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American Viking

Do you consider the Confederate Flag racist?

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sivispacem

I wouldn't be so black-and-white about it personally. I think you're right W/R/T the Confederate battle flag, but you also have to take into account that different symbols carry different meanings in different places. That's why I don't think the Swastika is necessarily a symbol universally associated with National Socialism.

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WHAT!?

The swastika is supposed to be a symbol of peace, put it on a German flag and it's the ultimate symbol of hate. It cannot escape that association with a moment in time.

 

Was what I said...

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universetwisters

On an interesting note about the Swastika, there was a town in Canada that was named Swastika. During WW2, the province (Ontario?) officials tried to rename it to "Winston", but the locals refused, saying that their name stood for good luck or something to that effect.

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don ovdi' island

Is the flag racist? No. As said multiple times before, it's a flag, incapable of possessing thought or reason. However, it is a symbol of hatred. That pride stuff is a bunch of B.S. I'm very proud of my home, I'd not want to live anywhere else. I was born and raised in US deep south, and i never wore a hat or T-shirt with the confederate flag on it, nor have I had one flying outside my house, or as a license plate on my car. The same type of people to wear the Confederate flag and defend it are the same type of people who say "Oh, I dont hate Mexicans, but i hate all the spics who cross the border illegally." or, "Oh, i dont hate black people, I hate ni**ers." Which, in reality, makes no sense. The same people further justify the term "ni**er" by saying "Oh, anyone can be a ni**er, not just blacks. Whites can be ni**ers too." Knowing, in reality, that they've NEVER called another white that term before, outside of the context "ni**er-lover"...

 

There is no pride to be held in the Confederate flag outside of a social issue that will haunt today's society forever. The way our society is looking, generations and generations long after us will still be fighting a useless, prejudice filled battle fueled by our government to keep people divided.

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Slasher

It's only racist if you make it racist.

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El Dildo

....well yeah.

 

that's kinda what the whole Civil War did.

make it racist.

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confederatestatesgta

in my opinion nope. i even have one hanging up next to my polish flag in my room. i wont lie i know all about slavery i know its wrong but i see the flag as a symbol of southern pride. and also the north had slaves too maybe not as much as the south but they had them. and the north was racist aswell. just watch the movie glory there was and afro american seargent and he gave orders to white privates and they said no. and most of the soldier who fought under that flag didint care about slavery they were young tough and itching for some fun. it was the officers and politicians who owned slaves. its like they said a rich mans war but a poor mans fight. if you lived in the south maybe you had a farm and were just barely making it and some war comes along and your bored or maybe you hunt what would you do? most southerners 18 and older joined up. they dont care about slavery they just want to have some fun. the same thing happened for the north. the southerners just saw it as defending their homes. and some southern states were partially agianst slavery like how west virginia was just virginia until they succeded from there. my home state tennessee was on the border. the east was for the north and the west was for south it took middle tennessee to go southern. but thats just my opinion. of course im southern so i naturally side with the south. but i will agree slavery and racisim is wrong. and it pisses me off when people see my name and assume im a redneck racist southerner. and that is far from the truth. please stop stereotyping its just as bad as racisim.

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Dingdongs

yea i am from the south 2 honestly forget these negro complaints i read in a book that the north was a racists too these boy just wanted some good ol fashion glory they ain't want none a slave just to kill some negro lovin yanks

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I cucked Alex Jones

You have dispelled no stereotypes with that post. Just thought you should know.

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universetwisters

...of course im southern so i naturally side with the south...

I was born in Virginia and I live in Florida. So naturally, I side with the North because of their principles.

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El Dildo

stereotyping its just as bad as racisim.

no, it's not.

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sivispacem

Every defence of Southern interests by confederatestatesgta seems to contain the like "just watch [insert movie here]". I wonder if he's aware that movies aren't real?

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confederatestatesgta

i wonder if sivispacem is aware that people do research when they make movies like that. but to be honest none of us know what the civil war was like. were any of us there? no i was not universetwisters was not there, sivispacem was not, el diablo was not. the point is we were not there to know 100% what really happened. history is written by the victor so obviously the yankees could have covered up important facts about it. now im not claiming to know all about the war just what i know from my parents, my civil war class at school, living near a major civil war battlefield. and antique collecting. i fly my confederate flag proud not because of racisim but out of respect to the men and my ancestors who fought under it. so you can call me a racist, redneck, polack or a stupid piece of sh*t redneck who cant spell i dont give a sh*t. ive been called it too many times to care. and before you start breaking me down and saying im wrong remember you were not there either.

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universetwisters

...i fly my confederate flag proud not because of racisim but out of respect to the men and my ancestors who fought under it...

"I fly my Nazi flag proud, not because I'm antisemitic who believes one race is superior than the other, but out of respect of my great uncle Hanskrugler who fought under it".

 

 

Do you not see how asinine that sounds?

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sivispacem

Well, there's this handy thing called "recorded history". We can assess with a reasonable degree of accuracy what happened as it's been, y'know, recorded. Also, the amount of historical due diligence done in most historical films, particularly older ones, is pretty atrocious.

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I cucked Alex Jones

Yeah, we're not exactly starving when it comes to primary sources of the Civil War. It was pretty well documented.

 

Movies aren't primary sources btw.

Edited by Eris

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El Dildo

to be honest none of us know what the civil war was like.

to be honest?

you're smoking crack.

 

we know exactly what the Civil War was like.

in addition to primitive photography, we have countless documents from first-hand participants; soldiers, generals, congressmen, the President, slaves, slave owners, and ordinary citizens from both North and South.

 

the Civil War was recent.

we're not talking ancient history. you should stop digging this hole you're in while you still have the ability to climb out.

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Tyler

on a completely related note, you guys have no idea what WWII was like, none of you were there the truth is the Nazis were just looking for glory I saw it in a movie so I have as much authority as anyone else thanks to my self-deflective backpeddling goalpost-shifting rhetoric

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El Dildo

sh/t... WW2 was a thing, man.

not a place.

 

truth is?

nobody was there.

 

K0iDSmp.jpg

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Absurdity
Apologies if I'm interrupting the cowardly popular bullying of confederatestatesgta, and the masses Orwellian 2 Minutes of Hate , but, only an entirely stupified person would believe that the confederate flag represents racism. The only reason you came to believe that is because you came to believe the pop culture fairytale that the united states civil war was fought to free slaves - because you're a media raised moppet.


The fact is that the confederacy had a plan to abolish slavery, and most of the confederacy were against it because they were poor whites who had to compete with slave labor for jobs. They weren't all bad - the union wasn't all good either. A lot in the union had slaves, including child slaves of all races.


Also, the Emancipation Proclamation (which was, in fact, a clever tactic by the union to make the war appear to be about slavery and deter English involvement in the war) did not "free" slaves in Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky, West Virginia, or Missouri. It only "freed" slaves in areas in "rebellion" against the union. And if the Confederacy is deemed to have been a separate country, it was not subject to the proclamation.


Cowards.

Edited by Rusty Balls

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Dingdongs

What plan to abolish slavery are you talking about? The main goal of the South in fighting the war was to expand slavery to the newly acquired territories in the West while the Union did not want that. It was not a war to end slavery in the South, you're right. But your version is quite white-washed.

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confederatestatesgta

thanks rusty and your right about all of that you said. its a southern thing they dont understand. and tyler your a mod i would have never guessed that due to how rude that paragragh was. is there a need to mock me? im not mocking you guys or trying to offend anyone im just stating my opinions and what ive been told.

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universetwisters

its a southern thing they dont understand.

As I said in another thread, I was born in Virginia and I live in Florida and I am as anti-south as the next "damn yankee". But seriously though, The CSA was going to abolish slavery? If you could cite your source for that, that would be wonderful, because the only quick instance of that I could find was this article here, and even then it seems misinterpreted in this sense:

 

 

The Confederate Constitution allowed for the admission of free states to the Confederacy, banned the overseas slave trade, and permitted Confederate states to abolish slavery within their borders if they wanted to do so. During the Confederate debate on emancipation, both sides readily acknowledged that under the Confederate Constitution each state had the absolute right to abolish slavery within its borders (see, for example, Durden, The Gray and the Black, pp. 98, 115, 170,195).

That said, it makes sense that if the CSA wanted to abolish slavery, they could do so, but given the numbers as shown here, the main reason the south seceded was because they couldn't own people, so that seems unlikely for the most part.

 

pie-charts-700x.jpg

 

And to rustyballs, I see the confederate battle flag the same way I see a swastika, a symbol of hate and as a part of history that makes you think "Why did we do that back then". Problem is, though, the swastika has a saving grace to it in the sense that it's a sacred symbol in Hinduism & Budhism. On the other hand, there isn't really much else there is for a confederate battle flag other than being the flag a bunch of hicks died under defending their rights to own people.

Edited by universetwisters

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sivispacem

Rusty again coming in with the one-two of historical revisionism and the accusation that anyone who doesn't believe said revisionism is brainwashed mass media lackeys. Always good for an early morning laugh.

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Absurdity

What plan to abolish slavery are you talking about? The main goal of the South in fighting the war was to expand slavery to the newly acquired territories in the West while the Union did not want that.

 

http://www.libertyclassroom.com/slavery-and-the-civil-war-revisited/

 

http://mises.org/library/lincolns-inversion-american-union#ref4

Edited by Rusty Balls

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Dingdongs

It may just be the fact that I've been awake for 27 hours straight, most of which spent in the library, but I can't see anything there proving your point. That's a plan to arm slaves to help fight the numerically superior Union. And it was totally ignored by Davis.

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don ovdi' island

 

Apologies if I'm interrupting the cowardly popular bullying of confederatestatesgta, and the masses Orwellian 2 Minutes of Hate , but, only an entirely stupified person would believe that the confederate flag represents racism. The only reason you came to believe that is because you came to believe the pop culture fairytale that the united states civil war was fought to free slaves - because you're a media raised moppet.
The fact is that the confederacy had a plan to abolish slavery, and most of the confederacy were against it because they were poor whites who had to compete with slave labor for jobs. They weren't all bad - the union wasn't all good either. A lot in the union had slaves, including child slaves of all races.
Also, the Emancipation Proclamation (which was, in fact, a clever tactic by the union to make the war appear to be about slavery and deter English involvement in the war) did not "free" slaves in Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky, West Virginia, or Missouri. It only "freed" slaves in areas in "rebellion" against the union. And if the Confederacy is deemed to have been a separate country, it was not subject to the proclamation.
Cowards.

 

Cant tell if serious or… First of all, perhaps why confederatestatesga is getting so much crap is because it appears like he has no idea what he's talking about...

 

Second, nothing in your argument actually stops the true, disgusting, hateful meaning of the Confederate flag. It only says "Hey, the north had slaves too.. they're the real racists. Don't look over here, look over there!"

 

So if not racism, what does the Confederate flag represent, may I ask you? Rebellion? Yeah, rebellion to a policy that freed slaves in the states within the Confederacy. The Confederate states didn't give a damn if the north had slaves or not, they were fighting to "protect" what they thought was their right to hold human slave labor in sub-human conditions. If the Confederacy would have won the Civil War, what do you think would have happened? Slaves would have continued to be the norm across the entire country and would have spread out as the country got bigger until an eventual uprising. Southern pride? What a croc of chit. As stated before, myself along with others here are southern born and bred, and we do not fly the Confederate battle flag - not as a symbol of misled "pride", not out of respect, not for history, not for anything. There's quite a few flags that I would fly, but a Confederate flag is not one of them. If I'm going to fly a U.S. flag, I'll fly the flag for the State of Louisiana.

 

Would wear a KKK outfit and try to justify that? Would you wear a Nazi Swastika band across your sleeve and try to justify that? Because you attempting to justify that Confederate flag is just as disgusting.

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sivispacem

Mises are a fairly hard-right, anarcho-Capitalist and Austrian school Libertarian think tank. Them championing the notion that the Confederacy were seeking to abolish slavery anyway and of their own volition would hardly be unexpected, though pretty hollow as some of their senior fellows have expressed disdain for the laws precenting modern slavery or child labour, so it's likely to constitute a ploy to re-brand slavery as something less nefarious or possibly simply deferring to the notion of the rights of the state versus the federal government. But Irv is right, the so called "plan to abolish slavery" wasn't so much a plan but a promise given in desperation by the Confederates to attempt to garner support and recognition from European powers. And this only came when their defeat looked imminent.

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Tyler

its a southern thing they dont understand.

 

I understand quite well the pride with which the South is so unnecessarily draped. I've worked and lived throughout the region, it's not an alien to me. I'm not some inauthentic critic like you seem to think. The truth is that even I (in fact, especially I) recognize the perversion of this kind of nonsense and how it has become entrenched in our cultural paradigm. There is nothing to be proud over. Anything resembling integrity and warm-hearted tradition was thrown out of the window the moment this place actually fed its own sons to a slaughterhouse against the USA in a spineless rebellion to continue owning other people like property.

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AlienTwo

 

Apologies if I'm interrupting the cowardly popular bullying of confederatestatesgta, and the masses Orwellian 2 Minutes of Hate , but, only an entirely stupified person would believe that the confederate flag represents racism. The only reason you came to believe that is because you came to believe the pop culture fairytale that the united states civil war was fought to free slaves - because you're a media raised moppet.
The fact is that the confederacy had a plan to abolish slavery, and most of the confederacy were against it because they were poor whites who had to compete with slave labor for jobs. They weren't all bad - the union wasn't all good either. A lot in the union had slaves, including child slaves of all races.
Also, the Emancipation Proclamation (which was, in fact, a clever tactic by the union to make the war appear to be about slavery and deter English involvement in the war) did not "free" slaves in Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky, West Virginia, or Missouri. It only "freed" slaves in areas in "rebellion" against the union. And if the Confederacy is deemed to have been a separate country, it was not subject to the proclamation.
Cowards.

 

Oh boy... looks like you got a hold of a wiki page or something and decided to just spew some of the facts forward without any real thought or study put into them... We will start with the last thing you stated "the Confederacy is deemed to have been a separate country, it was not subject to the proclamation." It wasn't. That was the whole point of the war. If the CSA was recognized as a separate country than #1) any war wouldn't have been a "Civil War" but just a normal war between different nations #2) there would have been no war, as the whole reason for the conflict was the US didn't agree that the CSA could just take their ball and go home.

 

The Emancipation Proclamation was indeed like you said, used as a tactic against the CSA and yes, some northern states didn't abolish slavery until 1865 with the 13th amendment. This was a formality though, as only a few limited cases of enslavement had been occurring. The CSA actively tried to re-ignite (as they had been illegally taking part in the slave trade)the African Slave trade duing their brief time of existence, something the US had officially ended decade

 

The Confederacy only began to plan to free a few slaves in a few states as a last ditch move to attempt to win that hopeless war. Which failed. The major tipping point that caused South Carolina to begin the domino effect of the racist CSA deciding they didn't want to play with the rest of the country anymore was the election of Abraham Lincoln, an abolitionist.

So before causing people of being "media-moppets" (whoever the f*ck that means) you should understand that if you got your information from your southern schools, possibly it's bullsh*t if it's written in the same book that states Noah really built an ark, evolution isn't real and humans are just arrogant if they believe they are responsible for out current destruction of planet Earth. The South isn't exactly a bastion of good educational principles.

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