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American Viking

Do you consider the Confederate Flag racist?

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confederatestatesgta

ok guys so let me ask you this. do you think it was ok for the american colonies to succede from england? of course youll all say yes because we got our freedom and stuff. but think of it this way the colonial army is just like the confederate army they had slaves both north and southern colonies. they believed they were fighting for what was right. but maybe they werent the british had a right to tax the colonists after the french and indian war they felt they deserved payment for their hard labors and losses which is very reasonable. so why isint the colonial army hated and cursed at? because they won so as the victors they were able to write as much crap as they want. even my briitish friends told me they were never tought about it. so back to the confederates they lost so the north wanted to spew all the crap they could about how evil the south is. and please stop making it seem as though the south are the only people to practice slavery. the north had it just not as much and so did brittian but they stopped before the civil war. oh and during the war brittain needed cotton and they were close to siding with the south. so why dont we go and bash brittain? lets tell them they are evil for supporting the monsters that are the confederate army.

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AlienTwo

ok guys so let me ask you this. do you think it was ok for the american colonies to succede from england? of course youll all say yes because we got our freedom and stuff. but think of it this way the colonial army is just like the confederate army they had slaves both north and southern colonies. they believed they were fighting for what was right. but maybe they werent the british had a right to tax the colonists after the french and indian war they felt they deserved payment for their hard labors and losses which is very reasonable. so why isint the colonial army hated and cursed at? because they won so as the victors they were able to write as much crap as they want. even my briitish friends told me they were never tought about it. so back to the confederates they lost so the north wanted to spew all the crap they could about how evil the south is. and please stop making it seem as though the south are the only people to practice slavery. the north had it just not as much and so did brittian but they stopped before the civil war. oh and during the war brittain needed cotton and they were close to siding with the south. so why dont we go and bash brittain? lets tell them they are evil for supporting the monsters that are the confederate army.

Holy sh*t... STRAW MAN SIGHTED! Please veer accordingly...

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universetwisters

ok guys so let me ask you this. do you think it was ok for the american colonies to succede from england?

There's a big difference there. Correct me if I'm wrong since it's been a while since I took that subject in history, but we seceded from England because they were a sh*tty leader, to put it bluntly. On the other hand, the CSA seceded because they couldn't own people. Now I'm gonna ask you something out of curiosity, why do you like the CSA so much? Do you agree with their principles or do you just like the fact that your non-Polish ancestors fought defending said principles?

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confederatestatesgta

no as i have stated before i hate slavery i think its wrong and the people who support it is wrong. i support the confederacy because yes for my ancestors and other soldiers who fought for the confederacy. for the politicians in richmond i dont care for because they were just sitting probably with there raggedy slaves next to them. and i know some of the high end generals had slaves too. but i still have respect for them like general lee and stonewall jackson. but nathan bedford forest was very bad starting the kkk. but atleast he helped us win the battle of brentwood. but let me ask you this what do yall think of general shermans march to atlanta burning it? raping the women stealing crops destroying houses. or the siege of vicksburg? was that right of them to do? atleast the confederates were honorable in the fact that they kept the war on the battlefield and not in civilians homes.

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universetwisters

Did Sherman actually rape women or was that something propagated from the Lost Cause of the South? I highly doubt the confederates were honorable in the sense that they were fighting to own people. "Sure, let's own people and whip them for their wrongdoings, but god forbid them damn yankees invade our cities! We just want to own people, dammit!"

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AlienTwo

no as i have stated before i hate slavery i think its wrong and the people who support it is wrong. i support the confederacy because yes for my ancestors and other soldiers who fought for the confederacy. for the politicians in richmond i dont care for because they were just sitting probably with there raggedy slaves next to them. and i know some of the high end generals had slaves too. but i still have respect for them like general lee and stonewall jackson. but nathan bedford forest was very bad starting the kkk. but atleast he helped us win the battle of brentwood. but let me ask you this what do yall think of general shermans march to atlanta burning it? raping the women stealing crops destroying houses. or the siege of vicksburg? was that right of them to do? atleast the confederates were honorable in the fact that they kept the war on the battlefield and not in civilians homes.

Horrible acts, but it's war and full of horrible acts. You want to claim the greybacks are "honorable" though? What is your answer to Andersonville?

 

The greybacks kept the fighting away from civilians? It's easy to do when you barley step into enemy territory. False, but still... you're comparing apples to oranges. I mean the Nazi's went pretty easy on American civilians, relatively.

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Docfaustino

no as i have stated before i hate slavery i think its wrong and the people who support it is wrong. i support the confederacy because yes for my ancestors and other soldiers who fought for the confederacy. for the politicians in richmond i dont care for because they were just sitting probably with there raggedy slaves next to them. and i know some of the high end generals had slaves too. but i still have respect for them like general lee and stonewall jackson. but nathan bedford forest was very bad starting the kkk. but atleast he helped us win the battle of brentwood. but let me ask you this what do yall think of general shermans march to atlanta burning it? raping the women stealing crops destroying houses. or the siege of vicksburg? was that right of them to do? atleast the confederates were honorable in the fact that they kept the war on the battlefield and not in civilians homes.

 

To both bolded. 1. The hypocrisy just hits you right in the face. Look, it's basic reasoning. If one side was fighting to expand slavery and one side was fighting to stop its expansion, and you hate slavery, why would you ever side with the pro-expansion faction? "The north owned slaves too" doesn't justify it at all because the south..owned more slaves and wanted other territories to own slaves, which the north did not.

 

2. Why would a confederate win be a net gain for society especially if one of their lietenaunt generals ended up founded a religious terror organization?

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sivispacem

Hating slavery but supporting family members who fought in favour of it strikes me as every bit as contrary as claiming to hate antisemitism but supporting family members who were guards at Auschwitz. I mean, let's not beat aroud the bush, they were fighting primarily in favour of maintaining the right to keep and trade people as property.

 

Also, there's a fundamental distinction between a war of independence against a hegemonic external power and a war of secession against an internal "enemy" in a Federal union where the right to secession didn't, and still doesn't, exist.

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confederatestatesgta

yea guys laugh at me because of my opinions all you want. well im pretty sure that the northerners arent the saints you think they are. and andersonville well yea it was pretty bad but im sure the northern prison camps werent a holiday either. to be honest i think im just gonna leave these debate forums. everytime i give my two cents like rusty said everybody just gangs up on me. its hardly a fair debate.

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universetwisters

yea guys laugh at me because of my opinions all you want. well im pretty sure that the northerners arent the saints you think they are. and andersonville well yea it was pretty bad but im sure the northern prison camps werent a holiday either. to be honest i think im just gonna leave these debate forums. everytime i give my two cents like rusty said everybody just gangs up on me. its hardly a fair debate.

 

We never said the Northern states were any better than the Southern states. They had their flaws as well. However, they didn't feel the need to secede over the fact they couldn't own people. And the Northern Prison Camps may have been bad, but I'd rather be there than picking cotton, getting discriminated against because of the color of my skin and being whipped if I go too slow.

 

I know I don't come on this board often and I dunno how much liberty I got saying this, but if you wanna leave, go ahead. Don't forget to take your pro-slavery ideas and godawful grammar with you. That sh*t belongs in poorly-written Sonic fanfiction, not a debate forum.

Edited by universetwisters

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Dingdongs

no as i have stated before i hate slavery i think its wrong and the people who support it is wrong. i support the confederacy because yes for my ancestors and other soldiers who fought for the confederacy. for the politicians in richmond i dont care for because they were just sitting probably with there raggedy slaves next to them. and i know some of the high end generals had slaves too. but i still have respect for them like general lee and stonewall jackson. but nathan bedford forest was very bad starting the kkk. but atleast he helped us win the battle of brentwood. but let me ask you this what do yall think of general shermans march to atlanta burning it? raping the women stealing crops destroying houses. or the siege of vicksburg? was that right of them to do? atleast the confederates were honorable in the fact that they kept the war on the battlefield and not in civilians homes.

I mean yeah, Sherman was known for being the Butcher and that's taught in pretty much any class that truly looks at history. I went to High School in New York and we learned about Sherman's actions too. Interestingly enough while that was considered worthy of the title "The Butcher" then, his methods of war fighting are now standard doctrine and have been since the 20th century. Denial of access, burning crops and farms to deny enemy to food... It is commonly accepted war doctrine today even though it was considered dishonorable then.

 

The Southern generals you mention are also very honorable men (for their time), Lee especially. He wasn't even pro slavery. He joined the South because he was a Virginian and Virginia seceded. None of that however changes the fact that the war was fought over the expansion of slavery. It is factually indisputable.

 

Rusty, both of those articles ar, for a lack of a better term, hogwash. The one from Mises which itself is a highly biased source in itself essentially is saying that the South had absolutely no stake in the war and "only fought because they were invaded". And the idea that Davis wanted to free slaves is a complete crock of sh*t. You should have known to discount that article when they refered to him as "A benevolent slave-owner".

Referring to the second article, the following quote just about sums it up. Taken directly from the article -

"In order to gain the recognition of the British and French governments, something that had eluded the Confederacy since the beginning of the War, Kenner suggested that Davis tell both governments that the Confederacy would abolish slavery. No timeframe was discussed,"

 

No timeframe, just make an empty promise to gain recognition. But I actually question whether it would've made a difference, since by 1864 when the South was losing and the war, the British could give a sh*t because they had established a protectorate over Egypt and they had all the cotton they'd ever need. That was the reason they were wanting to recognize the South, really nothing more.

Edited by Irviding

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darthYENIK

It's not inherently racist, but has become, over the years a symbol of an attitude that purveys a racist ideology. I know a few southerners who wave the flag as just a symbol of the south, much like how it was in the Dukes of Hazzard. But certain groups have taken it as a symbol to spread the word and desire to return to a time when racism was a way of life.

 

So sadly, yes, it has become a symbol of racism. There might be a million who wave the flag as being a proud southerner who has no racist intentions, but the loudest flag wavers are generally in the minority.

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El Dildo

everytime i give my two cents like rusty said everybody just gangs up on me. its hardly a fair debate.

 

it's perfectly fair.

 

your 2 cents happen to be insane.

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confederatestatesgta

 

 

 

We never said the Northern states were any better than the Southern states. They had their flaws as well. However, they didn't feel the need to secede over the fact they couldn't own people. And the Northern Prison Camps may have been bad, but I'd rather be there than picking cotton, getting discriminated against because of the color of my skin and being whipped if I go too slow.

 

I know I don't come on this board often and I dunno how much liberty I got saying this, but if you wanna leave, go ahead. Don't forget to take your pro-slavery ideas and godawful grammar with you. That sh*t belongs in poorly-written Sonic fanfiction, not a debate forum.

ok how many times have i said im against slavery? and bad grammer?? give me a break i have seen plenty of bad grammer on here before. and if you said you are from the south yet you side with the north thats sad. traitor.

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universetwisters

and if you said you are from the south yet you side with the north thats sad. traitor.

So just because I live in the south, I should automatically side with the former CSA, even though I disagree with their principles as much as any sane person can?

 

Yes, I'm a traitor because I think all races are equal.

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Dingdongs

Thank god I live in Virginia/DC. Any more south than this and guys like him would be considered to be making a legitimate argument.

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universetwisters

Thank god I live in Virginia/DC. Any more south than this and guys like him would be considered to be making a legitimate argument.

Hate to go off topic, but which part you in at? I used to live in Alexandria, coincidentally right near the Fort Ward civil war site

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Dingdongs

 

Thank god I live in Virginia/DC. Any more south than this and guys like him would be considered to be making a legitimate argument.

Hate to go off topic, but which part you in at? I used to live in Alexandria, coincidentally right near the Fort Ward civil war site

I go to school in DC and part of my family lives in Herndon now. Alexandria isn't too far off.

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universetwisters

 

 

Thank god I live in Virginia/DC. Any more south than this and guys like him would be considered to be making a legitimate argument.

Hate to go off topic, but which part you in at? I used to live in Alexandria, coincidentally right near the Fort Ward civil war site
I go to school in DC and part of my family lives in Herndon now. Alexandria isn't too far off.Groovy sh*t. Check out Fort Ward if you ever get the opportunity. It's got all the old cannons and fort walls and sh*t. It was great fun going there when I was younger with my father for the civil war reenactments.

 

But yeah, thinking you should support the confederacy simply because you live in south is pretty fallible. Suppose I move to Dresden. Does that mean I support the Nazis or the former GDR?

Edited by universetwisters

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Dingdongs

Cool I will sometime. Although when my family first moved down here and we went to Williamsburg my uncle locked me in the stocks for 25 minutes when I was 7 so I may have a subconscious aversion to the battle sites.

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universetwisters

It's great fun, especially whenever they hold reenactments. Plus, it's always good to go to those things to fully understand about the war and where one of the battles was. Although in Fort Ward's case, it's where it could've potentially have been a battle but regardless, it's always good to expand your horizons so you don't become so close minded like our friend a few posts above.

 

UJnG1.jpg

 

Pic related, my father and my brother there at a reenactment sometime in 1980something. My dad's dressed up as a Union soldier. Groovy good.

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don ovdi' island

Thank god I live in Virginia/DC. Any more south than this and guys like him would be considered to be making a legitimate argument.

 

don't let your view of the south become tainted because of one idiot. It's obvious he's either trolling or is in the minority. You can't stereotype a whole geographical region -- they have racists in the north and open-minds in the south, believe it or not.

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Absurdity

 

 

Apologies if I'm interrupting the cowardly popular bullying of confederatestatesgta, and the masses Orwellian 2 Minutes of Hate , but, only an entirely stupified person would believe that the confederate flag represents racism. The only reason you came to believe that is because you came to believe the pop culture fairytale that the united states civil war was fought to free slaves - because you're a media raised moppet.
The fact is that the confederacy had a plan to abolish slavery, and most of the confederacy were against it because they were poor whites who had to compete with slave labor for jobs. They weren't all bad - the union wasn't all good either. A lot in the union had slaves, including child slaves of all races.
Also, the Emancipation Proclamation (which was, in fact, a clever tactic by the union to make the war appear to be about slavery and deter English involvement in the war) did not "free" slaves in Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky, West Virginia, or Missouri. It only "freed" slaves in areas in "rebellion" against the union. And if the Confederacy is deemed to have been a separate country, it was not subject to the proclamation.
Cowards.

 

Oh boy... looks like you got a hold of a wiki page or something and decided to just spew some of the facts forward without any real thought or study put into them... We will start with the last thing you stated "the Confederacy is deemed to have been a separate country, it was not subject to the proclamation." It wasn't. That was the whole point of the war. If the CSA was recognized as a separate country than #1) any war wouldn't have been a "Civil War" but just a normal war between different nations #2) there would have been no war, as the whole reason for the conflict was the US didn't agree that the CSA could just take their ball and go home.

 

The Emancipation Proclamation was indeed like you said, used as a tactic against the CSA and yes, some northern states didn't abolish slavery until 1865 with the 13th amendment. This was a formality though, as only a few limited cases of enslavement had been occurring. The CSA actively tried to re-ignite (as they had been illegally taking part in the slave trade)the African Slave trade duing their brief time of existence, something the US had officially ended decade

 

The Confederacy only began to plan to free a few slaves in a few states as a last ditch move to attempt to win that hopeless war. Which failed. The major tipping point that caused South Carolina to begin the domino effect of the racist CSA deciding they didn't want to play with the rest of the country anymore was the election of Abraham Lincoln, an abolitionist.

So before causing people of being "media-moppets" (whoever the f*ck that means) you should understand that if you got your information from your southern schools, possibly it's bullsh*t if it's written in the same book that states Noah really built an ark, evolution isn't real and humans are just arrogant if they believe they are responsible for out current destruction of planet Earth. The South isn't exactly a bastion of good educational principles.

 

"If P is true, I will be unhappy. I do not wish to be unhappy; therefore, P is not true." - Mantra of the cowardly alien moppet.

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sivispacem

That's pretty poor form, even for you. I can only assume that you've run out of things pseudo-intelligent to say and instead of responding to a post which quite clearly addresses several of the glaring flaws in the logic of your response..well, the rest is self-explanatory. Might I suggest that you either abide by the rules of D&D with respect to coherent arguments or sod off elsewhere?

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Share Sharqi

However, that applies equally to your unsubstantiated 'reasoning'. We Brits knew when we were beat, after all we imposed ridiculous taxes to pay for guardianship against the army of a country a few thousand miles away (France) that our monarch was in a tiff about. So skipping all the War of Independence stuff (huzzah), I don't think any detailed historical account of the American Civil War era wanted to portray figures such as Abraham Lincoln as divine guardians of morality, rather seeing that the future of the United States should be built upon equality for all. Not being an American I can't profess to know the grand southern heritage denoted by you flying the flag of the Confederacy, or whatever the hell you say, I just know that even politicians over here take the piss out of people that fly the English flag when not on the national day, much for the same reason. Working class yobs that desperately and blindly cling to their nationalistic symbols that don't mean horse sh*t, because at the end of the day they have nothing else to cling to. No education, no money, poor health. But they got symbols, to tide em by till the day they die, and the foolish delusion that this makes them special, or knowledgeable - in possession of some great truth. Just like religion. But that is a different subject entirely.

 

I don't think that the flag itself condones racism, or that all the people that bear with it are racists, but if a person is ignorant enough to think that nobody would get that impression they might as well go back to their Evangelist group and wish for the death of 'Obama the "Antichrist"' because nobody else cares.


[it took me a few minutes to compose this message. It is in reference, not to 'sivispacem', but 'Rusty Balls']

Edited by Share Sharqi

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Niobium

Some African American people don't consider the flag racist. Whilst conducting basic research, I came upon the following website.

 

"If you want to ask me about my ancestral roots, I am a Confederate-American. I was born colored, negro, then one day somebody decided to make me African-American. Nobody asked me about that. Africa didn't want me then, and she certainly doesn't want me now."

On slave reparations:

"Our history has been lied about so much starting back in 1865, with the Northern propaganda used to try and drive a wedge between black folks and white folks."

"Reparations is just another lie. I'm not looking for reparations. That's just another way to divide white folks and black folks."

H-K-Edgerton.jpg

H.K. Edgerton

wow... talk about stockholm syndrome

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Share Sharqi

I bet the Northern White folks were just trying to drive another 'wedge' with the African American Civil Rights movement too

Edited by Share Sharqi

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El Dildo

"If P is true, I will be unhappy. I do not wish to be unhappy; therefore, P is not true." - Mantra of the cowardly alien moppet.

aw sh/t he's busting out the big guns now.

 

he's called us cowards twice AND threw in moppets.

how can we possibly argue against such airtight logical smackdowns?

 

guys I think we have to concede that the Confederate Flag is not racist at all and that no mere mortal should attempt to match wits with the likes of Rusty Balls. clearly this guy was on the Debate Team in high school. we are totally out of our league.

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Share Sharqi

This guy WAS the debate team.

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universetwisters

I still think the above argument by CSGTA was interesting. Not interesting in the thought that it's something to loose any sleep over or anything like that, just interesting in how fallible it is.

 

"You live in X. Thus, you must side with every belief that was widely supported in X in the past". What happens if you move up to the northern states? Do you become a "damn yankee" and hate on the south? I keep thinking there's an actual name for that fallacy but I could be wrong.

Edited by universetwisters

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