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"Otherkin" and other identification stuff


universetwisters
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universetwisters

Before I begin, apologies if this is the wrong way to present something, or even if it's the wrong thing to put here.

 

To begin, a buddy of mine and I were talking about folks we went to school with and a classmate of ours, who was transgender, was brought up. I didn't know her much but evidently she used to be a guy who now turned into a girl. I never had many experiences with them or not but evidently suddenly there's some big debate on them going on, calling folks cisgendered and talking about men's rights and stuff. I go looking it up online to see where the sudden up on it's come from and I come across this similar term by the name of "otherkin", which vaguely reminds me of it as far as identifying yourself goes. In short, otherkin is identifying yourself as a dog, or stoplights, or whatever that isn't human. The one thing that bugged me about it was how they handled it. Call me ignorant, but again, I've never had much experience with someone wanting to identify as something they weren't. But back to the point, I came across some post about a guy who got fired from his job for having some otherkin related freakout, and the thing that bugged me the most was that he claimed he was being "discriminated" for being a werewolf, i.e. something that didn't exist.

 

It's an insane idea, at least to me, to think you're not a human. So in short, what's going on with the push for everyone wanting to get identified as something they're not? Will otherkins & other ways people want to be identified ever become largely accepted, or will it keep obscured as it sorta currently is? Is all this "social justice" necessary? Discuss, I guess, and apologize once again if it's the wrong way or thing to present.

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universetwisters

It's tumblr.

So ignore it because of that?

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CrysisAverted

Hitler would have never let any of this happen.

  • Like 6
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well what exactly are you trying to get at?

 

I don't think 'otherkin' recognition is a very serious movement outside of niche circles.

at least not in the way that other minority rights are legitimate movements. I mean the Tumblr post is just ridiculous. aside from the occasional furry community which typically operates as Role Play (not reality), I wouldn't worry that we're going to suddenly need 'therian' bathrooms or other absurd distinctions on the census form.

 

society is adjusting (and rightfully so) to the unique treatment of homosexuals and transgendered.

but it doesn't (and shouldn't) need to adjust to every single fetish under the sun.

 

if you believe you're a wolf trapped in a humans body and you sometimes feel the need to growl and thrash and act like a f/cking fool in public, then you deserve to be fired from your job... unless your job is to pretend you're a wolf at an amusement park. seriously :sui:

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make total destroy

I'm more than convinced the whole 'otherkin' thing is just folks trolling.

yqwcbDf.png

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universetwisters

@diablo - I'm just trying to get at the third paragraph, what's normal for society to be adjusted to and all these other fetishes under the sun. Bless for the good answer though :^:

Edited by universetwisters
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CrysisAverted

could mental institutions have prevented this?

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you can't "prevent" people from being this way.

you just deal with it.

 

aside from embarrassing, it seems to be pretty harmless.

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CrysisAverted

Yes

and pretty funny too

 

54f.jpg9f6.pngTrans+imperium_78b4e2_5087625.jpg253319.jpg

 

 

based on

 

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I'm sure if you found someone who wanted to identify themselves as a wolf or turtleburger or what have you, you will have found someone looking to escape certain difficult individual and societal circumstances, someone attempting to live anywhere but in "reality".

Edited by Rusty Balls
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always knew I was a god and know can claim it.

 

As long as this doesn't carry over to passports and official documents in general i am ok with it. What do i care if someone thinks he is a washing machine or a pile of pooh.

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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otherkin

 

It's far too broad a subject to argue one way other the other, at least for me. We're talking about a wide variety of folks who, on one end of the spectrum likely have a dissociative condition and on the other are quite obviously simply indulging a fantasy. But that's neither here nor there - the context in which you raised the question is troubling, UT.

 

There are those out there who would point to some of the, ah, 'loonier', types as an allegory for common lifestyle and identity issues (for instance, transgenderism or homosexuality) as if it somehow debunks everything queer. This is baseless bigotry.

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universetwisters

Apologies on the coming-off-as-bigot evidently, I've just been curious as to others think and, as Diablo pointed out, if it's gonna end up being something that everyone would have to adjust to or something that'd keep being swept under the rug

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Clem Fandango

Apologies on the coming-off-as-bigot evidently, I've just been curious as to others think and, as Diablo pointed out, if it's gonna end up being something that everyone would have to adjust to or something that'd keep being swept under the rug

Are you asking if, because we're starting to recognise the existence of unconventional gender identities, we'll soon be forced to acknowledge people as polar bears? The answer is a resounding 'no.'

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universetwisters

 

 

Apologies on the coming-off-as-bigot evidently, I've just been curious as to others think and, as Diablo pointed out, if it's gonna end up being something that everyone would have to adjust to or something that'd keep being swept under the rug

Are you asking if, because we're starting to recognise the existence of unconventional gender identities, we'll soon be forced to acknowledge people as polar bears? The answer is a resounding 'no.'

Then I've got my answer it seems. If anyone wants to lock this or keep it up or whatever, go for it.

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Apologies on the coming-off-as-bigot evidently, I've just been curious as to others think and, as Diablo pointed out, if it's gonna end up being something that everyone would have to adjust to or something that'd keep being swept under the rug

No, you're not coming off as bigoted. It's an interesting topic to discuss. Not sure where to start, though. Any elves in the house?

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it really seems to be like any other subset of self-identification.

 

 

 

if that's what he believes that's cool... as long as he doesn't maul anybody.

otherwise they can't really expect things like workplace protections from discrimination as noted in the OP's little anecdote. if you bring that sort of behavior out into the public you should expect only criticism, not an embrace. you can't fire someone for being gay or being transgender. you can absolutely fire someone for acting like a goddamn cheetah around the office.

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I'm more than convinced the whole 'otherkin' thing is just folks trolling.

 

Poe's Law on a grand scale? Some people probably are. It doesn't address those who genuinely believe themselves to be some sort of mythological creature.

 

I don't think that we should recognize any of this "otherkin" bullsh*t and I think it's actually derogatory towards people on the LGBT spectrum because it's riding on the laurels of a genuine rights movement for people who are being persecuted for who they are. Homosexuality is natural. It has been documented in species other than humans. Otherkin isn't natural. It's attention seeking. It's people who have little or no social skills acting out their fantasies by convincing themselves that they're not humans. I actually think it's more or less a cry for help rather more than anything.

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I don't see how it's THAT different. I mean if someone genuinely identifies and sees themselves as an Asian person even though they're black or white, or they really feel like a wolf, then what sets that apart and makes it so different from people with alternative gender identities?

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Clem Fandango

I don't see how it's THAT different. I mean if someone genuinely identifies and sees themselves as an Asian person even though they're black or white, or they really feel like a wolf, then what sets that apart and makes it so different from people with alternative gender identities?

The fact that gender is a social construct, where as the difference between humans and other animals is an inescapable biological fact? Or the fact that gender variance like we see with modern transgender individuals is so ubiquitous in the human experience that many cultures recognise as many five distinct genders? Someone's status as "man, as opposed to woman" isn't in any way comparable to their status as "human, as opposed to magpie."

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Like I said, Stu, there's a spectrum. The 'I am a toaster' bandwidth has all the hallmarks of wacky religion, in no way comparable to the long history of human gender identity issues.

 

Granted, you do raise a good point: who are we to judge these guys? Let them be. Unless they're doing something unsafe to achieve their dream of, say, finally becoming a glacier.

 

Racial and hereditary identity is another ball of wax entirely.

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Sexual dymorphism is an inescapable biological fact too though, not a social construct. Males are males, females are females. A guy might be very feminine, but he's still biologically and anatomically a man. Even if he gets his bits turned inside out, he's still a man. In the same way MJ was still black even though his skin was white. Or in Bicentennial Man, Robin Williams was a robot not a man, even if the judge humoured the AI and let it die in peace. Being "otherkin" to the extent you're dysphoric with your human body isn't any different to being dysphoric with your biologically and anatomically female body and wishing you were a dude. It's a mental illness either way, it's just one is treated with more acceptance because it's more common.

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...you're sidestepping the 'gender is a social construct' argument, though. It's not just a mantra. One cannot, currently, change their chromosones, but if classification is as hard-set as you maintain, then it should further be tempered with qualification, no?

 

The 'illness' topic is currently hotly debated and is currently classified as a 'disorder' though recent history points towards the loss of this designation in the near future.

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So in short, what's going on with the push for everyone wanting to get identified as something they're not?

That's quite the leap there, this is a small minority of people, and in general there's not a lot of people identifying as something their appearance would otherwise suggest. In general, I can't ever see it as a problem society would need to face, especially considering the nature of it.

 

Also, I don't know why people are mentioning fetishes, they're not really related...but hey.

gwZr6Zc.png

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Clem Fandango

Sexual dymorphism is an inescapable biological fact too though, not a social construct. Males are males, females are females. A guy might be very feminine, but he's still biologically and anatomically a man.

1) if someone is born a woman and takes testosterone they're a man for all intents and purposes, only they can't fertilise eggs, and it's best to avoid the territory of defining gender based on reproductive capability. Go tell a sterile man he isn't a man... but make sure you duck afterwards. 2) Society attaches gender to certain bodies, wanting to express a gender identity that you feel on a personal, emotional level by changing your physical appearance is not the same as a guy who wants his passport to say that he's really a man-hole cover.

 

 

 

Being "otherkin" to the extent you're dysphoric with your human body isn't any different to being dysphoric with your biologically and anatomically female body and wishing you were a dude.

Except it's ssssooooo obviously different that we shouldn't even be having this discussion. Gender is the categorisation of humans into social roles encompassing certain traits. These traits are human, people of either sex can have them: a woman can be aggressive and a man can be nurturing. Thinking you're a skunk is different. Some people feel a gender identity that doesn't match up with the one they were assigned at birth, some feel the need to change their body to express this, some don't. The identity that they're expressing is inextricably linked with physical features, it's not the same as thinking you're a can of Iron Bru.

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could mental institutions have prevented this?

You bring up a very interesting point about whether such rare and uncommon beliefs should be classified as pathological and treated.

 

Personally, I strongly back the relatively progressive position taken by the British General Medical Council (GMC). The patient-centred and non-paternalistic approach that they've been advocating recently means that patients (with capacity) themselves determine whether their condition is pathological and whether it requires treatment.

Therefore, regardless of how "loonie" the beliefs of these "Otherkin" are, if they have capacity, and don't see their beliefs as problematic, there's nothing the medical establishment can do. They cannot be sectioned simply because they hold odd beliefs, and no one else can really do anything about them if they don't present a clear threat to themselves or others.

I believe that's the logical approach, as treating beliefs as pathological based on rarity can lead down to a slippery slope - how rare should a belief be before those who hold it are classified as mentally ill?

 

Freedom of belief means that Otherkin can classify themselves as they wish, however, the same freedom means that others have the rght to reject the validity of said classifications.

 

Sexual dymorphism is an inescapable biological fact too though, not a social construct. Males are males, females are females. A guy might be very feminine, but he's still biologically and anatomically a man.

Sorry mate, but it's not so clear cut biologically.

Even genetically, not everyone is neatly assigned XX or XY allosomes:

Edited by D- Ice
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6g8AhC3.jpg

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Also, I don't know why people are mentioning fetishes, they're not really related...but hey.

people tie them together because they see them as equally weird, but you're right, as fetish implies something sexually deviant. this particular issue is generally more related to a person's gender identification, at least in terms of how we should be approaching and handling it. they don't need their own bathrooms but they don't need to be viewed as criminals either.

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