck text or blips but it does in some cases. I wasn't aware that you needed a speedrunning strat to collect a vehicle. The CP Stretch does not require duping. The old guides I remember for the other special cars did not require duping either.

 

It's hard to gauge the tone of a few paragraphs of text but you're the one that's being snarky now. I don't care enough about the Chain Game to get mad about this. You keep saying that these replay glitches are analogous to using cheats (as if that were self evident) but you haven't actually brought any arguments to back that up. It does sound hypocritical since other glitches are still allowed. I honestly don't see how special vehicles warrant any sort of exception. And the irony is that you actually admit that certain uses of replay glitches don't brick the game, so why are the other uses bad? Do you have any proof that my examples of using the replay glitch actually affects the game in any way? I'd be shocked if you did. Also, yes, someone who actually knows the game's code could tell you how these glitches might affect the game or not, better than just plain testing.

 

Wrong. The crusher glitch can actually brick the game and this was investigated a year or two back, although it was used to disable collision for the ambulance (to prevent gang members from destroying the car). Wildbrick did this and either the Taxi or Paramedic mission was permanently removed from the game. The way this happened was that he used the Caps-Lock key (i.e. side mission toggle key) instead of the "look behind" key. This seems to brick the game for some reason or perhaps it also has something to do with the timing of the release of the button(s) upon entering the ambulance. I take it that this specific use of the glitch is not banned yet and it is actually safe to do if you do it properly. But even the classic use of the glitch to make a vehicle DP is analogous to cheating (i.e. using a trainer) by your own logic and thus should be banned.

 

That's literally the only reason why any of these glitches are allowed or considered fair: because they are a feature of the game, regardless of what the developers intended.

 

And the issue with the analogy is that it is utterly false. You're merely comparing the results but the methods are completely different. No one is tampering with the save file or game's code at runtime (via a trainer) by using these glitches.

 

It is arbitrary because my uses of the replay glitch do not affect the game in any way. "Insta-passing" Firefighter still gives you 60 out of 60 fires extinguished stats and it does not affect the save file in any way. Same for the rampages.

 

It may seem minor to you but the fact that these glitches exist makes the game more fun. It's boring to only be able to complete missions in the "vanilla" way. We've all played the game that way a million times.

 

Edit: I actually don't care about Firefighter since it's such an insignificant part of the game but using the replay glitch to do rampages is somewhat useful in my opinion. That extra ammo you get is nice and arguably useful (it beats collecting that ammo manually).

Edited by Dealux

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GTAKid667
8 hours ago, Dealux said:

Is this about "Salvatore Called a Meeting" or am I missing some other mission that requires this? I think we're talking about two different things or I'm missing something. In a speedrunning context, duping specifically involves a side mission or a rampage that can be triggered via replay or not. It doesn't always result in stuck text or blips but it does in some cases. I wasn't aware that you needed a speedrunning strat to collect a vehicle. The CP Stretch does not require duping. The old guides I remember for the other special cars did not require duping either.

 

It's hard to gauge the tone of a few paragraphs of text but you're the one that's being snarky now. I don't care enough about the Chain Game to get mad about this. You keep saying that these replay glitches are analogous to using cheats (as if that were self evident) but you haven't actually brought any arguments to back that up. It does sound hypocritical since other glitches are still allowed. I honestly don't see how special vehicles warrant any sort of exception. And the irony is that you actually admit that certain uses of replay glitches don't brick the game, so why are the other uses bad? Do you have any proof that my examples of using the replay glitch actually affects the game in any way? I'd be shocked if you did. Also, yes, someone who actually knows the game's code could tell you how these glitches might affect the game or not, better than just plain testing.

 

Wrong. The crusher glitch can actually brick the game and this was investigated a year or two back, although it was used to disable collision for the ambulance (to prevent gang members from destroying the car). Wildbrick did this and either the Taxi or Paramedic mission was permanently removed from the game. The way this happened was that he used the Caps-Lock key (i.e. side mission toggle key) instead of the "look behind" key. This seems to brick the game for some reason or perhaps it also has something to do with the timing of the release of the button(s) upon entering the ambulance. I take it that this specific use of the glitch is not banned yet and it is actually safe to do if you do it properly. But even the classic use of the glitch to make a vehicle DP is analogous to cheating (i.e. using a trainer) by your own logic and thus should be banned.

 

That's literally the only reason why any of these glitches are allowed or considered fair: because they are a feature of the game, regardless of what the developers intended.

 

And the issue with the analogy is that it is utterly false. You're merely comparing the results but the methods are completely different. No one is tampering with the save file or game's code at runtime (via a trainer) by using these glitches.

 

It is arbitrary because my uses of the replay glitch do not affect the game in any way. "Insta-passing" Firefighter still gives you 60 out of 60 fires extinguished stats and it does not affect the save file in any way. Same for the rampages.

 

It may seem minor to you but the fact that these glitches exist makes the game more fun. It's boring to only be able to complete missions in the "vanilla" way. We've all played the game that way a million times.

 

Edit: I actually don't care about Firefighter since it's such an insignificant part of the game but using the replay glitch to do rampages is somewhat useful in my opinion. That extra ammo you get is nice and arguably useful (it beats collecting that ammo manually).

Yes, there are several Special Vehicles in the game that can be obtained using duplication, replays or other side mission exploitations which include the Stretch from "Salvatore's Called a Meeting" but is not limited to just that vehicle. Some of the methods that are required can add permanent effects to the save file such as permanent blips, which aren't allowed for use in the Chain Game, but there are methods that do not have any known effect on the save file after using. The special vehicle community, much like the speedrunning community, continue to investigate new possibilities and can discover new methods to obtain vehicles as well as discovering new vehicles to obtain using such methods. Yes, 'old guides' may not make mention of this, but through evolution a lot of these guides now contain outdated information or do not cover every single possibility.


I'm not specifically interested in the speedrunning context of duplicating missions because the Chain Game isn't a speedrunning platform and so there will be cases where all possibilities of such features are likely to be discovered and tested on the Chain Game Save and it is our responsibility to look at such possibilities beforehand so that we can make a judgement and clearly outline what the rules are to prevent any possible issues that could occur. This is the same case with replays, which is the main point of discussion that you continue to seem keen to move away from or compare to other features that are not really comparable as we have both already agreed.


I think that the passive aggressive tone in your previous reply, where you seem insistent that the implementation of this rule was arbitrary and that we require a 'specialist' to look into the game code suggesting that we're not well versed on the possibilities of the replay feature and aren't in a position to make fair judgement on it, is not only disappointing to hear from you but completely unnecessary and is not the way that I expect anyone to speak to me or any other member of the Chain Game Community.


It is hypocritical to suggest that because I am yet to provide an example of how replay glitches can cause an issue in a save file I haven't researched the possibilities of the Replay Feature before implementing the rule and have no knowledge on the subject, when you have failed to provide a consistent or valid argument for the use of replays in any of your responses thus far. It is clear to me that you have done absolutely no research into the possibilities yourself besides what you knew beforehand as you'd be able to find examples of how they have an effect on the save file had you bothered. I do not wish to draw attention to the possible uses of replays here in the Chain Game Lounge, neither do I think that you deserve any further response on this matter due to the attitude expressed in your post. As I've previously stated, I do not expect to be spoken to like that and will not be taking time to reason with somebody who feels that is an appropriate way to respond. All I can suggest is that you should take the time to research the matter yourself so that you are better informed rather than trying to suggest that my argument is false.


The issue you mention with the Crusher Glitch and the possibility of preventing the "Taxi Driver" side mission from being re-activated is an issue that we've had on a couple of occasions in the past, with the earlier incident you are referring to occurring back in 2013. WildBrick142 had used the incorrect key combination in his turn, using the side mission toggle key instead of the look behind key when he tried to emulate the glitch, and it was later discovered that "Taxi Driver" could no longer be activated.


We were forced to revert progress during the round to an earlier turn and at the time I had decided that going forward the Ghost Ambulance method of completing "Paramedic" was banned from any further use in the Chain Game, noting that this was a relatively new glitch that hadn't been thoroughly tested, and it had seemed based on this occurrence in one of the first ever uses of the glitch in the Chain Game that the glitch possibly had flaws that would be save damaging. You reacted to the ban saying that it was not necessary as you believed that it was directly down to how the player had attempted to activate the glitch and so both you and I had a further discussion on the glitch as well as a separate conversation I had with thehambone, and we took the time to look further into exactly how the glitch worked, how it should be activated and why it caused the issue in the Save File.


Once we were sure that it did not pose any threat of damaging the save file if activated correctly, the ban was lifted. In your response you seem to suggest that it is comparable to the replay ban and note that it was not a banned glitch in the Chain Game, yet you were completely involved in the entire process of it being banned and then later lifted which you seem to have not mentioned. While I would agree that this is an occurrence where the crusher glitch could have the possibility to cause a save damaging effect which I had not previously mentioned, I disagree that the 'regular use' of the glitch to create a DP Vehicle is something that under my analogy should be disallowed.


Special Vehicles have traditionally always been an exception to several Chain Game Rules and this has been the case for almost eight years since the Chain Game was first launched. Currently, a player is able to fail a mission, use a replay or a form of mission duplication (that does not add a permanent blip to the radar)  in order to collect a special vehicle if the only method to collect that vehicle requires it. You have been a semi-regular participant of the Chain Game since Round 1 and have never expressed any issue with this rule, yet now that replays are an exception, you seem to not understand why they should be. Similarly, you refuse to address that cheats, being busted and being wasted are also intended features of the game which are ruled against in the Chain Game, that you have also expressed no problem with.


I think that your overall argument is terribly inconsistent and I'm unsure of what the overall point you are trying to make is. I'm aware that you seem to think replays make the game more 'fun', which I don't understand in the context of Firefighter as it takes any form of interaction out of the mission and is nothing more than repeatedly pressing a key on your keyboard which is hardly thrilling, however the majority of regular players agree that the rule should be in play. We spent time conducting research on the matter and the feedback that we received from almost all regular players of the game suggested that the prevention of using replays during Missions and Side Missions was a rule that should be implemented.


As mentioned in my original message, it is hard to try and please everyone when you have a community of this size or larger, and so when making any decision we have keep in mind what the majority of the people that such a rule would affect would like to see. We purposely contacted some players that we know used replays in previous Chain Game Turns to hear what their stance on the rule was, and ultimately we came to a decision on the matter which is that currently replays are not allowed to be used outside of Missions and Side Missions. If you're only interested in playing the game using replays, you're always able to continue playing through the game yourself in your own playthroughs outside of the Chain Game.


For someone that claims to "not care about the Chain Game enough to get mad", you certainly seem to have had a lot to say. It is extremely unlikely that we are going to revert this rule on the basis that only you seem to be so unhappy with it, and once again I am sorry that you feel this way. I think it'd be a shame to lose someone like you as a player of the Chain Game, but I'm afraid there is nothing more I have to say about this. You're more than welcome to send me a message and we can have a further discussion about the rules of the Chain Game and why they are the way they are, but otherwise I think that is the end of my input in this discussion.

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Dealux
Posted (edited)

This post is irrelevant.

Edited by Dealux

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Dealux
Posted (edited)

Is there a way to access the subway from Portland in the beginning of the game?

Edit: lol I forgot about the crusher glitch.

Edited by Dealux

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SorveteQuente

Maybe if you use the crusher glitch in a car

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Parik

or you can jump over the Callahan Bridge and take a car down the subway to Portland if you don't want to use the crusher glitch. 😛

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Dealux

I need something quick for the purpose of a 100% run. Crusher glitch whilst leaving Portland through the tunnel would be optimal. I've been practicing for a one sitting 100% run for a while now. If everything goes well, I will live stream it next Friday.

 

Here's what I practiced today:

 

 

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iguaan
Posted (edited)

If you do crusher you'll have to run all the way to Staunton Island through the tunnel (I'm guessing you want the package).

 

If you allow death you can just deathwarp (megajump if you're using replays, otherwise grenades or get ran over by a train[might work, i never tried it lol]) after using ghost car to get past the barrier (since you can't get back in the car);

if you don't the second best is probably as Parik mentioned, enter the tunnel from SI or SSV and drive in the tunnel with a fast car.

Edited by iguaan

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