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GTA_stu

The Migration Crisis

Recommended Posts

Otter

Let's be perfectly transparent here, too; Merkel was speaking specifically about Germany's approach to the issue, and the direct line was 'this approach has failed, utterly failed'.

 

So let's not count the country who just took on a f*ckton of refugees as belonging to this hypothetical anti-immigration club. In fact, immigration and multiculturalism are entwined but entirely separate issues.

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sivispacem

2. The happiness levels of those countries has far more to do with the economic development, low levels of corruption and inequality, and their general attitudes and culture, than having immigrant populations.

The funny thing is, economic and political tension often manifests itself as sectarianism and societal strife. So the lack of economic and political tension is actually a cause of the lack of social strife.

 

Others have already responded to your examples, but the fact some segments of the population are suckered in by the arguments that multiculturalism is harmful or thst immigrant populations are going to destroy domestic culture does not make these arguments valid. Any tension derived of fear of these would no more actually be attributable to immigration than tension with bespectacled men because of a rumour saying all glasses wearers are paedophiles.

 

Interesting side note- most areas in the UK which show increased support for anti-immigration policies don't actually correlate with areas of significant migration. There's no actual, direct causal link between immigration to a certain geographical region and increases in anti-immigration sentiment there, which suggests that the majority of these sentiments actually aren't driven by experience of immigration but from perceptions not based in experience or evidence.

 

1. I'm defining those terms by their definitions. The proof of multicultural societies being less cohesive and united, lies in their segregated nature.

Quite aside from your circular logic with the definition, multicultural societies are not demonstrably or empirically less "cohesive" or "united" than unicultural ones. You can continue to insist they are until you're blue in the face, but given that "cohesion" is a pretty subjective concept which depends on how you define society and its structure and "unity" in this context is also highly open to interpretation, it's still nothing more than an opinion.

 

3. Yes it is. When you have different groups in a society who have vastly different identities, morals, social and cultural norms, you're going to get conflict.

And yet, in the developed world, usually you don't. Not on any grand societal scale anyway. You've got a few extremists at either end of the spectrum moping about something or another, but the amount of actual, tangible conflict between minorities and domestic citizens in most developed European countries borders on the nonexistent. The overwhelming majority of people go through every single day of their lives without experiencing it in any tangible way, and what tension does exist is every bit a product of ignorance on the part of domestic citizens who think their personal opinions on how the country should be are more important than the rights of other citizens as it is a failure for immigrants to assimilate into and engage with society. I'd argue, moreso.

 

The segregation in cities, and assimilation issues are a clear indicator that

Current policies aren't working everywhere and more needs to be done to promote cohesion. But, and I hate to labour the point, this isn't representative of the majority of immigrants in the majority of developed countries. I don't know about you but I think policy based solely in the lowest common denominators which ignores most citizens is a bit stupid.

 

Areas with a native ethnic population almost always elect native ethnic politicians and officials

Except for our propensity to vote for Scottish politicians, and all those politicians who aren't ethnic Britons but won by large majorities in very white constituencies. Again, you say "who assimilate well" like it's something unusual when actually the overwhelming majority of immigrants that do...

 

You have different groups who choose to live apart

Yes, they're often lower-class, poorly educated white Britons.

 

Having immigrants, who typically come from poorer less developed societies

Do they? I'm on my mobile so it's hard to check for figures, but last time I checked EU migration took up a large proportion of all migration to the UK and labour migration, which is a fairly substantial component of it, typically brings in people of relatively high socioeconomic status in their native countries. The same is true of education migration which is a huge part of the statistics.

 

these immigrants tend to be very conservative in nature.

Evidence?

 

"Shared knowledge and experience, and wider social coverage" err what?

Other, multicultural, perspectives are very useful in analytical disciplines. Different people from different cultural backgrounds tend to have different logical processes and think in slightly different ways and harnessing that can be pretty useful. The same is true in many jobs, and arguably in wider society too; as is the idea of ensuring inclusivity via involving minority groups. Part of the issue we have in the UK is thay we've failed to encourage migrants to involve themselves socially and politically, and many of these sensationalist "some nationality complains about some thing" Daily Wail wankfests are simply cases of poor decision-making that has failed to actually acknowledge the views of stakeholders.

 

You don't need multiculturalism to improve international cooperation either, or create influence.

You don't need it, but you can't be do naïve as to think it doesn't help?
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feckyerlife

even though its daily mail, this was posted 7 months ago...

 

ISIS threatens to send 500,000 migrants to Europe as a 'psychological weapon' in chilling echo of Gaddafi's prophecy that the Mediterranean 'will become a sea of chaos'

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Eutyphro

@Otter: What I mean to say is that scapegoating immigrants is convenient. Apart from that, consider that how many refugees Germany has to accept is related to European law. Immigration in general, is largely regulated by European law, which is a big issue for xenophobic European parties, hence this is one reason why many of them are anti-EU. Merkel does not have as significant a choice as you might think.

 

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Eutyphro

Interesting clip (though 3 months old, supposedly there are at least 100.000 extra Syrian refugees to the EU now):

Edited by Eutyphro
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Dingdongs

 

Multicultural influences typically lead to more inclusive, liberal and free societies- shared knowledge and experiences, wider social coverage and the like are clear, empirically demonstrable benefits of multiculturalism in other environments such as the workplace. Improving cultural awareness has knock-of benefits for inter-state relations, strengthens international cooperation and creates economic and political influence abroad.

Do you have anything to back this up? I don't know if that's necessarily true; this idea that multicultural societies are this wonderful thing that are just great for everybody. I think you're really extrapolating the benefits far beyond what is demonstrable... international cooperation and creating influence abroad? I don't really think so.

 

I think both ideas are wrong. I think this idea of unrestricted immigration wherein we allow people to come to a country and essentially create enclaves of their old country and old ways is flat out ridiculous and unhealthy for both the immigrants and for the country they are going to. Furthermore, I think the idea of telling people when they immigrate they either act like a white person or get the ol' boot is also ridiculous. At the risk of sounding like the American cultural ambassador, I really do think we have a great system here wherein people immigrate, and then "mix" with American culture. Chinese people in Chinatown are really not much like Chinese people in Hunan Province... people in Little Italy are not the same as Italians. They've immigrated and they've brought with them elements of their own culture, and then worked to adopt the culture of the United States and "mix" it with their own. At the same time, we see that mix of culture spread to the native population. White American joe sixpacks celebrate Cinco de Mayo... black guys hang out in Chinatown and eat at the restaurants and enjoy the food. That's what immigration should be, not this "all or nothing" stuff that Europeans are debating right now.

Edited by Irviding
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Otter

So your argument is that multiculturalism works - the American approach to it, anyhow. What we're reading as the 'European' approach is a very biased sliver view, so I'm not sure what differs so greatly when it comes to America. The 'enclaves' we're told about are no different than little Havana or Hell's Kitchen or Little Armenia or Harlem or Koreatown.

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Dingdongs

So your argument is that multiculturalism works - the American approach to it, anyhow. What we're reading as the 'European' approach is a very biased sliver view, so I'm not sure what differs so greatly when it comes to America. The 'enclaves' we're told about are no different than little Havana or Hell's Kitchen or Little Armenia or Harlem or Koreatown.

The difference is those enclaves don't become miniature colonies wherein the denizens refuse to assimilate into the wider society.

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Svip

So your argument is that multiculturalism works - the American approach to it, anyhow. What we're reading as the 'European' approach is a very biased sliver view, so I'm not sure what differs so greatly when it comes to America.

 

That European countries have for the largest part of their existence have remained large homogeneous, at least in the eyes of their inhabitants. When Europe was high on the spirit of nationalism in the 19th century, America (and here I am including other American countries in addition to the USA) was a pot of nationalities, even if they largely sought to hang out with their fellow countrymen from Europe for the most part.

 

This idea of nationalism has stayed in Europe till this day, despite the past half century of large influx of people from outside Europe, as well as within Europe.

 

Historical aside: Migration to and within Europe is hardly a new thing, it's been going on well... since humans came to Europe, but specifics like the Roman Empire, the Migration Period (Dark Ages) and the Renaissance comes to mind. It just wouldn't be until the 19th century that nationalism suddenly became a big thing, and there and then we decided what constituted a national idea, regardless of the past (mostly because most were ignorant of it).

 

This vision could be maintained till this day, because a lot of Europeans not only believed that nationalism was the right thing, but also were certain they saw it all around them. When in Germany, they only saw Germans, when in France, they only saw Frenchmen, and so forth. Of course, evidence now shows it wasn't as clear cut as that. Just think of all the Jews and half-Jews that appeared in Nazi propaganda without their propaganda machine realising they were Jewish.

 

Like Americans wanting to return to the 1950s and a Leave it to Beaver world, a lot of Europeans are painting a nostalgic and fantastic picture of the past. But Americans are more used to a huge variety of nationalities, races and cultures, all in the same neighbourhood. At least more used to and familiar (and accepting of) than Europeans are.

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Otter

 

So your argument is that multiculturalism works - the American approach to it, anyhow. What we're reading as the 'European' approach is a very biased sliver view, so I'm not sure what differs so greatly when it comes to America. The 'enclaves' we're told about are no different than little Havana or Hell's Kitchen or Little Armenia or Harlem or Koreatown.

The difference is those enclaves don't become miniature colonies wherein the denizens refuse to assimilate into the wider society.

It's not so much a difference of how things are rather than, I would argue, a difference of perspective.

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sivispacem

The difference is those enclaves don't become miniature colonies wherein the denizens refuse to assimilate into the wider society.

I've simply never know understood why Americans seem to think this is at all prevalent in Western Europe when it really isn't. The Chinatown remark confuses me the most, because the mere existence of areas of major cities which are effectively enclaves for particular ethnic groups seems to be at least in part exactly what you're decrying.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that most migrants into Western Europe assimilate to a significant degree into society and yet retain elements of their cultural heritage combined with that of their country of residence. The idea that this "melting pot" approach is somehow restricted to the US is simply false; though it's not something that's explicitly strived for through Western European government policy it is the reality of the vast majority of immigration into Europe.

 

The strangest bit of the whole response is the implication that black people or other non-Asian ethnic minorities eating at Chinese restaurants is somehow unusual in Europe. It's really, really not.

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Dingdongs

 

The difference is those enclaves don't become miniature colonies wherein the denizens refuse to assimilate into the wider society.

I've simply never know understood why Americans seem to think this is at all prevalent in Western Europe when it really isn't. The Chinatown remark confuses me the most, because the mere existence of areas of major cities which are effectively enclaves for particular ethnic groups seems to be at least in part exactly what you're decrying.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that most migrants into Western Europe assimilate to a significant degree into society and yet retain elements of their cultural heritage combined with that of their country of residence. The idea that this "melting pot" approach is somehow restricted to the US is simply false; though it's not something that's explicitly strived for through Western European government policy it is the reality of the vast majority of immigration into Europe.

 

The strangest bit of the whole response is the implication that black people or other non-Asian ethnic minorities eating at Chinese restaurants is somehow unusual in Europe. It's really, really not.

On my cell so this will be brief but are you going to argue that everybody in Europe who complain that recent immigrants over the past 5-10 years have not assimilated well are all making it up? I tend to think that the truth lies in between the two extremes, and I think based on what I've read and filtered through the one side that says immigrants are all great and happy and nobody cares and the other that says they're a menace, that there is a conclusion to be made that there are some issues of strife within the immigrant community and between the native population. That's due to not only the immigrant's culture conflicting sharply with the values of the native culture and thus not wanting to assimilate, but also due to the native population being hostile and unwelcoming to the immigrant community in Europe that has come in and started this recent discord. Both sides need to improve here. I feel that your complete dismissal of Stu's and others claims is just as dishonest to the situation as their claims that immigrants all cause strife and cannot ever be welcomed.

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sivispacem

You seem to be under the illusion that Ii think it's all sunshine and rainbows. I don't; there are definitely social tensions, there are examples of immigrants failing to engage with society. But they are exceptions, rather than the norm.

 

I'm not going to argue that every European who complains that immigrants fail to assimilate is making it up. For whatever reason- be it confirmation bias, confusing anecdote with evidence, their own skewed perception, whatever- some people (let's not forget we're only talking a small sub-set of society here) choose, either willingly or unwillingly, to massively exaggerate the issue.

 

I have no idea where on earth you've got the idea that I think all immigrants assimilate well from. In fact I really struggle to see how you've composed that response based on any of the content if my initial reply you've quoted, unless you just didn't actually read it?

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Otter

Not making it up, but the U.S. has the same contingent of whingers who are planning to build a friggin' wall. Again, we're hearing from a lot of extremes.

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Dingdongs

You seem to be under the illusion that Ii think it's all sunshine and rainbows. I don't; there are definitely social tensions, there are examples of immigrants failing to engage with society. But they are exceptions, rather than the norm.

 

I'm not going to argue that every European who complains that immigrants fail to assimilate is making it up. For whatever reason- be it confirmation bias, confusing anecdote with evidence, their own skewed perception, whatever- some people (let's not forget we're only talking a small sub-set of society here) choose, either willingly or unwillingly, to massively exaggerate the issue.

 

I have no idea where on earth you've got the idea that I think all immigrants assimilate well from. In fact I really struggle to see how you've composed that response based on any of the content if my initial reply you've quoted, unless you just didn't actually read it?

I didn´t mean to imply that you said there is never a problem with immigration, but rather that you are constantly dismissive of anybody who says there are potential issues with unrestricted immigration, and go to great lengths to argue that immigration is always beneficial. I think immigration is very beneficial overall but it comes with drawbacks like anything else. The idea that multicultural societies are automatically better off is also something I don't see any proof behind. It's all about who is looking in.

 

Why is that you see scores of people in your own country and others saying that immigrants that have arrived over the past decade do not assimilate well? Instead of trying to poke holes in why they think that by claiming they have confirmation bias or are confusing anecdotes with evidence, why not see if it's actually true, and then try to address the issue accordingly? You can't simply say "everyone is dumb" when you have well over half of Britons depending on the poll saying they have issues with immigration.

Edited by Irviding

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sivispacem

Why is that you see scores of people in your own country and others saying that immigrants that have arrived over the past decade do not assimilate well?

I would imagine for similar reasons that you see scores of Americans demanding that politicians wall off the border with Mexico. Part of it is media-driven; the appeal of certain right-wing papers to a core readership promotes them having a good kick at the idea of multiculturalism. It's a nice little scapegoat for other social problems- the economic hardships of austerity, most notably- and a good substitute for hand-wringing about crime, disorder and other issues that aren't really very prevalent any more. You of all people should know that the fact large numbers of people believe something does not make it true.

 

 

Instead of trying to poke holes in why they think that by claiming they have confirmation bias or are confusing anecdotes with evidence, why not see if it's actually true

Who's to say I haven't? Again, I feel I must repeat myself and point out that I'm not claiming that there are no instances of immigrants failing to assimilate or acclimatise, or even that issues don't exist which need to be resolved. I'm simply stating that the notion this is the norm with mass migration is false.

 

The largest foreign-born immigrant minority groups in the UK (in order) are: Indian, Polish, Pakistani, Irish, German, Bangladeshi, American and South African. Together these eight nations account for slightly less than half of all foreign-born citizens or residents of the UK. Are there any groups amongst this who might be considered to be particularly prone to issues integrating or acclimatising to British culture? Possibly Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, though given their communities in the UK are a) large and b) already well integrated thanks to the legacy of both nations as colonial powers it's probably not that prevalent.

 

The thing is, people who make the scatter-shot, generalist argument that foreigners fail to integrate seldom actually discuss the demographics of this supposed phenomenon. I've never heard a single proponent of it argue that a single racial or ethnic background has a particular issue in a particular area because of X piece of evidence; you simply see them assert that it's true based on nothing apparent. It's not hard to look at the demographics of different parts of the UK and see where migrants of particular ethnicity and nationality settle. Yes, typically they cluster together but that's not evidence of a failure to integrate because exactly the same happens in the US which is supposed to be an example of cultural harmony in comparison. What else is there? I'm genuinely not sure. I'd really welcome someone who argues this is a thing coming and providing a proper, reasoned explanation, backed up with actual evidence that doesn't just constitute cherry-picked anecdotes, to support the idea that large numbers of foreign migrants simply aren't integrating.

 

 

You can't simply say "everyone is dumb" when you have well over half of Britons depending on the poll saying they have issues with immigration.

...you can. Weight of popular opinion may determine perceptions of an issue but it doesn't imply factual correctness. Anyway, what polls? Conducted by whom? As I imagine you're aware, you can get a poll to say pretty much whatever you want by loading the question and picking the target audience.

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Eram

Germany just suspended the Schengen Agreement and started boarder controlling Austria's boarder.

 

Munchen officials (the city took some 12k refugees in the last 24hrs) stated that there's no more availability for sheltering.

 

Next Tuesday Hungary will finish their wall/fence.

The military already replaced the police on Servia's boarder.

 

Winter is coming but it's getting hotter...

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Der_Don

The Czech Republic also shut down its borders shortly after Germany's annoucement. I wonder what Austria makes of all this.

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Stephan90

Didn't stupid Merkel say we will just overlook the Dublin agreement and take everyone who comes from Syria and that it could be up to 800,000 people this year and that we could cope with it?! And now suddenly from one day to another we reintroduce border controls, because it is "necessary for safety reasons": And the last months it wasn't necessary?! God, our government is just a bunch of incompetent losers. And stupid Merkel is the biggest embarrassment.

Edited by Stephan90
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Eutyphro

The 800.000 number though, is the number of applicants they expect in 2015 total, many of which are from the Balkans, most of which get sent back. 800.000 as an amount for actual refugees that are going to reach Germany and will be applicable for asylum in 2015 would be a bizarre overestimation.

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 dice

Germany, Austria, Netherlands, Slovakia, Finland, all preparing to or already intensively policing their borders (after heavily criticizing the Hungarian PM for the same actions). That warming welcome and solidarity managed to last a whole 2 days. By now most of the damage is already done, the East got its picture of an utopian Europe, welcoming refugees left and right, encouraging more to take the trip and eventually stumble on closed doors, or freezing to death on the road in the forthcoming winter months.

 

 

 

The 800.000 number though, is the number of applicants they expect in 2015 total, many of which are from the Balkans

You mean from the Balkan route, not the Balkans itself, right? Edited by dice

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sivispacem

No, he means actual Balkan citizens. Nearly 15,000 applications for asylum in Germany in July came from citizens of Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro and Serbia- approximately 40% of all asylum seekers.

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 dice

Well that was a bit of a long stretch for them, considering there are no major conflicts in their areas, and the countries themselves are on safe lists of most ministries of foreign affairs here. Ukraine is currently considered a more dangerous area to reside

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Dingdongs

 

 

I would imagine for similar reasons that you see scores of Americans demanding that politicians wall off the border with Mexico. Part of it is media-driven; the appeal of certain right-wing papers to a core readership promotes them having a good kick at the idea of multiculturalism. It's a nice little scapegoat for other social problems- the economic hardships of austerity, most notably- and a good substitute for hand-wringing about crime, disorder and other issues that aren't really very prevalent any more. You of all people should know that the fact large numbers of people believe something does not make it true.

I'm not saying that the fact that people think it make it true. And I think I was quite clear about that in my post. What I'm saying is, generally when you have such a significant portion of people complaining about such an issue, there is at least some grain of truth to it. There are arguments to be made that illegal immigrants take American jobs and that open borders/free trade has hurt domestic business and domestic workers. I think it's bunk for the most part, but again, the issue is there and you can make an argument that it has hurt the so called "native" (lol) Americans that have lost blue collar, unskilled work to illegals who can do it for less. What I'm trying to convey to you is, don't dismiss everyone as a bumbling idiot, everybody has something to contribute to the discussion.


 

 

Who's to say I haven't? Again, I feel I must repeat myself and point out that I'm not claiming that there are no instances of immigrants failing to assimilate or acclimatise, or even that issues don't exist which need to be resolved. I'm simply stating that the notion this is the norm with mass migration is false.

I agree with you here. It isn't the norm, but it exists. Generally, at least in my view, your posts seem to convey the idea that everything is all peaches and applesauce and that migration is always 100% great... evidenced by your trying to justify it by claiming things that you can't really quantify "empirically" with migration/multiculturalism above.

 

 

The largest foreign-born immigrant minority groups in the UK (in order) are: Indian, Polish, Pakistani, Irish, German, Bangladeshi, American and South African. Together these eight nations account for slightly less than half of all foreign-born citizens or residents of the UK. Are there any groups amongst this who might be considered to be particularly prone to issues integrating or acclimatising to British culture? Possibly Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, though given their communities in the UK are a) large and b) already well integrated thanks to the legacy of both nations as colonial powers it's probably not that prevalent.

Probably not that prevalent from a data standpoint maybe, but people on the ground complaining about it shouldn't be totally ignored.

 

The thing is, people who make the scatter-shot, generalist argument that foreigners fail to integrate seldom actually discuss the demographics of this supposed phenomenon. I've never heard a single proponent of it argue that a single racial or ethnic background has a particular issue in a particular area because of X piece of evidence; you simply see them assert that it's true based on nothing apparent. It's not hard to look at the demographics of different parts of the UK and see where migrants of particular ethnicity and nationality settle. Yes, typically they cluster together but that's not evidence of a failure to integrate because exactly the same happens in the US which is supposed to be an example of cultural harmony in comparison. What else is there? I'm genuinely not sure. I'd really welcome someone who argues this is a thing coming and providing a proper, reasoned explanation, backed up with actual evidence that doesn't just constitute cherry-picked anecdotes, to support the idea that large numbers of foreign migrants simply aren't integrating.

I would like to see such evidence too beyond their anecdotal evidence. Again, all I've been trying to point out in these last 2-3 posts is that flat out ignoring peoples' anecdotal experiences does not serve us well in a general discourse.

 

 

...you can. Weight of popular opinion may determine perceptions of an issue but it doesn't imply factual correctness. Anyway, what polls? Conducted by whom? As I imagine you're aware, you can get a poll to say pretty much whatever you want by loading the question and picking the target audience.

I'm just talking the general idea of Euroskepticsm that's widespread throughout Britain. A large driver in those polls is fear/dislike/whatever you want to word it of immigrants.

 

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acmilano

12019939_892542710799997_408416022578081

 

Refugies now going towards Croatia after closing of Hungarian border. Some expected to go through Bosnia and Herzegovina. Austria already closed borders,so a lot of people would stay in Balkan countries during winter,and its not a nice place to stay in open.

 

Edit: Some still trying to cross to Hungary,clashing with the Hungarian police.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/sep/16/first-refugees-head-for-croatia-after-hungarys-border-crackdown-live-updates

Edited by acmilano

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Stephan90

Hungary has the right and the duty according to the official treaties to protect EU borders. There is one entrance to Hungary were people must be registered. But the people don't want that. So they try to break through the fence at another location. Entering Hungary illegally can be punished with three years prison now. Some people threw stones and sticks at Hungarian police and they answered with tear gas and water cannons.

Edited by Stephan90
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Spaghetti Cat

Relatively sure that most German ppl are welcoming even under these strained circumstances, but man, this is a kick in the trousers:

 

 

Dear City council of Munich,

I am writing this letter to bring to your attention something that I
and many Muslims believe is unfair and requires attention. I would like to inform you that the Oktoberfest is an Intolerant and Anti-Islamic event. We tried to ignore the event, but there too many Un-Islamic acts done at the Oktoberfest. Such as alcohol consumption, public nudity etc.

We understand that the Oktoberfest is a yearly German tradition, but we, Muslims, can not tolerate this Un-Islamic event, because it offends us and all Muslims on the earth. We are requesting the immediate cancellation of the upcoming Oktoberfest event.

We also believe that the Oktoberfest might also offend all the Muslim refugees coming from Syria, Iraq,
Afghanistan. The cancellation of the Oktoberfest event will help refugees not to forget their Islamic history. Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Sincerely,

Morad Almuradi

 

https://www.change.org/p/city-of-munich-ban-the-intolerant-and-anti-islamic-event-of-oktoberfest

 

 

Plz tell me this is a troll and isn't real.

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acmilano

I don't think that person on a photograph would ever again be able to cross German border :miranda:

 

Anyway,its probably not true. The name is written wrong,no one would use it like that. Proper would be Morad Al Murad.

Edited by acmilano

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sivispacem

Plz tell me this is a troll and isn't real.

Even if it is real, it's probably been embraced by trolls to such a point that it's no longer relevant.
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Dingdongs

 

Plz tell me this is a troll and isn't real.

Even if it is real, it's probably been embraced by trolls to such a point that it's no longer relevant.

 

It is written in such a stupid way that it leads me to believe it's probably created by somebody opposed to the migrants. Not that the English is bad, but rather the rationale is just flat out laughably ridiculous. If it's genuine from a Muslim migrant he can stay and live under ISIS, they're much more conducive to banning alcohol and public nudity.

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