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GTA_stu

The Migration Crisis

Recommended Posts

Tchuck

 

 

Truth is, the refugees aren't children and young women. They are military aged men.

Care to source that?

 

Well the data is on the same page you linked

http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.html#_ga=1.12561396.1568136279.1441839677

 

Out of the 380k refugees who arrived in Italy and Greece 73% are supposedly male, while 13% are women and 15% children

 

 

Are they all military aged men? I honestly doubt that. Or even that they have some form of military training at all. Which is the point he was arguing; that the "men refugees" are soldiers ready to destroy Europe at the call of the caliphate.

 

Which is utter bollocks.

 

Canadian "Badass", from someone who comes from a country that was founded by immigrants and people seeking opportunities in a new world, you surely are a hypocrite.

All your talk about "country X should be X people only!" is so ridiculously racist and xenophobic that it's a waste of time to argue it. And take your eugenics as well.

 

Luckily, these people don't have to convince you that they are refugees. Their country is in the middle of a bloody and long civil war. They've been attacked by their own government. And then ISIS comes in and starts murdering and enslaving people left and right. Who the f*ck are you to decide they are not refugees?

 

Oh and those "twitter" photos showing "ISIS agents" infiltrated with the refugees have all been debunked. Here on this thread too, if you bothered to look at the previous page.

 

The talk of "Europe will become Islam!" is also beyond retarded, and based on anything except for reality. Europe has a population of 700 million people. For Muslims to become a "majority", it would take centuries. Europe will sooner become agnostic than accept any other major religion.

 

PS: I am not Japanese. I migrated to Japan because it's a country that offers much better conditions of life than my home country. Go ahead and hate me for making the Japanese blood impure with my Brazilian seed.

Edited by Tchuck
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WhitePimp

 

 

Syrians are fleeing a civil war. That's hardly comparable.

Hmm but I can't remember the British running when World War 2 was going on. We stood and fought.

 

Again the UK was attacked by an external force. The British had their government and their military behind them. Syria is in a civil war, where the government and military is against them. Not comparable.

 

I'm sick of these people that are saying that they are completely powerless and weak yet they can cause riots in Australia and Britain.

Often by people who don't particularly like these refugees. But causing riots is again not comparable to fighting off the Luftwaffe. Any idiot can make a riot.

 

Most of the men that are migrating are in great shape and you're telling me that they are completely doomed?

How does being in great shape help against tanks? Or mustard gas? Or heavy firearms in general?

 

Maybe you should consider that Britain, the US and Europe will become an Islamic state very shortly.

Wouldn't that require a majority of Muslims? This refugee crisis still only amounts to 0.2% of the EU's population. Also, how did the US get into this? Are Mexicans Muslims now?

 

It's very likely that a bombing will occur soon in one of the countries. No precautions are being taken.

Didn't bombs happen years ago in London before this crisis? I am pretty sure terrorism in Europe goes way back. Hey, why is it you celebrate Bonfire Night?

 

 

What? Have you been using smack you sod? Look at the images on google and please tell me that that is external force. Many houses, churches and lives were ruined but you justify it as not really a big matter. And how exactly does the Syrian government not have power? Many of the immigrants can join the armed forces or even start a paramilitary. With well over 200,000 immigrating to different countries you believe they have completely no power? So please don't try and bullsh*t me with the "they are purely defenseless". I bet some of them have probably already been in the armed forces if there isn't already national duty over there, not sure. I've tried looking for a photo which shows four Syrian refugees that are bodybuilders, but no they must be completely helpless. There was also a bombing in England (I can't remember when but it was recent) which I read about today in a post box in England. Well done people for allowing them into the country :)

 

No, I never said it was the same. If they can attack and start chaos then surely they can defend their own country. How can you even back them up when you know the facts yourself? They are already threatening the use of bombs and some have already happened! But no you said they are completely weak and powerless. They have the strength to kick, punch, use weapons and start fires but they can't defend their own country? Get real mate.

 

Well being in shape contributes greatly. To me a bunch of bodybuilders immigrating and using the excuse that they "desperately need our help" is a load of f*cking bollocks. They can use protein shakes and steroids so how the f*ck are they so weak?

 

Yes it would. I also never said it would happen instantly. Many years from now it will happen. It doesn't take much to work it out. The more immigrants we let in, the more power they have. It's 1 add 1 common stuff.

 

Yeah bombs have happened in the past but I don't think anything has happened until what is going to happen. Attempts to bomb the queen, parliament, our historical buildings etc

 

Wow that was quite tiring trying to explain everything to you word by word. f*cking moronic bellend

 

 

USER WARNED FOR THIS POST

Edited by Otter

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WhitePimp

 

 

 

Truth is, the refugees aren't children and young women. They are military aged men.

Care to source that?

 

Well the data is on the same page you linked

http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.html#_ga=1.12561396.1568136279.1441839677

 

Out of the 380k refugees who arrived in Italy and Greece 73% are supposedly male, while 13% are women and 15% children

 

 

Are they all military aged men? I honestly doubt that. Or even that they have some form of military training at all. Which is the point he was arguing; that the "men refugees" are soldiers ready to destroy Europe at the call of the caliphate.

 

Canadian "Badass", from someone who comes from a country that was founded by immigrants and people seeking opportunities in a new world, you surely are a hypocrite.

All your talk about "country X should be X people only!" is so ridiculously racist and xenophobic that it's a waste of time to argue it. And take your eugenics as well.

 

Luckily, these people don't have to convince you that they are refugees. Their country is in the middle of a bloody and long civil war. They've been attacked by their own government. And then ISIS comes in and starts murdering and enslaving people left and right. Who the f*ck are you to decide they are not refugees?

 

Oh and those "twitter" photos showing "ISIS agents" infiltrated with the refugees have all been debunked. Here on this thread too, if you bothered to look at the previous page.

 

The talk of "Europe will become Islam!" is also beyond retarded, and based on anything except for reality. Europe has a population of 700 million people. For Muslims to become a "majority", it would take centuries. Europe will sooner become agnostic than accept any other major religion.

 

PS: I am not Japanese. I migrated to Japan because it's a country that offers much better conditions of life than my home country. Go ahead and hate me for making the Japanese blood impure with my Brazilian seed.

 

 

Why are you spewing the most sh*t pal? It is very likely that some have military experience. To say almost none to over 200,000 have no military experience is a complete load of bollocks. What about the police officers immigrating? You honestly are completely brainwashed. Living in a little fantasy world where everyone only wants to migrate for the best. Unfortunately the world doesn't world like that so perhaps you should wake up. You're another one that has bought into the media guilt trip. Think about your people and your country first before you give it away to people that you don't know. Ex military men have served their lives for you while they are laying down on the street and you care about these people more? Wow :lol:

 

And you're another one that has to refer to the past about "your country was founded by migrants". Unfortunately a nice little bedtime story about the past can't do a thing about what's currently happening. Referring to many years ago when all of us weren't even born. Yep that's a great point :^: Maybe your solution would be to kick the current Canadians and find out who Canada really belongs to. Hahaha get a grip

 

Who the f*ck are you to say that we have to let these people into our country? We have to take the risks for the benefit of people we don't even know, and yet you take that on as your responsibility and you've only just heard this by the media. I'll tell you who I am. A BORN BRITISH CITIZEN WITH FULL BRITISH HERITAGE AND THIS IS MY COUNTRY. f*cking wankpot that you are.

 

Sorry but I'd rather see this..

 

del.jpg

 

 

Than this in my country..

 

143651469__490262c.jpg

 

 

The police can't allow British parties to peacefully protest yet they allow Muslims to pray on the road (picture below) that's called dominance

 

image.jpg

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Typhus

England is a nation forged over centuries by immigration, and mingling with other cultures. One Englishman has no power over another by virtue of him being white, Christian, or any other such thing.

It's not a "white country", because people of other races exist, live here, contribute, and have done so since the Romans came. So, please, stop using this crisis to peddle your little racist agenda. It's shameful enough that our country is as xenophobic as it is, but I don't see why we need to take every opportunity to humiliate and disgrace ourselves further.

Edited by Typhus
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sivispacem

WhitePimp, I'm going to echo what I said in your warn log here. D&D is supposed to be a section for structured, coherent debate, and personal insults aren't tolerated. If you wish to come into our house, the least you could do is abide by our rules.

 

Now, I get the impression you're young and therefore many of those views you've (rather incoherently) expressed probably aren't ones you've formed of your own volition, instead inheriting from other, older figures close to yourself. So I'm going to dispense with my usual sarcasm and address a few of the comments you've made.

 

 

Hmm but I can't remember the British running when World War 2 was going on. We stood and fought.

As Svip has already pointed out, they simply aren't comparable. The Second World War was an inter-state conflict, the last manifestation of "total war" in British history, and as a nation we weren't ever put into a position where large numbers of foreign aggressors were actually fighting on the ground in our country. If you look at the effects of the German military expansion through Northern and Western Europe, a huge amount of displacement of civilians took place. The majority of citizens of countries invaded by the Wehrmacht didn't actually stay and fight, they either bowed to German military subjugation or fled.

 

 

Muslims in Britain are crying that the Red Cross sign offends them and so does the cross of Jesus and still our pathetic government tends to their needs because of the fear of being called racist.

 

Britain is a Christian place and shouldn't be changed

The first of these simply isn't true. The second may technically be true, but only approximately one percent of the population are active, practicing Christians and Christian influence in contemporary politics and society borders on the nonexistent. Our legal system is derived from Christian history but religion plays little to no active role in it anymore.

 

It's also worth pointing out that the idea of white britons becoming a minority in their "own country" is flawed on two main counts; one, white britons don't actually "own" Britain so the notion of it being "their" country is simply absurd; two, recent trends aren't necessarily applicable over longer terms- you can't simply extrapolate current immigration figures and assume that the same percentage will be coming year in, year out for eternity.

 

Moreover, there's no actual, coherent empirical argument against enabling immigration. There are lots of subjective, emotional ones, usually built on poor understanding of the historical/genealogical structure of the United Kingdom, but I challenge you to find a statistical, measurable justification for closing the borders and halting the flow of immigrants.

 

 

A whole lot of side affects will come with it such as Muslim gangs forming, crimes targeting British people and several terrorist groups will shortly be popping up.

 

No precautions are being taken

The first of these is pure speculation, and coming from an individual with no clear authority on the subject, probably not very good speculation either. The second simply isn't true, and has already been discussed at some length in the thread.

 

 

David Cameron recently took out money from a cancer fund to tend to the new wave of migrants.

Evidence? I hear things like this spouted by anti-immigration individuals all the time, it's amazing how frequently the quieten down once the realise it's simply a rumour they've picked up off some random Facebook page which actually has no basis in reality.

 

 

Many of the immigrants can join the armed forces or even start a paramilitary.

This simply demonstrates your limited understanding of conflict. It's not a video game; in four years of civil war in Syria we've had probably in the region of four hundred thousand people killed- that's about the entire civilian death toll of the 10-year military conflict in Iraq every single year. The Syrian government an Islamic State are well armed- the former by the Russians, Chinese and Iranians and the latter by the Arab states and via capture of Syrian and Iraqi military materiél. Ordinary citizens simply aren't in a place to actually fight unless they're allied with one of these two groups; even the previously-well-supported Free Syrian Army is ragged and ever-shrinking, and al-Qaeda allied militant groups are slowly being absorbed into the wider Islamic State movement.

 

 

There was also a bombing in England

Fun fact about the UK- we have many far more active domestic terrorist groups than we do Islamist ones. Up until very recently arrests for domestic terrorism outstripped those for Islamic extremist related terrorism- Northern Ireland and the Far Right being the two largest components of our domestic scene, but also limited amounts of activity from other extremist groups.

 

 

I'll tell you who I am. A BORN BRITISH CITIZEN WITH FULL BRITISH HERITAGE AND THIS IS MY COUNTRY

Your nationality doesn't make you somehow more authoritative on the subject. Tell me, exactly how much do you know about the genetic make up of the UK that enables you to make the claim you have "full British heritage"? It's also not "your country" any more than it is mine, or that of any other British citizen. The simple fact of your citizenship doesn't make them any more valid or accurate.

 

On the subject of British genetics, I posted a response a few days ago which cited a recent study which confirmed that "native British" is a complete lie; most of us are a homogenous mix of several different sets of genetic ancestry including Anglo-Saxon, Iberian, Danish, Swedish, Belgian, Norwegian and various other pre-Roman tribes who migrated to the UK after the last ice age.

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gooeyhole

Tchuck has got me all wrong, wtf. Military aged men means to me that they are men who are in their twenties. I never once said that these men are all ISIS members. And I'm sorry for saying that Japan is for the Japanese, you do what you like, have mixed race kids if you'd like, I'm not mad or angry about that sorta stuff. Because Japan isn't going to be out bred by one Brazilian. It'd have to be a pretty horny Brazilian, haha.

 

I love to see these folk jump to conclusion after conclusion. I'm not suffering from xenophobia just because I want a primarily white, Christian nation stay that way. These Liberals have convictions a mile wide but not an inch deep. It's bad for the native Germans to host that many refugees. No amount of mental gymnastics can leap over that hurdle. That being said, I hope the refugees who aren't chasing benefits and want to succeed in their new country can live the life they've dreamed of. But I'm not going to lie, I would want the population decreased if I was a native German. Pardon me for that but I am just being honest.

 

 

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/09/horror-muslim-migrant-in-europe-brutally-rapes-7-year-old-white-girl-video/

 

Though Germany is pretty atheist, aren't they? I'll shorten it: Germany is a white nation and it should stay that way. Not entirely but 800 thousand is like a joke. A Swedish parody.

 

Also btw Syria was destabilized by the U.S, Assad is a victim. But that's my opinion ofc.

Edited by Canadian Badass

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Smith John

Been a bit busy this week, so not had much to add to this thread the past few days. Just wanted to quickly say a few things.

 

This whole thing is making me extremely angry, as Europe's Führer- a politician of whom I was never given the right whether to vote for or not- is trying to force something on me that only my own [un]elected politicians that I at least had the opportunity to back should have the authority to do. So much for the democratic way of the European Union. I mean, Jesus/Allah/Moses/Joseph Smith/whatever/Christ, 800,000 and then 500,000 per year after that? I honestly thought it would take an invasion...sorry...sorry... an influx of this magnitude to prompt even the most stern of leftists into saying enough is enough. Guess not.

 

And a German news report of how its own already poor citizens are being made to leave their homes so they can be refurbished and provided for the immigrants.

 

Just their moral obligations, right? Sickening.

 

It's already clear the largest news broadcaster in the UK is pushing for this by putting as much pressure on the government as possible whilst trying to paint their own agenda as that of the public's (even though a recent poll showed the majority of Britons are either opposed to an increase of the government's proposal of 20,000, or want to see it decreased), and preying on the weak-minded with the usual sentimental stuff to add further pressure, but I hear the same propaganda is being pushed in Germany and other European countries.

 

Listen, I'm not a cold hearted bastard; I do have a huge amount of empathy for refugees- especially for the women, children and elderly- and I completely support and fully back our shared responsibility to rescue them within reasonable proportion, but opportunists taking advantage of the situation and hijacking the spaces of genuine refugees? Not so much.

 

And why oh why do the same people keep bringing up past atrocities throughout the centuries to justify everything? I thought you guys were supposed to be progressives, yet you keep looking towards the past as some 'now it's your turn' form of vengeful, hateful justification? I guess being progressive is only a selective street to drive through with some of you. Sh*t, why am I even complaining? As a Scot, I should probably prick my finger and take note here, and establish a revolt against those bloody English for what they did to my ancestors hundreds of years ago. Wait, we already have such a revolt: the SNP, who also consider themselves progressives...and socialists...but...but... nationalists at the same time!

 

Also, sivis, you seem to have this irresistible propensity to bring up far-right or Christian extremism as some form of 'balancing the books' in regards to terrorism against the West. Tell me, and I'm asking you on a willing-to-learn basis, over the past decade or so, on what level of successfully carried out terrorist attacks by Christian extremists on Western territory do you equate to that of its Islamic counterpart? We had the vast number of victims from Breivik- of whose [self]-provoked intentions was of that against the apparent Islamic conquering of Europe- but I'm speaking more on the figure of headline-hitting acts rather than the number of deaths of said acts.

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Svip

Ah, so you are against the media for pushing an agenda in favour of the refugees, then using that same yard stick to equate whether Christian and other non-Muslim terrorists have been successful in the last decade. I know Islamic terrorism have definitely been more front page news than other terrorism, but then at least don't go attacking the BBC for its editorial decisions, if that's what you need to prove another point.

 

Past mistakes should have consequences. Just like every mistake. But moreover, the world isn't fair, or at least not in that fashion you might think it should be. Like I said; it's the price we pay for being rich, free and alive, all at the same time. And of course, for not ensuring a more stable Middle East.

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Otter

Well we sure cocked things up in the East, that's for sure. I don't know anyone who would be stupid enough not to run away from ISIS, let alone a civil war where civilians become cannon fodder.

 

...but there's gotta be a better way than jamming these folks between either refugee camps or flooding communities with starving, frightened foreigners with no money or prospects and a loose or non-existent grasp of the local language and customs.

 

A blank check, Otter-is-a-madman scenario? The world creates a nation-sized Ellis Island with clean facilities, education, security, and sustainable living for people transitioning from refugee states. A little big brothery, a touch of facism, but an ideology-free UN led inititiative open to ANYONE seeking political asylum. But that's crazy, no?

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gooeyhole

Ah, so you are against the media for pushing an agenda in favour of the refugees, then using that same yard stick to equate whether Christian and other non-Muslim terrorists have been successful in the last decade. I know Islamic terrorism have definitely been more front page news than other terrorism, but then at least don't go attacking the BBC for its editorial decisions, if that's what you need to prove another point.

 

Past mistakes should have consequences. Just like every mistake. But moreover, the world isn't fair, or at least not in that fashion you might think it should be. Like I said; it's the price we pay for being rich, free and alive, all at the same time. And of course, for not ensuring a more stable Middle East.

We destabilized the Middle East, therefore any white European country deserves to be out populated and to lose their culture. Because that's what will happen. The more people who are from...say, Syria, will bring that country with them. Religiously and traditionally. I have absolutely no problem having a diverse country. But 800 thousand at once every years for 4 years or whatever in a country like Germany...what the f*ck happens during the winter exactly? How much new buildings are they making? And how will they pay for the new housing when the refugees are on benefits and continously pour into the country every year? This may seem great now. Give it a decade and the same refugees will he angry because the government has run out of other people's money.

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Smith John

@svip

 

There's that "we" word again.

 

And yes, I have a problem with how un-impartial the media is when it comes to the migrant crisis, but it obviously has to report on major terrorist acts, which is why I'm asking sivis what major Christian/far-right terrorism against the West and its cultures to the same scale of that of Islamists in Europe may or may not go under the radar. A question that appears to have escaped you, given your response.

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Svip

 

Ah, so you are against the media for pushing an agenda in favour of the refugees, then using that same yard stick to equate whether Christian and other non-Muslim terrorists have been successful in the last decade. I know Islamic terrorism have definitely been more front page news than other terrorism, but then at least don't go attacking the BBC for its editorial decisions, if that's what you need to prove another point.

 

Past mistakes should have consequences. Just like every mistake. But moreover, the world isn't fair, or at least not in that fashion you might think it should be. Like I said; it's the price we pay for being rich, free and alive, all at the same time. And of course, for not ensuring a more stable Middle East.

We destabilized the Middle East, therefore any white European country deserves to be out populated and to lose their culture. Because that's what will happen. The more people who are from...say, Syria, will bring that country with them. Religiously and traditionally. I have absolutely no problem having a diverse country. But 800 thousand at once every years for 4 years or whatever in a country like Germany...what the f*ck happens during the winter exactly? How much new buildings are they making? And how will they pay for the new housing when the refugees are on benefits and continously pour into the country every year? This may seem great now. Give it a decade and the same refugees will he angry because the government has run out of other people's money.

 

 

Wait, where are you getting your numbers? It was 200,000 last year. And fewer the year before that. And it's predicted to be 800,000 this year. Will it be more or less next year? Who knows!

 

There are 4 million Syrian refugees according to UNHCR. Even if they all went to Germany, that would still be only 4% of the German population being those refugees. Hardly Europeans being out populated. There are 371 million people in the Middle East, there are 508 million in the European Union (742 million in Europe). They cannot outnumber us. But the suggestion that they are all coming for us is ridiculous.

 

Then you are missing the fact that these people are refugees, they are not migrants, that means they'll be send back once their situation in their home countries have stabilised.

 

Also, the Iraq War, which pretty much created the Syrian Civil War was like 5-10 years ago, hardly past centuries.

 

And yes, I have a problem with how un-impartial the media is when it comes to the migrant crisis, but it obviously has to report on major terrorist acts, which is why I'm asking sivis what major Christian/far-right terrorism against the West and its cultures to the same scale of that of Islamists in Europe may or may not go under the radar. A question that appears to have escaped you, given your response.

 

No, it did not escape me, I just wasn't interested in that aspect, because it's not an argument I am making.

Edited by Svip
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Abel.

I think it's a bit disingenuous to say that the Iraq war created the Syrian Civil War. It was certainly a factor, but it's not the only one. Assad repressing his people leading to an uprising and power vacuum filled in by Islamists in the absence of foreign intervention for one. Blunders during the Iraq war certainly strengthened the precursor to ISIS, but it didn't create the group directly.

Edited by Failure
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Smith John

Wait, what are you on about? My argument of how blatant the media is in its advocation of pro-mass immigration? Or my QUESTION to sivis? Christ, I told myself I wouldn't get into this tonight, especially when having to post using a mobile to keep up...

 

[email protected]

Edited by John Smith

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Fonz
We destabilized the Middle East, therefore any white European country deserves to be out populated and to lose their culture. Because that's what will happen. The more people who are from...say, Syria, will bring that country with them. Religiously and traditionally. I have absolutely no problem having a diverse country. But 800 thousand at once every years for 4 years or whatever in a country like Germany...what the f*ck happens during the winter exactly? How much new buildings are they making? And how will they pay for the new housing when the refugees are on benefits and continously pour into the country every year? This may seem great now. Give it a decade and the same refugees will he angry because the government has run out of other people's money.

 

Spare us the bullsh*t sensationalist rhetoric, chief. Taking only the Syrian refugees into account, the 250 thousand that "flooded" Europe up until June make up about 2% of the total number of war escapees. There's about 4 million refugees spread out through the neighboring countries (Lebanon alone harboring about 1.2 million), according to the UN; fewer than 350 thousand sought asylum in Europe. The actual number of refugees knocking on Europe's "door" constitutes approximately 0.02% of Europe's population. But don't let factual accuracy get in the way of a good bullsh*t story about some evil plan to destroy Europe or whatever!

 

The notion that immigration causes unemployment suggests to me that you haven't read a single serious (by which I mean, non Faux News-sponsored) study on the subject. Don't try to fool yourself into thinking you've got a rational, analytical understanding of the matter. You're a racist fanatic, nothing else. Your obsession with whiteness is indicative of this. Don't bullsh*t yourself.

Edited by Black_MiD
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Svip

I think it's a bit disingenuous to say that the Iraq war created the Syrian Civil War. It was certainly a factor, but it's not the only one. Assad repressing his people leading to an uprising and power vacuum filled in by Islamists in the absence of foreign intervention for one.

 

Perhaps, but I think it's a larger factor than you are making it out to be. Assad repressing his people wasn't exactly knew by then. Hell, it wasn't when the Iraq War started. But what became the Islamic State was already building up, with little resistance by the frail Iraqi government. Not significant, no, until the Syrian Civil War started. Which started because of the Arab Spring (not that I say you should blame the West for creating Facebook and Twitter).

 

But the Islamic State would never have gotten this powerful without the weak Iraq. It's not complete chance that former Ba'ath Party members are now helping Islamic State.

 

Wait, what are you on about? My argument of how blatant the media is in its advocation of pro-mass immigration? Or my QUESTION to sivis? Christ, I told myself I wouldn't get into this tonight, especially when having to post using a mobile to keep up...

 

I apologise for being imprecise. I meant your question to sivispacem. I don't make the argument that non-Muslims have killed more people in terrorist attacks than Muslims, because I don't feel it's a contest.

 

Whether the media is advocating pro-mass immigration I don't buy, because this is a refugee crisis, not a migration crisis.

Edited by Svip
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gooeyhole

Svip you know damn well the refugees aren't going back to f*cking Syria. And yes I know those are the predictions. As I've gotten older I've realized the future isnt very far away so excuse me for my lack of tense. I'm not saying that they will behead a blue eyed blonde haird male and announce Sharia Law the moment they move in. But things will change. Germany will no longer be Germany within twenty years. Since the majority are military aged men, they will potentially breed with white Germans and raise their children Islamic. That isn't the Germany I've known my whole life. That's all I'm saying, they don't deserve to be inva- culturally enriched so much that they change identities. That's the sign of being a bit...overboard.

 

Sorry for being so...whiteness haha. I would feel the same way if Japan was carrying such burden. I don't know why preserving a type of human being is such a racist thing to advocate for. Thus is the new world though. I am nothing but a relic. :(

Edited by Canadian Badass

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Otter

Nah, the notion that the refugees will make a marked impression (for better or for worse) on a country's national identity is simply fearmongering. Over time, perhaps, but that's how the world works. And has always worked. Tomatoes don't even come from Italy, I could bring up, for the nth time.

 

The bigger issue is being able to care for our own downtrodden while simultaneously - safely - housing refugees. That's the rub.

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Abel.

 

I think it's a bit disingenuous to say that the Iraq war created the Syrian Civil War. It was certainly a factor, but it's not the only one. Assad repressing his people leading to an uprising and power vacuum filled in by Islamists in the absence of foreign intervention for one.

 

Perhaps, but I think it's a larger factor than you are making it out to be. Assad repressing his people wasn't exactly knew by then. Hell, it wasn't when the Iraq War started. But what became the Islamic State was already building up, with little resistance by the frail Iraqi government. Not significant, no, until the Syrian Civil War started. Which started because of the Arab Spring (not that I say you should blame the West for creating Facebook and Twitter).

 

But the Islamic State would never have gotten this powerful without the weak Iraq. It's not complete chance that former Ba'ath Party members are now helping Islamic State.

 

 

Assad's repression was one of the primary factors in motivating the uprising the against him back in 2011, which snowballed into the war. The Assad family certainly repressed their people long before 2011; I was speaking specifically of the "straw that broke the camel's back" in 2011 and pushed the populace too far (though I'm sure they were emboldened by the "successes" of the Arab Spring in other countries). Sorry I didn't make this clear. I didn't say that ISIS sprang spontaneously into existence after 2011. I'm fully aware that what became ISIS began in 2001 as Al Qaeda's Iraqi affiliate before a split after internal disputes.

 

A lot of the figures behind IS were detainees in prison camps within Iraq. The blunder I spoke of was not recognising the questionable decision to basically grant these individuals a chance to exchange ideas and ignoring the threat they'd pose to an Iraq without Saddam and a strong government. The issue was not fully taking into account sectarianism's power in Iraq, the rise of Salafist ideology amongst Sunnis in the region, withdrawing too early and, ultimately, complacency.

 

I'm not trying to deny the importance of the Iraq war in the current mess Syria and Iraq find themselves in, but it's important not to absolve the countries themselves of all culpability. This narrative which states that the West is fully responsible for all the ills of the region is not a good one. Sure, Western countries have done a lot of bad for the region (1939 White Paper which prevented Jews from returning to their homeland and major factor in the Holocaust; UN refusal to recognise Jewish refugees from the MENA region; aforementioned blunders in Iraq; allowing Saudi Arabia to export its ideology across the region) but it's extremely naive to suggest that they're the ones fully responsible for today's problems.

 

 

 

The bigger issue is being able to care for our own downtrodden while simultaneously - safely - housing refugees. That's the rub.

This is an excellent point. Lack of regard for the working man from all sides of the political spectrum has led to a great deal of the questionable attitudes towards migrants, particularly Eastern European and Islamic migrants, which exist in British society. I'm not trying to be an apologist for bigotry here, but many people don't understand the depth of poverty that exists in certain British communities.
Edited by Failure

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Fonz

Sorry for being so...whiteness haha. I would feel the same way if Japan was carrying such burden. I don't know why preserving a type of human being is such a racist thing to advocate for. Thus is the new world though. I am nothing but a relic. :(

Well, outside the realm of it being racist, it's just downright ignorant, really. It suggests such a huge lack of understanding of how Western culture was shaped (hint: colonia--erm, cosmopolitanism, assimilation etc.) that it's below humorous. At any point in Western history people could have peremptorily decided to "preserve" their culture and stop any form of alteration from taking place, thus stagnating, preventing evolution. The fact that they didn't is what gave you the culture you want to preserve nowadays, blissfully ignoring the nature of culture in the first place, or how your own culture was formed. There's a reason you have a certain notion of what constitutes your culture right now. But that's not really your problem, is it? You know all of this already. Likewise, you probably know, if you read my post, that the idea that a group representing the equivalent of 0.02% of Europe's population will somehow destroy "European civilization" (whatever the f*ck that even means) is utterly ridiculous.

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Otter

I mean, I guess if I kick someone it IS partially their responsibility for not getting out of the way. ;p

 

I'm being trite of course but ISIS wouldn't be a thing if we never borked things up 30 years ago. And since.

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Svip

Failure, I admit it was a bit overstating it. But it certainly makes us partly guilty.

 

Besides, I hold Europe to higher standards than I hold Middle East countries to. I assume you do as well.

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Abel.

Otter: Whilst it would be deluded to ignore the impact that Western interventions and policies have had in fermenting Islamic extremism, I really don't think it's as simple as "we messed up, hence Islamic extremism". This line of reasoning ignores the myriad other factors which have led to extremism of both Sunni and Shia varieties. Yes, the West has exacerbated things, but this is a very multifaceted issue. It's also a dangerous line of thought as it fosters cynicism and exaggeration--I know people who straight up believe that the US is funding ISIS and directly created ISIS. We must look at all angles of the problem.

 

 

 

Svip: Glad we've found a compromise.

Edited by Failure

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gooeyhole

Destroy European civilization. Destroy. Huh. Now that's a dirty word, destroy. I never thought of it that way. I was only saying how they'd change Germany. The German culture won't be a part of a significant amount of the new Germans mindset or lifestyle. These same people will elect leaders who they relate with. Rules they understand. Rules that can come from religion or their previous country. Is that always a bad thing? I shouldn't answer that. I don't want to get shut down by the word racist. If they take in so many refugees, at the pace they are at next year, the country will be very different by the time I'm 40 (I'm 24 now).

 

That's just an example of two people who think differently. Some will say Sweden is a utopia, others will say it's a tragedy. Not much different than the German situation.

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Otter

I think conflating Islamic extremism with ISIS is a bit of a stretch too.

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gooeyhole

I think conflating Islamic extremism with ISIS is a bit of a stretch too.

Bit of a stretch most definitely, there's a lot more groups than just ISIS. But ISIS isn't just a religious thing. It's much more than that.

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Abel.

I think conflating Islamic extremism with ISIS is a bit of a stretch too.

 

This really was not my intent, but I honestly don't think that Western interference is the only factor in the growth of either. It's certainly one factor in the former and perhaps one of the largest in the latter. I only brought up ISIS anecdotally at the end.

 

 

Again, sorry for not making myself clear.

 

 

Conflating Islamic extremism with ISIS is another dangerous road as it ignores the extremist element within the Shia world as well as the likes of Hamas, which, though majorly Sunni and certainly an Islamist extremist group, are not Salafist.

Edited by Failure
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Fonz

Destroy European civilization. Destroy. Huh. Now that's a dirty word, destroy. I never thought of it that way. I was only saying how they'd change Germany. The German culture won't be a part of a significant amount of the new Germans mindset or lifestyle. These same people will elect leaders who they relate with. Rules they understand. Rules that can come from religion or their previous country. Is that always a bad thing? I shouldn't answer that. I don't want to get shut down by the word racist. If they take in so many refugees, at the pace they are at next year, the country will be very different by the time I'm 40 (I'm 24 now)

Textbook case of a slippery slope fallacy. I was calling you out on your fallacious assumptions, particularly the part where they're not only unsupported, but also contradicted by facts. If you don't want to be called a racist, then maybe you should stop uncritically replicating the complete bile spewed by nationalists and fear mongering loonies?

Edited by Black_MiD
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Otter

Yeah, and you won't see me defending any religious extremism, but the ability for them to grab on to power was most definitely provided by our (western) meddling. It's a hydratic nightmare - take out the Taliban, you get Al Queda and IS and Boko Haram. (I hate to keep obnoxiously qualifying myself, but I'm painting in broad strokes here)

 

One would hope, at least, that it can't get much worse than ISIS. A nuclear-armed ISIS? Gulp.

 

At this stage, what's the smart play? Who do you back? Your former enemies, or the eneies of your enemies, or the bad guys who are less bad than the baddest guys... or do you just try to give people a safe place to flee too, so the creeps can sew their own destruction?

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Abel.

Now we're starting to touch on the nuance of the situation.

 

 

 

I don't know about a nuclear-armed ISIS, but a nuclear-armed Iran is a possibility (and a frightening one at that).

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