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GTA_stu

The Migration Crisis

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Svip

I know this is not of major importance, but this is hilarious. Well, it would be, if it wasn't so tragic.

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sivispacem

Well, that'll work.

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theblackswan

The question is why those refugees don't go to other Middle East countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuweit, etc. Definitely rich countries and they have the same religion.

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Dingdongs

The question is why those refugees don't go to other Middle East countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuweit, etc. Definitely rich countries and they have the same religion.

They won't take them.

 

Though, they really should.

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Abel.

The question is why those refugees don't go to other Middle East countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuweit, etc. Definitely rich countries and they have the same religion.

 

 

Personally I think the Gulf states should take a good share of these refugees. To be fair, these countries do donate a fair amount of monetary aid, but I definitely think that they should do more.

 

 

 

However, a difficulty which I've not seen brought up concerning hypothetical refuge in the Arab Gulf is the sectarian divide. Many of those fleeing Iraq and Syria are of the Shia sect or minority sects (Yazidis, Druze, etc) who contrast starkly to the overwhelmingly Sunni populations of most Arab Gulf states. I wish this weren't an issue and these countries could take them in despite this, but this is almost certainly a factor.

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D- Ice

Many of those fleeing Iraq and Syria are of the Shia sect or minority sects (Yazidis, Druze, etc) who contrast starkly to the overwhelmingly Sunni populations of most Arab Gulf states. I wish this weren't an issue and these countries could take them in despite this, but this is almost certainly a factor.

 

I don't really believe that's the case. Despite the media attention given to non-Muslim religious minorities, the vast majority of those displaced (and killed) in the current conflicts are Sunni Muslims, the same as those in the Gulf countries. Given the arbitrary nature of the Sykes-Picot borders, many even share tribal and family relations to people in the countries refusing their asylum.

 

 

 

While the Europe still accept refugies Kuwait said 'no'.

Didn't they needed help back in 1991 ?

Excellent video, thanks for posting.

I was planning on bringing up the issue of the of Gulf countries' response to the current refugee crises with this article from al-Jazeera:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2015/09/refugee-crisis-gulf-countries-150905085458691.html

(I am generally very critical of al-Jazeera, but this particular article nicely raises the issue and makes a couple of good points.)

 

It is undeniable that the Gulf nations are far better destinations for the migrants. The populations there have far more in common with the refugees - in terms of language, religion, culture, identity, and even direct family and tribal relationships - compared to the European nations now accepting them. Secondly, the Gulf is far closer and easier to reach from the migrants' countries of origin than Europe, through the Mediterranian.

The points raised by the Kuwaiti minister n the video are ridiculous, given the fact that a significant proportion of Kuwait's (and other Gulf nations') populations are permanent foreign labourers from South Asia and South-East Asia. The people from there are far poorer than Middle-Eastern refugess, and share far less in common with the native populations. With the wealth and excess that has come to define the Gulf nations, economically they're also in a far better place to give aid to those refugees.

 

The reason this is not happening is the complete lack of unity and sense of shared identity between Arab nations (at least with those in power), to the extent where Europeans seem to care far more about the refugees.

This is the result of almost a century of social engineering, initially by Western powers with Imperialist ambitions after the fall of the Ottoman Empire and creation of the Arab states, then by authoritarian dictators (who were often puppets of various outside powers).

 

If the theory I put forward in my last post is true, then the anti-IS coalition should also be interested in furthering this disunity in order to ultimately destroy the IS without resultant retaliaton from Sunnis and Sunni Arabs.

However, a good point from the al-Jazeera article is the possibility of significantly divergent views on the migrants between the leadership in the Gulf and their populations - the article talks about people petitioning their leaders there to do more for the refugees. If true, then the Gulf leaders' behaviour will reinforce the IS narrative, as it describes at the end of the article. It also means that the anti-IS coalition has a lot more work ahead to alienate Sunnis from their co-religionists who'll invariably suffer during and after an IS defeat.

 

Finally, the stories of Sunnis coming from war zones may undermine the regional media narrative, which states that the IS is worse for the Sunnis there than the anti-IS ground forces (Iraqi Shia militias, Hizbollah, Syrian Army, Kurdish militants, etc...). This might increase support for the IS in a critical region. Though this will only be the case if the people in the Gulf actually care about/identify with other Sunnis.

Edited by D- Ice

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Stephan90

News of the day Saudi Arabia has proposed to pay for the construction of 200 mosques in Germany for Syrian refugees. Why don't they take the money to care for the refugees in Syria?

 

1. Because the refugees don't want to go an unfree country like Saudi Arabia which has punishments for crimes that are similar to the ones of the Islamic State.

 

2. Saudi Arabia sees its regime endangered if to many peple from a war zone come their country fleeing from a war they are party responsible for even if it is for doing nothing and watching their "belief brothers" get killed.

 

3. They want to spread their "religion" to Europe. That is why they want to pay for 200 mosques.

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sivispacem

News of the day Saudi Arabia has proposed to pay for the construction of 200 mosques in Germany for Syrian refugees.

Source is FAZ,(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurter_Allgemeine_Zeitung) which as far as I can tell is Germany's answer to the Daily Mail in political positioning. No idea on the reputability of it as a medium but the fact no-one else is reporting it suggests it might be bollocks.

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Abel.

D-Ice: I don't for a moment believe that ISIS is worse for Sunnis in Iraq and Syria (from the point of view of those Sunni Muslims) than other actors, particularly the notorious Shia militias sponsored by Iran. I'm well aware that many Sunni Muslims are amongst the refugees that we've been seeing over the years, mostly now, as many are fleeing Assad and those who support him in the form of Hizbollah and the aforementioned Shia militias.

 

Indeed, in the short term at least, life for a Sunni Muslim under ISIS might well be preferable to life under Assad's regime or the Iraqi government. In the short term one could even argue that ISIS is providing stability for these people. In the long term ISIS is a destabilising force--any children that grow up in the "caliphate" will be so radicalised as to be ostracized by default from the mainstream Arab world.

 

 

Anyway, I'm digressing. I did overemphasise the refugees from minority groups (not that they should be overlooked, as the Druze most certainly have been by the mainstream media), but I do think that the sectarian divide is a factor in the reluctance of Gulf states to take in refugees. You're right to expand upon this by noting the level of discord that exists between Arab states. You're also right in saying that a lot of this disunity is artificial--I mean Jordan was effectively created as a barrier against the Al-Saud family and has a majority Palestinian population, nonetheless two million Palestinian refugees languish in refugee camps there, which is just senseless to me. However, I'm not sure how natural pan-Arabism really is. I mean the idea gained ground in the 1930s in no small part due to external factors--namely backing from the Nazis and the perceived threat of Jews returning en-masse to their homeland in Palestine/Eretz Yisrael. After the realisation that Nasser's rhetoric was just that, rhetoric, and that the Jewish state would not be defeated by conventional means, the idea collapsed. The very existence of Palestinian refugees today, 67 years after Israel's War of Independence, is just insane to me. Surely if "Arab unity" were worth a damn these people would've been accepted as citizens in the Arab countries to which they fled, just as the Jewish refugees of the MENA region after the Farhud were quickly settled in Israel's periphery and gradually naturalised?

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Stephan90

FAZ is pretty much the best out of the big newspapers. I have no f*cking idea why you compare it with daily mail.

 

There are plenty of other well known sources that report the same:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.de/2015/09/08/saudi-arabien-moscheen-deutschland_n_8101880.html

 

http://www.rtl.de/cms/saudi-arabien-will-bau-von-200-moscheen-in-deutschland-finanzieren-2444190.html

 

http://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2015-09/salafisten-islamismus-fluechtlinge-propaganda

 

Even the general secretary of one of the government parties (CSU) Andreas Scheuer has rejected the offer.

 

https://twitter.com/AndiScheuer

 

"Das Verhalten Saudi-Arabiens, selbst keine Flüchtlinge aufzunehmen, aber in Deutschland Moscheen bauen zu wollen, ist mehr als zynisch."

 

"The behaviour of Saudi Arabia not to host refugees on its own, but to want to build mosques in Germany is more than cynical."

 

You are making yourself look ridiculous.

Edited by Stephan90

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sivispacem

FAZ is pretty much the best out of the big newspapers.

In your opinion.

 

 

I have no f*cking idea why you compare it with daily mail.

Both middle-market, Conservative papers?

 

 

There are plenty of other well known sources that report the same:

All of which cite FAZ, which in turn cites (but doesn't reference) a Lebanese newspaper. And, as we all know, no-one is more clued up on the intents of Saudi Arabia than Lebanon, a country which is still effectively a Syrian/Iranian proxy state, clearly neither of whom have any incentive to spread misinformation about Saudi Arabia...

 

 

Even the general secretary of one of the government parties (CSU) Andreas Scheuer has rejected the offer.

A statement on Twitter doesn't exactly constitute evidence that the proposal was ever actually a thing. It's equally valid as a response to the rumour mill/press assertion.

 

 

You are making yourself look ridiculous.

Actually, I'm casting a critical eye on what seemed a pretty questionable comment, and which seems even stranger on further inspection given that it's original source isn't actually based in either country involved and no explanation has been given as to the validity of the information. Rather like in the case of the "ISIS fighter" from the other page, I'm not one for just parroting any old bullsh*t I find spaffed all over the internet.

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theblackswan

So now a Brit talks about what newspapers are legit in Germany and what are not?

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sivispacem

You think it's uncommon for even good papers to report utter bilge?

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sammystarock

Honestly, I would feel bad for the refugees having to go the Gulf states.

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D- Ice

...any children that grow up in the "caliphate" will be so radicalised as to be ostracized by default from the mainstream Arab world.

 

The very existence of Palestinian refugees today, 67 years after Israel's War of Independence, is just insane to me. Surely if "Arab unity" were worth a damn these people would've been accepted as citizens in the Arab countries to which they fled, just as the Jewish refugees of the MENA region after the Farhud were quickly settled in Israel's periphery and gradually naturalised?

Your reason for the IS being worse for the Sunnis than the ground forces fighting them is that it will cause ostracisation of future generations in the eyes of other Arabs.

Firstly, this is by no means an established fact. It is currently the focus of the ideological battle between the IS and the West, and the outcome remains to be seen.

Secondly, you quite correctly identify how weak (and even non-existant) notions of Arab solidarity and unity are. Here, you unwittingly undermined yourself - if Arab states have been so disunited, and even hostile to one another's populations before, what real practical difference would ostracisation make (especially in light of the Sunnis' fate otherwise)?

 

However, I'm not sure how natural pan-Arabism really is. I mean the idea gained ground in the 1930s in no small part due to external factors--namely backing from the Nazis and the perceived threat of Jews returning en-masse to their homeland in Palestine/Eretz Yisrael. After the realisation that Nasser's rhetoric was just that, rhetoric, and that the Jewish state would not be defeated by conventional means, the idea collapsed. The very existence of Palestinian refugees today, 67 years after Israel's War of Independence, is just insane to me.

You talk about Pan-Arabism and Arab Socialism, political movements which neither started, nor wholly represent notions of Arab unity. The latter has more to do with the Arab identity, and the Arabisation of the MENA region, and is as natural and organic as the solidarity found amongst any ethnic group.

Your claims are essentially as ludacris as claiming that notions of Jewish unity started with, and are wholly represented by, Zionism and the creation of Israel.

Though, as mentioned before, you are correct in that notions of Arab unity have all but disappeared now.

 

Regardless, notions of Sunni Muslim unity are what's relevant to this discussion, as that's what the IS and various other international Islamist movements are looking to take advantage of.

Edited by D- Ice

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Dingdongs

You think it's uncommon for even good papers to report utter bilge?

I don't find it surprising that the Saudis would do something like that, though I'm willing to bet the article went far beyond what they actually offered. The Saudi government may well have offered money to provide help for Islamic services for the refugees (with a Wahhabi slant obviously, a la Indonesia/Malaysia). The idea that they just said "Hey 200 mosques in Germany now" sounds off, though.

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sivispacem

 

You think it's uncommon for even good papers to report utter bilge?

I don't find it surprising that the Saudis would do something like that, though I'm willing to bet the article went far beyond what they actually offered. The Saudi government may well have offered money to provide help for Islamic services for the refugees (with a Wahhabi slant obviously, a la Indonesia/Malaysia). The idea that they just said "Hey 200 mosques in Germany now" sounds off, though.

 

I agree totally, but it doesn't stop the fundamental claim of the German press reports being horse manure.

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Abel.

 

...any children that grow up in the "caliphate" will be so radicalised as to be ostracized by default from the mainstream Arab world.

The very existence of Palestinian refugees today, 67 years after Israel's War of Independence, is just insane to me. Surely if "Arab unity" were worth a damn these people would've been accepted as citizens in the Arab countries to which they fled, just as the Jewish refugees of the MENA region after the Farhud were quickly settled in Israel's periphery and gradually naturalised?

Your reason for the IS being worse for the Sunnis than the ground forces fighting them is that it will cause ostracisation of future generations in the eyes of other Arabs.

Firstly, this is by no means an established fact. It is currently the focus of the ideological battle between the IS and the West, and the outcome remains to be seen.

Secondly, you quite correctly identify how weak (and even non-existant) notions of Arab solidarity and unity are. Here, you unwittingly undermined yourself - if Arab states have been so disunited, and even hostile to one another's populations before, what real practical difference would ostracisation make (especially in light of the Sunnis' fate otherwise)?

 

This is a good point, but I still don't think my argument's made wholly redundant by it. I honestly see no way that an accepted, internationally-recognised state can emerge from ISIS, or even a de-facto state recognised solely by the Sunnis of the Arab world. Even Saudi Arabia, where ISIS' ideology began, generally views the group warily and is engaged in the fight against it due to the kingdom's economic and political ties with the West.

 

 

I was trying to say that full Arab unity is not something that can realistically expected, I wasn't saying that every Arab state is wholly out for itself and has no concern whatsoever with its neighbours. I used pan-Arabism and the treatment of Palestinian refugees by Arab countries to exemplify the general lack of unity in the Arab world. You claimed that this disunity was artificial and imposed externally on the Arab world, I argued against this.

 

 

Also, for the record, I hold the Arab world in higher regard than to ever expect it to reconcile with ISIS and recognise its self-styled "caliphate".

 

 

As for whether ISIS is worse than the ground forces that combats it, I would overwhelmingly say yes. There are exceptions, such as the various Shia paramilitary groups which have ties to Saddam's death squads, Hizbollah (though even I must admit that this is a stretch) and, of course, the Assad regime (also I've no love for the rival Salafist groups that ISIS wars against). This is my view, but that doesn't really mean much. The question of "who is worse" is best answered by those actually living in the territories affected by ISIS and any answer will differ wildly depending on the religious/ethnic group to which the person answering belongs.

Edited by Failure

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Der_Don

 

News of the day Saudi Arabia has proposed to pay for the construction of 200 mosques in Germany for Syrian refugees.

Source is FAZ,(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurter_Allgemeine_Zeitung) which as far as I can tell is Germany's answer to the Daily Mail in political positioning. No idea on the reputability of it as a medium but the fact no-one else is reporting it suggests it might be bollocks.

 

Daily Mail and Faz are nothing alike. The FAZ is a very reputable paper. To compare it with the Mail is, quite frankly, daft.

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gooeyhole

I feel bad for them for sure. But they are a tad bit misleading. Truth is, the refugees aren't children and young women. They are military aged men. Plus it's pretty interesting how they are sent to so many white nations like Germany and not any Asian countries or Israel. Israel knows that they want to sustain a homogenous country because it's what works. Islam will take over most of Europe by sheer numbers alone. Germany is going overboard.

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Tchuck

I feel bad for them for sure. But they are a tad bit misleading. Truth is, the refugees aren't children and young women. They are military aged men. Plus it's pretty interesting how they are sent to so many white nations like Germany and not any Asian countries or Israel. Israel knows that they want to sustain a homogenous country because it's what works. Islam will take over most of Europe by sheer numbers alone. Germany is going overboard.

 

Care to source that?

 

You speak of the refugees as if they are a foreign covert military force that is out with the intent of spreading Islam into Europe and convert it and destroy it.

 

They aren't sent anywhere. They are fleeing, going to the place where they think they will be safest. Some of them might have friends and family members in European countries. Should they not go there?

And looking at the data, it appears that most of them are still heading and staying at nearby countries like Turkey and Lebanon.

 

 

 

they want to sustain a homogenous country because it's what works.

 

Hm, care to elaborate on that? Or is it just your opinion?

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gooeyhole

Opinion and an observation. Japan is Japanese and has a low birth rate yet sustain a high quality of life. I think putting 800 thousand refugees in Germany is suicide.

 

Recently they've been denying food in Hungary and have demanded to be moved again to Sweden.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/cp/reporters-notebook/migrants/hungary-treatment-refugees

 

The word is out now that you can get benefits elsewhere. Why will they ever stay in their home country? I feel like the next few decades will see families from Syria sending their children to Europe.

 

I hope that they integrate well but we have to be honest here, not everyone will. Crime will go up. They aren't taking in Syrian babies. If you look at the videos and pictures, you seen men. But that's not a statistic of course so I'm just talking sh*t about that.

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 dice

 

Truth is, the refugees aren't children and young women. They are military aged men.

Care to source that?

 

Well the data is on the same page you linked

http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.html#_ga=1.12561396.1568136279.1441839677

 

Out of the 380k refugees who arrived in Italy and Greece 73% are supposedly male, while 13% are women and 15% children

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sivispacem

Opinion and an observation. Japan is Japanese and has a low birth rate yet sustain a high quality of life.

The Japanese quality of life has begun dropping, their economy has been stagnant for decades, and they have an impending problem of baby-boomer era people reaching retirement age that's so serious no political party has anything resembling a coherent policy to resolve it.

 

It's not exactly what countries should be aspiring towards.

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gooeyhole

 

Opinion and an observation. Japan is Japanese and has a low birth rate yet sustain a high quality of life.

The Japanese quality of life has begun dropping, their economy has been stagnant for decades, and they have an impending problem of baby-boomer era people reaching retirement age that's so serious no political party has anything resembling a coherent policy to resolve it.

 

It's not exactly what countries should be aspiring towards.

I'm a racist I suppose. I would prefer that Germany belong to the Germans and not the refugees. But if they import a million a year, Germany isn't for the Germans anymore.

 

I don't want the Syrians in Europe just like I don't want the Chinese in Africa. Both are taking it over.

 

To me it's pretty obvious what's going on. Europe is now turning into a mixture of Arabs and Africans ran by a select few elite.

Edited by Canadian Badass

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Svip

 

 

Opinion and an observation. Japan is Japanese and has a low birth rate yet sustain a high quality of life.

The Japanese quality of life has begun dropping, their economy has been stagnant for decades, and they have an impending problem of baby-boomer era people reaching retirement age that's so serious no political party has anything resembling a coherent policy to resolve it.

 

It's not exactly what countries should be aspiring towards.

I'm a racist I suppose. I would prefer that Germany belong to the Germans and not the refugees. But if they import a million a year, Germany isn't for the Germans anymore.

 

I don't want the Syrians in Europe just like I don't want the Chinese in Africa. Both are taking it over.

 

To me it's pretty obvious what's going on. Europe is now turning into a mixture of Arabs and Africans ran by a select few elite.

 

 

OK, I get that you are a racist. Whatever. But the comparison between Syrians in Europe and Chinese in Africa is nonsense.

 

Chinese people aren't fleeing China for some better life in Africa. We are talking about Chinese corporations moving into Africa and rather than employing the local population, they move people in from China to work for their companies. So Chinese companies moving into Africa have done very little to stimulate the African economies. But that's a questionable business practice. Syrians are fleeing a civil war. That's hardly comparable.

 

Unless you feel any ethnicity should not live in a country not 'originally' occupied by them. Well, tell that to the Visigoths.

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WhitePimp

 

 

 

Opinion and an observation. Japan is Japanese and has a low birth rate yet sustain a high quality of life.

The Japanese quality of life has begun dropping, their economy has been stagnant for decades, and they have an impending problem of baby-boomer era people reaching retirement age that's so serious no political party has anything resembling a coherent policy to resolve it.

 

It's not exactly what countries should be aspiring towards.

I'm a racist I suppose. I would prefer that Germany belong to the Germans and not the refugees. But if they import a million a year, Germany isn't for the Germans anymore.

 

I don't want the Syrians in Europe just like I don't want the Chinese in Africa. Both are taking it over.

 

To me it's pretty obvious what's going on. Europe is now turning into a mixture of Arabs and Africans ran by a select few elite.

 

 

Syrians are fleeing a civil war. That's hardly comparable.

 

 

Hmm but I can't remember the British running when World War 2 was going on. We stood and fought. I'm sick of these people that are saying that they are completely powerless and weak yet they can cause riots in Australia and Britain. Most of the men that are migrating are in great shape and you're telling me that they are completely doomed? Get a f*cking grip please. It's not my fault that you've fell for the guilt trip by the media. Maybe you should consider that Britain, the US and Europe will become an Islamic state very shortly. Muslims in Britain are crying that the Red Cross sign offends them and so does the cross of Jesus and still our pathetic government tends to their needs because of the fear of being called racist. Britain is a Christian place and shouldn't be changed but I know for a fact it will. Not only that but the white British will soon become a minority in their own country and you're f*cking backing them! A whole lot of side affects will come with it such as Muslim gangs forming, crimes targeting British people and several terrorist groups will shortly be popping up. It's very likely that a bombing will occur soon in one of the countries. No precautions are being taken. David Cameron recently took out money from a cancer fund to tend to the new wave of migrants. Maybe he should do his f*cking job and tend to his own people before he starts worrying about others. Homeless ex army veterans are on the street meanwhile the government couldn't give a complete toss about them. I remember reading an article today about one of the leaders of Saudi Arabia offering Germany to build 200 mosques. Doesn't this sound like an Islamic invasion for the purpose to spread the Muslim religion. f*cking wake up people!

 

britain-first-founder-quits.si.jpg

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gooeyhole

I'm just not convinced that these migrants are people trying to escape poverty, at least not all of them. There's been pictures all over Twitter showing ISIS members that are part of the refugee...collective. I think it is a shame that the German people will be out bred in my lifetime. Seeing Germany go from a white nation to a nation that's primarily Islamic is just sad to me. If I said that in Germany I'd probably be arrested for being a Nazi.

 

I am a fan of preserving a countries genes. Germany isn't Germany without ethnic Germans. Diversity is the difference between black and white, not a Europe dominated by Arabs.

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Svip

 

Syrians are fleeing a civil war. That's hardly comparable.

Hmm but I can't remember the British running when World War 2 was going on. We stood and fought.

 

 

Again the UK was attacked by an external force. The British had their government and their military behind them. Syria is in a civil war, where the government and military is against them. Not comparable.

 

I'm sick of these people that are saying that they are completely powerless and weak yet they can cause riots in Australia and Britain.

 

Often by people who don't particularly like these refugees. But causing riots is again not comparable to fighting off the Luftwaffe. Any idiot can make a riot.

 

Most of the men that are migrating are in great shape and you're telling me that they are completely doomed?

 

How does being in great shape help against tanks? Or mustard gas? Or heavy firearms in general?

 

Maybe you should consider that Britain, the US and Europe will become an Islamic state very shortly.

 

Wouldn't that require a majority of Muslims? This refugee crisis still only amounts to 0.2% of the EU's population. Also, how did the US get into this? Are Mexicans Muslims now?

 

It's very likely that a bombing will occur soon in one of the countries. No precautions are being taken.

 

Didn't bombs happen years ago in London before this crisis? I am pretty sure terrorism in Europe goes way back. Hey, why is it you celebrate Bonfire Night?

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