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The Migration Crisis


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It's the basic concept of stealing people's stuff that I don't like. Denmark may have a strong welfare state, but people on 'benefits' (as Americans call it) aren't actually stolen their items, because the government doesn't actually inspect what these people have before they are placed on welfare support (which requires fulfilling some requirements about income, livelihood and whether or not they have a job, all things that can be put on a piece of paper).

 

So I won't accept the premise of your first question, but I will concur with your second question.

 

To be honest it's not that deplorable given Denmark is giving them asylum in the first place and wants to use this as a way to offset the costs.

 

If not, wouldn't that also mean the Danish will pay even more?

 

 

That's my line.

 

We can share can't we? ;)

Edited by Gay Tony
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To be honest it's not that deplorable given Denmark is giving them asylum in the first place and wants to use this as a way to offset the costs.

They have a right to asylum. Outside of the legal realm it's transparently a spiteful affair, nothing to do with logistics and numbers.

 

 

 

If not, wouldn't that also mean the Danish will pay even more?

Check your priorities mate.

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IMO with the exception of maybe more intimate or affectionate items, they should be more than happy to give up a few of their belongings to a country that's giving them refuge if that's going to help offset the costs for their own asylum.

 

At this point though, I really don't think more refugees is a good idea. Islamic fundamentalism will become more emboldened as it's share of the population goes up and cultural ideas/norms are passed from generation to generation. Unless something is drastically done to curb these attitudes places taking in these huge amounts of refugees really won't be safe for Women, Jews or even Gay people anymore. It's already happening really.

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IMO with the exception of maybe more intimate or affectionate items, they should be more than happy to give up a few of their belongings to a country that's giving them refuge if that's going to help offset the costs for their own asylum.

This is the Danish state's responsibility.

 

 

 

At this point though, I really don't think more refugees is a good idea. Islamic fundamentalism will become more emboldened as it's share of the population goes up and cultural ideas/norms are passed from generation to generation. Unless something is drastically done to curb these attitudes places taking in these huge amounts of refugees really won't be safe for Women, Jews or even Gay people anymore. It's already happening really.

...

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IMO with the exception of maybe more intimate or affectionate items, they should be more than happy to give up a few of their belongings to a country that's giving them refuge if that's going to help offset the costs for their own asylum.

 

You keep using the words refuge/refugees. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

 

Surely having them fork over whatever valuables they have left will leave them in an even more helpless state, more prone to crime, more prone to cause troubles since they will have pretty much no resources to start over, no? And make integration even harder.

 

At this point though, I really don't think more refugees is a good idea. Islamic fundamentalism will become more emboldened as it's share of the population goes up and cultural ideas/norms are passed from generation to generation. Unless something is drastically done to curb these attitudes places taking in these huge amounts of refugees really won't be safe for Women, Jews or even Gay people anymore. It's already happening really.

 

Let's see. Germany had, prior to the immigrant wave, around 5% of its populations declare themselves as Muslims. That's a grand total of 4 million individuals, give or take. Say a million refugees have been added to the tally (it hasn't), an increase of 25% over the Muslim population, which is quite large, but less than a 2% increase over the overall population.

 

There has been several generations of Muslims, millions of them, now in Germany, very well integrated for the major part, or you'd be hearing about attacks and violence everyday on the news. I question on what basis are you saying that these few extra refugees will cause the complete decline of German culture, since they only add to whatever has existed there already.

These attitudes that have happened have been caused by an incredibly minor percentage of the immigrants. Are you going to judge the whole of them over a handful of criminals? Criminals exist in any nationality and religion.

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You keep using the words refuge/refugees. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

 

Surely having them fork over whatever valuables they have left will leave them in an even more helpless state, more prone to crime, more prone to cause troubles since they will have pretty much no resources to start over, no? And make integration even harder.

 

Ok.

 

Let's see. Germany had, prior to the immigrant wave, around 5% of its populations declare themselves as Muslims. That's a grand total of 4 million individuals, give or take. Say a million refugees have been added to the tally (it hasn't), an increase of 25% over the Muslim population, which is quite large, but less than a 2% increase over the overall population.

 

There has been several generations of Muslims, millions of them, now in Germany, very well integrated for the major part, or you'd be hearing about attacks and violence everyday on the news. I question on what basis are you saying that these few extra refugees will cause the complete decline of German culture, since they only add to whatever has existed there already.

These attitudes that have happened have been caused by an incredibly minor percentage of the immigrants. Are you going to judge the whole of them over a handful of criminals? Criminals exist in any nationality and religion.

 

There comes to a point where too many are just too many, and there will be issues with the homegrown psychology of these incoming populations even if it is just a minority of them causing major problems. And there's this carefree attitude that there are zero risks in taking in any amount of these refugees. Quite frankly it's frustrating seeing the hypocrisy of "cultural relativism" where women, gays, etc. are complete damsels in the West and yet when actual misogynistic and homophobic attitudes are flowing through these incoming populations they should just deal with it or w/e which is the general attitude now we've seen among some left-wingers.

 

And it's written off as "Well, the West is also very misogynist!" and pointing out how we f*ck up. Which is true but victim blaming and violence against women done by Muslims and the Middle-East in general are a tad more extreme.

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Have you been ignoring recent events and the past 3 pages of this topic?? Do you know anything about restrictions and the general plight of women in the Middle-East?

Edited by Gay Tony
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There comes to a point where too many are just too many, and there will be issues with the homegrown psychology of these incoming populations even if it is just a minority of them causing major problems.

 

So, how many are too many? What's the percentage of the population that must be kept "pure" so that it's civilization doesn't descend into chaos?

The way to address this "homegrown psychology" is to properly integrate them into the society. Barring, banning, stopping, criminalizing all refugees won't do any good. Criminals must be treated as the criminals they are, regardless of their current migration status.

And there's this carefree attitude that there are zero risks in taking in any amount of these refugees.

 

There's this "carefree attitude" that there are zero risks because, overall, there are zero risks. You'll have criminals coming in with the refugees? Probably. They'll be largely a minority, though, and with proper integration and support, they could be found and dealt with before it becomes a problem. Same way you deal with domestic criminals, you know. 4 years ago, there were 7.5k rapes reported in Germany. Surely immigrants/refugees can't be responsible for all of them.

 

And you'll have far more risks by creating a division between the groups. By furthering the idea that refugees aren't welcome, that they come from a dirty culture that lacks civilization, you'll only increase the risks of domestic terror.

 

Or should you make every single refugee responsible for the acts of a small few? If so, let's blame all Germans for Hitler, let's blame all Americans for Bush/Obama, let's blame all Russians for Stalin. It's stupid.

 

 

Quite frankly it's frustrating seeing the hypocrisy of "cultural relativism" where women, gays, etc. are complete damsels in the West and yet when actual misogynistic and homophobic attitudes are flowing through these incoming populations they should just deal with it or w/e which is the general attitude now we've seen among some left-wingers.

 

And it's written off as "Well, the West is also very misogynist!" and pointing out how we f*ck up. Which is true but victim blaming and violence against women done by Muslims and the Middle-East in general are a tad more extreme.

 

The same could be said among right-wingers whose general attitude is "refugees are scum, keep them out of our culture or they will ruin our country with their evil traditions" or "Britain is for ethnic Bretons, Germany should be for ethnic Germans" or "my oktoberfest will be replaced by halalfest".

 

None of the facts point to refugees/immigrants increasing crime overall in a nation or killing a country's culture. At least not when integration is done properly.

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And there's this carefree attitude that there are zero risks in taking in any amount of these refugees.

 

There's this "carefree attitude" that there are zero risks because, overall, there are zero risks.

 

This is a ridiculous statement. I know you tried to qualify it afterwards and explain it a bit more, but it's still ridiculous to say that. There are enormous risks, both in the short term and long term. It's all fine and dandy saying "with proper integration things will be fine" but integration is an incredibly hard thing to achieve even in ideal circumstances, never mind with 1 million people, who come from a very very different culture with a lot of attitudes that are irreconcilable with European ones. Integration is simply not going to happen here. There are going to be a lot of issues going forward for Germany with these people.

Edited by GTA_stu
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I better don't want to know how many IS sympathizers we are housing.

 

It is remarkable how many flags in the wind change their direction now in Germany. The news pages are still overloaded with articles about Cologne as if it was a terror event like in Paris. But actually it is a form of terror for me anyway.

 

According to a poll released by Welt.de today 83% of the Germans want stricter asylum laws. The politicans feel like they are driven by the anger of the people now. And that is a good thing, because now we maybe get asylum politics that are closer to reality.

Edited by Stephan90
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Isn't Die Welt a conservative paper?

 

It is supposed to be "conservative" but not from my personal understanding (just as the CDU of Merkel isn't conservative anymore, but you can debate about that). Die Welt is from the same publisher as "Bild Zeitung" (the biggest rubbish tabloid there is) Axel Springer SE which is owned to around 50% by Friede Springer through direct and indirect share. She is a friend of Merkel. I'll just leave it at that.

 

779x467.jpg

Edited by Stephan90
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@black_MiD You don't have to agree with modern feminism to feel pissed off about what happened in the attacks in Germany. It's like saying "You're not a Black Lives Matter supporter so you have no right to feel outraged at the Charleston shooting."

Are you equally outraged about the rapes and sexual assaults that take place during Oktoberfest every year, or?

 

You're comparing apples with oranges.

Read as: comparing white guys with brown guys

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I'll remain skeptical to the numbers.

 

the 83% figure is from the forsa Institute for Social Research and Statistical Analysis, which is maybe the most well known of its kind in Germany.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forsa_Institute

 

the results were only published in a Welt article today.

 

http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article150978634/83-Prozent-der-Deutschen-fuer-schaerfere-Asylgesetze.html

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There are also massive risks to letting the far-right goose step about the place with impunity. Europe should adopt Australia's policy, which is to chase them down the street and make them eat dirt.

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@black_MiD You don't have to agree with modern feminism to feel pissed off about what happened in the attacks in Germany. It's like saying "You're not a Black Lives Matter supporter so you have no right to feel outraged at the Charleston shooting."

Are you equally outraged about the rapes and sexual assaults that take place during Oktoberfest every year, or?

 

You're comparing apples with oranges.

Read as: comparing white guys with brown guys

 

 

Must have missed all those German guys at Oktoberfest forming gangs and taking over areas, sexually assaulting hundreds of women in one night in an organised fashion, and the authorities then covering it up. The thing with the new year attacks is they're a sympton of the attitudes and morals of the migrants and their culture. They're representative of them. The same isn't true of sex assaults at Oktoberfest being representative of Germans and their attitudes.

 

People like you pretend it's all about skin colour for people like myself, because you refuse to acknowledge the real issues that exist with the migrants and the cultures they come from. Funny, because literally the only reason you won't acknowledge those problems, is because they're brown. If they weren't, you wouldn't be defending them.

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And there's this carefree attitude that there are zero risks in taking in any amount of these refugees.

 

There's this "carefree attitude" that there are zero risks because, overall, there are zero risks.

 

This is a ridiculous statement. I know you tried to qualify it afterwards and explain it a bit more, but it's still ridiculous to say that. There are enormous risks, both in the short term and long term. It's all fine and dandy saying "with proper integration things will be fine" but integration is an incredibly hard thing to achieve even in ideal circumstances, never mind with 1 million people, who come from a very very different culture with a lot of attitudes that are irreconcilable with European ones. Integration is simply not going to happen here. There are going to be a lot of issues going forward for Germany with these people.

 

 

Is it? You integrated quite nicely in Britain even though you came from the Netherlands, which is a country with a pretty different culture and history when compared to England.

 

I jest, I jest.

 

But to say they can't integrate is pretty shortsighted in face of the millions of immigrants already settled in European countries for generations. There will be problematic cases of course, as there are bad people in every religion and of every nationality. But the majority will integrate just fine, if proper policies are in place. You can't deny that. Otherwise all countries with immigrants that are from different cultures would be facing massive crisis every year, and they aren't.

 

People have been screaming doom regarding immigrants/refugees who come from vastly different cultures since the first immigrant arrived at a village. And yet where's the results of that? Where are the nations that got destroyed because foreign people with foreign culture destroyed it?

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Funny, because literally the only reason you won't acknowledge those problems, is because they're brown. If they weren't, you wouldn't be defending them.

Who is not acknowledging problems? Society can have a conversation about problems from immigrant groups, but that conversation can't include the far-right because it is made up of malicious racists. We shouldn't be listening to right-wing opinions on sexual violence at all, other issues be damned.

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A bavarian county commissioner who threatened our government in October last year wants to send a bus load with refugees to the federal chancellery in Berlin today. He even wants to drive the bus. (the refugees are not forced). Great that's how it's done

 

The former head of our constitutional court calls Merkel's solo action an "act of self empowerment" (sounds familiar, Hitler anyone?!) and that we have a "self aggrandising chancelor democracy". He and other constituionalists say that she breaks the constitution and is obliged to close the border. She should face a trial for breaking the constitution.

Edited by Stephan90
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@black_MiD You don't have to agree with modern feminism to feel pissed off about what happened in the attacks in Germany. It's like saying "You're not a Black Lives Matter supporter so you have no right to feel outraged at the Charleston shooting."

Are you equally outraged about the rapes and sexual assaults that take place during Oktoberfest every year, or?

 

You're comparing apples with oranges.

Read as: comparing white guys with brown guys

 

 

Must have missed all those German guys at Oktoberfest forming gangs and taking over areas, sexually assaulting hundreds of women in one night in an organised fashion, and the authorities then covering it up. The thing with the new year attacks is they're a sympton of the attitudes and morals of the migrants and their culture. They're representative of them. defending them.

 

 

 

 

(sounds familiar, Hitler anyone?!)

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LOL thousands of sexual assaults regularly perpetrated by Westerners? Quit strawmanning, bro! Sexism and the dudebro culture don't real.

 

Sexual assaults by foreigners? Segregate them all! For... uhm... safety. Yeah.

 

Literally the only difference is the background of the attackers. I'm sure it has nothing to do with racism at all, though. Remember that bearded fellow who famously defined the notion of a "hypocrite"? Jesus Christ, I think his name was.

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Stuff

 

I genuinely don't understand your point. If there is one.

 

Why did you add "defending them" to that quote of mine? I guess you're comparing me to Hitler with Stephan's quote, although I don't get why. I mean saying their culture is incredibly f*cked up and sexist isn't even controversial, because it plainly is.

 

@Black_MiD The recent events are not comparable to the regular sexual assaults that will happen in a country. In the same way that the 130 people killed in Paris was a significant event and isn't ignored just because "lots of murders happen in France anyways". I'm not saying the Paris attacks and these sexual assaults are comparable, just using it to show the principle I'm talking about. If you seriously think the only difference is their background/skin colour then you must be wearing some very strange glasses, because there is clearly more at play here.

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They're sexual assaults and should be treated like all sexual assaults. All rape cultures should be combated at all times, by force if necessary, not just when it's politically convenient to do so. That's what left-wingers propose and have always proposed. I also struggle to see the "they should just deal with it!" attitude mentioned above. If anything, the only people stating that are those who are staunch anti-feminists and dudebro douchebags every other time of the year but are now fighters against foreigners chauvinism. The glib dismissal of the issue of rape in general is evidence of this ("yeah, there are also rapes in the West, but..."). Being against sexism and rape culture means adopting it as a cause at all times, not just when it suits the right-wing agenda to do so. Using these women's suffering as a political tool is arguably even more disgusting than just being okay with rape happening in general, which many seem to be.

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They're sexual assaults and should be treated like all sexual assaults.

 

Even though these sexual assaults stand out and are particular? Large groups of men taking over an area and molesting women at will in an organised fashion isn't something normal. Why the f*ck would you treat it like regular sexual assaults? If you treat these like any other sexual assault then you're not addressing the particular issues that are specific to these cases, and you won't prevent it from happening in the future.

 

"All rape cultures should be combated at all times, by force if necessary"

 

K

 

"not just when it's politically convenient to do so.

 

..."

 

So you're saying pretty much we shouldn't single out the migrants for being rapey and molestey and having a rape culture, when we have one ourselves? And that we're racist hypocrits? Except we really don't, and there is no hypocrisy. We don't live in a rape culture, the only people that think we do are a fanatical fringe. If you did a poll and asked everyone in Germany/France/USA/UK etc if they thought we lived in a "rape culture" the vast majority would say no. There is an absolute chasm between our culture and the migrant's cultures when it comes to treatment of women and attitudes towards women.

 

The reason people don't get outraged about the level of sexual assaults and rapes normally, is because they don't think the levels are high enough to get outraged about and because they don't think that society/our culture enables or in any way accepts it. It's that simple. When a culture comes along that does enable it and suddenly the levels are becoming unacceptable then people will get outraged and pissed off. Which is what we see happening now. You know why it's politically convenient to do something now? Not because "this time it's brown people" but because there actually is a danger, and a rape culture now. There wasn't before, so there wasn't this public outcry or protestation.

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A bavarian county commissioner who threatened our government in October last year wants to send a bus load with refugees to the federal chancellery in Berlin today. He even wants to drive the bus. (the refugees are not forced). Great that's how it's done

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3399260/Angry-Bavarian-politician-sends-bus-refugees-Merkel.html

 

a true patriot

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Stu you're called a bigot because you've correctly connected the intersection of multiculturalism with cultural and political rot. Our statist friends here would love to see the collapse of the West. They want to see liberty replaced with despotism. If the jihadis help that to come about it, so be it.

 

We all see the facts, hell its being covered up in certain places. Your politicians value foreigners over citizens. Facebook is working with the German government to police speech that isn't approved. What does that look like to you?

 

And so we're at this point where the truth is hate speech. Patriots are bigots, sexist, or whatever derogatory term that is in fashion that day. Facts are trumped by feelings. Because that's all that's left in the tank.

 

It can sure be lonely fighting for what's right, but them's the breaks at the moment.

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If you treat these like any other sexual assault then you're not addressing the particular issues that are specific to these cases, and you won't prevent it from happening in the future.

There isn't anything specific to these. They're sexual assaults like any others. The fact that they may be motivated by a more extreme version of sexism or fundamentalism doesn't single them out. What prevents them from happening in the future, or rape happening in general, is fighting rape and sexual assault, not deporting immigrants. I don't even know what's so hard to understand about this. What's specific to these cases is pretty evident... and let's face it, it's not the actual crime, is it? If it were, this type of crime would be facing a lot more opposition at all times.

 

"All rape cultures should be combated at all times, by force if necessary"

 

 

K

 

"not just when it's politically convenient to do so.

 

..."

Sorry, but if you don't agree with that, it gets hard to buy the whole genuine concern line.

 

So you're saying pretty much we shouldn't single out the migrants for being rapey and molestey and having a rape culture, when we have one ourselves? And that we're racist hypocrits?

Yes. First of all, "migrants" aren't a monolith, and it was a minority of them that did this. One American as well. Saying "migrants" are rapey and molestey just makes my point. You don't care that we are rapey and molestey. Lumping all immigrants into the same category is also a pretty good way to undermine your own point.

 

Except we really don't, and there is no hypocrisy.

K:

 

Well, yeah, there's a problem with rape culture, but it's hardly with Islam itself. 85 000 women are raped in England and Wales alone each year, almost half a million are sexually assaulted; 1 in 5 women—aged 16 to 59—is reported as having been a victim of sexual violence. There's definitely a very real problem here and it's not Islam

 

 

Gee, I'm glad our own problems with rape don't matter, though. Long live glorious Europe, amirite?

 

.If you did a poll and asked everyone in Germany/France/USA/UK etc if they thought we lived in a "rape culture" the vast majority would say no. There is an absolute chasm between our culture and the migrant's cultures when it comes to treatment of women and attitudes towards women.

Considering empirical data proves them wrong, I don't particularly give a sh*t what they think. Ask the rape victims what they think. Also funny considering your dodging MTD's earlier question about Oktoberfest.

 

There is an absolute chasm between our culture and the migrant's cultures when it comes to treatment of women and attitudes towards women.

 

 

"migrants" aren't a monolith, and it was a minority of them that did this. One American as well. Saying "migrants" are rapey and molestey just makes my point. You don't care that we are rapey and molestey. Lumping all immigrants into the same category is also a pretty good way to undermine your own point.

 

The reason people don't get outraged about the level of sexual assaults and rapes normally, is because they don't think the levels are high enough to get outraged about

Even though the numbers are absolutely outrageous anyhow? Yeah. The reason they don't get outraged is pretty clear and it has nothing to do with the actual crime. If it did, they'd be concerned about it when it happens (in outrageous amounts) within our own culture.

 

You know why it's politically convenient to do something now? Not because "this time it's brown people" but because there actually is a danger, and a rape culture now. There wasn't before, so there wasn't this public outcry or protestation.

No, it's convenient because it panders to nationalists and patriotic jackoffs, not because they're genuinely concerned about rape as an issue or bodily integrity, but because it's now okay to moan about spooky Africans and Asians while still appearing to have a rational point. And lol at "acceptable amounts" of rape. "Sorry, sir, you can only rape two people today; 3 is an outrageous amount!".

 

@Spaghetti

LOL at "statist". Do you even know what that word means?

 

"They want to see liberty replaced with despotism"

Says the right-"libertarian" who thinks trickle-down economics is a serious theory and longs for a future of economic slavery truly free™ markets.

Edited by Black_MiD
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