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Vangelo

U.S. Police militarized

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Vangelo

image.jpg1_zpsbawiam89.jpg


Today the American police have drastically started to become militarized in the weapons they use to the vehicals they drive. More and more american tax dollars are going towards arming the Law Enforcment agencies all around the country. Officials say its beneficial to the people making a safer environment while the people say it creates fear in them and causes horrible events.


What are your opinions on the police becoming militarized? Edited by Vangelo

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AlienTwo

Interestingly enough, it's not extra tax dollars going to arm the departments (in fact, most departments are facing more and more cuts, a major part of the problem) but excess military gear from the winding down of US Middle Eastern involvement. If the departments were given more funding for more officers and better training, they might be able to realize what a bad idea having a militarized persona is.

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Sergiu

I actually miss the good ol' fatass/ soft-hearted police officer cliché.
These guys were human. The current police force is anything but human.

It's great that we progress are progressing in the technology domain but we are also losing our original friendliness and that something that made humanity human.

These are just my feelings on the topic though. If you disagree, it's up to you. Note, this is in no way meant to be taken as fact and/or public opinion as a whole.

Edited by CasualSergiu

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Dingdongs

I would agree that there is an over militarization of many departments. However it's important to consider the factors at play here. As Alien pointed out this is not due to departments blowing budgets on it but rather the DOD transferring equipment to DHS who in turn gives it to local PDs in the form of grants.

 

While I think it does hurt community policing efforts to have such heavy equipment, it can be a good thing if used responsibly and to a limit. For example many smaller departments and sheriff's departments make use of the MRAPs as a way to almost immediately defuse an active shooter situation, robbery, etc as a way to show force. If you have a robbery going on and the Sheriff's office shows up with an MRAP, criminals are much more likely to put down their weapons and not engage them than if they showed up in patrol cars and regular uniforms with handguns. Also, big city departments like NY, LA, DC, etc do need this type of equipment due to the threats they deal with. I do think it is a little far reaching for small town departments to issue their officers long guns to have as backup weapons in their cruisers. I really don't see how that would increase officer safety enough to justify the damage it does to the department from the community.

Edited by Irviding

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AlienTwo

I would agree that there is an over militarization of many departments. However it's important to consider the factors at play here. As Alien pointed out this is not due to departments blowing budgets on it but rather the DOD transferring equipment to DHS who in turn gives it to local PDs in the form of grants.

 

While I think it does hurt community policing efforts to have such heavy equipment, it can be a good thing if used responsibly and to a limit. For example many smaller departments and sheriff's departments make use of the MRAPs as a way to almost immediately defuse an active shooter situation, robbery, etc as a way to show force. If you have a robbery going on and the Sheriff's office shows up with an MRAP, criminals are much more likely to put down their weapons and not engage them than if they showed up in patrol cars and regular uniforms with handguns. Also, big city departments like NY, LA, DC, etc do need this type of equipment due to the threats they deal with. I do think it is a little far reaching for small town departments to issue their officers long guns to have as backup weapons in their cruisers. I really don't see how that would increase officer safety enough to justify the damage it does to the department from the community.

This is true, but I've heard (through news interviews and documentary films) that often the departments are required to use their equipment within a year, every year, in order to keep it. For big cities like the ones you called out, this isn't a problem and probably is needed, but for the smaller departments who might only need it once or twice a decade (at most) this only encourages full SWAT raids to nab low-level non-violent offenders and really helps to damage their (the police's) reputation in the process. This rider does not encourage responsibility or self-limitations on the use of the equipment. While I think a better use would be melting down said equipment for scrap, if they do want to provide local PDs with it, the "must use" riders need to be removed.

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universetwisters

I know a guy on facebook who constantly does nothing but post stuff along the lines of "One cop shot Michael Brown so let's shoot forty of them" or something to that effect. Then he says that the cops shouldn't have assault rifles and grenade launchers. I'm not sure what a cop's going to do with a grenade launcher, but assault rifles make sense because in this day and age, anyone can get a hold of them.

 

But yeah, for back to the point, I wouldn't say they're becoming "militarized", but rather they're getting better equipment, as Alien said above. That and, with my statement above, I don't know who would be against cops having assault rifles when anyone can get them these days. But with all this new equipment, new training should be brought in place. You don't just give a kid a bike and expect the kid to learn how to ride it him/herself, much like how you don't give cops all this equipment and say "go defend the neighborhood, have fun".

Edited by universetwisters

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Dingdongs

 

 

I would agree that there is an over militarization of many departments. However it's important to consider the factors at play here. As Alien pointed out this is not due to departments blowing budgets on it but rather the DOD transferring equipment to DHS who in turn gives it to local PDs in the form of grants.

 

While I think it does hurt community policing efforts to have such heavy equipment, it can be a good thing if used responsibly and to a limit. For example many smaller departments and sheriff's departments make use of the MRAPs as a way to almost immediately defuse an active shooter situation, robbery, etc as a way to show force. If you have a robbery going on and the Sheriff's office shows up with an MRAP, criminals are much more likely to put down their weapons and not engage them than if they showed up in patrol cars and regular uniforms with handguns. Also, big city departments like NY, LA, DC, etc do need this type of equipment due to the threats they deal with. I do think it is a little far reaching for small town departments to issue their officers long guns to have as backup weapons in their cruisers. I really don't see how that would increase officer safety enough to justify the damage it does to the department from the community.

This is true, but I've heard (through news interviews and documentary films) that often the departments are required to use their equipment within a year, every year, in order to keep it. For big cities like the ones you called out, this isn't a problem and probably is needed, but for the smaller departments who might only need it once or twice a decade (at most) this only encourages full SWAT raids to nab low-level non-violent offenders and really helps to damage their (the police's) reputation in the process. This rider does not encourage responsibility or self-limitations on the use of the equipment. While I think a better use would be melting down said equipment for scrap, if they do want to provide local PDs with it, the "must use" riders need to be removed.

I don't know about that but I wouldn't doubt that they exist. More often than not though it's really a matter of the cops wanting to "take out the toys" in my assessment.

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AlienTwo

 

 

I would agree that there is an over militarization of many departments. However it's important to consider the factors at play here. As Alien pointed out this is not due to departments blowing budgets on it but rather the DOD transferring equipment to DHS who in turn gives it to local PDs in the form of grants.

 

While I think it does hurt community policing efforts to have such heavy equipment, it can be a good thing if used responsibly and to a limit. For example many smaller departments and sheriff's departments make use of the MRAPs as a way to almost immediately defuse an active shooter situation, robbery, etc as a way to show force. If you have a robbery going on and the Sheriff's office shows up with an MRAP, criminals are much more likely to put down their weapons and not engage them than if they showed up in patrol cars and regular uniforms with handguns. Also, big city departments like NY, LA, DC, etc do need this type of equipment due to the threats they deal with. I do think it is a little far reaching for small town departments to issue their officers long guns to have as backup weapons in their cruisers. I really don't see how that would increase officer safety enough to justify the damage it does to the department from the community.

This is true, but I've heard (through news interviews and documentary films) that often the departments are required to use their equipment within a year, every year, in order to keep it. For big cities like the ones you called out, this isn't a problem and probably is needed, but for the smaller departments who might only need it once or twice a decade (at most) this only encourages full SWAT raids to nab low-level non-violent offenders and really helps to damage their (the police's) reputation in the process. This rider does not encourage responsibility or self-limitations on the use of the equipment. While I think a better use would be melting down said equipment for scrap, if they do want to provide local PDs with it, the "must use" riders need to be removed.

I don't know about that but I wouldn't doubt that they exist. More often than not though it's really a matter of the cops wanting to "take out the toys" in my assessment.

 

I'm going to search for the videos where police talk about the "Use it or Loose it" policy... I think VICE...

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turbocharger

We need those over here, primarily to regulate jaywalking and littering. One of few good things about Yugoslavia were the police. Nowadays, everybody does whatever the f*ck they want.

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Vangelo

I know a guy on facebook who constantly does nothing but post stuff along the lines of "One cop shot Michael Brown so let's shoot forty of them" or something to that effect. Then he says that the cops shouldn't have assault rifles and grenade launchers. I'm not sure what a cop's going to do with a grenade launcher, but assault rifles make sense because in this day and age, anyone can get a hold of them.

 

But yeah, for back to the point, I wouldn't say they're becoming "militarized", but rather they're getting better equipment, as Alien said above. That and, with my statement above, I don't know who would be against cops having assault rifles when anyone can get them these days. But with all this new equipment, new training should be brought in place. You don't just give a kid a bike and expect the kid to learn how to ride it him/herself, much like how you don't give cops all this equipment and say "go defend the neighborhood, have fun".

I'm pretty sure no cops carry grenanade launchers or are even authorized to use them. I know they can use riot guns to launch tear gas and bean bag rounds but never grenades

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universetwisters

 

I know a guy on facebook who constantly does nothing but post stuff along the lines of "One cop shot Michael Brown so let's shoot forty of them" or something to that effect. Then he says that the cops shouldn't have assault rifles and grenade launchers. I'm not sure what a cop's going to do with a grenade launcher, but assault rifles make sense because in this day and age, anyone can get a hold of them.

 

But yeah, for back to the point, I wouldn't say they're becoming "militarized", but rather they're getting better equipment, as Alien said above. That and, with my statement above, I don't know who would be against cops having assault rifles when anyone can get them these days. But with all this new equipment, new training should be brought in place. You don't just give a kid a bike and expect the kid to learn how to ride it him/herself, much like how you don't give cops all this equipment and say "go defend the neighborhood, have fun".

I'm pretty sure no cops carry grenanade launchers or are even authorized to use them. I know they can use riot guns to launch tear gas and bean bag rounds but never grenades

 

 

Exactly, no cops have any grenades other than tear gas if you count that as a grenade. But then again, with people like these, you know for a fact they're gonna misinform you just to prove their fallible points.

 

LPYvN.jpg

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G's Ah's

article-1322123-0BAE46FF000005DC-71_634x

 

These are riot police in France. Looks to me like the US has actually caught up with the rest of the world in actually preparing its troops for riot situations.

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sivispacem

Isn't most riot policing in France done by the National Gendarmerie, who are actually a military force rather than a police one anyway?

 

-

 

On second glance, they've got the Gendarmerie badge on their hats so are indeed military.

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G's Ah's

Two forces apparently. There's the Gendarmerie Mobile as pictured and the CRS, which is the riot police force of the French National Police. They're apparently being merged which means it's going to become one single force in the future.

 

I've seen these guys in full riot gear and you do not want to f*ck with them.

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Vangelo

Two forces apparently. There's the Gendarmerie Mobile as pictured and the CRS, which is the riot police force of the French National Police. They're apparently being merged which means it's going to become one single force in the future.

 

I've seen these guys in full riot gear and you do not want to f*ck with them.

 

That's the entire point. Riots are illegal for a reason.... They cause huge problems and people get hurt not by the police but by eachother. Property is also heavily destroyed. The cops are there to end them because who else is gonna do it. They need the gear otherwise the rioters would shred them to pieces.

 

 

Universtwisters, that guy just seems like an incompetent load of sh*t. His picture is of him smoking, like that's really cool. The thing is is that he can keep posting that but none of it matters because he is so damn low that nobody cares what he thinks. He most likely thinks babies come from Walmart too.

Edited by Vangelo

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AlienTwo

article-1322123-0BAE46FF000005DC-71_634x

 

These are riot police in France. Looks to me like the US has actually caught up with the rest of the world in actually preparing its troops for riot situations.

No matter what, the police are not military and should never be. The training given to police and soldiers should be nearly incomparable for this simple reason; The Police are there to preserve the peace, enforce laws and protect citizens where the military is there to kill the enemies of the state.

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sivispacem

Alien- those are Gendarmeries. They are military; operationally part of the interior ministry but administratively part of the French armed forces, headed by a General. Gendarmeries are fairly commonplace in Europe, in practical terms they are best described as paramilitary groups. They split their work between policing activity, generally with a focus on the morr specialist elements of policing, and providing security and direct assistance to the armed forces. Though that's not always the case, as the Italian Carabinieri do much of the general policing too.

 

The distinction between the roles of military and police in the rest of the world is not nearly as clear as it seems to be in the US.

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AlienTwo

Alien- those are Gendarmeries. They are military; operationally part of the interior ministry but administratively part of the French armed forces, headed by a General. Gendarmeries are fairly commonplace in Europe, in practical terms they are best described as paramilitary groups. They split their work between policing activity, generally with a focus on the morr specialist elements of policing, and providing security and direct assistance to the armed forces. Though that's not always the case, as the Italian Carabinieri do much of the general policing too.

 

The distinction between the roles of military and police in the rest of the world is not nearly as clear as it seems to be in the US.

I figured. I have had some experience with the Italian national police (maybe I should say knowledge as I spent a few months studying in Rome but never got in trouble) and see that also in South America, police are highly militarized. I meant my "No matter what, the police are not military and should never be" comment to be specific to the US as it seems that culturally (possibly due to a high level of xenophobia), the police over hear can't handle any level of militarization without abusing the power and citizenry they are supposed to protect. Case in point, the article below... it seems like just police brutality, but it speaks to the larger problem, the officers act like soldiers encountering an enemy combatant rather than police approaching a citizen (in this case the man was not a citizen, but still, we are not at war and there isn't much of a reason for the cops to react in such a way).

 

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2015/02/indian_citizen_stopped_by_madi.html

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Dingdongs

I think that goes too far though Alien. You need to remember that cops carry guns and have the authority to take peoples' rights away. That is not a tiny miniscule thing. You need some level of paramilitary cohesion in any department or agency. And with regard to the actual equipment, some units need the equipment end of story. I told you I don't agree with your regular beat cop carrying a long gun buy SRT officers and the like need that type of equipment for when a situation arises.

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Vangelo

Alien, do you think there are circumstances that the police should use heavy weapons like long rifles and or bigger equipment or should they never use them? Should the national guard be called in to handle the bigger situations like hostage situations and active shootings?

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universetwisters

Should the national guard be called in to handle the bigger situations like hostage situations and active shootings?

But wouldn't a well equipped SWAT team get there faster than waiting for what are basically army reserves to meet up, get equipped, and drive to wherever they have to go to deal with the situation?

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don ovdi' island

This is something that really grinds my gears. Police militarization, however no police intervention. I remember when i went to jail, i rode in the back of the cruiser inside the compound. as i rode into the razor wire fences, i see over 50+ International, military style trucks lined up one by one with the shiniest of paint jobs and lights mounted in every crevice. What in the god damn hell do they need that for? I see police walk around with bulletproof vests, hand on their holsters constantly. Brand new cruisers every two years. they dont even drive Crown Vics anymore, all Tahoes, Explorers, Caprices, and Tauruses. But they dont protect the citizens ! The cops are more worried about a Chinese invasion than actually protecting the citizens.

 

Oh, but its funny how we have no tax dollars to fix our sinking (read: sunk) roads, some potholes literally more like sinkholes, some parts of the city are completely dark, no lightbulbs in the lights, no guardrails on highway on-ramps because they've all been stolen for scrap metal, tons of abandoned city owned property, people robbed in broad daylight, murdered at night, and abducted on their way home from school. Every day i read about another school girl or nurse raped in the early morning or evening. The cops have the tools and equipment on par with the military, all the guns and brand new cruisers every year... and yet it is not safe to walk the street in the god damn daylight because they're too busy f*cking hookers in hotel rooms, harassing people for menial things, or sleeping in their cruisers. Some people really think i'm exaggerating, and stick up for these assholes. Until I see a complete overhaul of the police force I have no respect for those little dick punks.

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AlienTwo

Alien, do you think there are circumstances that the police should use heavy weapons like long rifles and or bigger equipment or should they never use them? Should the national guard be called in to handle the bigger situations like hostage situations and active shootings?

There are exceptions to every rule, so I answer that I do, and that is why all counties and larger departments should maintain the SWAT teams (Special Weapons Special Tactics), but not at the current levels. SWAT teams should only be used when dealing with violent offenders, using SWAT to go after immigration issues, small-time drug operations etc. where the risk vs reward is not in any way sitting in favor of the suspect running or fighting is asking for trouble, and you get children, old people and other innocents psychologically damaged (continuing to propagate a "us vs them" mentality... how would you feel about the police if your house was severely damaged, you dogs killed and you held at gunpoint because your brother liked to grow/sell weed?) and in the worse cases injured or killed when it could have easily been avoided.

 

It doesn't make sense for a small town to have an armored vehicle, grenade launchers (it was discusses previously, but they ARE given as surplus to these departments... what business the cops have with a grenade launcher is beyond me) or enough assault rifles to fend off a small invasion. That's where the county would step in, to supplement the smaller departments.

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sivispacem

The "grenade launcher" thing is a bit misleading as they're not really military weapons, firing "grenades", or at all worrisome, given that without explosive or incendiary grenades they're exactly the same as existing less-lethal launchers.

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Dingdongs

 

Alien, do you think there are circumstances that the police should use heavy weapons like long rifles and or bigger equipment or should they never use them? Should the national guard be called in to handle the bigger situations like hostage situations and active shootings?

There are exceptions to every rule, so I answer that I do, and that is why all counties and larger departments should maintain the SWAT teams (Special Weapons Special Tactics), but not at the current levels. SWAT teams should only be used when dealing with violent offenders, using SWAT to go after immigration issues, small-time drug operations etc. where the risk vs reward is not in any way sitting in favor of the suspect running or fighting is asking for trouble, and you get children, old people and other innocents psychologically damaged (continuing to propagate a "us vs them" mentality... how would you feel about the police if your house was severely damaged, you dogs killed and you held at gunpoint because your brother liked to grow/sell weed?) and in the worse cases injured or killed when it could have easily been avoided.

 

It doesn't make sense for a small town to have an armored vehicle, grenade launchers (it was discusses previously, but they ARE given as surplus to these departments... what business the cops have with a grenade launcher is beyond me) or enough assault rifles to fend off a small invasion. That's where the county would step in, to supplement the smaller departments.

I've detailed some reasons why it is actually quite beneficial and leads to less violence in the long run due to having armored vehicles above, even in the small towns. I don't agree with arming them or having your average cop walking a beat carrying an AR15.

 

As for SWAT teams, unfortunately you need to understand what a SWAT team is for. Cops and agents are going to call in SRT if there is a chance that the warrant they are serving is going to get ugly. Some agencies like ATF and certain groups in HSI/FBI will go in without a SWAT team because their average agents are trained on par with SWAT operators and know what they're doing without needing a team. More often than not, especially at the local level, a team is necessary for officer safety. Your beat cop and detective don't get twice-yearly qualifications on entry tactics in most departments, and depending on what group they're in they may never get it except for when they were in the academy. Of course detectives on the warrants squads for example would have that training, but more often than not, a SWAT team is necessary for almost any entry carried out except for if the suspect is truly not though to be remotely vilent.

Edited by Irviding

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Vangelo

Most small towns in the U.S. Or at least my city don't have easy access to SWAT. My department doesn't even carry the rank of detective. They have an investigations desk but that's it so the officers complete every warrant themselves. In these cases they can wait the 10 days and try to get a SWAT team from one of the bigger cities but it's much faster to do It themselves so they can continue their normal tasks.

 

Dreadluxx, What are you trying to get at with that. If you think that cops should go back to driving cheap piece of sh*t cars then how will they stop a brand new sports car that's carrying an entire group of armed criminals shooting up the town. If you think officers shouldn't be on the ready 100% at a prison the what are they gonna do when somebody makes a jump for it. I hear so much from people about how cops just generally suck because of their cars and all the guns they have but what are they supposed to do? There are so many reasons that these officers do use the things they use. I'm not saying every officer is perfect because I know there are a lot of officers that do abuse it but I'd say a majority use their equipment in a very professional manor.

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don ovdi' island

Dreadluxx, What are you trying to get at with that. If you think that cops should go back to driving cheap piece of sh*t cars then how will they stop a brand new sports car that's carrying an entire group of armed criminals shooting up the town. If you think officers shouldn't be on the ready 100% at a prison the what are they gonna do when somebody makes a jump for it. I hear so much from people about how cops just generally suck because of their cars and all the guns they have but what are they supposed to do? There are so many reasons that these officers do use the things they use. I'm not saying every officer is perfect because I know there are a lot of officers that do abuse it but I'd say a majority use their equipment in a very professional manor.

 

obviously you didnt read my post. I wouldn't have such a problem with it if the police could oh, i dont know, actually cut down on the violent crime. Its worse than ever out here and police dont do anything but sit in their shiny little cars and waste our money burning gas or f*cking hookers with our dime.

 

btw: I dont really think it's necessary to get a whole new fleet of cars every 3 years. they retire the crown vics at 70K miles when those cars have been proven to go 3-4 times longer than that when well maintained.

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sivispacem

I wouldn't have such a problem with it if the police could oh, i dont know, actually cut down on the violent crime. Its worse than ever out here

Is it? I was of the belief that violent crime was falling fairly substantially in the US. I mean of course, there's debate to be had on the accuracy of the statistics and all that jazz but, based on the available evidence, violent crime is decreasing, even though strangely people's perceptions of it might be increasing. That's an issue of people being poor at differentiating between anecdote and evidence.

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Vangelo

I personally do not really know if crime rates are going down. My city was voted the second safest city in the state so I guess I. Just used to not living around crime all the time.

 

Drealuxx if you don't mind me asking where are you from? I'd say crime rates are different in ever state but if you really look at the overall rate it would most likely show it going down. Just look at what it was like during the prohibition. You seriously can't say that crime rates have gone up since then

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Dingdongs

The crime rate is down nationwide but in many areas it is up or even exponentially higher than before. For example the crime rate nationwide started to go down after the end of the crack epidemic and when you had cities like NY instituting different policing policies. But at the same time Detroit and Chicago became much worse and are basically war zones right now in certain parts.

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