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Dingdongs

Eating disorders/body image/fat acceptance

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Dingdongs

 

 

 

You're arguing too much about the specifics and losing the analogy in the process. Teen steroid use for example, is as much as serious an issue as teens starving themselves. What I'm getting at is that body-image problems manifest themselves in a variety of ways, some of which people don't really perceive as unhealthy, and other unhealthy conditions also manifest themselves in body-types people perceive as being healthy. All I'm trying to point out is ways that people are already making themselves unhealthy trying to strive for unhealthy body types.The reason I'm pointing it out is because I think there's literally no one out there being encouraged to be fat or pressured to be fat. Plus like you told me I should still be trying to lose weight, I am for my own interested and I've dropped down to this level from being over 400 lbs so it's not like weight is a static issue. So you think there's some kind of like, danger to telling her she looks good because you think it will make her not be inclined to lose more weight, or perhaps want to gain more, but I just don't see this being a realistic concern. For one thing, someone isn't going to want to gain weight unless there's some sort of reason of vanity behind it and society isn't anywhere near a point of promoting this type of body image like we do with others. I guess you're argument is that acceptance is a slippery slope to promotion though?

Sure, in part. And the reason I responded to the specifics is only because you brought them up... I don't believe that it's as widespread a problem that some teens hop on a cycle of prohormones because of their retarded football coach and end up with shrunken balls for 3 months as there is with society trying to accept people who are morbidly obese. Do you use facebook? I see this sh*t literally daily... shared posts of huge fat people that say that they're beautiful, and specifically, to not listen to anyone who says to change. How about they listen to their doctors? And good on you dude for losing weight. It's tough and I'm seriously glad to hear it. Hope your journey goes well.. go to the fitness thread sometime in GenChat if you'd like.

 

 

 

The reason I scoff at the health concern issue isn't because the health concerns with being fat aren't real, it's, really because of the idea that being fat automatically makes a person unhealthy that is just nonsense but on top of that I just don't believe that it's really the main concern, but more as like another "justification".

For example I'll come back to this... What's wrong with telling a fat woman she is beautiful and celebrate that in society, while also encouraging healthier lifestyle choices? I just think there's a lot of other factors at play for why there is so much pressure to discourage it and none of them are really well-intentioned even if there's a notion there is.

I don't think there is anything wrong with saying to a fat woman that she's beautiful. Nothing at all. She could have a pretty face, a beautiful personality, kind, giving, etc... but at the end of the day, when you actively propagate an idea that obesity can be physically beautiful, you don't necessarily "encourage it" as in, make people say "Hey! Let me be obese too!", but rather make people stop caring about their health... which is directly reflected by weight more often than not.

 

 

 

I think the biggest thing is the message is being confused... I don't think anyone is saying, "See these women are fat, and they will always be fat, and we should celebrate that as beautiful." If you think about it though, you have no idea if these hypothetical models are already in the process of dropping weight or what it's just assumed that the idea is they're trying to defend their "lifestyle" when in reality you cannot even directly assume their lifestyle because fat just doesn't "disappear", so for all we know she could be leading a healthy lifestyle getting skinnier and just wants to feel sexy at the moment. Now given that there are people in who society who will see her as sexy, what is the problem with that? I don't think it would really cause a woman to go "Well screw that they think I'm sexy, bring on the twinkies." Maybe some women sure, but I doubt it's going to turn into some kind of epidemic...

For all we know she could be. I've seen lots of images on facebook in different fitness groups I'm in of women (and men) who are losing tons of weight and everyone likes those images, thousands of people... and writes encouraging things. If a woman who is 5 foot goes from 230 lbs to 180 and is still on her weight loss journey and shares that image, people offer great support. When you have somebody posting this stuff about how they're 250 lbs and happy and #f*cksocietalstandards, then they need to get a grip.

 

 

 

In the mean time, we DO have an epidemic already started of young girls binging and purging to look like super models and young men doping up to get huge muscles. I'm just trying to point out what would solve all of that, and it's not shaming or making people feel bad about it: That's what started it.

Again, I don't know how many young men we have doping up on steroids... I'm not buying that it's an epidemic. As for binging by young girls, sure.. that's a problem. The way to solve that is not by saying that obesity isn't a problem. In fact, much of these girls purging, in fact at least in my experience I would say most of them, are usually normal-weight girls that have negative self esteem issues (like any teenage girl). It's not girls that are already fat that are deciding to binge and purge.. so how making it societally acceptable to be obese is going to help that issue is beyond me.

 

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Dingdongs

That article makes me want to vomit.

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Abel.

That article makes me want to vomit.

 

The title alone made me vomit.

 

 

OT: I really don't like to offend people, so if (say) one of my friends were obese, I wouldn't tell them and I'd certainly defend them if someone started making fun of them for their weight. However, I think society needs to really address the endemic problem of obesity. Make no mistake, I support rigorous curricula in schools (in my view primary school kids should just have maths, English language and PE), but I think we've gotten to the point at which kids should be taught how to buy food from the supermarket and cook healthy, cost-effective meals. It's not as easy as getting a ready meal, certainly, but it can be done and is critical to one's health and well being. Walking up to people and "shaming" them for their weight is just completely rude, so I don't condone that. However, it's crucial that we don't become complacent regarding obesity and that we take proper measures to address it. Trying to accommodate extreme obesity rather than actively combating it is unfair to those who suffer from obesity and unfair to wider society.

 

 

If anorexia is seen as a problem (which it should be seen as, because it is a serious condition), then so should extreme obesity.

Edited by Failure

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Saggy

You guys make me want to vomit...

 

So I can be thin and valuable as a person I mean! See you're helping me get healthy...

 

*purges*

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Dingdongs
600px-Lipurgexnet.jpg Edited by Irviding

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Clem Fandango

in fact at least in my experience I would say most of them, are usually normal-weight girls that have negative self esteem issues (like any teenage girl). It's not girls that are already fat that are deciding to binge and purge.. so how making it societally acceptable to be obese is going to help that issue is beyond me.

It's beyond you because you don't understand the issue. Do you honestly struggle to see how women starving themselves thin might be related to society idealising thinness? Fat-phobia is broader than round people being directly discriminated against, it's the very idea that bigger bodies are less than others. Even at 'normal weight' the ideal isn't achieved.

 

Most eating disorders start as (entirely unnecessary) diets, and the reinforcement from weight loss become addictive.

 

 

 

When you have somebody posting this stuff about how they're 250 lbs and happy and #f*cksocietalstandards, then they need to get a grip.

lol maybe you need to get a grip and stop telling women what to do with their bodies.

 

 

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with saying to a fat woman that she's beautiful. Nothing at all. She could have a pretty face, a beautiful personality, kind, giving, etc... but at the end of the day, when you actively propagate an idea that obesity can be physically beautiful,

Fat is beautiful.

 

 

 

health... which is directly reflected by weight more often than not.

Well, it isn't. Even if it were, wanting to construct standards of beauty in order to shame people into being healthy isn't a reasonable position. Nobdoy would suggest that people with tans should be mocked at every turn and precluded from feeling comfortable in their own skin, and tanning is demonstrably unhealthy. You just like feeling superior to fat people, and the push for size acceptance undermines that. Does seeing fat people who love their bodies make you feel like you've wasted too much time at the gym?

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Abel.

 

in fact at least in my experience I would say most of them, are usually normal-weight girls that have negative self esteem issues (like any teenage girl). It's not girls that are already fat that are deciding to binge and purge.. so how making it societally acceptable to be obese is going to help that issue is beyond me.

It's beyond you because you don't understand the issue. Do you honestly struggle to see how women starving themselves thin might be related to society idealising thinness? Fat-phobia is broader than round people being directly discriminated against, it's the very idea that bigger bodies are less than others. Even at 'normal weight' the ideal isn't achieved.

 

Most eating disorders start as (entirely unnecessary) diets, and the reinforcement from weight loss become addictive.

 

 

 

When you have somebody posting this stuff about how they're 250 lbs and happy and #f*cksocietalstandards, then they need to get a grip.

lol maybe you need to get a grip and stop telling women what to do with their bodies.

 

 

In his defence this has nothing to do with "telling women what to do with their bodies", this is about discouraging the notion that we should encourage an unhealthy lifestyle. What would you make of a dangerously thin girl posting pictures of herself with #f*cksocietalstandards as a caption? Some people certainly have conditions that predispose them to being fat, I am aware of this, but usually obesity is a symptom of an unhealthy lifestyle.

 

 

Increasing tolerance is great, but there's a fine line between this "fat acceptance" notion and letting an unhealthy lifestyle go unchecked. No, I'm no talking about "fat shaming" (which is mean), I'm talking about greater societal awareness concerning obesity, not letting obesity become (or remain, in some parts of the world) the norm and ensuring that our young people know how to cook healthy, cost-effective meals.

Edited by Failure

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Clem Fandango

Increasing tolerance is great, but there's a fine line between this "fat acceptance" notion and letting an unhealthy lifestyle go unchecked.

I'm not interested in 'increasing tolerance' I'm interested in destroying an oppressive standard of beauty. I wouldn't lose any sleep over the fact that we're no longer discouraging an unhealthy lifestyle- in fact I'd be happy to live in a society where people have bodily autonomy and lifestyle decisions are entirely up to the individual.

 

Not that being fat is necessarily unhealthy, mind.

Edited by Melchior

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Saggy

 

Not that being fat is necessarily unhealthy, mind.

 

According to Irv it is. I already tried explaining then whole BMI being bullsh*t and not every fat person gets diabetes or heart disease, but it basically booked into a, "Well fat people are at higher risk so that in itself is unhealthy."

 

I wonder if anyone actually read the article I posted... Because it brings up exactly what you are saying about this notion of people bringing this up as some kind of good samarotan concerned about other's health. Probably just scoffed at the title.

 

Also I think it's hilariously ironic my tablet keeps autocorrecting "fat" to "fast".

 

Hey, fellow folks with thin privilege (you should know who you are):

 

We need to talk. Ive been seeing a lot of people equating skinny-shaming and fat-shaming and I want to declare, on the record, that this is wrong and harmful.

 

There is a huge difference between skinny shaming and fat shaming and its a difference of scale and systemic power dynamics. Body shaming against all bodies is damaging, including microaggressions against skinny people.

 

However, the difference between feelings being hurt and discrimination, dehumanization, and denial of rights on a systemic level is vast.

 

Body terrorism against people who are fat is insidious, and its openly practiced in the halls of our societys most central institutions hospitals, schools, the legal system, and the workplace.

 

Various studies have found that fat people suffer profound discrimination at work; they are more likely to be fired or suspended, less likely to be hired in the first place, earn smaller salaries in comparable positions, and receive fewer promotions for comparable job performance.

 

In another study, 54% of doctors reported that they believe physicians should have the right to withhold treatment from overweight or obese patients.

 

You read that horrifying sentence correctly: Of these professionals who have taken an oath to heal, more than half think that its perfectly all right to deny healthcare to people seeking healthcare!

 

These injustices stem from conscious and unconscious bias against heavier folks. Thinness is not only the beauty standard, but also a false gauge of health, wellness, energy, cleanliness, ambition, intelligence, and morality.

 

A study from the University of Alberta showed that when a thin person is seen lying down watching television, people assume theyre resting. But when people see an overweight person relaxing, its automatically assumed theyre lazy and unmotivated.

 

Yet, clearly, this is not the case.

 

So, what is thin privilege?

 

It is the fact that strangers at grocery stores and restaurants have never felt the need to comment on my shopping cart or the amount of food on my plate.

 

It is the fact that I can find clothes in my size anywhere and everywhere.

 

It is the fact that no doctor has ever looked at me and thought diabetes, high blood pressure, or high cholesterol.

 

In fact, multiple doctors have looked at me and said, You must work out! even though I do not.

 

I do not think twice about eating in public. There is no systemic belief about my personality or drive.

 

If you are a thin person reading this and you feel offended, you might be centering your feelings. I understand that we as thin people experience shaming as well.

 

Yes, I have felt disgust and discomfort with my body. I have been self-conscious and self-deprecating. I have looked in the mirror and winced at what I saw.

 

I have heard snide remarks from people who think that they have the right to advise me to gain weight.

 

I have heard rude quips from people who think that its acceptable to say, You should eat more; you can use a few extra pounds when I say Im full from a meal.

 

Yes, I wholly understand the frustration and irritation of body shaming comments like Go eat a burger, and I absolutely believe that campaigns like Real women have curves are problematic.

 

These things are body terrorism, too. However, it is a fact that skinny people are not dealing with prejudice at the same level.

 

So, if you are someone with thin privilege, and you are committed to fighting body terrorism and fat discrimination, what can you do?

 

1. Educate Yourself About Health

 

Modern classifications of overweight (over what weight?) and obese are derived from the Body Mass Index (BMI) Scale.

 

The BMI scale is inaccurate, misleading, and contains multitudes of limitations and shortcomings.

 

Studies conducted by researchers for The British Medical Journal have found that the determination of the categories of normal, overweight, and obese is entirely arbitrary and at odds with the underlying evidence about the association between body mass index and mortality, a fact that destroys the indexs scientific pretensions and diagnostic value.

 

Physical activity and nutrition do positively affect good health but body weight does not!

 

You cannot tell how much someone exercises or how nutritiously someone eats by their body size. Remember that you cannot make any assumptions about anyones health or lifestyle by looking at them.

 

2. Reassess Your Intentions

 

So, you cant make assumptions about people but even if someone were unhealthy, why is it your business anyways?

 

It is not true that weight is an indicator of health or that obesity is an epidemic that needs a cure. However, even if it were true, fat people still deserve to be treated like human beings.

 

People who fat-shame very often defend themselves by saying that they have the best intentions. They just want to help. They care about healthy lifestyles and the well-being of others.

 

But think about this for a moment: If you really, truly wanted to help someone make a healthy lifestyle choice, do you really, truly believe that shaming them and dehumanizing them will work?

 

Get off your high horse. Someone elses body, even someone elses health, is never your concern!

 

You have no right to shame them. You dont get to define their value.

 

Ever.

3. Call Out Concern Trolling

 

Concern trolling is fat-shaming commentary poorly disguised as good intentions. Some examples:

 

Im just concerned about your health!

You would be so pretty if you just lost a few pounds.

For your own good!

Obesity is a huge issue in our community/society, and I think its important to address it.

I dont hate fat people, but

Im with you, but

Or any comment that hinges on a but.

These comments are not only unhelpful, but quite harmful.

 

If you hear someone trying to concern troll, intervene where you can. Ask them if its any of their business, and ask them why they are being so rude and narrow-minded.

 

Throw out some health facts that complicate the picture because human health is complex and never binary.

 

Let them know, especially if they are someone close to you, that what theyre saying is oppressive.

 

4. Understand the Intersections

 

A white cis heterosexual man who is fat has a very different life experience than fat people with other marginalized identities.

 

Fatness is stigmatized on all bodies but on certain bodies, it adds a greater burden.

 

Furthermore, people who struggle with eating disorders may feel that the words thin privilege are galling because it is not a privilege to experience marginalization and ableism from an eating disorder.

 

This is where we must again remember that oppressions are intersectional.

 

Privilege in one form does not cancel out oppression in another form. Oppression in one form does not cancel out privilege in another form.

 

5. And Most of All: Humanize

 

It all comes down to this: How do you think we, as human beings, should treat one another?

 

Do you think that arbitrary definitions of health or misconceptions about where our tax dollars go are more important than someones humanity?

 

Do you think that a privileged persons biases trump an marginalized persons humanity?

 

We should always treat one another with empathy, compassion, and respect.

Edited by SagaciousKJB

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Dingdongs
It's beyond you because you don't understand the issue. Do you honestly struggle to see how women starving themselves thin might be related to society idealising thinness? Fat-phobia is broader than round people being directly discriminated against, it's the very idea that bigger bodies are less than others. Even at 'normal weight' the ideal isn't achieved.

I understand it quite well... I just see it as a ridiculous concept. Women starving themselves to get some thin image they see in magazines is a separate issue from making it entirely societally and medically acceptable to be obese. You can discourage people with eating disorders while at the same time not encouraging people to become obese. You're essentially arguing that we should go from one extreme to the other. I don't want people to be paper thin, I want people to be healthy. How about we don't go from societally required to be paper thin to societally acceptable to be obese, and instead only go to the middle part? You know, like, a healthy body.

 

 

 

Most eating disorders start as (entirely unnecessary) diets, and the reinforcement from weight loss become addictive.

Diets aren't entirely unnecessary. And what is wrong with people enjoying the loss of weight when they are on a diet trying to get into shape?

 

 

 

 

lol maybe you need to get a grip and stop telling women what to do with their bodies.

I see it from men too, don't worry. I'm a member of pretty much every FB fitness/lifting group there is and something like that pops up almost everyday from both genders. And by the way, it's not me telling women what to do with their bodies, it's the medical community. It's not healthy to be obese. Obesity and smoking are the two largest SELF CAUSED contributors to death in the US, and obesity is poised to knock smoking down for #1.. some experts say it already has.

 

http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB4549.html

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/experts-warn-being-fat-worse-5788467

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEcQFjAGahUKEwjc85K79vHGAhXL2B4KHbN-Av0&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffox13now.com%2F2014%2F07%2F11%2Fstudy-being-fat-is-actually-worse-for-you-than-smoking%2F&ei=LDixVdytHcuxe7P9iegP&usg=AFQjCNFgsw-6Locc0doBBkslnYONpnqjJw

 

 

 

 

 

Fat is beautiful.

If you like a lot of extra cushion for pushing, that's fine and that's up to you from an attraction standpoint. However, it's not beautiful for your health and it's not beautiful for the amount of government expenditures that go to paying for people with obesity and their medical conditions.

 

 

 

 

Well, it isn't. Even if it were, wanting to construct standards of beauty in order to shame people into being healthy isn't a reasonable position. Nobdoy would suggest that people with tans should be mocked at every turn and precluded from feeling comfortable in their own skin, and tanning is demonstrably unhealthy. You just like feeling superior to fat people, and the push for size acceptance undermines that.

I'm with you on this actually. There are plenty of unhealthy habits out there. This thread isn't about tanning beds and the relevant health concerns in that department. I think people who fry their bodies in a tanning bed are just as ridiculous as people who think it's totally healthy to be obese.

 

 

 

Does seeing fat people who love their bodies make you feel like you've wasted too much time at the gym?

No, it makes me get a hearty laugh between sets.

 

 

I'm not interested in 'increasing tolerance' I'm interested in destroying an oppressive standard of beauty. I wouldn't lose any sleep over the fact that we're no longer discouraging an unhealthy lifestyle- in fact I'd be happy to live in a society where people have bodily autonomy and lifestyle decisions are entirely up to the individual.

Not that being fat is necessarily unhealthy, mind.

It is, though. All of the medical literature says so. Even having a significant amount of belly fat which may only make you considered medically "overweight" is directly correlated to increased risk of diseases. The articles are posted abovve in response to Sagacious' posts. If you are a doctor and have done some research/controlled peer review studies to determine that the medical/scientific community is all wrong, then feel free to post your research.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

According to Irv it is. I already tried explaining then whole BMI being bullsh*t and not every fat person gets diabetes or heart disease, but it basically booked into a, "Well fat people are at higher risk so that in itself is unhealthy."

 

I wonder if anyone actually read the article I posted... Because it brings up exactly what you are saying about this notion of people bringing this up as some kind of good samarotan concerned about other's health. Probably just scoffed at the title.

 

Also I think it's hilariously ironic my tablet keeps autocorrecting "fat" to "fast".

I did read the article, as soon as it was posted and my response is still valid. I find it ridiculous and the article author scoffs at the piles of medical evidence that shows obesity as unhealthy. As for BMI, I responded to you about it above. BMI isn't the best measure, no. But it serves as a general way to determine obesity rates in a major population. I know guys who are 240 lbs and 5 10 which is technically overweight/obese but they are that size due to having a significant amount of LBM, not body fat.. (Though being that size w/o being on gear (steroids) wil include some body fat, I digress). The vast majority of the population doesn't have that same qualifier, it's that simple.

 

 

 

Also - can one of you explain what the f*ck thin privilege is? Is that serious? People who are in good shape and exercise have privilege? That's a f*cking crock of sh*t. Thousands of men and women work their assess of to keep in good shape and eat well, and they have "privilege" because of that? They aren't born that way. They work for it. What a f*cking pile of sh*t.

Edited by Irviding

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Clem Fandango

Women starving themselves to get some thin image they see in magazines is a separate issue from making it entirely societally and medically acceptable to be obese.

People starve themselves because thin is an ideal. If it's not socially acceptable to be fat then thin remains an ideal. Even if the whole thing is under the pretence of concern for public health.

 

And 'medically acceptable'... umm it's 'medically acceptable' to chain smoke, drink every night and ride a motorcycle at full speed around my carpark, insofar as if I tell my doctor I do those things, they either won't care, or a 'mind you own business, clipboard' will change the subject permanently. But if you're fat? Even if it's not having any demonstrable effect on your health? They'll argue with you until they're blue in the face and insist that any treatment (even if it has nothing to do with weight like you fell down the stairs) be in tandem with weight loss.

 

 

 

Diets aren't entirely unnecessary.

arbitrarily cutting down on how much energy you take in is entirely unnecessary. We have ten year olds on diets. That's a bigger health epidemic' in my view than them getting too pudgy.

 

 

 

And what is wrong with people enjoying the loss of weight when they are on a diet trying to get into shape?

It's the most common way people develop eating disorders? Reducing people to managers of their own bodies, counting calories and obsessing over minute details of their physical appearance is pretty f*cked up in and of itself, even if it didn't invariably lead to some of the most lethal disorders in recent memory.

 

 

 

And by the way, it's not me telling women what to do with their bodies, it's the medical community.

No, you are telling people who they should look and how much they should eat. I don't care that a guy in a white coat said it first.

 

 

 

I'm with you on this actually. There are plenty of unhealthy habits out there. This thread isn't about tanning beds and the relevant health concerns in that department. I think people who fry their bodies in a tanning bed are just as ridiculous as people who think it's totally healthy to be obese.

So we should consider tanning physically repulsive and ridicule tanned people at every turn?

 

The point of that analogy is that it's silly to construct standards of beauty in order to control peoples' behaviour. Assuming it is unhealthy to be fat, why should people be punished for it socially, sexually, and psychologically? As a smoker I'm not told I'm unworthy of love and affection, I don't hate myself, nor am I constantly insulted. Nobody would suggest I should be.

 

 

 

It is, though. All of the medical literature says so.It is, though. All of the medical literature says so. Even having a significant amount of belly fat which may only make you considered medically "overweight" is directly correlated to increased risk of diseases. The articles are posted abovve in response to Sagacious' posts. If you are a doctor and have done some research/controlled peer review studies to determine that the medical/scientific community is all wrong, then feel free to post your research.

The literature shows that being overweight is correlated with increased risk of diseases, yes. You know what's correlated directly with decreased life expectancy and poor general health? Weight loss. Even if being thin is healthier than being fat all else being equal (which hasn't been proven), people are fat for a reason. If they try to lose weight for it's own sake, they still have the same job, the same biology, the same relationship with food, the same friends... the lifestyle and circumstances that made them fat are still there, but now they're starving themselves and they've removed a coping mechanism from their lives. It's like "never drink" sounds like sound advice, but if you're job is stressful enough, the increased stress from not unwinding with a drink can be worse for your health than drug itself.

 

Also, belly fat is the result of fat consumption.

 

 

 

Also - can one of you explain what the f*ck thin privilege is? Is that serious? People who are in good shape and exercise have privilege? That's a f*cking crock of sh*t. Thousands of men and women work their assess of to keep in good shape and eat well, and they have "privilege" because of that? They aren't born that way. They work for it. What a f*cking pile of sh*t.

Privilege is the sociological concept that some groups of people have advantages relative to other groups. The term is commonly used in the context of social inequality, particularly with regards to race, gender, age, sexual orientation, disability and social class.[1] Specific elements of privilege may be financial or material such as access to housing, education, and jobs,[1] as well as others that are emotional or psychological, such as a sense of personal self-confidence and comfort, or having a sense of belonging or worth in society.[2] It began as an academic concept, but has since become popular outside of academia.[3]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privilege_(social_inequality)

 

Thin people are considered beautiful relative to fat people, thus the advantages they have come at the expense of others, whether they work hard or not.

Edited by Melchior

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Saggy

Did you bother looking at the information the article cited? Because it's not the author saying that, it's The British Medical Journal saying it.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2223029/

 

...but by all means put more stock into studies being reported by news sites, it's not like there's an easily identifiable collusion between the weight loss industry and media to promote such stories...

 

Sex sells, so does weight loss.

 

Melchior's post really breaks out of this distractive argument anyway and brings the focus back around to the fact that fat people are treated differently for their "unhealthy" choices more than others are anyway. Really the part of the article I posted that I agree most with is "Concern Trolling". Even if you genuinely are concerned with the health effects this has, it's still not actually any of your business. Might as well be one of those guys at the checkout line that says you should only eat organic... Wait tell me you're not one of those guys.

 

I hope you were joking about the "cushion for pushing" thing, if not it's pretty insightful. You seem to be completely unable to admit or concede that some people might actually simply be attracted to a person and their weight be a secondary concern There's no rationalization like "Well she's probably more down to earth and I bet she knows how to cook" (I have actually heard people suggest this). Why can't people accept that when I look at a fatgirl and my dick gets hard, I didn't have to play a trick on myself to make it attractive, it just is. Instead people seem to be so reluctant to the idea that fat could possibly be attractive, they feel the need to act like it's a fetish, even more offensive, that I am only with that girl because I couldn't find anyone "better".

 

Realistically it is incredibly offensive. Basically, if I loved a fat girl, and I have before, it's like you're saying that love is based on a fictional attraction based on rationale... That's not how it is if you are genuinely attracted to a person, and so if I for example loved a fat woman why on earth would it be wrong to love her as she is if that's how I actually feel? Some notion that withholding that affection would some how be healthier for her?

 

See my ex would mention to me sometimes she wished I would encourage her to be thin, like she thought I wanted her to be fat. So I get the idea that praising and celebrating a fat woman's body can be misconstrued into them thinking that's the image you want them to maintain... However, as I told her,it shouldn't be about what I think is more attractive and about her health, so that idea is pretty easily corrected. In contrary, is it easy to correct the notion she must fit a societal standard of beauty to be love? Saying " Oh you would look so much sexier if you lost 50 pounds" might seem like encouragement, but how much does it carry the implication of "...so that means you are only kind of sexy now". I still managed to encourage her weight loss, but at the same time didn't make her feel less sexy, what is wrong with that?

 

Oh and if you're interested how that turned out... She got hooked on meth, lost a ton of weight and still was the same person... Only addicted to meth, and she says she was afraid to stop for so long because she knew the weight would come back and she liked never being hungry because she hated eating in front of people... So yeah it's pretty hard to say she's not healthier now that she quit even though she gained the weight back.

 

Wonder how many similar stories are told with diet pills replacing meth...

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Clem Fandango

A 'fat fetish' is the fetishisation of bigger bodies. If you like fat women but it doesn't involve food or getting stepped on you aren't a fat fetishist.

 

I read a study one, I forgot what the actual aim was, but they were studying 'fat fetishists' and how they respond to different body types, asking them to rate them in terms of how desirable they are. They noticed that 9/10 of them didn't have a preference for obese bodies, and actually rated skinny bodies higher than the general population did (that is, people who aren't attracted to fat people). They concluded that the majority of people who like a bit more junk in the trunk were less constrained by society's standards of beauty: they didn't care about big noses or bags under the eyes, who decided those were ugly anyway? The ones who did have what could appropriately be called a 'fat fetish' were also immensely less critical and more appreciative of the skinny bodies.

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Dingdongs

sorry for the late reply gents, was away the past few days.

 

 

 

Did you bother looking at the information the article cited? Because it's not the author saying that, it's The British Medical Journal saying it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2223029/

That study literally contradicts every piece of medical evidence available on obesity and health. In fact, the same group published a paper saying it isn't exaggerated (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2223031/).

 

...but by all means put more stock into studies being reported by news sites, it's not like there's an easily identifiable collusion between the weight loss industry and media to promote such stories...

They are all legitimate studies and represent the overwhelmingly majority of medical opinion on the matter. That's an indisputable fact. You can make this argument on a lot of issues but not because obesity is somehow healthy. Put all the internal medicine issues aside, the shear orthopedic damage caused by obesity is overwhelming.

 

 

Melchior's post really breaks out of this distractive argument anyway and brings the focus back around to the fact that fat people are treated differently for their "unhealthy" choices more than others are anyway. Really the part of the article I posted that I agree most with is "Concern Trolling". Even if you genuinely are concerned with the health effects this has, it's still not actually any of your business. Might as well be one of those guys at the checkout line that says you should only eat organic... Wait tell me you're not one of those guys.

It is our business because we pay for it. We all pay for each other's medical care regardless if you have insurance or don't. I say the same thing about people who smoke and drink to excess. In fact, I've said it here in a thread from a few years ago on smoking laws.

 

No, I don't eat organic stuff. I just track my daily macronutrients to add up to a caloric number based on what I'm trying to do with my bodyweight and eat whatever I want otherwise.

 

 

 

I hope you were joking about the "cushion for pushing" thing, if not it's pretty insightful. You seem to be completely unable to admit or concede that some people might actually simply be attracted to a person and their weight be a secondary concern There's no rationalization like "Well she's probably more down to earth and I bet she knows how to cook" (I have actually heard people suggest this). Why can't people accept that when I look at a fatgirl and my dick gets hard, I didn't have to play a trick on myself to make it attractive, it just is. Instead people seem to be so reluctant to the idea that fat could possibly be attractive, they feel the need to act like it's a fetish, even more offensive, that I am only with that girl because I couldn't find anyone "better".

Yes, it was a facetious comment to say the least. If you knew me outside of this section you would know I say dumb sh*t like that all the time. Anyway, that's fine for you and your ideals on attraction as well as those who agree. But by perpetuating the idea that being fat is healthy and OK, and should be actively encouraged over a healthy bodyweight, is simply wrong.

 

 

 

uld mention to me sometimes she wished I would encourage her to be thin, like she thought I wanted her to be fat. So I get the idea that praising and celebrating a fat woman's body can be misconstrued into them thinking that's the image you want them to maintain... However, as I told her,it shouldn't be about what I think is more attractive and about her health, so that idea is pretty easily corrected. In contrary, is it easy to correct the notion she must fit a societal standard of beauty to be love? Saying " Oh you would look so much sexier if you lost 50 pounds" might seem like encouragement, but how much does it carry the implication of "...so that means you are only kind of sexy now". I still managed to encourage her weight loss, but at the same time didn't make her feel less sexy, what is wrong with that?

That's great dude, nothing wrong with that at all.

 

 


Oh and if you're interested how that turned out... She got hooked on meth, lost a ton of weight and still was the same person... Only addicted to meth, and she says she was afraid to stop for so long because she knew the weight would come back and she liked never being hungry because she hated eating in front of people... So yeah it's pretty hard to say she's not healthier now that she quit even though she gained the weight back.

Wonder how many similar stories are told with diet pills replacing meth...

That's too bad, but the idea that that particular case is representative of the great amount of the population that loses weight healthfully is just irrelevant. Since you like to make quirks about what I say when discussing issues (like in the police thread), I'll do that here and say that your overreliance on small, almost irrelevant personal anecdotes is not doing you any favors.

 

As for diet pills... the fact of the matter is, they don't do the entire job for you so you really can't rely on diet pills to lose weight they way you could meth. They burn maybe 80-90 calories per serving, tops.. and that ain't going to melt the fat off of anybody.

 

 

melchior-

 

 

 

People starve themselves because thin is an ideal. If it's not socially acceptable to be fat then thin remains an ideal. Even if the whole thing is under the pretence of concern for public health.

 

And 'medically acceptable'... umm it's 'medically acceptable' to chain smoke, drink every night and ride a motorcycle at full speed around my carpark, insofar as if I tell my doctor I do those things, they either won't care, or a 'mind you own business, clipboard' will change the subject permanently. But if you're fat? Even if it's not having any demonstrable effect on your health? They'll argue with you until they're blue in the face and insist that any treatment (even if it has nothing to do with weight like you fell down the stairs) be in tandem with weight loss.

I just don't know how that's medically acceptable to chain smoke drink every night or ride motorcycles like a lunatic, and if your doctor says that stuff is fine you should probably find a new doctor. If I told my doctor I smoked, drank a lot, or rode a motorcycle around a car park like a lunatic, he would be as quick to tell me to stop those habits as he would if I were overweight.

 

Also, if you fell down the stairs and got injured while being obese, chances are the obesity aggravated the injuries. The bigger they are, the harder they fall. Obese people and orthopedic problems is a pretty well established connection. http://newsroom.aaos.org/media-resources/Press-releases/obesity-link-to-increased-risk-for-orthopaedic-conditions-and-surgical-complications.htm

 

 

 

Diets aren't entirely unnecessary.

arbitrarily cutting down on how much energy you take in is entirely unnecessary. We have ten year olds on diets. That's a bigger health epidemic' in my view than them getting too pudgy.

 

 

 

And what is wrong with people enjoying the loss of weight when they are on a diet trying to get into shape?

It's the most common way people develop eating disorders? Reducing people to managers of their own bodies, counting calories and obsessing over minute details of their physical appearance is pretty f*cked up in and of itself, even if it didn't invariably lead to some of the most lethal disorders in recent memory.

 

 

 

 

No, you are telling people who they should look and how much they should eat. I don't care that a guy in a white coat said it first.

Yes I am, with mounds of evidence behind me nevertheless.

 

 

 

So we should consider tanning physically repulsive and ridicule tanned people at every turn?

 

The point of that analogy is that it's silly to construct standards of beauty in order to control peoples' behaviour. Assuming it is unhealthy to be fat, why should people be punished for it socially, sexually, and psychologically? As a smoker I'm not told I'm unworthy of love and affection, I don't hate myself, nor am I constantly insulted. Nobody would suggest I should be.

People are punished for it socially because people have bias against fat people for various reasons. To hiring managers, they may see it as a lack of self/control self discipline. To sexual partners, most people find obesity to be highly unattractive. Psychologically. not sure where you're going at here. And as a smoker in the US Northeast or West, smoking is looked at very negatively.

 

The literature shows that being overweight is correlated with increased risk of diseases, yes. You know what's correlated directly with decreased life expectancy and poor general health? Weight loss. Even if being thin is healthier than being fat all else being equal (which hasn't been proven), people are fat for a reason. If they try to lose weight for it's own sake, they still have the same job, the same biology, the same relationship with food, the same friends... the lifestyle and circumstances that made them fat are still there, but now they're starving themselves and they've removed a coping mechanism from their lives. It's like "never drink" sounds like sound advice, but if you're job is stressful enough, the increased stress from not unwinding with a drink can be worse for your health than drug itself.

You don't need to starve yourself to lose weight. You don't need to do any of that sh*t and that's frankly a silly argument. The idea that weight loss carries equivalent health risks to being obese is just ridiculous dude. You can change your relationship with food, you can change your lifestyle that lead you to unhealthy choices... it can all be done with a bit of willpower.

 

Also, belly fat is the result of fat consumption.

That's not true at all. It's the result of overeating past your caloric maintenance (BMR)... that could be from fat macronutrients, carbohydrates, or protein.

 

 

Privilege is the sociological concept that some groups of people have advantages relative to other groups. The term is commonly used in the context of social inequality, particularly with regards to race, gender, age, sexual orientation, disability and social class.[1] Specific elements of privilege may be financial or material such as access to housing, education, and jobs,[1] as well as others that are emotional or psychological, such as a sense of personal self-confidence and comfort, or having a sense of belonging or worth in society.[2] It began as an academic concept, but has since become popular outside of academia.[3]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privilege_(social_inequality)

 

Thin people are considered beautiful relative to fat people, thus the advantages they have come at the expense of others, whether they work hard or not.

 

Sounds about right. Work hard and take care of your body, and you get societal benefits ahead of people who don't. Seems pretty fair to me.

 

Edited by Irviding

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Clem Fandango

Sounds about right. Work hard and take care of your body, and you get societal benefits ahead of people who don't. Seems pretty fair to me.

This mindset is absolutely disgusting. As if people are in complete control of every aspect of their lives and their bodies. And you still haven't explained how this isn't just arbitrarily picking on fat people. Or why society should be concerned with controlling peoples' bodies in the first place. We pay for it medicare blah blah... we have spaceships I don't give a f*ck if some c*nt needs blood pressure medication.

 

 

 

You don't need to starve yourself to lose weight. You don't need to do any of that sh*t and that's frankly a silly argument.

Yeah well people do anyway, f*ck.

 

 

 

You can change your relationship with food, you can change your lifestyle that lead you to unhealthy choices... it can all be done with a bit of willpower.

Yeah okay everyone everywhere at all times is capable of shaping their lifestyle around achieving a certain body weight.. you're talking sh*te

 

 

 

I just don't know how that's medically acceptable to chain smoke drink every night or ride motorcycles like a lunatic, and if your doctor says that stuff is fine you should probably find a new doctor. If I told my doctor I smoked, drank a lot, or rode a motorcycle around a car park like a lunatic, he would be as quick to tell me to stop those habits as he would if I were overweight

Oh ffs, when do doctors withhold medical treatment until you stop riding a motorcycle? Like if I go in there with a broken foot he won't demand I quit smoking before he puts the cast on.

 

 

 

Also, if you fell down the stairs and got injured while being obese, chances are the obesity aggravated the injuries. The bigger they are, the harder they fall. Obese people and orthopedic problems is a pretty well established connection.

so they have to make you thin for the next time you fall down the stairs? Are you not paying attention or are you that out of your depth with this issue? Because you are grasping at straws.

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Dingdongs

 

 

This mindset is absolutely disgusting. As if people are in complete control of every aspect of their lives and their bodies. And you still haven't explained how this isn't just arbitrarily picking on fat people. Or why society should be concerned with controlling peoples' bodies in the first place. We pay for it medicare blah blah... we have spaceships I don't give a f*ck if some c*nt needs blood pressure medication.

People are in control of their bodies and of their body weights. It's very, very easy to take care of yourself.. even if you are low income and can't afford a gym/have not the greatest quality food. Body weight has little to no bearing on the content of the food you eat but by and large the quantity by way of daily calorie intake. It's not arbitrarily picking on fat people. It's encouraging healthy habits. Is Michelle Obama picking on fat people with the Let's Move campaign? Is the FDA picking on smokers by putting all those ads up that disgust people away from cigarette smokers?

 

 

 

 

Yeah okay everyone everywhere at all times is capable of shaping their lifestyle around achieving a certain body weight.. you're talking sh*te

Yes, they are. Again, it really isn't very difficult. Unless you are that <1% of the population that has a genetic condition that predisposes you to being highly overweight, AND also cannot afford medication to rectify that, there's no excuse for being obese.

 

 

 

 

Oh ffs, when do doctors withhold medical treatment until you stop riding a motorcycle? Like if I go in there with a broken foot he won't demand I quit smoking before he puts the cast on.

Because your broken foot is unrelated to your smoking. If your doctor was going to perform an operation on your lungs or your veins, he'd highly encourage you to quit smoking before wasting his time carrying out said operation. Also, the doctor won't "withhold medical treatment", that's ridiculous.

 

 

 

 

so they have to make you thin for the next time you fall down the stairs? Are you not paying attention or are you that out of your depth with this issue? Because you are grasping at straws.

I'm grasping at straws? You're the one who purposefully misinterpreted that point from "obesity puts you at higher risk for orthopedic issues" to me saying "lose weight so you don't get hurt as bad next time you fall down the stairs".

 

 

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Clem Fandango

People are in control of their bodies and of their body weights. It's very, very easy to take care of yourself.. even if you are low income and can't afford a gym/have not the greatest quality food.

Is it worth addressing something that 99% of people know is complete bullsh*t? Honestly 'it's super easy to lose weight even if you're poor and literally busy all the time' what a stupid opinion.

 

 

 

It's not arbitrarily picking on fat people. It's encouraging healthy habits. Is Michelle Obama picking on fat people with the Let's Move campaign? Is the FDA picking on smokers by putting all those ads up that disgust people away from cigarette smokers?

You don't understand anything that has been said thus far, that much is clear. We're talking about the ridiculing of fat people, the constant self-hatred, lack of control and intense depression that people who don't achieve the ideal can feel. They don't even have to be fat, I've made this explicit serveral. Are you being purposefully obtuse?

 

 

 

Unless you are that <1% of the population that has a genetic condition that predisposes you to being highly overweight, AND also cannot afford medication to rectify that, there's no excuse for being obese.

lol nobody has to 'excuse' their appearance to you. You might need an excuse for being an ignorant bigot that likes to tell other people how to live.

 

 

 

Because your broken foot is unrelated to your smoking.

There are various disorders that have nothing to do with weight, where doctors will insist you lose weight to deal with it anyway. People have been rendered permanently disabled because of this, I'm not sure there's deaths but I imagine there's at least a few to add to fat phobia's body count.

 

 

 

Also, the doctor won't "withhold medical treatment", that's ridiculous.

oh sweetie

 

 

 

I'm grasping at straws? You're the one who purposefully misinterpreted that point from "obesity puts you at higher risk for orthopedic issues" to me saying "lose weight so you don't get hurt as bad next time you fall down the stairs".

It's not really reductio ad absurdum if the point is absurd to being with.

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Clem Fandango

As for whether or not thin privilege is justified (privilege is never justified, but whatever), the last time I was anything but totally thin, it was because I replaced my usual dinner of wine and drugs with sausages and mashed potatoes. Why should I get societal advantageous ahead of others for living off weed, booze, coffee and cigarettes? You haven't really explained why social privilege is the appropriate way to promote healthy living, either.

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GTA_stu

People who look after themselves more, show better self control and restraint, and are more physically and sexually appealing and less of a strain on public health system, enjoy more advantages, or "privillge" than people who don't. Sounds fair to me. I actually think not having those advantages would be unfair.

 

(privilege is never justified, but whatever)

 

Never? So someone who works very hard doesn't deserve advantages, they should have the exact same opportunities and be treated the same in every way as someone who is lazy and hardly works at all? Or a couple who worked very hard, saved up, and were smart in the choices they made shouldn't be able to provide their child with a better life than a couple who didn't? Why not?

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sivispacem

That's not privilege. Melc is referring to the notion of some people having an advantage over others based factors that aren't performance or competency related.

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GTA_stu

Well I've heard people like Melc, and even Melc himself, talk about privilege in the form of people being richer and more well off than others, and usually there isn't any acceptance of "people deserving it" because they're hard workin or competent. They seem to hate any notion of inequality whatsoever, even if the inequality is down to someone working hard and being industrious, and someone else not.

Edited by GTA_stu

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Saggy

Well I've heard people like Melc, and even Melc himself, talk about privilege in the form of people being richer and more well off than others, and usually there isn't any acceptance of "people deserving it" because they're hard workin or competent. They seem to hate any notion of inequality whatsoever, even if the inequality is down to someone working hard and being industrious, and someone else not.

Yeah but how many people actually worked for their fortune versus inheriting it? Meanwhile, there are illegal aliens in our country that walked a path more akin to Navy seal training and spend their days doing backbreaking labor in a field for two dollars an hour... They work any less hard for their meager existence? This is a different debate though, maybe you should start one on privilege. Otherwise concede that some people are given advantages over others, and due to no real effort on their part.

 

In this specific context for example... Let's say we're talking about an adolescent child. Their diet and physical activity level has been largely determined by factors outside of their control for the majority of their existence prior to this point. Sure some kids might be interested in personal fitness before this, bit I'm just talking about kids who never did anything but what their parents and school told them and are overweight before any personal intervention is made.

 

Now say this kid goes to get a physical to play sports, but he weighs too much. This is really nobody's fault, and really for safety issues must be abided by so it is not really fat shaming, but the kids who are not overweight are still priviledged in a sense because they had parents who monitored their diet and made restrictions. A lot of kid's parents are the reason they are overly dependent on sweets because you see mom's using it to comfort kids after a bad day at school or something, then we wonder how food addictions are born but point being at this point there are still differences in advantages and disadvantages for kids of one body weight of another and personal choice is largely irrelevant.

 

It's hard not to demonstrate instances of what "skinny privilege" would be at that age, and without resorting to personal anecdotes but skinny privilege is like being able to be in a class room where someone farted and not have everyone immediately assume it was you. It's subtle stuff, but by the time someone is an adult it grows into things like not having to worry about buying two plane tickets or being denied medical treatment-which yes Irv, that does happen quite a bit.

 

There's also so many compunding issues. Tell a person with back pain they have to exercise to lose weight to get back surgery... So how are they supposed to work through the excruciating pain tro exercise? I did it but I mean, I don't work full time, I'm single with no kids and had plenty of time to exercise and heal and similar to Melchior I was living off of Ramen so my caloric intake was that of a starving person. These are not ideal conditions for basically anyone.

 

Then there is a drive to try untested and dangerous procedures like lap bands and stomach stapling. Say you need shoulder surgery, so the doctor tells you, "We can't anethesize you if you're over 320 lbs," so they tell you to exercise... With a bum shoulder, but also reccomend this surgery so you get it and spend more time recovering from it than you would the shoulder surgery. I really hope the idea won't be, "Well if they weren't fat they wouldn't need shoulder surgery."

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Gay Tony

That's not privilege. Melc is referring to the notion of some people having an advantage over others based factors that aren't performance or competency related.

 

^^

 

Would juries convicting attractive people less harshly....be justified in this thinking that they work harder to be attractive and have earned that privilege?

 

Have to say that seems rather arbitrary and certainly not fair.

 

 

See where this is going?

Edited by mr toasterbutt

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Clem Fandango

 

That's not privilege. Melc is referring to the notion of some people having an advantage over others based factors that aren't performance or competency related.

 

^^

 

Would juries convicting attractive people less harshly....be justified in this thinking that they work harder to be attractive and have earned that privilege?

 

Have to say that seems rather arbitrary and certainly not fair.

 

 

See where this is going?

 

Fat people are judged more harshly by courts.

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Clem Fandango

People who look after themselves more, show better self control and restraint, and are more physically and sexually appealing and less of a strain on public health system, enjoy more advantages, or "privillge" than people who don't. Sounds fair to me.

Well aside from it being entirely arbitrary (we don't reward all good qualities with social status)? We don't live in some right-wing meritocratic wet dream where you can use social status to make everyone better people. In the real world, all division does is create social problems. Like the numerous social problems that have been brought up if you bothered to pay attention.

 

 

 

I actually think not having those advantages would be unfair.

Oh for f*ck's sake.

 

 

 

Never? So someone who works very hard doesn't deserve advantages, they should have the exact same opportunities and be treated the same in every way as someone who is lazy and hardly works at all?

No, privilege comes at the expense of others. If we're running a boat and I know how to drive one and all you know how to do is clean sh*t off the floors, we've got out jobs sorted.

 

 

 

Or a couple who worked very hard, saved up, and were smart in the choices they made shouldn't be able to provide their child with a better life than a couple who didn't? Why not?

How did the child earn those advantageous? It was an accident of birth.

 

We also have very low social mobility. The overwhelming majority of middle and upper class families have't been poor since WWII. I'm not sure why your Great Granddad whose name you don't know should get to pass advantages down to you.

 

And, wages are totally arbitrary. Wages under Capitalism aren't determined by performance, or the value of the job. This is why we have unemployment btw.

 

 

 

They seem to hate any notion of inequality whatsoever, even if the inequality is down to someone working hard and being industrious, and someone else not.

I'd bother to address the idea that 'people who work harder deserve more' if it wasn't just an ideological justification for the power of the ruling class. You're defending a meritocracy, but we don't live in one. If there's some example of human beings organising themselves along meritocratic lines that isn't simply nepotistic class division we could talk about, though as it stands I don't think the idea that people require more than their neighbour in order to get out of bed merits discussion.

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Aquilus

I say its stupid. Nobody has to accept them. Most of them are fat for a reason, because they chose to be.

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Clem Fandango

And still nobody has addressed the fact that you can have thin privilege by smoking two packs a day. Do people who smoke meth deserve their privilege?

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Clem Fandango

Nobody has to accept them.

We'll see.

 

 

 

Most of them are fat for a reason, because they chose to be.

lol

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Rented

It might sound a little rude but generally fat people are pathetic, now I am saying generally because there are some fat people who don't care neither does their love interest so if they don't bother anyone why would anyone bother them? It's their thing, whatever makes them happy you know.

 

On the other hand there are the annoying ones, they hate fit people always making excuses like "it runs in my family" or that they have a disease damn right they do, it's called being a f*cking looser.

 

I know it sounds rude, but I am not hating on fat people I am hating on those who are hating on the fit because they're too lazy to go to the gym and change so instead they spend that little energy they have on trying to get rid of fit people so they can have a chance without putting in too much effort.

 

Seriously stop being lazy and stop being a dickhead.

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