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TJGM

[DISCUSSION] Should OpenIV go open source or stayed closed source?

OpenIV - Open Source vs Closed Source  

175 members have voted

  1. 1. Should OpenIV go open source?

  2. 2. Should OpenIV publicly document their research?



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TJGM

Due to the huge amount of people arguing in the OpenIV topic about OpenIV not going open source/documenting their research, I thought we'd give it its own thread instead.

 

Keeps all arguments about the topic here from now on and please keep it civil and give reasons as to why you say yes or no.

Edited by TJGM

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Ash_735

No to Open Source.

 

Yes to Documentation.

 

Documentation would help modders more in the long run since specifics are already noted and then open for manipulation which would provide a spark for more creative modding types and crazy ideas without being bound and gagged to a system where we are all currently locked down to OpenIV's way or no way.

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SonofUgly

I'd definitely like it to be open source, could help drive some features forward faster. Really don't think there's a downside to it.

Edited by SonofUgly

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Aleph-Zero

Most people crying for open source are just hoping that there are other people out there who would be able to fork it out and make progress upon it.

That's unlikely. The knowledge required to pick up on OpenIV's code is probably the same knowledge you'd need to make it in the first place. Not to mention the increasing rarity of Delphi coders out there.

And if this messiah existed, he would probably be joining the OpenIV team anyway.

 

The source code would, at best, sit and rot.

 

I'm all for documentation on the file structures and encryptions, though, if they have time to do it.

 

-edit-

 

And i just hope people understand it's been made very clear by the developers that this project cannot be and is never going to be open source. I'm afraid the constant asking for it is just gonna wear them out.

Edited by Aleph-Zero

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Gforce

This topic has no right to even be up for debate, a group of people chose to spend their spare time researching this and creating their own code, and then they chose to share their tools with the community, and they've done it for free.

you have no rights to demand source code, it belongs to them, it's their work, it's their time that's gone into it, and it's their choice whether they release it or not, and they said no,

why is it that this current generation seem to think they're owed something ? and why is it that they completely fail to respect anything or anyone when they say no to something ?

It is not your right or anyone elses right to be pressuring individual forum members to hand over something that they have spent so much of their life creating, nobody has a right to anyone elses life and that's what that source code represents, it's their time from their life, and you cannot buy extra time or extra life, stop trying to demand theirs when you're not prepared to sacrifice your own to learn this stuff for yourself, because you're too lazy to put the effort in and want shortcuts for everything in life, that's not how things work.

Pressuring someone to hand over something that does not belong to you and have no right to, is classified as online bullying these days ........................

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rakion99

yes to open source because if some features isn't completed, not exist or not working correctly people can help to fix it

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thehambone

I don't have a problem with the OpenIV team's decision to not go open-source. Personally, I like open-source software because I feel source code can be used as a powerful learning tool. In the end, however, the creator(s) of the software have every right to decide what they want to do with their source code. If they don't want to go open-source, please, just respect their decision and move on.

 

I do feel the team should publicly document their findings, however. As Ash said, clear documentation will open the doors for much more creative mods and tools. Mods and tools will be released much faster, and beginning modders can have an easier time creating their first mod. It's a win-win for the community, in my opinion.

Edited by thehambone

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JoeVK

TJGM, what thehambone said above is was I was trying to say in the PMs I sent you. He makes more sense than whatever the h3ll I said in my PMs, lol.

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n00854180t

Yes to both.

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Invader115

Here's this lurker's two cents:

 

The OpenIV team clearly don't ever want their program to go open-source, and it's their call what happens to that program. The community ought to respect their decision, and more to the point the community ought to stop begging them to go open-source when the OpenIV team have already made their position on that issue clear.

 

Documentation of their findings, on the other hand, really shouldn't be kept locked away. If the OpenIV team have information they're not sharing that would help out the modding community as a whole, they should share it. Mods are made by and for the community and anything that could help out the modding community at large should be done.

 

Of course, both the state of OpenIV and its developers' research are up to those developers, and voting here doesn't affect their decisions at all, so I guess I have no choice but to leave it up to them.

 

(I would've voted without posting, but I figured I probably shouldn't vote on a poll while having a post count of zero; just doesn't seem right. I'm gonna disappear indefinitely now.)

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a_tavenner

No to open source, yes to documentation. The OpenIV team has already given perfectly good reasons for the program not to go open source, plus it's their program, their work and their call.

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splintter

Hi,

 

I really think that its only and exclusively their choice of being open-source or not. However, I really think we - community - deserve the proper documentation of rockstar file formats or algorithms, because without users, why do we need tools? I don't see an argument for being selfish with file formats as yes, they had work to discover this format, but not sharing it with community just slow down proper evolution of customization of our loved games. Also, releasing the file format documention and document things which can be useful for the community, will stop with this "source plxxxxxxxxx" thing that they (developers) need to hear all time.

 

In conclusion, keep the source closed if you want, but proper documentation and file format disclosure is almost required.

 

My 2c

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reece22345

No to open-source, yes to documentation (if they have time and resources).

 

As has been said, OpenIV uses proprietary libraries such as the Xbox SDK, among others, and contains all the RAGE encryption keys. It wouldn't be legal in the first place for the team to distribute these - irrespective of whether or not others have already done so. Secondly barely anybody could contribute to it as Delphi is quite rare. Thirdly, people who could contribute meaningfully to OpenIV would have contributed to other similar tools that already ARE open-sourced. However these tools are not magically better due to the community input, the code just sits there barely being used. Fourthly, it's their code. Their decision.

 

Documentation would be great if the team had the resources and time to create it. Let's not forget they already develop OpenIV in their free time - they have actual jobs as software engineers in their normal hours that needs their attention first. Technical documentation is a huge undertaking and would massively increase their workload.

Edited by reece22345

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PhillBellic

I would like for the documenation to be released, so the modding community can get more advanced mods done much faster.

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TrojanNemo

I absolutely side with the dev team.

So my answers are:

 

1. Whatever they agree

2. Whatever they agree

 

Simple, isn't it?

 

I have several large programming projects I do, and I keep them closed source. Not only because there's some proprietary encryption and obfuscation of files that I don't want getting out to the users, but because it's my work over the past two years. If my code, or their code, goes out, anyone can then take it, corrupt it into something else, and nobody could stop them. Of course, if they were ok with that, then they could share it.

 

As far as documentation, everything takes time. Would it be great to have everything nice and neatly documented? Yes. But maybe they don't even document it for themselves outside of the bare minimum that along with the code makes sense to them. Having to parse it out into plain english for (presumably less skilled) modders to understand might take a little or a whole lot of time that might be better spent in more development.

 

So, I say respect the dev team's wishes and move on. No amount of polls is going to change anything, and they deserve respect for their work.

Edited by TrojanNemo

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RogerWho

Every such thing should be open source.

 

First reason is different people can use their different skills to add different feature. The Russian guys may be great with decoding the file format, but others can make better UI, add features or figure out other things.

 

Second reason is, if the original creators get hit by a bus or just lose the interest, the project is dead.

 

Every modder is probably familiar with the *Radiant family and their capabilities compared to the original variants.

 

If the software is already free as in beer, no reason not to make it also free as in freedom.

 

Nobody is denying the respect, hard work and every other aspects for the original creators but keeping software close means keeping its fans hostage.

Edited by RogerWho

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TJGM

So, I say respect the dev team's wishes and move on. No amount of polls is going to change anything, and they deserve respect for their work.

Just to let you know. this thread isn't to persuade the dev team, we've already accepted no as an answer. But even after that people were still arguing about the issue in the OpenIV thread, so we moved the discussion here instead to keep the off-topic out of their thread.

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TrojanNemo

TJGM, I assumed that was your intent. But I fear the intent of the admin/mod staff, and what the forum people think is going on, are completely different.

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n00854180t

For my part as a programmer, I think it's pretty amusing to watch people fight tooth and nail against letting others help them. Not to mention the community itself slinging mud at modders calling them entitled for wanting at least some guarantee that the tools they rely on aren't going to disappear or be obsolete as soon as the creators get bored.

 

Really, I think people would have a different perspective if they'd ever dealt with having to recreate this type of work from scratch after some closed-source-diehard just gets bored one day and abandons their tools.

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TrojanNemo

And for my part as a "closed-source-diehard" - if I see that I'm getting bored and plan to stop, maybe I will share my code. Maybe.

The tools that others are relying on won't break because the "closed-source-diehard" doesn't share his source code - whatever I've released continues to work - there might not be further development, but that wasn't promised while I was around either. So that argument fails.

 

And I don't know about your experience, but making the code open source while continuing to develop it myself is nothing more than a headache if others decide to improve on it and send it to me, as 1) I might have already done that before I pushed another update, 2) they might do a crappy job or 3) they might go in a diffferent direction than I want the software to go (i.e. why Alexander won't release the scripthook source). So I don't see it as getting help either.

 

The only time I would consider it helpful, and then it's only helpful to the community, not to me, is if/when I give up on a project, then release the source code for others to continue it. But even then you have to weigh the pros and cons.

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LINK/2012

1) I might have already done that before I pushed another update, 2) they might do a crappy job or 3) they might go in a diffferent direction than I want the software to go

Easy: Don't accept the contribution in question, that simple, it's not like the world is going to burn because you didn't merge that.

If the project receives that lots of contribution you probably have guidelines set where you can be clear about your concerns such as goals and under-standard code.

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Gforce

For those banging on about wanting source code ..................

The source code for SparkIV has been available for 6 and a half years on this very forum, and nobody has done anything with it, if you guys want to get your heads around the Rage engine and how GTA V works and how it's put together, the first place you need to start is with the GTA IV files.

http://gtaforums.com/topic/384933-relbinsrcbeta-sparkiv/

and wow, look at the massive amount of polling numbers, almost 100 in total :O

............................. six and a half years, and you've done absolutely nothing with it !!! :facedesk:

Edited by Gforce

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Seemann

I have to remind that we have the GTAModding wiki for documentation. GTA V files are now open and accessible by anyone, so just go and start exploring them and then write down your researches in plain English there. GTA V formats are not archives and encryption stuff only, there are much more and maybe 90% of it is unknown at the moment, so anyone could be a pioneer of documenting them first.

 

How much people can really do it?

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DrDaxxy

As has been said, OpenIV uses proprietary libraries such as the Xbox SDK, among others, and contains all the RAGE encryption keys.

Source on that? I know that OpenIV contains some code that "cannot be published", but I've seen no statement from the developers or evidence on what that is (beyond the obvious enclusion of keys). I'm not doubting you, by the way, I'd just like to know where you read that.

 

 

It wouldn't be legal in the first place for the team to distribute these - irrespective of whether or not others have already done so.

The fact that others have already published the keys, the OpenIV binaries are public, and mods have been created, without legal repercussions for anyone involved indicates that R* doesn't seem to have any intention to sue. So legal threats are out of the way. And if you think that it would be immoral for OpenIV to publish those secrets, but not to use them themselves, then, well...

 

 

Secondly barely anybody could contribute to it as Delphi is quite rare.

If you have the skill to contribute to open source beyond fixing typos, you have the skill to quickly pick up whatever high-level language something's written in anyway.

 

 

Thirdly, people who could contribute meaningfully to OpenIV would have contributed to other similar tools that already ARE open-sourced. However these tools are not magically better due to the community input, the code just sits there barely being used.

Which is probably at least in part because OpenIV is better in just about every way, so there'd be no point in contributing to those projects unless you're gonna bring them up to the level of OpenIV, which takes a whole lot more effort and skill than changing OpenIV would.

 

 

Documentation would be great if the team had the resources and time to create it. Let's not forget they already develop OpenIV in their free time - they have actual jobs as software engineers in their normal hours that needs their attention first. Technical documentation is a huge undertaking and would massively increase their workload.

Writing proper documentation, certainly. But posting whatever internal documentation they already have would hardly take any time at all. Even if it's just a bunch of disorganized cryptic Russian-language text files which may or may not be littered with expletives, that's better than nothing.

 

In any case, all you've done is listed reasons why open sourcing may not benefit the project and why it may bother the developers - for whatever personal qualms they may have with open sourcing their code. I've yet to see an argument as to how opening the source would actively hurt the project, its users, or anyone else (well, except R*, if they see it that way - but who cares about that anyway).

 

Probably because there isn't one.

Edited by DrDaxxy

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XeClutch

It doesn't need to be open source. The people that are bitching about not being able to edit files are the same ones that don't know what they're talking about.

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reece22345

@DrDaxxy - The developers. The fact is that OpenIV uses licensed libraries - releasing the tool open-source would be a violation of those licences and thus, illegal. That would harm the project.

Edited by reece22345

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EddieLTU

if it goes open source, we would get more scriptkiddies modding the handling values and making harmful stuff

it's better that OpenIV allows you to just replace something that wouldn't give advantage

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TJGM

if it goes open source, we would get more scriptkiddies modding the handling values and making harmful stuff

it's better that OpenIV allows you to just replace something that wouldn't give advantage

I don't think you understand how this works. Once OpenIV has the function to import modified files into the .rpf's files anyone can edit handling values.

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co-fi

It should be open source for learning purpose.

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Droppy

I'd have to agree that would be great if OpenIV started to be open source, but it wont change much, hence the team are currently updating the code. If it goes open, do it at least if you guys decide to stop developing on it, so someone could fork and ppl could still have updates. Lots of open source scripts that people dies to be released (a.k.a freestyle dash) didn't even got a change, in this case, they decided to be back as closed source. Won't help much being open source now while there's updates xd

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