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Killatomate

[V|REL] Realistic Driving V

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Killthosepuppies

While you're here, I want to ask you about this:

 

6xvnhKg.jpgTeDvorP.jpg

 

Basically, the angle the front wheel turns doesn't match the path it will actually go. Is there any way to make steering more pronounced? That visual understeer looks really annoying.

Seems like some animations are made for specific steering angles. They may also depend on model properties, i.e. the same handling may look different on different car or bike models (for example suspension may look stiffer or vice versa). Do you have custom steering angles? I don't know if Realistic Driving changes steering angles, can't check it right now.

Edited by Killthosepuppies

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ikt

What if their visual angle just doesn't line up with their physical angle? It shouldn't be a too big problem anyway since it only looks a bit weird. I think they used some different calculation for that.

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Killatomate

here is some Pfister811 footage with downforce equal to real life and its final suspension settings:

 

 

even with a gamepad you can drive the car either drifting or sticky, depending on how hard you handle the controls...

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Claude_Lib

Looks great! BTW, how do you like the new update?

Also, one more question. Are you going to swap the engine sounds so the cars will sound like their real-life counterparts do/how their engines are supposed to sound based on their visual appearance. GTA Wikia mentions that for lots of vehicles, like when the engine looks like it's a V12, but sounds like I4, for example.

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cp1dell

is there anything else that should be changed if you modify the vehicle's top-speed? I feel like acceleration would have to be modified since they sort of go hand-in-hand with each other, ya know?

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Killatomate

@cp1dell i could try to find some sort of formula for scaled down topspeed and acceleration, something that anyone could easily apply himself.

 

 

 

edit:

 

Tv = (transmission velocity * 0.50) + 75

DragCoeff = (DragCoeff *2) + 5.0

 

applying this to a supercar would scale down top speed from 320 to about 200 kmh, applying it to a normal road car would scale speed down from 180kmh to 155kmh.

Edited by Killatomate

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cp1dell

I'm assuming the example you provided is what you edited in afterwards. Really appreciate it, thank you.

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nkjellman

@cp1dell i could try to find some sort of formula for scaled down topspeed and acceleration, something that anyone could easily apply himself.

 

 

 

edit:

 

Tv = (transmission velocity * 0.50) + 75

DragCoeff = (DragCoeff *2) + 5.0

 

applying this to a supercar would scale down top speed from 320 to about 200 kmh, applying it to a normal road car would scale speed down from 180kmh to 155kmh.

I hope that this will be optional. I like my speeds realistic.

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PhillBellic

As do I. Realism all the way.

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cp1dell

I don't think he's going to apply it to the mod. Just something he came up with so chumps like me could lower the top speed and keep everything else in-line.

 

I understand the want for realistic speeds, but to me it just makes the map feel smaller, and a little surreal driving at the speeds you do.

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ikt

Just use a script or something to nerf the engines.

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Killatomate

still without working script hook. i made small adjustments to the formula using brainpower instead of debug.

 

DragCoeff = (DragCoeff *1.5) + (DriveForce * 7.0) + 4.9

Tv = (transmission velocity * 0.58) + 51

 

result: Infernus topspeed is scaled from 340 kmh to 225 kmh, Cavalcade from 230 kmh to 180 kmh. Including properly scaled down acceleration curve and gear ratio. Driving feels similar to vanilla handling except that all the annoying stuff (twitchy steering, insane cornering, insane braking, low gravity) is gone. Feels exactly how Rockstar should have released the game.

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PhillBellic

still without working script hook. i made small adjustments to the formula using brainpower instead of debug.

 

DragCoeff = (DragCoeff *1.5) + (DriveForce * 7.0) + 4.9

Tv = (transmission velocity * 0.58) + 51

 

result: Infernus topspeed is scaled from 340 kmh to 225 kmh, Cavalcade from 230 kmh to 180 kmh. Including properly scaled down acceleration curve and gear ratio. Driving feels similar to vanilla handling except that all the annoying stuff (twitchy steering, insane cornering, insane braking, low gravity) is gone. Feels exactly how Rockstar should have released the game.

Not to forget about the Insta Kerb Hopping.

 

I reckon Rockstar should Hire you to make the Handling for the Next Game. :^:

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cp1dell

still without working script hook. i made small adjustments to the formula using brainpower instead of debug.

 

DragCoeff = (DragCoeff *1.5) + (DriveForce * 7.0) + 4.9

Tv = (transmission velocity * 0.58) + 51

 

result: Infernus topspeed is scaled from 340 kmh to 225 kmh, Cavalcade from 230 kmh to 180 kmh. Including properly scaled down acceleration curve and gear ratio. Driving feels similar to vanilla handling except that all the annoying stuff (twitchy steering, insane cornering, insane braking, low gravity) is gone. Feels exactly how Rockstar should have released the game.

So is this something you're actually going to release as an optional install?

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PhillBellic

 

still without working script hook. i made small adjustments to the formula using brainpower instead of debug.

 

DragCoeff = (DragCoeff *1.5) + (DriveForce * 7.0) + 4.9

Tv = (transmission velocity * 0.58) + 51

 

result: Infernus topspeed is scaled from 340 kmh to 225 kmh, Cavalcade from 230 kmh to 180 kmh. Including properly scaled down acceleration curve and gear ratio. Driving feels similar to vanilla handling except that all the annoying stuff (twitchy steering, insane cornering, insane braking, low gravity) is gone. Feels exactly how Rockstar should have released the game.

So is this something you're actually going to release as an optional install?

 

I sure hope so. I'd like to keep using the 'Actual Speeds' File Set.

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cp1dell

Well now I'm curious since he's making it sound like he's working on it more, and planning on releasing it. I wouldn't doubt it would be optional considering the mod's original/main purpose is realism, and knocking down the top speed goes against that. Still a nice option though to keep a balance between vanilla restrictions (which exist for a reason) and better handling.

Edited by cp1dell

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PhillBellic

Well now I'm curious since he's making it sound like he's working on it more, and planning on releasing it. I wouldn't doubt it would be optional considering the mod's original/main purpose is realism, and knocking down the top speed goes against that. Still a nice option though to keep a balance between vanilla restrictions (which exist for a reason) and better handling.

It might just be like the Deformation Options Choices.

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Killatomate

Scaled Down Top Speed

All this does is scale down top speed, acceleration curve and gear ratio while keeping everything else as realistic as possible. it's basically an intelligent speed governor, keeping you from driving too fast. So instead of driving 250 kmh in the inner city, losing control and slamming into a concrete wall at 220 kmh you will now lose control at 210 kmh and slam into the building at 180kmh. much better :D

 

i spent 3 hours testing stuff and found that in order to turn my sophisticated v1.2 handling into a super awesome improved version of vanilla handling you have to make these changes to each applicable (1.2 handling) car individually:

 

fInitialDragCoeff = (fInitialDragCoeff * 1.8) + (fInitialDriveForce * 9.0) + 4.3
fDriveInertia = (fDriveInertia * 0.2) + 0.8
fInitialDriveMaxFlatVel = (fInitialDriveMaxFlatVel * 0.58) + 53
fLowSpeedTractionLossMult = fLowSpeedTractionLossMult * 1.4
fTractionBiasFront = fTractionBiasFront + ( (0.5 - fTractionBiasFront) / 7)
fSuspensionForce = fSuspensionForce * 0.89

 

The result is pretty impressive. Everything except topspeed remains close to real life. But driving 220kmh instead of 300kmh proves to be much less stressful when having realistic tire grip and brakes. Definately a handling option worth having.

 

v1.2 Status

i have finished finding the best settings for v1.2 car handling. finding settings which work properly with increased oversteer and the newly added downforce took about 60 hours of testing. whats left to do is to create that new handling for each car indivually using these new rules. this will take an average of 1 hour for each car (cut down from 2 hours thanks to ikt) so with 100 cars planned to feature v1.2 handling thats 100 hours of work minimum. on top of that i will have to dig for more data on each car's real life downforce (very difficult to find). thats 15 more hours. then i wanted to make a few tweaks to AI viewrange, brake usage and spawn speed. thats 10 more hours. As you can tell i have no time left over to work on more stuff. The 'scaled down topspeed' handling is a great addition but i have no time to deal with that right now. If you are interested in that optional handling and want to take some work off my shoulders you could write a script which automates the process of applying these changes to the handling file. You would feed the script a list of cars which are applicable to the change (eg. "BANSHEE, BANSHEE2, CHEETAH, T20") and it would then modify the handling parameters for each car individually in an automated process. this way no time would have to be wasted creating a "scaled topspeed" handling separately, as the script would automatically update the handling file when changes to the Realistic Driving V mod are made.

Edited by Killatomate

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ikt

Are those changes all changes? I can probably make a quick tool to apply those calculations through the whole handling file, or per handling name.

 

No promises though as I feel pretty burned out from work and ridiculous travel. It's not memory editing anyway so anybody should be able to make such a script like the dozens simple parsers already exist on GTA5-Mods.com. If it needs to be live/ingame/toggleable it might need to be an asi script to change it on demand. Forking my project should give whoever wants to do this a reasonable base to start with.

 

Also I was dumb - you can just spawn a new instance of a vehicle to apply the changes to drive bias (otherwise if you set a Blista Compact to be RWD you lose all power, so just spawn a new Blista Compact to get the proper drivetrain settings applied). This also probably applies to other params but you have to test, as I wanted some sleep yesterday.

 

Anyway if there's anything else you'd like to have integrated into the real time tool just give a shout, I'll consider it if it's a reasonable amount of work/in scope.

 

Also question: How much do the model and handling flags affect handling?

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Killatomate
Are those changes all changes?

at the moment i would say yes. i tested for 30 minutes and it worked perfectly fine with those vehicles tested.

i am not exaggerating when i say thats its a "super awesome improved version of vanilla handling". I actually like it more than the version with realistic top speed. The shorter gear ratio gives the impression of higher acceleration while the reduced speed helps alot for people who are not familliar with the concept of braking before a turn, without making the brakes unrealistic in any way. overall the scaled down version (not as stupidly scaled down as vanilla!) works much better with the typical GTA gameplay (objects/cars spawning right in front of you).

 

 

 

I can probably make a quick tool to apply those calculations through the whole handling file, or per handling name.

that would be really helpful. it needs to be selective per handling name, as the formula works for road cars and supercars only. It would mess up trucks, bikes, helicopters, planes and boats. Since vehicles in the handling.meta file are not sorted by vehicle type it would be a real mess to clean up :D:D:D

 

 

 

How much do the model and handling flags affect handling?

a lot. they affect ABS type, brake balance, brake efficiency, mess up suspension physics, change suspension type, can apply unrealistic tire grip calculation, can make the vehicle float.

Edited by Killatomate

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ikt

Ah, then I need to get the handling flags copied into memory ASAP. Not sure if they actually apply while the model is loaded though, need to do some more testing. Did you find out if loading a new vehicle instance applied changes in centreofmass properly?

 

Also I think I just might make it a separate executable or something, I don't know yet. If you can share a list of vehicles needing this I can hardcode it, and make something that just goes through the meta and saves the new entries as a new meta.

 

handling.meta does make later entries override upper entries, right?

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Killatomate

Ah, then I need to get the handling flags copied into memory ASAP. Not sure if they actually apply while the model is loaded though,

While these flags affect handling a lot, i would not say that they are very useful. providing as many options as possible in your tool is not helpful for less experienced modders and only presents them more ways to screw up. being presented with too many options may deter potential modders. There is no need to change the flags on the fly anyway, if that even works.

 

the only flags that would be of use are:

ABS type - ABS_STD, ABS_OPTION, ABS_ALT_STD, ABS_ALT_OPTION

suspension type - AXLE_F_TORSION, AXLE_F_SOLID, AXLE_F_MCPHERSON

 

please dont overwork yourself. we need you :p

 

 

 

 

handling.meta does make later entries override upper entries, right?

no idea. i never created a duplicate entry by accident.

Edited by Killatomate

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ikt

 

Ah, then I need to get the handling flags copied into memory ASAP. Not sure if they actually apply while the model is loaded though,

While these flags affect handling a lot, i would not say that they are very useful. providing as many options as possible in your tool is not helpful for less experienced modders and only presents them more ways to screw up. being presented with too many options may deter potential modders. There is no need to change the flags on the fly anyway, if that even works.

 

the only flags that would be of use are:

ABS type - ABS_STD, ABS_OPTION, ABS_ALT_STD, ABS_ALT_OPTION

suspension type - AXLE_F_TORSION, AXLE_F_SOLID, AXLE_F_MCPHERSON

 

please dont overwork yourself. we need you :p

 

 

 

 

 

handling.meta does make later entries override upper entries, right?

no idea. i never created a duplicate entry by accident.

 

They're just a few things I can already print out, it's not too much to add.

 

I just want more hours in a day :(

 

edit - what a sh*tshow that update was. RTHandlingEditor 1.3 includes pretty much all fixes. You still gotta spawn a new car for some changes to apply and centre of mass is still sketchy, but everything else should be great now, much thanks to leftas too!

 

Also all offsets have been updated for biker dlc too (still completely backward compatible)

Edited by ikt

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Killatomate

A big part of this handling mod is getting the performance of each car right. The actual performance depends on much more than simply 0-60mph, topspeed, brake strength and basic grip multiplicator.

looking at this game's dumb playerbase you will usually see statements such as these: "its topspeed parameter is 192, therfore this car

is faster on a straight than car x" (THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A TOPSPEED PARAMETER!). "The car has 1.9 grip multiplicator, therefore it corners better than car x". Most people dont even know the difference between a multiplicator and an absolute number. not even the people on the WIKI can get that right. cringeworthy.

 

center of mass has a big impact on cornering and braking, aka the ACTUAL GRIP. Same is true for suspension settings. suspension settings affect grip depending on speed and surface.

Slip angle affects grip as well. the way a car corners is a big factor.

cornering: 0.0° angle+understeer << 0.0° drift angle << 4.0° drift angle

same tire grip settings, different cornering efficiency.

and then there is downforce. not only does it affect grip depending on speed, it also pushes down on suspension and affects brake balance.

What do we learn from this? we learn that we have no f*cking clue what the actual tire grip of the particular car actually is.

 

After getting the basic performance of a car handling right (accleration, topspeed, base grip multiplier) and finishing all of the other handling aspects (center of mass, suspension settings, body roll, downforce, brakeforce, brakebias...) i take cars to a race track in order to measure overall track performance (i already did this when creating GTA IV handling).

 

TL;DR

So, after finishing v1.2 car handling using a ton theoretical data i took the new cars to the track to see how all that performance THEORY compares to actual hotlapping on the raceway.

 

Race track: Los Santos Raceway

Length: 2488 meters

average speed: 107 kmh

 

Hotlapping results:

T20: 82.4 seconds (overperforming. should be about 1.3 seconds slower than Pfister on a track like this)

Pfister811: 84.7 seconds

FMJ: 87.0 seconds (prototype. no real life lap times available)

Tyrus: 87.1 seconds (looks solid. should be about 1.4 seconds faster than Ferrari Enzo. Problem: there is no Ferrari Enzo in this test)

TurismoR: 87.7 seconds (underperforming. should be no more than 1.2 seconds slower than T20 on a track like this)

Infernus: 87.7 seconds

Adder: 89.8 seconds

 

perfectionism bad. drugs good. now excuse me, i have to take a leak. i dont like leaks, but this particular leak i do want.

Edited by Killatomate

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Killatomate

Before development comes research

A big percentage of this mod's development time (~40 %) is spent on gathering intel / researching performance and handling characteristics of real cars. You cannot create something close to real life if you have no concept/definition of real life. Sadly gathering info is very tedious and time consuming due to the internet being ruled by propaganda and disinfo. you have to find multiple sources and compare. then use your brain and its integrated bullsh*t detector to discard the least likely data. Even worse is gathering data on new 'high profile' performance cars by the big manufacturers (McLaren P1, LaFerrari, Ford GT 2017), especially if the car has just entered production and the only data available comes from prototype hotlapping and insider speculation. Another problem is rare super expensive irreplaceable cars (McLaren F1 GTR Longtail "LeMans" 1997) which nobody drives at the limit anymore (in order to provide the public with lap times for popular race tracks and for modern tires). Tires from 1985 have different grip levels than tires from 2015... no?

 

Licensed driving simulator developers seem to get more info on certain cars than what the manufacturer is willing to give away in (propaganda) press releases. i have several racing simulators and a setup with steering wheel and pedals. My favorite sim at the moment is Assetto Corsa, as it seems to be very accurate and also provides a lot of physics debug information for modders.

 

Accuracy of data

Anyone familiar with science knows that data is useless unless its accuracy/validity has been determined. So before using a driving simulator's data i have to verify it's accuracy. Lets use Assetto Corsa and the P1 as an example. Assetto Corsa features a laser-scanned Nordschleife race track, a track used as benchmark by european car manufacturers. http://www.nuerburgring.de/en/fans-info/race-tracks/nordschleife.html

The fastest recorded time for the P1 on this difficult track (22.8km, 173 turns!) is 6:58.

i set the simulator to max realism, typical cold german weather, Trofeo S street-legal tires and "somewhat clean" road surface providing 95% of maximum grip. My fastest hotlap with optimized car setup was 6:53. close enough.

Then i measured lateral acceleration. Real life measurements for Trofeo S tires show 1.57g at 190kmh. Averaging the datapoints from Assetto Corsa resulted in 1.54g. close enough for me.

 

Gathering of data

Now that the accuracy of the P1 in assetto corsa has been verified, i can start hotlapping and skidpadding with lots of physics readouts and debug stuff on screen. i have to capture everything on video at 60fps and analyse later frame by frame, as the information is too much to be processed in real time. your eyes can only focus at one area of the screen at a time, your brain cannot handle 60 readouts per second and calculate min, max and average on the fly... or can it?

Edited by Killatomate

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ikt

Do you have a track you test on? These subpar roads in and around Los Santos really throw me off, these "small bumps" send you flying most of the time.

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Killatomate

Do you have a track you test on? These subpar roads in and around Los Santos really throw me off, these "small bumps" send you flying most of the time.

how to:

-install this: https://www.gta5-mods.com/tools/map-builder

-install this: https://www.gta5-mods.com/scripts/menyoo-pc-sp

-move this (https://www.gta5-mods.com/maps/los-santos-international-raceway) to "GTAV / menyooStuff / spooner"

-launch the game and press F8, then navigate to: spooner -> saved files -> raceway -> load assets

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Cyron43

Jets

making handling for the prop planes was not really satisying. GTA physics are not fit to simulate aircraft. drag fluctuates by a factor of 2.5, making planes too fast and too slow at the same time. giving the wings proper lift results in horrible trim problems that cannot be fixed. then there is the problem that the landing gear creates 3 times as much ground friction as desired, forcing me to make engines more powerful to counter the friction on takeoff. and then people complain about landings being too difficult and scripted missions being to hard to complete. i think i will go back to default planes in update 1.2

I am glad to hear that. :^:

Edited by Cyron43

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nkjellman

 

Do you have a track you test on? These subpar roads in and around Los Santos really throw me off, these "small bumps" send you flying most of the time.

how to:

-install this: https://www.gta5-mods.com/tools/map-builder

-install this: https://www.gta5-mods.com/scripts/menyoo-pc-sp

-move this (https://www.gta5-mods.com/maps/los-santos-international-raceway) to "GTAV / menyooStuff / spooner"

-launch the game and press F8, then navigate to: spooner -> saved files -> raceway -> load assets

 

Out of curiosity does the map builder still replace objects with the materials, or did he make them added now that we have meta tool?

 

Ether way, I hope that we will get a race track that is a true map mod. By that I mean that it uses ymaps/ytypes, custom models, and is an rpf.

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Killatomate

Previous Pfister811 video showed handling with realistic performance, tire grip, suspension and downforce. Now i have finished all of the remaining stuff.

Pfister811 is now in its final state. Same for TurismoR, developed in secrecy under the codename FerrariWheelspin.

 

Edited by Killatomate

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