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Otter

Anarchy, Socialism, Communism, and community gardens

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Clem Fandango

They're very, very annoying. Thankfully they don't exist outside of Reddit.

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Otter

The truth of it is, if we're talking from a purely anarchist perspective, we're all living in sin. And, fundamentally, it's not a matter of degrees - by simply paying your rent you are contributing to the exploitation of others and the hierarchy. How does the aspiring anarchist account for this?

 

And I realize I'm drawing a stupid 'zero tolerance' line int he sand, but if one is of the positiont hat a small business is as unethical as a large multinational, then one must also extrapolate that down to the individual.

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Fonz

To the anarchists out there: what do you think of "anarcho"-capitalists? Do you view them as annoying, or as potential comrades?

Anarcho-capitalists are a walking oxymoron... and very heavy on the "moron", to be honest.

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Zook

To the anarchists out there: what do you think of "anarcho"-capitalists? Do you view them as annoying, or as potential comrades?

Probably the most arrogant group of people I've ever come across. Which is quite ironic considering their political philosophy is simplistic to the point of hilarity. It's literally aggression = bad. And then from this they derive their opinion on any issue. There's no nuance or anything it's crazy.

 

I'm sure there was some on the forum at one point.

Edited by Zook

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Eutyphro

To the anarchists out there: what do you think of "anarcho"-capitalists? Do you view them as annoying, or as potential comrades?

They are not 'comrades', if you mean this as, a pal to democratic socialists or libertarian socialists (anarchists). Though if you mean comrade as, like you probably mean it, as in, a buddy of Stalinists, Maoists or Leninists, then I don't feel spoken to, as I don't even count them as socialists, considering Lenin, Stalin and Mao all opposed democratizing the means of production, which is a fundamental socialist notion, apart from them being opposed to other civil liberties in general. They were statist tyrants, simple as that.

 

Anarcho capitalism is lunacy. I fail to understand how it could even possibly exist. Arms manufacturers would simply create an army and start taking over the complete planet, and you'll have states again, and gotten rid of the anarcho. And people hired by arms manufacturers, many most likely under slave like conditions considering there is no democratic community to regulate working conditions, would be willing to risk their lives, to settle a state to find a means to get away from the state of ultimate corporate tyranny and slavery.

 

When people live under conditions so bad that they are willing to slave themselves to top down entities (corporations), then anarchism is unsustainable. The reason states even still exist, is because capitalists love states. They love how states subsidize their technological progress. They love how state power depends on capital, because media and thus public opinion depends on capital, individual politicians are susceptible to capital and corporate benefits. Capitalism and statism are best friends. Anarcho capitalism is near impossible to exist.

 

The truth of it is, if we're talking from a purely anarchist perspective, we're all living in sin. And, fundamentally, it's not a matter of degrees - by simply paying your rent you are contributing to the exploitation of others and the hierarchy. How does the aspiring anarchist account for this?

 

And I realize I'm drawing a stupid 'zero tolerance' line int he sand, but if one is of the positiont hat a small business is as unethical as a large multinational, then one must also extrapolate that down to the individual.

As a person who chooses to live in reality, and not in some made up world that doesn't exist yet or maybe never will, you choose the worst of evils. So you pay tax to the state, because it pays for valuable social services that are in the common interest. But it is a funny thing to think about. Should I choose to work as a wage slave for a big corporation, in the situation where I have no prospect of actually getting a valuable position where I can benefit society? This is a also a matter of group rationality. If you are willing to live as a hobo, but nobody else is, nothing will happen. You need a movement.

 

Consider there is scientific consensus everybody worldwide has to stop using fossil fuels all together to save the climate from collapsing and 80 percent of the world population from dying. You then find out from a magic worldwide opinion poll that 99,9% of the world is going to use double the fossil fuel if you stop using it (lol)... But even in the case 99,9% is saying they are going on exactly as they were even with the knowledge of the scientifically objective mass catastrophe. Then what is the use of stopping using fossil fuels yourself if all you do is cause yourself extremely tough conditions and it will not affect anything whatsoever?

 

You can't save society by not paying your taxes on your own, by not being a wage slave on your own, by not ruining the climate on your own. You need a movement. Individual responsibility often has only limited meaning. And I'm an anarchist, but I don't think a small business is as bad as a multinational. Multinationals have major power to sustain tyrannical hierarchical conditions and exploitation, to a degree unmeasurably greater than a small business.. power = responsibility Being principled on your utopian view is just laughable. You need to act in the light of the likely possible consequences, that is your responsibility.

Edited by Eutyphro

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make total destroy

The truth of it is, if we're talking from a purely anarchist perspective, we're all living in sin. And, fundamentally, it's not a matter of degrees - by simply paying your rent you are contributing to the exploitation of others and the hierarchy. How does the aspiring anarchist account for this?

 

 

By understanding that there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, period.

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CBH

Anarchism is balls because it suggests that once you overthrow the state you can snap your fingers and proceed into full communism immediately. That you can just stand on a soapbox and go "we've killed the Tsar! We're in communism now!" without having people who don't care about you forming their own state or continuing capitalist relations.

Then of course they realize that they're going to have to organize at least enough to defend their territory from those evil vanguardist statists, and ooops, they just accidentally a state and a vanguard party.

That aside I do appreciate that outside of full on revolutions, Anarchists are often very good at organizing working people. That's a skill that first world MLs seem to have lost decades ago.

What I most definitely don't like is the way the more vulgar anarchists (and trots) consider themselves the only "real" socialists. Not only do they refuse to acknowledge prior and current socialist countries, they denounce them. There's no study of them as models of socialism, and no understanding of their positive aspects. USSR ended illiteracy and brought civil rights and indoor plumbing to over 100 major and minor nationalities? Doesn't matter because BUT STALIN THO. So positive aspects of prior socialism are reinvented out of deliberate ignorance.

Feeding into that is a tendency to accept everything capitalists say about those socialist states at face value. "The different strain of socialism is bad! I know because someone opposed to all socialism told me so!". Confirmation bias in action.

Though I feel it's the other way around. People attempt to reconcile a lifetime of western anticommunist indoctrination with their realization that class war is true. Unlearning things is very hard, after all. If I were CIA I'd think this sort of behavior was a miracle.

Edited by CBH

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Otter

 

The truth of it is, if we're talking from a purely anarchist perspective, we're all living in sin. And, fundamentally, it's not a matter of degrees - by simply paying your rent you are contributing to the exploitation of others and the hierarchy. How does the aspiring anarchist account for this?

 

 

By understanding that there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, period.

 

 

Sorry, I mean to ask - do you try to live a life somewhat outside of capitalism now, or are you biding time until it all burns down? :p

 

And this ties into your reply as well, Euty. Surely there must be ways to prove the functionality of anarchism by leading by example. Are there any big names out there, doing that now?

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universetwisters

Speaking of living a life outside of capitalism, wouldn't you be supporting capitalism by using internet provided by a corporation, on devices made by corporations?

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CBH

You can't live a life outside of capitalism within the borders of a capitalist state. Eventually you have to interact with something. This isn't bad, it isn't hypocritical. New historical eras are always made of the tools of the old.

You get morons going "durr if you hate capitalism so much why do you have a computer!!!" but I bet they'd have had no problem with capitalist Yeltsin massacring the supreme soviet using communist era tanks.

The important part is that items and services are not, and cannot be made by an economic system. They're made by human labour. A drill isn't communist or capitalist. It's an inanimate object. The state's economic policy doesn't determine how capitalist the tree I just cut down and carved into clogs is.

Edited by CBH

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Otter

Speaking of living a life outside of capitalism, wouldn't you be supporting capitalism by using internet provided by a corporation, on devices made by corporations?

I don't think that's necessarily true, and I'm not going for a 'gotcha' moment here. For instance, I try to live a pretty sustainable life. I still throw out a bunch of trash. We can only pursue an ideal.

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make total destroy

Speaking of living a life outside of capitalism, wouldn't you be supporting capitalism by using internet provided by a corporation, on devices made by corporations?

I'm pretty sure people in workshops make computers, bud.

 

If you're going to continue to post these lame-ass 'GOTCHA!' remarks--as if we haven't heard them a million f*cking times before--don't even post in this thread.

Edited by make total destroy

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Moth

 

 

 

Speaking of living a life outside of capitalism, wouldn't you be supporting capitalism by using internet provided by a corporation, on devices made by corporations?

I don't think that's necessarily true, and I'm not going for a 'gotcha' moment here.

 

Well if internet, there is probably ways to bum it off someone, or even steal it. Like how I use to get American tv in the 90s with a grey market satellite receiver.

 

For instance, I try to live a pretty sustainable life. I still throw out a bunch of trash. We can only pursue an ideal.

 

Well, for that, it all comes down to how extreme you want to go.

Edited by Moth

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Niobium

 

To the anarchists out there: what do you think of "anarcho"-capitalists? Do you view them as annoying, or as potential comrades?

Anarcho-capitalists are a walking oxymoron... and very heavy on the "moron", to be honest.

 

 

Yeah, that's why I put "anarcho" in quotes.

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CBH

There's no such thing as anarcho-captialism, only conservatives who want to smoke weed.

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Otter

For instance, I try to live a pretty sustainable life. I still throw out a bunch of trash. We can only pursue an ideal.

 

Well, for that, it call comes down to how extreme you want to go.

 

 

Perhaps, but there are still realities you have to face. You can go to jail for not filing taxes. You will be kicked off of crown land if you try and set up a homestead. You are not allowed to collect rainwater in some areas. So one has to imagine finding a way to live the ideals while walking between the lines.

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Moth

 

For instance, I try to live a pretty sustainable life. I still throw out a bunch of trash. We can only pursue an ideal.

 

Well, for that, it call comes down to how extreme you want to go.

 

 

Perhaps, but there are still realities you have to face. You can go to jail for not filing taxes. You will be kicked off of crown land if you try and set up a homestead. You are not allowed to collect rainwater in some areas. So one has to imagine finding a way to live the ideals while walking between the lines.

 

Buy or create your own Sealand? That will get past all of that.

 

Also the no collecting rainwater, is f*cking bullsh*t. Who the f*ck came up with that?

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Niobium

 

To the anarchists out there: what do you think of "anarcho"-capitalists? Do you view them as annoying, or as potential comrades?

They are not 'comrades', if you mean this as, a pal to democratic socialists or libertarian socialists (anarchists). Though if you mean comrade as, like you probably mean it, as in, a buddy of Stalinists, Maoists or Leninists, then I don't feel spoken to, as I don't even count them as socialists, considering Lenin, Stalin and Mao all opposed democratizing the means of production, which is a fundamental socialist notion, apart from them being opposed to other civil liberties in general. They were statist tyrants, simple as that.

 

What I mean by 'potential comrades', is that do you think they would stop being "anarcho"-capitalists and become anarchists after realizing that anarchism cannot exist with capitalism? Do you think that they would become anarchists after being shown the light by other anarchists? After all, there happens to be a lot of anarchists who are former 'an'caps.

 

Anarcho capitalism is lunacy. I fail to understand how it could even possibly exist. Arms manufacturers would simply create an army and start taking over the complete planet, and you'll have states again, and gotten rid of the anarcho. And people hired by arms manufacturers, many most likely under slave like conditions considering there is no democratic community to regulate working conditions, would be willing to risk there lives, to settle a state to find a means to get away from the state of ultimate corporate tyranny and slavery.

 

When people live under conditions so bad that they are willing to slave themselves to top down entities (corporations), then anarchism is unsustainable. The reason states even still exist, is because capitalists love states. They love how states subsidize their technological proogress. They love how state power depends on capital, because media and thus public opinion depends on capital, individual politicians are susceptible to capital and corporate benefits. Capitalism and statism are best friends. Anarcho capitalism is near impossible to exist.

 

Agreed. I'm not denying that "anarcho"-capitalism is absurd.

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Otter
Also the no collecting rainwater, is f*cking bullsh*t. Who the f*ck came up with that?

 

 

 

Well, consider this - if, say, Nestle were to begin collecting massive amounts of rainfall, what would that do to the local watertables? Given the chance, in a capitalist society, there is a huge incentive to exploit common resources.

 

Which was one of my main sticking points with anarchy - how do we prevent that sort of exploitation - but then without capitalism, there's not so much benefit to hording. Bit of a brain flip.

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Moth

 

Also the no collecting rainwater, is f*cking bullsh*t. Who the f*ck came up with that?

 

 

 

Well, consider this - if, say, Nestle were to begin collecting massive amounts of rainfall, what would that do to the local watertables?

 

 

Well on this case, make only individuals are only allowed to collect rainwater. It's not like we consider corporations like Nestle as individuals, right?

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Otter
It's not like we consider corporations like Nestle as individuals, right?

 

 

Actually, yeah...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood

 

Actually, when I incorporated, my tax went down by more than 50%. So we treat 'em better than individuals. :p

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Moth

 

 

It's not like we consider corporations like Nestle as individuals, right?

 

 

 

Actually, yeah...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood

 

I was talking about Canada, when I said we. Since we are both Canadians. I did a ctrl F to see if canada was mention in the wiki entry and I got nothing.

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Tyler

You guys let the corporate overlords destroy your nation just as much as we do. Canadians are not innocent of corporate complicity.

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Otter

We have adopted many of those policies since the Harper government came into play. For instance, corporate income tax (like I mentioned) dropped from something around 40% to 14%. And Nestle is currently sucking BC dry:

 

http://www.theprovince.com/news/Outrage+boils+over+government+plans+sell+groundwater+million+litres/10865416/story.html

 

...but let's not drag this too far off topic, aye?

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universetwisters

 

Speaking of living a life outside of capitalism, wouldn't you be supporting capitalism by using internet provided by a corporation, on devices made by corporations?

I'm pretty sure people in workshops make computers, bud.

 

But again, wouldn't you have to get parts from a corporation to make your own computer?

 

 

I'm not trying to go for a "gotcha" moment or anything like you're trying to say, I'm just trying to figure out how things such as computers or the internet would work in a hypothetical anarchist world.

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CBH

 

 

Speaking of living a life outside of capitalism, wouldn't you be supporting capitalism by using internet provided by a corporation, on devices made by corporations?

I'm pretty sure people in workshops make computers, bud.

 

But again, wouldn't you have to get parts from a corporation to make your own computer?

 

 

I'm not trying to go for a "gotcha" moment or anything like you're trying to say, I'm just trying to figure out how things such as computers or the internet would work in a hypothetical anarchist world.

 

If you think you're not trying for a Gotcha, then stop doing it.

 

I mean, do you not understand? Every man made object is exactly that, man made. The method of which the people who made it used to organize themselves doesn't imbue it with any moral properties or worth, and using them or not is no meaningful ideological act either.

 

There's no sensible point to this line of thinking whatsoever. You want to know "how computers would work" post capitalism? Easy, supply 240v to the kettle connector at the back and push power button. Normal laws of physics are still in effect.

 

"If you hate capitalism so much, why are you overthrowing capitalists with guns made in a factory they owned?"

 

"My god! How could we be so blind? Revolution is cancelled"

Edited by CBH

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Fonz

 

 

To the anarchists out there: what do you think of "anarcho"-capitalists? Do you view them as annoying, or as potential comrades?

Anarcho-capitalists are a walking oxymoron... and very heavy on the "moron", to be honest.

 

Yeah, that's why I put "anarcho" in quotes.

Yeah, I got you, I just wanted to make the lame oxymoron pun :p

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I cucked Alex Jones

 

It's sort of a reasonable assumption to make given that "small businesses" encompasses sole traders and individuals pretty much everywhere. But yeah, that question aside, I'd contend that the vast majority of small businesses outside of the retail sector (which is a toilet across the board) aren't anywhere near as unethical or exploitative as big corporations.

 

Not really.

 

For example, a local pizza shop may be family owned, and may bake all their pizza's on site, and may even be sold by the cook's themselves, but even they use tomatoes picked by migrant workers who make less than 10$ a day. It's not their fault, but our system of western consumer based capitalism is exploitative in it's very nature, and has been that way ever since it's inception.

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sivispacem

Many small businesses are tertiary/service sector. There's no exploitive product of wage labour for them to sell as their primary product is the expertise of the peers that make up the organisation. The moment you start implicating them in wage slavery by proxy (IE claiming that they endorse it by making use of products of a Capitalist society even if they don't outright resell wage labour) you commit a fallacy of hypocrisy given that most anarchists and communists accept the need to collaborate with Capitalist society to some degree merely to survive and are therefore equally as culpable.

 

Which isn't to say that you can't fundamentally disagree with the exploitive nature of the system, but that that everyone who is a member of society is really a wage state collaborator to one degree or another.

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I cucked Alex Jones

Many small businesses are tertiary/service sector. There's no exploitive product of wage labour for them to sell as their primary product is the expertise of the peers that make up the organisation. The moment you start implicating them in wage slavery by proxy (IE claiming that they endorse it by making use of products of a Capitalist society even if they don't outright resell wage labour) you commit a fallacy of hypocrisy given that most anarchists and communists accept the need to collaborate with Capitalist society to some degree merely to survive and are therefore equally as culpable.

 

Which isn't to say that you can't fundamentally disagree with the exploitive nature of the system, but that that everyone who is a member of society is really a wage state collaborator to one degree or another.

Oh no, I completely agree with you. Unless you live in a commune that's completely self-sufficient you are complicit in a consumer culture. I'm not going to deny I participate in it.

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