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GTA_stu

The Migration Crisis

Recommended Posts

Smith John

Whether you take me seriously or not is of extremely minimul matter to me.

 

And you already have more of a knowledge of my personal life than I'm comfortable with.

 

Ken m8

Edited by John Smith

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sivispacem

you just list some facts and figures which can easily be disputed or given an alternative spin

As opposed to no figures and just spin? If those figures are so easy to dispute, why don't you?

 

It's basically "but this person says it isn't" and you don't elaborate yourself.

??? Not really sure what you mean here. It's not really a case of "this person", it's more a case of "this study backed up by empirical evidence", which sure, is open to informed critique. But equally I don't see you assembling a coherent counter-argument based on anything other than "well, that's not my personal experience".

 

I don't need a source to tell you that there's, and I don't wanna sound like Miliband, "a cost of living crisis

No, but you might need a decent explanation as to why you think this is in any way a product of immigration, as well as why you've come to the conclusion that these factors are so serious that you're willing to mitigate the fairly sizeable, empirically demonstrable set of positive benefits to prevent them.

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Clem Fandango

Britain's infrastructure is crumbling because of the election of a series of increasingly right-wing governments, it's not because there's too many darkies. I get that it's easier to rail against people that are below you in society rather than address inherent problems in the system, but try to get a grip boys.

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sivispacem

I wouldn't personally put the blame at the door of whether the government leans left or right but it's certainly not caused by immigration. The issue isn't an absence of money or, healthcare and housing excepted, poor central government policy. It's institutional bloat, top-heaviness (largely promoted by NuLab it must be said) and the groupthink typical of organisations completely largely heterogenous and devoid of dissenting opinion or critical thinking.

 

And as has already been mentioned, I'm really, really not leftist.

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Dingdongs

Britain's infrastructure is crumbling because of the election of a series of increasingly right-wing governments, it's not because there's too many darkies. I get that it's easier to rail against people that are below you in society rather than address inherent problems in the system, but try to get a grip boys.

That's pretty hard to argue. Pretty sure the government all around sucks whether there is a right wing or a left wing person in charge.

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Melech

I have read a great op-ed by Spanish Jewish columnist Eduardo Goligorsky. It's entitled "Serious hypocrisy". I will translate some excerpts:

 

"Europe is, once again, in the dock. Her guilt is proven in advance. Her past makes her suspicious of the worst transgressions and her present seems to justify this implacable conviction. What is her most recent crime? Closing her borders to hundreds of thousands of people fleeing the massacres and famine ravaging Africa and causing, with her insensitivity, that many of them find their tomb in the sea.

 

This story should alert every civilized man to safeguard the lives and rights of so many helpless people. Europe, as self-made justice-seekers claim, is incorrigible. But is this story true? Who are these guardians of virtue, always barricaded in neighborhoods where there is not even the hum of immigrants? And above all, what alternatives are they proposing to alleviate these evils and to save those lives?

 

[...]

 

While these militants of do-goodism are flogging us with their invectives, representatives of the European Union announced measures against the mafias that are trafficking in human beings and established quotas for distributing the refugees among member countries. Two initiatives that are usseless from the beginning. Mafias act mainly from Libya, a failed state where two antagonistic tribal and religious conglomerates refuse to assist in the cleanup operation. How would they work if they are the major shareholders of this lucrative oligopoly? As for quotas, governments do not even agree on the magnitude nor the criteria to differentiate between potential asylum seekers and economic migrants.

The pompous solemn debates are steeped in hypocrisy, because those involved in them are first ones convinced that this is one of the many human tragedies that have no solution. And they are also fully aware of something that the militants of do-goodism ignore or pretend to ignore, to avoid prejudicing his merciful image:those responsible for European security know that behind this migration new stages of a relentless war are hidden.

 

[...]

 

This conflict can also help to debunk the black legend that attributes all ills of the world to European colonialism and the attempt to impose the supremacy of the white man. Human nature is much more complex than what these anti-European racists want us to believe. What about Muslim refugees who launched the African Christian passengers overboard to create more space or simply because they hate them?

 

Our solidarity intellectuals should have also supported black victims of black perpetrators when the South African army was ordered to intervene to protect immigrants from Zimbabwe, Mozambique and Malawi because natives attacked their shops and houses, with a balance of seven dead and 5,000 people who fled their homes. And they should also worry about the fate of six thousand Muslim Rohingya refugees who were expelled from Burma and Bangladesh by these exeplary pacifists who claim to be Buddhists, sailing adrift off the coast of Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand without water or food. The press has not had to deal with them. Neither our progressives."

 

[...]

 

The full article (in Spanish): http://www.libertaddigital.com/opinion/eduardo-goligorsky/solemne-hipocresia-75790/

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Doc Rikowski

I'm sorry Pali but with all the due respect for his opinion I've never read so much crap about the immigration topic in a single article.

He seems someone detached from reality and I guess he has some issue with people he knows personally, left wing intellectuals or journalists I suppose.

Of course he has the right to disagree with this people but at the end of the day, regular people, doesn't give a f*ck about him and about the left wing intellectuals and journalists he disagrees with. Straw man all over the place when he talks about South Africa. If I'm in favour of supporting immigrants in Europe I should also be in favour of supporting immigrants in South Africa? Well, duh, of course I support both, just as I support immigrants enslaved in Qatar to build stadiums for the World Cup. That's the difference between some racist right winger like him and normal people like me. We support all humans, he supports just some humans previously approved by his racist bias. Funnily enough the guy that writes an article about hypocrisy is the biggest hypocrite.

 

I'm quite sure that if we search a little bit we'll find similar articles written against European immigrants in the past century. I know a few about Italians in America. What does this mean? This journalist is stuck in a forgotten past from which we already progressed decades ago. Europe needs to go forward, not back to obscurantism and colonialism.

Edited by Doc Rikowski

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Smith John

It now appears the PC leftists want to brandish the word 'migrant' a "dirty word":

 

https://youtu.be/cgpByZvHd3Y

 

Do these f*cking wanks know no bounds?

 

I want to brandish the term 'political correctness' a dirty term. Wait, I already do...

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Doc Rikowski

Immigrants spending the night on rocks at the border of Italy and France. Watched by Police of both countries. France didn't allow them to cross the borders.

A loss for civilization. These anti-immigration policies should be called for what they are: racial laws.

I feel ashamed for what Europe has become.

112537017-a35e9600-6e90-48c0-86a2-276639I

112537963-cdf33e7c-e871-4faf-9466-5d2412

112536991-45f94607-854f-4be7-80be-e93f6a

Edited by Doc Rikowski

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acmilano

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33972632

 

http://www.france24.com/en/20150820-macedonia-migrants-state-emergency-refugee-crisis

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/08/greece-kos-refugee-crisis-ferry-syrians-150819194335100.html

 

Situation with refugies become wery hard for entire continent. My cousin travelled through Greece,Macedonia and Serbia recently and told me about thousands of refugies walking towards EU. Wars in Middle East will not be over soon,so even more people wliig go toward Europe.

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GTA_stu

Yup, over 100,000 arrivals in just 1 month. The situation only seems to be getting worse too. Meanwhile Germany says it expects 750,000 asylum seekers in just the space of 1 year. Those are just applications and the actual amount given stay will be lower, but it's still staggering. The anti-immigration Sweden Democrats are now the largest party in Sweden: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/11814498/Anti-immigrant-Sweden-Democrats-now-the-biggest-party-according-to-poll.html All over Europe we're seeing a surge in right-wing anti-immigration parties, and polls show overwhelmingly that people are opposed to large scale immigration into their countries and into Europe. And yet the EU and the governments of countries just ignore the will of the people and stab everyone in the back, carrying on with their agendas to weaken national identify and the idea of the nation state.

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Stephan90

In one refugee camp in Germany, muslim refugees wanted to lynch another refugee who allegedly wanted to flush quaran pages down the toilet and they felt he insulted the quran. They demolished the refugee camp, police vehicles and fought with iron bars.

 

The left wing prime minister of the state says that these eruptions of violence happened because there are too many refugees on small space and he wants that refugees are housed separated by ethniticity. How racist from him. No need to separate them, because they are all peaceful.

Edited by Stephan90

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Kafonix

In one refugee camp in Germany, muslim refugees wanted to lynch another refugee who allegedly wanted to flush quaran pages down the toilet and they felt he insulted the quran. They demolished the refugee camp, police vehicles and fought with iron bars.

 

The left wing prime minister of the state says that these eruptions of violence happened because there are too many refugees on small space and he wants that refugees are housed separated by ethniticity. How racist from him. No need to separate them, because they are all peaceful.

 

This is a very one-sided opinion to this topic.

 

The situation in refugee camps are worse than in slums in the USA.

Sometimes there are national socialist scumbags throwing molotovs(!) through the windows or otherwise disturbing those camps. There's simply not enough space to build more space for refugees due to the right-wing extremists blocking every possible building space.

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Stephan90

This event has little to do with not enough space. It happened because the perpetrators are fanatics, who think it is justified to use violence when they feel the quran was insulted. One sided is the reaction of the prime minister who wants to distract the people from the true reason. I don't know what this eruption of violence has to do with people from outside the refugee camp. Nothing like this was mentioned in the media.

Edited by Stephan90

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Dingdongs

I'm the last one to defend the actions of a serious criminal/terrorist, but are you going to tell me that being crammed in a refuge camp like that with disgusting conditions wouldn't make you a bit "radical" too?

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Stephan90

No one said that the refugee camp was in a "disgusting condition". There are rules for almost everything in Germany. The only problem is that there are more refugees in several refugee homes than they were designed for, because this year 800,000 people are expected to arrive. That is not a justification for not cleaning up your own mess. The refugee home was in a bad condition AFTER this eruption of violence and not BEFORE.

 

Too few space is the most stupid excuse for this case of totally unnecessary violence that happened because of religious fanatism.

Edited by Stephan90

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acmilano

https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10153012489196939/

 

Things will be only worst. And with current way governments are handling situation,no suprise. I'm not saying that I know solution,probably nobody know right now. With more problems in Libanon and Turkey,,the flow of refugies will be only bigger.

 

Edit: Some 50 refugies found dead suffocated in Truck in Austria. RIP

 

http://www.bild.de/news/ausland/fluechtling/50-fluechtlinge-tot-in-lkw-42348642.bild.html

 

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/27/migrants-found-dead-inside-lorry-in-austria

 

 

The bodies of at least 20 migrants – and possibly as many as 40 or 50 – have been found inside a parked lorry in eastern Austria, police said on Thursday, in a grim indication of the growing human toll of Europe’s worst refugee emergency since 1945.

The badly decomposed remains were discovered on Thursday morning on Austria’s A4 motorway between Neusiedl and Parndorf. The truck had been abandoned on the hard shoulder of the road near Parndorf. It had apparently been there since Wednesday. The refugees, who appeared to have suffocated, died before they entered Austria, police said.

Hans Peter Doskozil, head of police in the district of Burgenland, said there were at least 20 dead but that the death toll could rise to 40 or 50. The state of the bodies made establishing an exact figure difficult. The identities were also not known, he said.

“The deaths already occurred some time ago,” he added. “We can make no concrete assumptions about the origin or cause [of death]. We can assume, however, that they are refugees.”

The deaths overshadowed a meeting in Vienna of leaders from the EU and the western Balkans to discuss the European migration crisis. The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, said she was “shaken by the awful news”. “This reminds us that we in Europe need to tackle the problem quickly and find solutions in the spirit of solidarity,” she said.

Merkel added: “This is a warning for us to tackle the issue of migration quickly. We have more refugees in the world than at any time since world war II. The world’s eyes are upon us.”

Edited by acmilano

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GTA_stu

Interesting interview with a French author, he raises a lot of good points.

 

 

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make total destroy

I don't know, it kind of sounds like he's just afraid of brown people. Just an old, out-of-touch, bourgeois monarchist.

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GTA_stu

It's got absolutely nothing to do with disliking, hating, or being afraid of anyone. This idea perpetuated by the left that it is, is one of the biggest straw men in history.

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make total destroy

The anti-immigration fervor is alarmist bullsh*t based on nothing other than fear and prejudice. Literally the entire point of Raspail's little rant is that "different ethnicities are entering Europe." The horror.

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GTA_stu

I don't know if you watched all of it or not, but he isn't saying there's an issue with different ethnicities existing or entering France and Europe. He doesn't say that once. His issue is that the excessive numbers will lead to a vastly different identity where the native inhabitants get displaced and become minorities. Not wanting that to happen doesn't make you racist. Are Native Americans racist because they feel sad about their history and the fact they're a minority in their own lands? Are the Aboriginals in Australia hateful and full of prejudice?

 

Wanting your people to remain a majority in their homeland, and to be autonomous, is a perfectly healthy and honourable thing to want. It's good when Tibetans want that, and when the Kurds do, but somehow it's hateful if Europeans express the same desires. It isn't based on fear and prejudice at all, that's just an incredibly weak and completely false argument used to try shut down debate and opposition, and delegitamise people's perfectly reasonable concerns.

Edited by GTA_stu

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Clem Fandango

Are Native Americans racist because they feel sad about their history and the fact they're a minority in their own lands? Are the Aboriginals in Australia hateful and full of prejudice?

If white settlement were peaceful this would be a fair comparison. The aborigines aren't upset that they're surrounded by white people, they're upset about a militaristic foreign culture ruthlessly slaughtering the vast majority of them, tearing children out of their mothers arms and putting them in Anglicisation camps (in the 70s!), continuing marginalisation and deprivation... just so many f*cking things. I know people who were considered 'native wildlife' at the time of their birth.

 

If the British had rocked up like 'yo, can we join your society down here and we'll bring all our guns and plumbing' then yes the aborigines would have been racist to turn them away.

 

 

 

Wanting your people to remain a majority in their homeland, and to be autonomous, is a perfectly healthy and honourable thing to want. It's good when Tibetans want that, and when the Kurds do, but somehow it's hateful if Europeans express the same desires

The Kurdish have common interest because high-born and low-born Kurds alike are oppressed by the states in which they live. The British have no common interest outside of not descending into a Mad Max-esque future.

 

Nationalism is a false consciousness. Your solidarity shouldn't be with people much more powerful than you who oppress you but happen to also eat fish and chips and have a creamy pink skin tone. Your solidarity should be with people in the same social and economic position as you, no matter which side of an arbitrary national boundary they fall on.

Edited by Melchior

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sivispacem

His issue is that the excessive numbers will lead to a vastly different identity where the native inhabitants get displaced and become minorities.

Notwithstanding the fact that just isn't going to happen (the idea of "native citizens" becoming minorities is a far right scare tactic with little to no bearing on actual reality; the fun fact about the term is that it's nice fluid, becoming a "domestic citizen" isn't actually hard unless you're using some ridiculous and arbitrary subjective version of what it actually means which reminds me, pretty sure I asked for a coherent definition of that term what, three months ago), I don't see how this amounts to anything more than MTD's summary of the speaker's position. Fear of becoming a minority in one's own country defining views on immigration isn't any more coherent a view than fear of meteorites defining whether or not to go outside.

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GTA_stu

 

Are Native Americans racist because they feel sad about their history and the fact they're a minority in their own lands? Are the Aboriginals in Australia hateful and full of prejudice?

If white settlement were peaceful this would be a fair comparison. The aborigines aren't upset that they're surrounded by white people, they're upset about a militaristic foreign culture ruthlessly slaughtering the vast majority of them, tearing children out of their mothers arms and putting them in Anglicisation camps (in the 70s!), continuing marginalisation and deprivation... just so many f*cking things. I know people who were considered 'native wildlife' at the time of their birth.

 

If the British had rocked up like 'yo, can we join your society down here and we'll bring all our guns and plumbing' then yes the aborigines would have been racist to turn them away.

 

Hang on a second, British colonialists did not "slaughter the vast majority of them", I don't know where you're getting that from. If there had actually been a goal of genocide and slaughter like you're saying then there would be no aboriginal Australians left alive today.

 

In terms of not being upset about being surrounded by white people, I don't get your point. It's not the fact that Europeans would be surrounded by black or brown people that upsets us, especially since this is already the case anyways. It's the sense of loss in no longer being autonomous as a people and our identity being destroyed when we become minorities in our own countries. The aboriginals never had that in the first place, because they were hunter gatherers and didn't have complex governance or autonomy or even written language, and their sense of identity is completely different than a Europeans is to their country. Their identity is still largely in tact since it never involved being a collective group based on the notion of "Australia". It's more basic and tribal and hasn't been that disrupted by large scale colonisation/immigration. They didn't even know what Australia was or how big it was.

 

How would it have been racist for them to turn the British away? The only reason they would have turned us away in the first place was because we'd have competed for resources and been potential threats.

 

 

The Kurdish have common interest because high-born and low-born Kurds alike are oppressed by the states in which they live. The British have no common interest outside of not descending into a Mad Max-esque future.

 

Nationalism is a false consciousness. Your solidarity shouldn't be with people much more powerful than you who oppress you but happen to also eat fish and chips and have a creamy pink skin tone. Your solidarity should be with people in the same social and economic position as you, no matter which side of an arbitrary national boundary they fall on.

 

 

Kurds have more reasons than just being treated badly, behind wanting to form their own country. They want to be free as a people because they have a shared culture, language, history, ethnicity. They exist as a distinct people. Same as the British do. There's much more to it than just survival. Much more.

 

Nationalism is a false consciousness according to you. Most people find it quite agreeable actually. So who are you or anyone else to deny them? If you identify with some guy in Pakistan or a woman in the Central African Republic or a guy in an Inuit village because you have a similar income then good for you. That's fine. But most people identify with others based on less general and more specific things like language, religion, culture, ethnicity, shared heritage, shared ancestry, shared homeland, shared collective charity, shared glory, shared loss. And these can often all be found together in the idea of the nation. Which is why it's such a powerful idea in the first place. It isn't an abstract idea it is a very physical idea in so many ways.

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GTA_stu

 

His issue is that the excessive numbers will lead to a vastly different identity where the native inhabitants get displaced and become minorities.

Notwithstanding the fact that just isn't going to happen (the idea of "native citizens" becoming minorities is a far right scare tactic with little to no bearing on actual reality; the fun fact about the term is that it's nice fluid, becoming a "domestic citizen" isn't actually hard unless you're using some ridiculous and arbitrary subjective version of what it actually means which reminds me, pretty sure I asked for a coherent definition of that term what, three months ago), I don't see how this amounts to anything more than MTD's summary of the speaker's position. Fear of becoming a minority in one's own country defining views on immigration isn't any more coherent a view than fear of meteorites defining whether or not to go outside.

 

 

How is it a scare tactic? There is a very real possibility that in 40, 50, 60, 70 years ethnic Brits/French/Swedes will be less than 50% of the population in their respective countries. If current immigration levels persist, and the birth rate of native ethnic groups continues to stay low, and the birth rate non-native ethnic groups continues to stay high, then it will happen. It's not a question of if, but a question of when.

 

You want a definition of what makes a person ethnicly British? How about this: "Genetic ancestry predominantly (80-100%) consisting of the people that have been inhabiting the British Isles since they were first settled roughly 12,000-15,000 years ago." There you go Sivis, I know you've been wanting that more than an Iphone 8.

 

So Tibetans are just being silly when they fear that the Chinese are attempting to make them a minority by increasing the immigration levels of Han Chinese into Tibet? They should be more or equally worried about being struck by a meteorite? Or rather, someone who is worried about being struck by a meteorite is about as rational in their fear, as a Tibetan who worries they're being ethnically displaced is in their fear?

Edited by GTA_stu

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Svip

Yes, because between now and 40 years from now, there is no chance of things changing. That's how statistics work! Did you know, that by 2052 more than 50% of the Danish population would be a member of a teenage girl band? That was the very fear in 2003. Strangely, however, since 2003 that didn't pan out like that.

 

The current extremely high influx of immigrants into Europe is the result of wars and conflicts currently ongoing in Africa and the Middle East. This exodus will not stop if Europe gets together to build a giant wall around itself, but rather be stopped when these conflicts die out. I sure as hell hope that the Syrian Civil War doesn't last 40 more years.

 

Predicting 40 years into the future of something this volatile is a fool's errant at best. The UK's current plan seems to be closing off its own borders and letting the rest of the EU deal with it, even though I'm sure the UK had more a hand in creating the conflicts than most EU member states. (Although, in fairness, it seems other EU member states want to close off its own borders as well.)

Edited by Svip

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make total destroy

I don't know if you watched all of it or not, but he isn't saying there's an issue with different ethnicities existing or entering France and Europe. He doesn't say that once. His issue is that the excessive numbers will lead to a vastly different identity where the native inhabitants get displaced and become minorities. Not wanting that to happen doesn't make you racist. Are Native Americans racist because they feel sad about their history and the fact they're a minority in their own lands? Are the Aboriginals in Australia hateful and full of prejudice?

Raspail more-or-less claims that a rising number of different ethnicites entering Europe will result in a "clash of civilizations", ultimately leading to the end of Europe as we know it. I mean, you can't reasonably claim this has nothing to do with race or ethnicity when the concern is rooted in the fear of a white minority, when your concerns are based entirely on race and ethnicity. That's disingenuous to say the least. In any case, I don't think you can compare immigration to Europe from war-torn, impoverished nations, to the forced colonization of entire continents--and in many cases, genocide of it's inhabitants--by imperial European powers. That's completely and utterly absurd.

 

 

Wanting your people to remain a majority in their homeland, and to be autonomous, is a perfectly healthy and honourable thing to want. It's good when Tibetans want that, and when the Kurds do, but somehow it's hateful if Europeans express the same desires. It isn't based on fear and prejudice at all, that's just an incredibly weak and completely false argument used to try shut down debate and opposition, and delegitamise people's perfectly reasonable concerns.

Again, your insistence that the plight of the white European man (lol) is at all on par with the oppression the Kurds--or any other oppressed group endures--is just utterly absurd. It's almost as though you don't want to be a minority because minorities are treated like sh*t, or something crazy like that. :rol:

Edited by make total destroy

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Svip

"End of Europe as we know it"? I believe that has happened a few times all ready.

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make total destroy

Europe as we know it needs to end anyway, but that's a whole nother story innit

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