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Dingdongs

Eating disorders/body image/fat acceptance

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Dingdongs

I wanted to make a D&D topic about this rather than Gen Chat because I thnk it warrants a serious discussion. Over the past 3 years or so there has been a lot of talk about making overweight an acceptable thing that isn't stigmatized... like when planes charge obese folks for two seats since they take up two seats, or the idea that models shouldn't be skinny anymore.. basically the whole idea of body image. Of course eating disorder fits in there too because the argument can be made that people with body image issues become obsessed with their appearance and become afflicted by eating disorders.. so basically should we accept people with size 44 jeans and not identify them as overweight? What about the health concerns? Should we not look at thin models anymore but only plus size?

 

 

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GTA_stu

The fat acceptance movement is one of the most laughably stupid things humans have ever come up with. The hypocrisy in wanting to ban underweight models but encouraging the use of overweight models or "muh real women" is just eye gougingly idiotic. In terms of body image disorders, these should be welcomed, generally speaking. If some fat person feels bad for looking fat then society is doing it's job. If it's a person of normal healthy weight who feels bad, then ok that's not good. I agree with banning anorexic and unhealthily underweight models, but not models who are just naturally very skinny.

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Otter

The underlying issue of the obesity crisis is that the most accessible, instant-gratification food is bankrupt of nutrition and high in corn syrup. It's simplistic (and typically a view taken by many a fit young man before their metabolism catches up to them) to call it purely a personal responsibility issue. You are an exception to the market today if you actively seek truly healthy fare.

 

That said, I have a little stu of my own on my left shoulder that scoffs at the idea that we should praise unhealthy body types of any sort - underweight, obese, steroid abuse, etc. Given that mental health issues are intrinsically linked with these disorders I ultimately think our best foot forward is to remove shame from the equation. We need to stop evaluating the worth of people based on their physical attributes. This is not to say that we should be promoting obesity but that, for almost every intent and purpose, it doesn't bloody matter.

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GTA_stu

The underlying issue of the obesity crisis is that the most accessible, instant-gratification food is bankrupt of nutrition and high in corn syrup. It's simplistic (and typically a view taken by many a fit young man before their metabolism catches up to them) to call it purely a personal responsibility issue. You are an exception to the market today if you actively seek truly healthy fare.

 

Fast food or junk food is the cheapest, yeah, but eating healthily is still very achievable in modern countries. It's not that people are being priced out of the good food, they're just choosing the easier alternative. Maybe the government could do more, and tax unhealthy food with higher fat and sugar contents, run more campaigns and encourage a healthier lifestyle. People will always judge people by how they look, it's not just something we can change it's hardwired into us. I think you'd probably get rid of most body disatisfaction if everyone was a healthy weight anyways.

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Stephan90

Models that are so underweight, that it is unhealthy, should be banned from cat walks. Models lend their body to show the clothes of the designer and they can have a role model influence on some girls and younger women. I don't know about overweight women having that influence.

 

in general neither underweight or overweight people should not be stigmatisized. In both cases it can be a result of low self esteem and psycholigical illnesses and in the case of overweight simply a lack of health awareness. So underweight or overweight people should rather receive help offers than laughter. i don't see how this could help anyone with low self esteem.

Edited by Stephan90

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Otter

Stu, I wasn't referring to fast food in particular. Try to find a loaf of bread in the US without excessive sugar or HFCS. It's not as simple to avoid as you suggest, particularly on a budget. And of course the oft repeated mantra 'enjoy in moderation' is utterly useless if your entire diet is processed.

 

As for judging people 'being human nature', I can only assume that you give way to all of your natural tendencies, then? The same argument could be used to promote racism, ageism, sexism and even physical assault. Come off it.

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Clem Fandango

. In terms of body image disorders, these should be welcomed, generally speaking. If some fat person feels bad for looking fat then society is doing it's job.

Oh look it's the oppressortron5000 here to cut through the bullsh*t and tell it like it is. He's not scared of the liberal media's political correctness machine. He holds ni**ers- sand or otherwise- accountable when the mamby pamby bleeding hearts of the day are too scared of being called racist.

As for judging people 'being human nature', I can alone assume that you give way to all of your natural tendencies, then? The same argument could be used to promote racism, ageism, sexism and even physical assault. Come off it.

lol if anything it's human nature to view fat as an ideal, as the majority of human cultures do.

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universetwisters

I never got how folks seem to think that just because they eat healthy, that means they'll get fit and loose weight. It's as if we live in a world where exercising doesn't exist.

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GTA_stu

Stu, I wasn't referring to fast food in particular. Try to find a loaf of bread in the US without excessive sugar or HFCS. It's not as simple to avoid as you suggest, particularly on a budget. And of course the oft repeated mantra 'enjoy in moderation' is utterly useless if your entire diet is processed.

 

As for judging people 'being human nature', I can only assume that you give way to all of your natural tendencies, then? The same argument could be used to promote racism, ageism, sexism and even physical assault. Come off it.

 

Well it depends, obviously the cheap, regular, factory produced, pre-sliced loaves have a lot of crap in them, mainly to preserve them for longer but also just to make them cheaper. Over here you can also get fresh bread baked on site at every supermarket though which isn't full of all the bad stuff, they don't do that in America at places like Walmart? Have a bakery on site which just makes fresh bread "organically" without the extra preservatives and sugar etc? I'd be very surprised if U.S. supermarkets didn't have that. The prices really aren't that much higher.

 

Even on a budget, even the tightest budget going you can still manage to eat healthy, properly cooked meals. Obviously it's harder, but it's not impossible. For most people it's easily achievable, but they go for the lower quality, unhealthy food by choice because it's quicker and easier. It's a choice. There really is no excuse. The public is clearly unable to make the smart responsible choices themselves, so governments should take action, especially in places with public health care.

 

I'd like to see all unhealthy food banned from advertising, be it on TV, newspapers, bilboards or whatever. There should be much higher taxes on unhealthy foods. People who are overweight should have to contribute much higher taxes. I'd ban overweight models and ban overweight people from holding political office, being TV presenters, being teachers, policemen, doctors, nurses etc. Chris Christie and Eric Pickles would just get f*cking put out their misery tbh. I'd encourage people to join sports clubs and give tax breaks to those that do. If you got excessively obese I'd make it mandatory to detain these people and force them to lose weight and undergo counseling. Kids who are overweight would get taken away from their abusive parents.

 

It would be a glorious, healthy, happy society, with barely a fatty in existence. Having a healthy, and hopefully athletic society would have so many other advantages too. People who are fit and healthy are generally much happier and fulfilled, take better care of themselves, have better self control, are more productive, overall just better citizens with a better outlook and attitude conducive to building a good country. It'd save billions and billions too that the government currently spends on healthcare due to heart disease, weaker joints etc associated with obesity. You'd have more people walking and cycling which would be good for the environment. It'd have so many positives. It'd be glorious.

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make total destroy

In terms of body image disorders, these should be welcomed, generally speaking. If some fat person feels bad for looking fat then society is doing it's job.

m8 u're fooked

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GTA_stu

As for judging people 'being human nature', I can only assume that you give way to all of your natural tendencies, then? The same argument could be used to promote racism, ageism, sexism and even physical assault. Come off it.

 

Well all those other natural tendencies tend to result in negative consequences, so it's right to repress them. Whereas judging overweight people actually serves as a benefit. I think judging people physically is actually much more hardwired into us than the other things though and harder to change, since it is much more closely related to our survival. Judging the attractiveness of someone based purely on personality and discounting their physical aspect is a very very hard thing to do, whereas not disliking someone just because they're old or holding back on punching someone who annoys you is pretty easy.

 

 

. In terms of body image disorders, these should be welcomed, generally speaking. If some fat person feels bad for looking fat then society is doing it's job.

Oh look it's the oppressortron5000 here to cut through the bullsh*t and tell it like it is. He's not scared of the liberal media's political correctness machine. He holds ni**ers- sand or otherwise- accountable when the mamby pamby bleeding hearts of the day are too scared of being called racist.

As for judging people 'being human nature', I can alone assume that you give way to all of your natural tendencies, then? The same argument could be used to promote racism, ageism, sexism and even physical assault. Come off it.

lol if anything it's human nature to view fat as an ideal, as the majority of human cultures do.

 

 

It used to be, because being fatter meant you'd stand a better chance of surviving winter or times of scarce food. But now that's really irrelevant. Also majority of human cultures? Most places in Europe, Asia, North America, South America view fatness as negative not positive. It's only really in Africa and some Pacific islands where fatness is seen as desirable, and that's because their cultures are more primitive. Having plentiful food for them is a status symbol which means you're probably rich, it's not just a thing everyone has.

Edited by GTA_stu

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Absurdity

Fat acceptance would be entirely respectable if it were about criticising the medias role in creating eating disorders among the vunerable, but it's not about that- not at all. The fat acceptance crowd are an amount of people who consume more than they exercise and who wish to be free from the judgement for doing so. It should be renamed judgement shaming.

It's entirely something born from a capatalist culture-- that being a culture that only wants you to consume, consume, consume and feel good for doing so -- otherwise we'd just be teaching people how to be healthy, move and lead longer lives.

Edited by Rusty Balls

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ainsz

Like all my arguments, I'm basing what I say on the Oscar Wilde quote: "The whole world is based on sex, except for sex - that is about power."

 

For most, fat people have little sex appeal. Therefore, shaming them and creating a culture of negativity surrounding obesity was inevitable. In fact, I'd say sex appeal has been the bottom line for pretty much every intolerance of races and minorities from white culture and which ever other culture has waged hate over differing cultures.

 

The more years pass, the white majority cultures have grown tolerant of less sexier races and minorities but when it comes to fat people, it's easy to be less sympathetic because it's widely accepted that they could make an effort to lose weight.

 

However, the same beliefs were held against the lesbians and queers and today we're getting along just fine. Sex appeal is number one in everyone's priories, we just don't like to admit it. And body image, fashion image and overall trendiness (sex appeal) is more openly exercised as a major priority - Mainly because we don't have any real problems these days - And fat people naturally fall behind on those aspects. But let's face it, social and racial discrimination is a first world problem and social acceptance for the obese is towards the back of the line. But it will happen because we're all super progressive.

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Absurdity

Fat acceptance isn't about being "progressive"--giving more social respect to obese people just becuase were all getting nicer or something. You can lie to yourself and operate under that fantasy is you wish, but in reality-land it's just about selling more burgers, french fries and t-shirts.

Edited by Rusty Balls

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ainsz

Definitely from a corporate outlook. I mean corporations have long jumped on every social movement bandwagon. Both when it was hating on and when it was accepting. But corporations aren't starting these trends, it's activists. When they catch the public's imagination for a new movement, corporations will join right in to cash in. It's the only reason so many companies are promoting how 'green' and 'eco-friendly' they are. And from a public point of view, it is about being progressive and trendy.

 

And at least in the UK, there is already so much marketing and sub text in television promoting healthy living and weight loss. While I can agree food chains aren't batting an eye to exploiting obesity, I honestly think that has stemmed from years of customers feeding right in to it a being perfectly okay with it. The obese are cash cow happy to be milked and the nature of business takes it's course.

 

And again in the UK. McDonald's have made, albeit - shallow efforts to appeal to the new age of trendy health enthusiasts. Simply because ordering the Super XXL meal just isn't seen as trendy, cool, or sexy as it once was and therefore isn't nearly as marketable. Finally, to add to that, you could say the unhealthily obese are a dying breed (market).

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Skeever

If they are taking up multiple seats on a plane that would normally be given to other passengers, then they should be expected to pay for those seats. If they exceed the weight limit of a helicopter ride, then they put everyone on the helicopter at great risk of injury or death, and it only makes sense that they would not be allowed on the ride. It's common sense!

If they are rejected by modeling agencies or get disgusted looks because of something they can control (but choose not to) and they want something done about it, then they should actually do something about it rather than blaming society. Those who are discriminated against because of their race, gender, height, sexual preference, etc. have little to no control over the aforementioned traits, and the only thing overweight people need to do is eat healthy and exercise (I know that's easier said than done), and stick with it.

I mean hell, you never hear short people complaining about being discriminated against, and look at how society casually accepts that sort of discrimination towards them for something that they have no control over.

Edited by WinkingSkeever6

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GrandMaster Smith

I find it interesting that you barely ever see an obese person in pictures of those remote South American/African tribes.Probably because they don't have jobs where they sit on their ass in an office for 8 hours then go home and sit on the computer or in front of the t.v. for another 8 hours before sleeping another 8 hours to do it all over again the next day. A lot of these people are really fit and healthy and have very natural diets, civilized society has turned human nature completely around on it's head in a sense.

 

Skin and bone models shouldn't be idolized, but being overweight shouldn't be praised as well.. I think many people who are under/overweight just like to use excuses that puts the blame of their own laziness out beyond their control, unless you're disabled or really unhealthy it's hard to claim working out and eating healthy isn't going to work.

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UshaB

e6ae57681c094dc2d406821b33ff2d4c.jpg

 

I'm an ectomorph, and I gotta say I hate how long it takes for me to gain muscle mass.

 

Endo's find it very very hard to lose weight so I don't judge them. But for the Meso putting on fat, I won't praise that, unless I somehow know they ate trying to lose weight.

We all have one of these body type's, unless somatotype - a mixture. Just remember, some people find it harder to lose weight.

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Tyler

Given that mental health issues are intrinsically linked with these disorders I ultimately think our best foot forward is to remove shame from the equation.

 

Removing shame, and the cultural insistence that one should feel anything negative for not conforming to the ephemeral notion of beauty that happens to be popularly held, too. This argument is an aside from the one that concerns itself with individual health, though: beauty is somewhat linked to ideas of health but in the modern age and in many historical examples can be quite removed from that concept. Beauty is also something that is a little intangible on an objective or societal level, beyond strict and vague notions (funny, curvy, wealthy, quirky, whatever). If there was a more conscious move toward removing prejudice against the non-beautiful, or effort to give more solidarity to people w/r/t the idea of beauty, then we would be helping out a number of people who are sadly stuck on the dissonance of their body and the ideal body.

 

That said, health is an important issue that should also be addressed. It is a more concrete aspect and therefore will be emphasized more by those who are discomforted by the idea of beauty being an abstract concept. Beyond that though, health is a very real concern, and especially so in 2015. If I could do anything about it, I'd divorce health from beauty so as to assuage the shame felt by many who are living unhealthily (which is the majority of people in my country and yours, and many others). I don't know if that's possible, though.

 

I never got how folks seem to think that just because they eat healthy, that means they'll get fit and loose weight. It's as if we live in a world where exercising doesn't exist.

 

Exercise is very good of course, but diet is by far the most important factor of weight consistency. That is not to say exercise should or can be ignored, but it is off the mark and also just irrelevant to sarcastically scoff at those who are ardent about eating right but haven't worked out an exercise regiment.

 

That said, how many days a week do you run? How much do you walk each day? Do you lift weights? Do you stretch daily? These are rhetorical questions, don't actually answer them. I just think it's worth considering that quite a number of people do not do all of these things, and probably don't do any of them. That doesn't mean those people should feel bad, or should give up on trying to be healthy and shun the whole diet thing since they aren't committing fully-- it's precisely that all-or-nothing attitude (along with the shaming and ignorance) that leads to a situation where there is a load of cognitive dissonance, guilt, an overdose of salt, fat and sugar in two-thirds of Americans.

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Stephan90

I'm an ectomorph, and I gotta say I hate how long it takes for me to gain muscle mass.

 

Endo's find it very very hard to lose weight so I don't judge them. But for the Meso putting on fat, I won't praise that, unless I somehow know they ate trying to lose weight.

We all have one of these body type's, unless somatotype - a mixture. Just remember, some people find it harder to lose weight.

 

This bro-science about body types has no scientifical relevance. Do some research on that matter.

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Saggy

Oh man this is going to be a long one I will try not to be too redundant...

 

Lemme try to organize this up...

 

Fatspraising

Skinnyshaming

Amotivational and socieconimic intricacies

Generalizations galore

Food quality and access

BMI and gutter science...

 

Okay, fat shaming and skinnyshaming, should be the same response but they're slightly nuanced so here' the short version... It's f*cking stupid to think that shaming anyone for any type of condition--whether it be one of mental health, poor judgement or otherwise--is the way to motivate them to change. It will only have negative effects either way. I think there's a strong desire not to look at this from a medical standpoint but rather as some type of behavioral issue. That's misguided for a lot of reasons... One being it's pretty hard and arguably wrong to try to legislate behavior: If a person wants to eat donuts until they die of adult onset diabetes its their right. Is it stupid? Every bit as much as vomiting until you erode the enamel on your teeth and increase your risk of throat cancer by leaps and bounds from all the acid washing out of your pretty little mouth everyday. So how are they nuanced...

 

Well let's start with the obvious. There's not an overwhelmingly obvious and omnipresent drive and influence on young women to be "voluptuous" or otherwise overweight. I mean, there's no shortage of where you can find where it's mentioned a girl should be "slender", or "petite", and they're bombarded with these body image stereotypes relentlessly and there's strong evidence that it causes self-esteem issues. In some cases you have to wonder if it's really a mental condition, like "image dysphoria" because you literally have 12 year old girls that believe they should look like super models not realizing it's completely unrealistic, and not to mention inappropriate at that age anyway--and in a lot of cases they're striving to look like photoshopped images that aren't even real. I don't think men can honestly have a true empathy for what it's like to live with that kind of constant barrage of propoganda, telling you what you should look like, and that you should be ashamed if you don't. There is literally a 10 to 1 difference in terms of how much women hear that--and mind you well related to the issue of weight--than men are. Not to turn this into a feminist issue, but if a man is 300 lbs, he's a bro, he's a lazy dude... If a woman is 300 lbs she's a "slob" and she's "stupid". There is such a strong drive telling women exactly what to be and how to look it's no wonder they break under the pressure to fit into their molds. Then people attack--with completely misguided ideologies and logic--the notion that this utterly over-propagandized notion of conformity should be discouraged and prevented. There was a story a while back, Toys R Us got into trouble for having a Jesse Pinkman doll. Parents came out and said, "How could you have a doll that promoted drug use?" and Aaron Paul ( the actor who played the character Jesse just to clarify ) came out and said "How could you give them a doll that promotes unrealistic body image steroetypes?" (Extremely roughly paraphrased) and everybody clapped their hands and agreed with the actor who could apparently see the writing on the wall--not a behavioral psychologist or an expert but just a regular(ish) person whose voice gets exalted above others, but it's kind of hard to argue his point and no one did. That might seem irrelevant... But he was defending a show that promoted the manufacture of methaphetamine, and it seems like people cut him more credit than people suggesting we should promote celebrating the beauty of fat models than celebrating the artistic merits of a show that suggest vigalenteism-narco-trafficking. Fat... Worse than meth.

 

Now yeah, the whole... Fat praising. First and foremost, do you really think it matters? It's a drop in the f*cking bucket. So what a fat girl feels good about her body, so what? Is that so horrible compared to what I described above? I really don't think that overnight, there's going to be a society turn where girls everywhere think "Oh well, fat is in now so I'm just going to eat twinkies and get heart disease." I guess the idea is that, if people accept that fat people are beautiful too, that they might start f*cking and stop trying to not be fat or something. Newsflash, that's like reality dude, and there's plenty of men and women out there who are fat and gettin' some whether it be casual or something committed. So this notion that we need to reinforce the idea that fat is bad in order to motivate people to be "desirable" is just a logical fallacy, reinforced by another fallacy that the only reason they would want to be healthy is so they would be desirable to get laid. How utterly vain and daft are you people?

 

Okay where am I at... Oh people are just lazy and don't want to eat right and everyone can afford to. Okay so, I'm not sure who thought up this non-sense but Otter is absolutely on the right track. 90% of our food is jam packed with sugar and calories from HFCS that doesn't need to be there and makes serving sizes so small that people are perpetually hungry and overeat not because they're "weak willed" but because they're still friggin' hungry. Look on the box of Pop Tarts or Hot Pockets and tell me I'm wrong. The fact is with our foods, there is WAY too much calories in what is basically nothing, like a handful size of food and so no wonder most people over-eat. People like to eat, but 50 years ago our food wasn't jam packed with sugar. You could eat a roll and consume like 1/3 of the calories as you would with say "enriched" white bread or something like that. Now there is a way around it, you can buy "whole" foods, "organics", so on and so forth but that's where the cost argument comes in and I believe anyone that says that it's easy to eat right without spending much is generally speaking either speaking from a position of greater monetary advantage or just aren't actually aware how little most others spend on food. I often hear the idea of "Well it's easy to eat organic and all natural on $200 a week for food," and I laugh as most people I know that are say single adults with no kids get like $160 on food stamps a month--a month. Then ask yourself how many are disabled, and that only pays like $700 a month, so where you going to get that $200 a week for food? Beyond that it's just narrow minded to say, "Oh everyone has the time to cook healthy," when the other factoid about welfare is that most of the people receiving it are children and can't cook themselves--I suppose their parents are just supposed to find time and if not they're stupid and irresponsible. Hmm maybe we should just sterilize them... People attribute way too much to laziness just because they don't understand their own position of advantage.

 

Hmm let's see where am I at? Generalizations... Well I covered that a little bit, but not specially the ones that bother me. The ones that bother me are more systemic and will compliment the BMI topic. Basically, people have some absurd notions about overweight people, thinking things like diabetes is imminent, that they just spend their time eating and never exercise, one thing after the other and I'm not really sure where people get it from other than the whole fatshaming thing and the fact that there are lazy people in the world, and fat does often come with lazy. On the other hand though, there's quite a bit of people out there who are overweight for a variety reasons, a lot of which honestly most physicians would have a hard time calling "unhealthy"--unless apparently if wanting to f*ck them was a status of physical health. A lot are athletes, and I myself have always been overweight and so am more aware of certain generalizations, I've kind of "collected" them in my consciousness over time. People think fat people can't walk long distances, or stand for long periods of time, or gotta ride through WalMart on a scooter and it's just ignorant. In the meantime, people only seem to consider the idea that people are fat and only get fatter, not that someone who is fat might have been losing weight. It's not like an over-night thing, and it's like such a double-think-like re-inforced thing where if you see someone fat running you think "Oh good luck losing weight," when they might just be jogging for their health or to pass a physical or something. I don't know, there's a lot, but as with anything I think the reason you don't hear about you know, fat people who are healthy and lead active lives and stuff is because that's not interesting and that's not what is focused on and that's where the BMI sh*t kind of comes in...

 

Somewhere along the line, some genius ( I say sarcastically ) figured that if you took the quotient of someone's body mass and their height that you could somehow make extraploations about their health. So based on this notion, they started measuring BMI, and then they started culling statistics. Over the years, if you had a heart attack you got marked down if your BMI was 30 or higher and then retroactively people come back and look at these records and spot trends and correlations saying "Well see, most of these dead folk that had diabetes also had BMI over this much, so we should probably call this BMI overweight," and that's all it was ever really supposed to be... An index. It wasn't until later that people started saying a BMI greater than 25 was "fat" and then you started adding in grades in between... Instead of "overweight" you had "obese" and then "morbidly" obese and these terms had their own medical reasoning--overweight is a classification, obese is a medication condition, and the morbid qualifier is obvious. However, society, built our own interpretations of that and related to them basically to varying levels of body size and how fat a person is. So to be more crass, and "overweight" person is just husky or chubby but an "obese" or "morbidly obese" person is "fat".

 

Now over time the thing that happened not only with people in society, but within the medical community is that over time they would see more people with BMIs of a certain number come in with one associated illness or another, and they would start stereotyping thinking all "fat" people will have this condition or that they are predisposed to it. I still have doctors act like it's a miracle that I don't have diabetes because I'm 330 lbs, and it's like, "Oh yeah well when you don't drink a gallon of soda a day and exercise some it's easy to stave that off." I don't have high cholesterol or high blood pressure either and so in a lot of ways I'm in fact "healthy" in ways that people would assume I am unhealthy. Now obviously as time goes on those conditions take their toll, I don't like being say 420 lbs which is the heaviest I've been--I was mobile and active but it's like, when smokers say they have to quit because they get winded walking across a parking lot that's when you realize you have to make your own set of changes. People do that stuff every day, and I think one thing people don't get credit for is that a lot of people in society who aren't overweight probably once were but we don't talk about them, and we don't talk about people who don't ride around in hover rounds or take escalators instead of the stairs but they're out there.

 

Moving back to the BMI topic though the problem is this direct correlation between what value someone is on in the index and their actual overall health. Like I said a lot of athletes are considered overweight, Lance Armstrong even was at one point, and there's so many more different metrics by which to measure someone's overall health that needs to be considered that to base it on the BMI alone is just asinine. Really the BMI is more useful in statistical analysis when it comes to you know, health insurance companies screwing you over, than it actually is to determine your level of health.

 

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Clem Fandango

[confused rambling]

 

Whatever, it isn't natural to hate on fat people. First of all, we don't have natural, hardwired responses to industrialisation. Secondly, the specific cultural factors that led to fatphobia in the West have been traced and studied, so a random hunch you pulled out your pocket is worthless. In the Sinosphere fat is specifically viewed as gross and evidence of poor self control or whatever, and that view predates in the Industrial Revolution by hundred of years. In the West it isn't that fat is viewed as disgusting per se, it's that thinness is considered ideal and a an expression of status, especially for women, and women are punished for not meeting this standard- of note is that the West was already balls deep into industrialisation by this point.. The actual mindset that went into this is quite interesting, it has to do with sport as a status symbol beginning in the early 20th century and the subsequent rise of healthism, the relationship between food and sex in Western culture (chocolate is sexy for some reason) and the way wealthy women are treated as commodities that reflect their husbands status. Not that you give a f*ck, you're simply concerned with defending injustice without even trying to understand it.

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Saggy

 

[confused rambling]

 

Whatever, it isn't natural to hate on fat people. First of all, we don't have natural, hardwired responses to industrialisation. Secondly, the specific cultural factors that led to fatphobia in the West have been traced and studied, so a random hunch you pulled out your pocket is worthless. In the Sinosphere fat is specifically viewed as gross and evidence of poor self control or whatever, and that view predates in the Industrial Revolution by hundred of years. In the West it isn't that fat is viewed as disgusting per se, it's that thinness is considered ideal and a an expression of status, especially for women, and women are punished for not meeting this standard- of note is that the West was already balls deep into industrialisation by this point.. The actual mindset that went into this is quite interesting, it has to do with sport as a status symbol beginning in the early 20th century and the subsequent rise of healthism, the relationship between food and sex in Western culture (chocolate is sexy for some reason) and the way wealthy women are treated as commodities that reflect their husbands status. Not that you give a f*ck, you're simply concerned with defending injustice without even trying to understand it.

 

It's wild how societies have decided what is "sexy" and what isn't and you don't necessarily need to put it in a historical scope, or about fat. I watched a documentary about breasts lately--yeah right must have been so hard to get me to watch that--and it turns out Western culture sexualizes and treats them as an erogenous area of the body far more than other cultures ( especially primitive cultures ) and they actually find our obsession with them to be funny. I mean to some people our breast worship is as weird to them as people putting circular discs in their lower lips is to us. I'd saying gauging their ears but then all the hipsters started doing that...

 

Right now Mexico is kind of turning to an earlier point in history where fat is desirable because it demonstrates a certain level of socioeconomic comfort--not status. Because it's not so much about "Well that person is fat so they must be wealthy," as much as it is, "Well that person is fat so they probably have a nice place," same principle in general but slightly different. It's kind of weird honestly, it actually plays out more in the homosexual demographic--the reason I know is because I've had people from Mexico tell me I should go get a sugar daddy lmao *cringes* Anyway there's really no rule book for what is attractive and sought out in society. I could be down in Mexico as pampered as any super model right now apparently lol

 

Western society is often times so warped into believing that fat is not sexy though that they consider someone who is attracted to a fat person to be a fetishist. Which personally I find really insulting... The first girl I ever slept with was fat, and so I just kind of levitated to that as my "type" but then I hear people tell me, "You know you don't have to f*ck fat girls just because you're fat too," as if I'm not doing it out of choice. I told my friend the other day, "I've never really been with a skinny girl," (meaning like magazine-model skinny) and he's like "Ohh I'm sorry," as if it was something I said in regret. Then he just had to inquire how heavy the smallest girl I've been with was and it's just remarkable like... I wonder if he actually knows what he's really attracted to, or just pays attention to what society tells him to be attracted to.

 

I think you nailed it though. We want to punish women for not living up to the roles and expectations we've set for them. So we should certainly not have sex with a fat girl unless you know--we're desperate or a fetishist--and certainly shouldn't ever call her "beautiful". That crass little phrase, "Hey fat girls need love to," comes to mind... Because no one said they didn't, but just that utterance is like admitting that there is such an unwritten rule. I think sadly instead of progressing away from this, society is advancing this to apply these standards to men too.

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Dingdongs

It's accurate that in past times, societies considered fatness to be attractive and a marker of wealth, but people also routinely died of old age at 50 then, so I'm not entirely convinced it's a relevant thing to even consider when discussing this. The fact is, not being fat is healthy, and being fat is not healthy. I think I agree with most of what has been said by everybody here, though. This movement wherein women are posting pictures of themselves weighing in at 280 lbs and saying that they are beautiful the way they are and won't change for anybody, that's fine. If they want to be idiots with their health and look like sh*t, whatever. I'm just not happy with how that is somehow being considered an empowering and wonderful thing, and I believe it can lead to a slippery slope when we are already, at least in the US, struggling with obesity not declining.

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Saggy

It's accurate that in past times, societies considered fatness to be attractive and a marker of wealth, but people also routinely died of old age at 50 then, so I'm not entirely convinced it's a relevant thing to even consider when discussing this. The fact is, not being fat is healthy, and being fat is not healthy. I think I agree with most of what has been said by everybody here, though. This movement wherein women are posting pictures of themselves weighing in at 280 lbs and saying that they are beautiful the way they are and won't change for anybody, that's fine. If they want to be idiots with their health and look like sh*t, whatever. I'm just not happy with how that is somehow being considered an empowering and wonderful thing, and I believe it can lead to a slippery slope when we are already, at least in the US, struggling with obesity not declining.

 

I hate trying to quote and reply to individual points in a post but I keep making too big a reply and repeating myself so bare with me...

 

 

 

It's accurate that in past times, societies considered fatness to be attractive and a marker of wealth, but people also routinely died of old age at 50 then, so I'm not entirely convinced it's a relevant thing to even consider when discussing this

 

Well when I was pointing this out, it wasn't so much as an attempt to justify it, as much as I was trying to point out there is no real universal beauty standard, only the one an individual perceive's to be set in their own respective society.

 

 

 

The fact is, not being fat is healthy, and being fat is not healthy.

 

No, that's not a fact that's another generalization. Body mass isn't deterministic of overall health, there are just some associated health risks that have shown to have a higher probability in correlation to BMI--but I already talked about that whole issue. Just think about it, a 40 year old guy who is of a suitable weight could have a high cholesterol level and die of a heart attack while a man that is fat could live to be 75 if he has no associative heart disease. You ever heard of Jim Fixx? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Fixx Babe Ruth lived to be older than him... Hell my great-uncle I guess you could say, lived to be 60-70 or something and was apparently very overweight, whereas his brother ( my grandfather ) joined the Navy and swam laps and still wound up dying from an aortic anuerism.

 

 

 

This movement wherein women are posting pictures of themselves weighing in at 280 lbs and saying that they are beautiful the way they are and won't change for anybody, that's fine. If they want to be idiots with their health and look like sh*t, whatever.

 

Yeah see, I already covered the health idea... But right there you're showing you're entrenched in this societal conditioning to just assume she looks like sh*t based on her weight, and that everyone else should think she looks like sh*t too... I'm not sure why people insist on doing this except for the misuided idea that it's like tough love or "shaming" in order to steer them in the right direction...

 

 

 

I'm just not happy with how that is somehow being considered an empowering and wonderful thing, and I believe it can lead to a slippery slope when we are already, at least in the US, struggling with obesity not declining.

 

Why is it a bad thing to be accepting women for their bodies? I don't think anyone is actually saying to impressionable young girls, "Hey you should get really fat," but there's a whole lot of people telling them to be thin, and not enough telling them to just feel beautiful as they are and that'st he real problem more than our increase in obesity. You're talking about what-ifs when you're talking about obesity rates, because it doesn't necessarily mean every person who is overweight will ever even have a health complication at all, and meanwhile people who are of an "appropriate" weight may still have all the same conditions happen. Meanwhile in this hypothetical chain of thought full of fear uncertainty and doubt, there are young girls actually starving themselves or binging and purging and it's because of a very traceable pattern of society imposing unrealistic expectations of body image on them. So on the one hand, if a large woman posts a picture and she is praised as beautiful then it sends the message to people dealing with their body weight that they are beautiful too, but if you try to take a "tough love" approach and try to tell a large woman she isn't beautiful because of her weight then you're basically telling any young woman they're not beautiful either. I guess in a simpler, more idealistic way of saying it... If we don't have anything nice to say we shouldn't be saying anything at all.

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Dingdongs

 

 

No, that's not a fact that's another generalization. Body mass isn't deterministic of overall health, there are just some associated health risks that have shown to have a higher probability in correlation to BMI--but I already talked about that whole issue. Just think about it, a 40 year old guy who is of a suitable weight could have a high cholesterol level and die of a heart attack while a man that is fat could live to be 75 if he has no associative heart disease. You ever heard of Jim Fixx? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Fixx Babe Ruth lived to be older than him... Hell my great-uncle I guess you could say, lived to be 60-70 or something and was apparently very overweight, whereas his brother ( my grandfather ) joined the Navy and swam laps and still wound up dying from an aortic anuerism.

Body mass index is not, no. But body fat is. Sorry, but trying to discredit BMI in order to prove that fatness is not an unhealthy thing is ridiculous. I agree with you - BMI is silly because it doesn't take lean mass into account and is highly general. But if somebody has 30%+ bodyfat, trying to argue that is healthy is absolutely ridiculous. Just like pointing out anomalies of people who lived to their 70s despite being fat and pointing out people who died at age 40 but were in great shape. That's fine and dandy. But if we look at the overall statistics, obesity is a leading cause of a laundry list of ailments and is not healthy. Even having a significant amount of belly fat alone is enough to put you at as much health risk as smoking cigarettes (http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/mens-health/in-depth/belly-fat/art-20045685)



 

Why is it a bad thing to be accepting women for their bodies? I don't think anyone is actually saying to impressionable young girls, "Hey you should get really fat," but there's a whole lot of people telling them to be thin, and not enough telling them to just feel beautiful as they are and that'st he real problem more than our increase in obesity. You're talking about what-ifs when you're talking about obesity rates, because it doesn't necessarily mean every person who is overweight will ever even have a health complication at all, and meanwhile people who are of an "appropriate" weight may still have all the same conditions happen. Meanwhile in this hypothetical chain of thought full of fear uncertainty and doubt, there are young girls actually starving themselves or binging and purging and it's because of a very traceable pattern of society imposing unrealistic expectations of body image on them. So on the one hand, if a large woman posts a picture and she is praised as beautiful then it sends the message to people dealing with their body weight that they are beautiful too, but if you try to take a "tough love" approach and try to tell a large woman she isn't beautiful because of her weight then you're basically telling any young woman they're not beautiful either. I guess in a simpler, more idealistic way of saying it... If we don't have anything nice to say we shouldn't be saying anything at all.

 

We should, though. Being a fat f*cking tank is not healthy nor it is something to aspire to. And the same goes for women the size of Kate Moss. I agree with you that we see body image issues in young girls wherein they aspire to become as thin as humanly possibly and purge in order to achieve that. The way to deal with that is not to say that it's ok to be a 5 1 women and weigh 235 lbs.

Edited by Irviding

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Saggy

 

No, that's not a fact that's another generalization. Body mass isn't deterministic of overall health, there are just some associated health risks that have shown to have a higher probability in correlation to BMI--but I already talked about that whole issue. Just think about it, a 40 year old guy who is of a suitable weight could have a high cholesterol level and die of a heart attack while a man that is fat could live to be 75 if he has no associative heart disease. You ever heard of Jim Fixx? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Fixx Babe Ruth lived to be older than him... Hell my great-uncle I guess you could say, lived to be 60-70 or something and was apparently very overweight, whereas his brother ( my grandfather ) joined the Navy and swam laps and still wound up dying from an aortic anuerism.

Body mass index is not, no. But body fat is. Sorry, but trying to discredit BMI in order to prove that fatness is not an unhealthy thing is ridiculous. I agree with you - BMI is silly because it doesn't take lean mass into account and is highly general. But if somebody has 30%+ bodyfat, trying to argue that is healthy is absolutely ridiculous. Just like pointing out anomalies of people who lived to their 70s despite being fat and pointing out people who died at age 40 but were in great shape. That's fine and dandy. But if we look at the overall statistics, obesity is a leading cause of a laundry list of ailments and is not healthy. Even having a significant amount of belly fat alone is enough to put you at as much health risk as smoking cigarettes (http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/mens-health/in-depth/belly-fat/art-20045685)

 

 

 

 

Why is it a bad thing to be accepting women for their bodies? I don't think anyone is actually saying to impressionable young girls, "Hey you should get really fat," but there's a whole lot of people telling them to be thin, and not enough telling them to just feel beautiful as they are and that'st he real problem more than our increase in obesity. You're talking about what-ifs when you're talking about obesity rates, because it doesn't necessarily mean every person who is overweight will ever even have a health complication at all, and meanwhile people who are of an "appropriate" weight may still have all the same conditions happen. Meanwhile in this hypothetical chain of thought full of fear uncertainty and doubt, there are young girls actually starving themselves or binging and purging and it's because of a very traceable pattern of society imposing unrealistic expectations of body image on them. So on the one hand, if a large woman posts a picture and she is praised as beautiful then it sends the message to people dealing with their body weight that they are beautiful too, but if you try to take a "tough love" approach and try to tell a large woman she isn't beautiful because of her weight then you're basically telling any young woman they're not beautiful either. I guess in a simpler, more idealistic way of saying it... If we don't have anything nice to say we shouldn't be saying anything at all.

 

We should, though. Being a fat f*cking tank is not healthy nor it is something to aspire to. And the same goes for women the size of Kate Moss. I agree with you that we see body image issues in young girls wherein they aspire to become as thin as humanly possibly and purge in order to achieve that. The way to deal with that is not to say that it's ok to be a 5 1 women and weigh 235 lbs.

 

 

Why is that not the way to deal with it? What is? Surely you're not saying the current trend is ideal?

 

Interesting you bring up smoking. Why do you think there's more of a push to discourage women being fat and trying to point out the health risks in that... Then there is for virtually any other health risks? You notice how there's not a huge amount of people coming around speaking out against tanning ( there are some but not nearly as much compared to this ) because it causes skin cancer?

 

My point is that being fat is not a health condition in and of itself which is what it seems people want to assume and you're still not even getting the fact that that laundry list of ailments are things fat people are at higher risk for, predisposed to, not necessarily something that they will have. You're the one being ridiculous if you really think that a percentage of body fat makes a person unhealthy, it's disease that makes people unhealthy and it's weight that makes people more prone to develop those diseases, I'm not even disputing that. However, look at sumo wrestlers, power lifters, hell even just average people can have a large amount of body fat and be on paper "healthier" than the skinny person next to them. Myself for example, I'm 330 lbs and I'm not sure how much percentage of that is body fat but we'll just say "a lot"; I don't have high cholesterol, don't have high blood sugar, don't have high blood pressure, so on and so forth. Can you really say that I'm very unhealthy or that you are perfectly healthy? My weight imposes some extra burden on my bones so I'm more at risk for developing skeletal or muscular issues, but can you actually say that people who aren't overweight aren't at risk for developing these types of illnesses too? You see construction workers blow out their knees from being on them all damn day,people screw up their back, etc. How about GI issues, I know plenty of skinny people with IBS or something from their eating habits--and that's not even getting into the discussion of people who have destroyed their livers and kidneys with various medications and drugs including alcohol. There's really no health condition that is mutually exclusive to fat people even if the percent likelihood it will occur is greater.

 

Anyway, my point is you probably have lots of behavior that will present itself as a possibly health risk--most people do. That's why medical professionals are urging early screening, because cancer doesn't give a sh*t if you're fat or not. Long story short I think this idea of pointing out how unhealthy it is, is just an excuse, like putting a reason out of the hat to have a problem with it. If we're going to start arguing about people's behavior and life choices based on the possible health risks, women deciding they look good enough at 250 lbs to be photographed and feel sexy is like on the bottom of the list of sh*t we should be worrying about. I mean, maybe we could convince pregnant women not to smoke or drink first? Just hard to believe you're really more concerned about whether a fat girl has a donut at any given time, except when it's necessary in order to discourage her choice of body image.

 

Here's a great way I think to expose what this is all really about...

 

Go pick up a muscle and fitness magazine. See those guys with the muscles bigger than your heads and veins that look like they have veins sticking out? Did you know that having that much muscle mass has as many associative risks with being overweight or underweight or any other less-than-optimal body choice? (http://www.daveywaveyfitness.com/exercises/myth-bodybuilders-are-healthy http://www.healthline.com/health/dangers-teen-bodybuilding http://military-fitness.military.com/2013/02/does-bodybuilding-destroy-your-heart.html) Half the men develop steroid problems, and yes there is a problem with young men in highschool taking on bodybuilding and getting on steroids. The body isn't supposed to have that much muscle anymore than it's supposed to have that much fat and people cause great injury to themselves. On top of that the supplements used are often very bad for the heart, etc.

 

So where is the big outcry about men not being unhealthy like this? Most people aren't attracted to their physique because they're so damn muscly and veiny so it's just as much as a "distasteful" standard as being fat, there's lots of health risks, but yet there's no group of people out there saying "You're stupid for doing that to yourself and taking pictures of yourself being proud of it sends the wrong message to kids."

 

Ready for the big surprise? Female body building is far more discouraged than male body building. It's like they ignored all the associated health risks when men were doing it, but when women started everybody suddenly became very health conscious of it. Telling them, "You shouldn't do that because it's bad for their health," when in reality it's "You shouldn't do that because now you don't look like what I think is pretty." You see? We don't really give two sh*ts when it's a guy making unhealthy life choices, and at the same time when it comes to a girl being underweight we don't lecture her about those associative health risks. It's only women who dare to challenge the beauty standard that get reminded they're being "unhealthy".

 

This is what sends the message to young girls, "You have to be skinny and pretty no matter what," and the only thing that will stop it is for society to quit telling people what they should look like, period. There's other ways to address health issues, most of them far more effective than trying to make someone feel bad about it. So when you see a 250 lb woman in a magazine that's feeling sexy, what is the real benefit of tearing her down and telling her she's being unhealthy and irresponsible? Why can't as a society we start saying more, "It's great you feel as beautiful as you really are, but you should consider your health because we want to see more of you." Obviously society will never be nice enough to say supportive sh*t like that, but why does it have to be "What are you stupid? You look terrible and you should believe you look terrible and if you don't lose weight you're worthless to us."

Edited by SagaciousKJB

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Dingdongs
Interesting you bring up smoking. Why do you think there's more of a push to discourage women being fat and trying to point out the health risks in that... Then there is for virtually any other health risks? You notice how there's not a huge amount of people coming around speaking out against tanning ( there are some but not nearly as much compared to this ) because it causes skin cancer?

That just isn't true. There's a huge movement against smoking. The Let's Move campaign doesn't target fat women, it targets childhood obesity.

 

 

 

My point is that being fat is not a health condition in and of itself which is what it seems people want to assume and you're still not even getting the fact that that laundry list of ailments are things fat people are at higher risk for, predisposed to, not necessarily something that they will have. You're the one being ridiculous if you really think that a percentage of body fat makes a person unhealthy, it's disease that makes people unhealthy and it's weight that makes people more prone to develop those diseases, I'm not even disputing that. However, look at sumo wrestlers, power lifters, hell even just average people can have a large amount of body fat and be on paper "healthier" than the skinny person next to them. Myself for example, I'm 330 lbs and I'm not sure how much percentage of that is body fat but we'll just say "a lot"; I don't have high cholesterol, don't have high blood sugar, don't have high blood pressure, so on and so forth. Can you really say that I'm very unhealthy or that you are perfectly healthy? My weight imposes some extra burden on my bones so I'm more at risk for developing skeletal or muscular issues, but can you actually say that people who aren't overweight aren't at risk for developing these types of illnesses too? You see construction workers blow out their knees from being on them all damn day,people screw up their back, etc. How about GI issues, I know plenty of skinny people with IBS or something from their eating habits--and that's not even getting into the discussion of people who have destroyed their livers and kidneys with various medications and drugs including alcohol. There's really no health condition that is mutually exclusive to fat people even if the percent likelihood it will occur is greater.

Powerlifters and sumo wrestlers do training to take care of themselves to alleviate the concern of those health issues. I know because I am a powerlifter. I'm injured now but when I compete I compete at 181 or 196. I know guys who compete at 272+ and they can out run and out cardio plenty of folks. I understand all of your points here but it doesn't change the fact that obesity is a highly unhealthy thing and at the end of the day, statistically, it is a significant concern. There is absolutely no defense for being overweight other than temporarily, say after pregnancy, recovering from an operation, even some emotional stuff... but it is unhealthy. These are the facts that are widely agreed upon by the medical community...

 

 

 

Anyway, my point is you probably have lots of behavior that will present itself as a possibly health risk--most people do. That's why medical professionals are urging early screening, because cancer doesn't give a sh*t if you're fat or not. Long story short I think this idea of pointing out how unhealthy it is, is just an excuse, like putting a reason out of the hat to have a problem with it. If we're going to start arguing about people's behavior and life choices based on the possible health risks, women deciding they look good enough at 250 lbs to be photographed and feel sexy is like on the bottom of the list of sh*t we should be worrying about. I mean, maybe we could convince pregnant women not to smoke or drink first? Just hard to believe you're really more concerned about whether a fat girl has a donut at any given time, except when it's necessary in order to discourage her choice of body image.

Cancer does give a sh*t if you're fat or not, though. http://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/obesity/obesity-fact-sheet#q3------- I'm concerned with people who believe that it's alright to be significantly overweight and stress the medical system for the ailments they get in their later life. If you are 320 lbs and you have no health concerns, that's great. I would advise you to lose some weight though because if you don't have high blood pressure, you are going to develop orthopedic issues and you're at a significantly higher risk for pretty much every medical condition in the book. Just because you are fine now doesn't mean that in 10 years you will be. I will guarantee you you are a statistical anomaly for being totally healthy and carrying that much weight when you age.

 

 

 

o pick up a muscle and fitness magazine. See those guys with the muscles bigger than your heads and veins that look like they have veins sticking out? Did you know that having that much muscle mass has as many associative risks with being overweight or underweight or any other less-than-optimal body choice? (http://www.daveywave...ers-are-healthy http://www.healthlin...en-bodybuilding http://military-fitn...our-heart.html) Half the men develop steroid problems, and yes there is a problem with young men in highschool taking on bodybuilding and getting on steroids. The body isn't supposed to have that much muscle anymore than it's supposed to have that much fat and people cause great injury to themselves. On top of that the supplements used are often very bad for the heart, etc.

That's not true at all. Guys that are 300 lbs off season on steroids 365/a year for competitive purposes, yeah, they are as unhealthy as an overweight person. The article you pointed to from DaveyWave is referring to bodybuilders AT CONTEST TIME, so that is for about 48 hours when they are on stage. Yes, at that time they are extremely dehydrated and on practical starvation diet to look as good as possible on stage. That is not the entire year. Your average natural bodybuilder is world's healthier than most folks, especially with all the evidence coming out now that strength training is almost all around a better form of fitness than whittling away on the treadmill for an hour everyday. Your other article is about the danger's of teen bodybuilding under the age of 16, which in my view is a complete load of f*cking bullsh*t because there is quite literally zero evidence that weight lifting stunts growth. I have heard a conservative number of age 12 to begin weight training and I think that is fair. Either way, your article is in reference to people under 16 so it holds no weight here. That third article says that competitive bodybuilders who use steroids are at risk of heart problems (not in dispute) and that you should use supplements to avoid developing heart problems. Great, cool - not seeing how that shows that people who exercise are "just as unhealthy" as overweight folks.

 

 

 

So where is the big outcry about men not being unhealthy like this?

Because it's not true and it's a bunch of crap. Also, I would say there are plenty out there who make comments about male pro bodybuilders (Jay Cutler, Phil Heath, Kai Greene, etc) being too big and unattractive/unhealthy. Which is true... they aren't healthy. They're professional athletes and are using steroids to achieve that look... sort of like any NFL player. Nobody points to them as being epitomes of health, at least orthopedic-speaking.

 

 

 

Ready for the big surprise? Female body building is far more discouraged than male body building. It's like they ignored all the associated health risks when men were doing it, but when women started everybody suddenly became very health conscious of it. Telling them, "You shouldn't do that because it's bad for their health," when in reality it's "You shouldn't do that because now you don't look like what I think is pretty." You see? We don't really give two sh*ts when it's a guy making unhealthy life choices, and at the same time when it comes to a girl being underweight we don't lecture her about those associative health risks. It's only women who dare to challenge the beauty standard that get reminded they're being "unhealthy".

Women bodybuilders are considered unhealthy because competitively, at the pro level, they use hormones to achieve their look. One of my good friends is a female competitive bodybuilder (natural) that doesn't and I will bet you anything she is a lot healthier than pretty much any woman out there. When she's at that last week before contest, yeah the food gets cut and water cut, but that's one week before contest. It's not year round. Furthermore, I would agree that that challenges the beauty standard, but hey, they aren't carrying 200 lbs of fat on them and putting themselves at a health risk while looking in the mirror saying they're just as beautiful as a Victoria's Secret model.

 

 

 

This is what sends the message to young girls, "You have to be skinny and pretty no matter what," and the only thing that will stop it is for society to quit telling people what they should look like, period. There's other ways to address health issues, most of them far more effective than trying to make someone feel bad about it. So when you see a 250 lb woman in a magazine that's feeling sexy, what is the real benefit of tearing her down and telling her she's being unhealthy and irresponsible? Why can't as a society we start saying more, "It's great you feel as beautiful as you really are, but you should consider your health because we want to see more of you." Obviously society will never be nice enough to say supportive sh*t like that, but why does it have to be "What are you stupid? You look terrible and you should believe you look terrible and if you don't lose weight you're worthless to us."

Because she is healthy and irresponsible. That isn't something that should be encouraged. Literally, that is the same exact f*cking thing as saying that we shouldn't tear people down for using cigarettes as a glamour statement. I wouldn't say they're worthless to us, but I would say they are costing society by perpetuating an unhealthy image.

Edited by Irviding

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Saggy

 

 

 

Interesting you bring up smoking. Why do you think there's more of a push to discourage women being fat and trying to point out the health risks in that... Then there is for virtually any other health risks? You notice how there's not a huge amount of people coming around speaking out against tanning ( there are some but not nearly as much compared to this ) because it causes skin cancer?

That just isn't true. There's a huge movement against smoking. The Let's Move campaign doesn't target fat women, it targets childhood obesity.

 

 

 

My point is that being fat is not a health condition in and of itself which is what it seems people want to assume and you're still not even getting the fact that that laundry list of ailments are things fat people are at higher risk for, predisposed to, not necessarily something that they will have. You're the one being ridiculous if you really think that a percentage of body fat makes a person unhealthy, it's disease that makes people unhealthy and it's weight that makes people more prone to develop those diseases, I'm not even disputing that. However, look at sumo wrestlers, power lifters, hell even just average people can have a large amount of body fat and be on paper "healthier" than the skinny person next to them. Myself for example, I'm 330 lbs and I'm not sure how much percentage of that is body fat but we'll just say "a lot"; I don't have high cholesterol, don't have high blood sugar, don't have high blood pressure, so on and so forth. Can you really say that I'm very unhealthy or that you are perfectly healthy? My weight imposes some extra burden on my bones so I'm more at risk for developing skeletal or muscular issues, but can you actually say that people who aren't overweight aren't at risk for developing these types of illnesses too? You see construction workers blow out their knees from being on them all damn day,people screw up their back, etc. How about GI issues, I know plenty of skinny people with IBS or something from their eating habits--and that's not even getting into the discussion of people who have destroyed their livers and kidneys with various medications and drugs including alcohol. There's really no health condition that is mutually exclusive to fat people even if the percent likelihood it will occur is greater.

Powerlifters and sumo wrestlers do training to take care of themselves to alleviate the concern of those health issues. I know because I am a powerlifter. I'm injured now but when I compete I compete at 181 or 196. I know guys who compete at 272+ and they can out run and out cardio plenty of folks. I understand all of your points here but it doesn't change the fact that obesity is a highly unhealthy thing and at the end of the day, statistically, it is a significant concern. There is absolutely no defense for being overweight other than temporarily, say after pregnancy, recovering from an operation, even some emotional stuff... but it is unhealthy. These are the facts that are widely agreed upon by the medical community...

 

 

 

Anyway, my point is you probably have lots of behavior that will present itself as a possibly health risk--most people do. That's why medical professionals are urging early screening, because cancer doesn't give a sh*t if you're fat or not. Long story short I think this idea of pointing out how unhealthy it is, is just an excuse, like putting a reason out of the hat to have a problem with it. If we're going to start arguing about people's behavior and life choices based on the possible health risks, women deciding they look good enough at 250 lbs to be photographed and feel sexy is like on the bottom of the list of sh*t we should be worrying about. I mean, maybe we could convince pregnant women not to smoke or drink first? Just hard to believe you're really more concerned about whether a fat girl has a donut at any given time, except when it's necessary in order to discourage her choice of body image.

Cancer does give a sh*t if you're fat or not, though. http://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/obesity/obesity-fact-sheet#q3------- I'm concerned with people who believe that it's alright to be significantly overweight and stress the medical system for the ailments they get in their later life. If you are 320 lbs and you have no health concerns, that's great. I would advise you to lose some weight though because if you don't have high blood pressure, you are going to develop orthopedic issues and you're at a significantly higher risk for pretty much every medical condition in the book. Just because you are fine now doesn't mean that in 10 years you will be. I will guarantee you you are a statistical anomaly for being totally healthy and carrying that much weight when you age.

 

 

 

o pick up a muscle and fitness magazine. See those guys with the muscles bigger than your heads and veins that look like they have veins sticking out? Did you know that having that much muscle mass has as many associative risks with being overweight or underweight or any other less-than-optimal body choice? (http://www.daveywave...ers-are-healthy http://www.healthlin...en-bodybuilding http://military-fitn...our-heart.html) Half the men develop steroid problems, and yes there is a problem with young men in highschool taking on bodybuilding and getting on steroids. The body isn't supposed to have that much muscle anymore than it's supposed to have that much fat and people cause great injury to themselves. On top of that the supplements used are often very bad for the heart, etc.

That's not true at all. Guys that are 300 lbs off season on steroids 365/a year for competitive purposes, yeah, they are as unhealthy as an overweight person. The article you pointed to from DaveyWave is referring to bodybuilders AT CONTEST TIME, so that is for about 48 hours when they are on stage. Yes, at that time they are extremely dehydrated and on practical starvation diet to look as good as possible on stage. That is not the entire year. Your average natural bodybuilder is world's healthier than most folks, especially with all the evidence coming out now that strength training is almost all around a better form of fitness than whittling away on the treadmill for an hour everyday. Your other article is about the danger's of teen bodybuilding under the age of 16, which in my view is a complete load of f*cking bullsh*t because there is quite literally zero evidence that weight lifting stunts growth. I have heard a conservative number of age 12 to begin weight training and I think that is fair. Either way, your article is in reference to people under 16 so it holds no weight here. That third article says that competitive bodybuilders who use steroids are at risk of heart problems (not in dispute) and that you should use supplements to avoid developing heart problems. Great, cool - not seeing how that shows that people who exercise are "just as unhealthy" as overweight folks.

 

 

 

So where is the big outcry about men not being unhealthy like this?

Because it's not true and it's a bunch of crap. Also, I would say there are plenty out there who make comments about male pro bodybuilders (Jay Cutler, Phil Heath, Kai Greene, etc) being too big and unattractive/unhealthy. Which is true... they aren't healthy. They're professional athletes and are using steroids to achieve that look... sort of like any NFL player. Nobody points to them as being epitomes of health, at least orthopedic-speaking.

 

 

 

Ready for the big surprise? Female body building is far more discouraged than male body building. It's like they ignored all the associated health risks when men were doing it, but when women started everybody suddenly became very health conscious of it. Telling them, "You shouldn't do that because it's bad for their health," when in reality it's "You shouldn't do that because now you don't look like what I think is pretty." You see? We don't really give two sh*ts when it's a guy making unhealthy life choices, and at the same time when it comes to a girl being underweight we don't lecture her about those associative health risks. It's only women who dare to challenge the beauty standard that get reminded they're being "unhealthy".

Women bodybuilders are considered unhealthy because competitively, at the pro level, they use hormones to achieve their look. One of my good friends is a female competitive bodybuilder (natural) that doesn't and I will bet you anything she is a lot healthier than pretty much any woman out there. When she's at that last week before contest, yeah the food gets cut and water cut, but that's one week before contest. It's not year round. Furthermore, I would agree that that challenges the beauty standard, but hey, they aren't carrying 200 lbs of fat on them and putting themselves at a health risk while looking in the mirror saying they're just as beautiful as a Victoria's Secret model.

 

 

 

This is what sends the message to young girls, "You have to be skinny and pretty no matter what," and the only thing that will stop it is for society to quit telling people what they should look like, period. There's other ways to address health issues, most of them far more effective than trying to make someone feel bad about it. So when you see a 250 lb woman in a magazine that's feeling sexy, what is the real benefit of tearing her down and telling her she's being unhealthy and irresponsible? Why can't as a society we start saying more, "It's great you feel as beautiful as you really are, but you should consider your health because we want to see more of you." Obviously society will never be nice enough to say supportive sh*t like that, but why does it have to be "What are you stupid? You look terrible and you should believe you look terrible and if you don't lose weight you're worthless to us."

Because she is healthy and irresponsible. That isn't something that should be encouraged. Literally, that is the same exact f*cking thing as saying that we shouldn't tear people down for using cigarettes as a glamour statement. I wouldn't say they're worthless to us, but I would say they are costing society by perpetuating an unhealthy image.

 

 

You're arguing too much about the specifics and losing the analogy in the process. Teen steroid use for example, is as much as serious an issue as teens starving themselves. What I'm getting at is that body-image problems manifest themselves in a variety of ways, some of which people don't really perceive as unhealthy, and other unhealthy conditions also manifest themselves in body-types people perceive as being healthy. All I'm trying to point out is ways that people are already making themselves unhealthy trying to strive for unhealthy body types.

 

The reason I'm pointing it out is because I think there's literally no one out there being encouraged to be fat or pressured to be fat. Plus like you told me I should still be trying to lose weight, I am for my own interested and I've dropped down to this level from being over 400 lbs so it's not like weight is a static issue. So you think there's some kind of like, danger to telling her she looks good because you think it will make her not be inclined to lose more weight, or perhaps want to gain more, but I just don't see this being a realistic concern. For one thing, someone isn't going to want to gain weight unless there's some sort of reason of vanity behind it and society isn't anywhere near a point of promoting this type of body image like we do with others. I guess you're argument is that acceptance is a slippery slope to promotion though?

 

The reason I scoff at the health concern issue isn't because the health concerns with being fat aren't real, it's, really because of the idea that being fat automatically makes a person unhealthy that is just nonsense but on top of that I just don't believe that it's really the main concern, but more as like another "justification".

 

For example I'll come back to this... What's wrong with telling a fat woman she is beautiful and celebrate that in society, while also encouraging healthier lifestyle choices? I just think there's a lot of other factors at play for why there is so much pressure to discourage it and none of them are really well-intentioned even if there's a notion there is.

 

I think the biggest thing is the message is being confused... I don't think anyone is saying, "See these women are fat, and they will always be fat, and we should celebrate that as beautiful." If you think about it though, you have no idea if these hypothetical models are already in the process of dropping weight or what it's just assumed that the idea is they're trying to defend their "lifestyle" when in reality you cannot even directly assume their lifestyle because fat just doesn't "disappear", so for all we know she could be leading a healthy lifestyle getting skinnier and just wants to feel sexy at the moment. Now given that there are people in who society who will see her as sexy, what is the problem with that? I don't think it would really cause a woman to go "Well screw that they think I'm sexy, bring on the twinkies." Maybe some women sure, but I doubt it's going to turn into some kind of epidemic...

 

In the mean time, we DO have an epidemic already started of young girls binging and purging to look like super models and young men doping up to get huge muscles. I'm just trying to point out what would solve all of that, and it's not shaming or making people feel bad about it: That's what started it.

Edited by SagaciousKJB

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Clem Fandango

 

I don't think it would really cause a woman to go "Well screw that they think I'm sexy, bring on the twinkies."

Some men wouldn't mind things turning out this way... or so I hear.

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