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BRITLAND

UK Politics & Current Affairs Discussion Thread

Recommended Posts

BRITLAND

In a game of turn-Britain-into-a-toilet top trumps, Labour-SNP-Plaid-UKIP beats all.

Any coalitions livable in your opinion Sivis?

 

Surely the yesterday rumored (but prob impossible) coalition of Labour/SNP/Plaid/Sinn Finn would be far worse for the UK? Or the Tory/UKIP/DUP/UUP toilet recipe?

Edited by BRITLAND

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Captain VXR

If there is a Tory/UKIP/DUP/UUP coalition I will endeavour to leave the UK as soon as I graduate from uni. That would be a complete nightmare scenario that appeals only to 65 year old plus Daily Mail readers.

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sivispacem

Lib-Lab might be fine as long as it involves a Lib Dem dominated economic policy. I don't mind another Lib-Con coalition as long as that means we don't get the idiotic blanket proposal to backdoor all communication applications. Most other alternatives are a bit sh*t.

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BRITLAND

I forgot about this, similar to Greece... What about a...

 

UKIP/BNP Coalition!!!

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SIKKS66

If there is a Tory/UKIP/DUP/UUP coalition I will endeavour to leave the UK as soon as I graduate from uni. That would be a complete nightmare scenario that appeals only to 65 year old plus Daily Mail readers.

 

And fans of unintentional comedy.

 

Would be only a matter of time before we see Lord Clarkson of Chipping Norton*.

 

*I exaggerate for effect.

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Irviding

Lib-Lab might be fine as long as it involves a Lib Dem dominated economic policy. I don't mind another Lib-Con coalition as long as that means we don't get the idiotic blanket proposal to backdoor all communication applications. Most other alternatives are a bit sh*t.

Is there a marked difference between Lib Dem and Labour's economics?

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Captain VXR

 

Lib-Lab might be fine as long as it involves a Lib Dem dominated economic policy. I don't mind another Lib-Con coalition as long as that means we don't get the idiotic blanket proposal to backdoor all communication applications. Most other alternatives are a bit sh*t.

Is there a marked difference between Lib Dem and Labour's economics?

 

The Lib Dems are to the right of Labour economically and have been for a few years.

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sivispacem

 

 

Lib-Lab might be fine as long as it involves a Lib Dem dominated economic policy. I don't mind another Lib-Con coalition as long as that means we don't get the idiotic blanket proposal to backdoor all communication applications. Most other alternatives are a bit sh*t.

Is there a marked difference between Lib Dem and Labour's economics?

 

The Lib Dems are to the right of Labour economically and have been for a few years.

 

This, basically. The economic model they aspire to is a bit Nordic Capitalism, whereas Labour's economic policy is basically dictated by whichever militant voices in the TUC shout the loudest at any given time.

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Absurdity

UKIP/BNP Coalition!!!

 

The BNP are for big authoritarian government - anti-immigrant - anti free market - they're collectivists - they're economically left.
UKIP are for economic freedom from government- they're for smaller decentralized government - a free market capitalist economy - free trade , and controlled immigration based on a work permit system - they're individualists on the economic right.
It's economics that take priority over policy as its the health of your countries economy that dictates your freedom to make policies.
The BNP and UKIP could not be anymore opposite. The BNP are far closer to Lab/Lib and the 'neo'...conservatives. There are ex BNP members in the Labour party currently.
In the UK the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer as a result of corporatism- corporatism is collectivism/ socialism. It's the co-operation of big governments and corporations and it's a direct result of big authoritarian governments who favour the economic rich. As a result the banks and corporations have become so big and powerful that they can simply lobby the government for restrictions to smaller business so that they can consume all the wealth for themselves, keep their profits and socialise all of their losses on to you and I.
These are the same corporations that pawn the notion off on to you that UKIP are in anyway comparable to the BNP.
Edited by Rusty Balls

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sivispacem

corporatism is collectivism/ socialism.

I really don't think you understand what Corporatism actually is. It's simply the principle of society being organised on the basis of groups of individuals with common interests. "Corporatism" and "Corporations" are not interchangeable terms; the former doesn't even refer to the latter in meaning. Corporatism is neither left or right in political spectrum; it's a component part of pretty much every economic model in existence.

 

Or were you actually referring to economic tripartism? In which case the notion that it is responsible for the disparity between rich and poor in the UK is fundamentally flawed, as states that have tended to practice it as part of general economic policy (I.E the Nordic model states and Social Market Economies and Rhine Capitalists like Germany and Switzerland) have an abnormally high parity between rich and poor; indeed, it's the nations practicing the most traditional laissez-faire Capitalism which tend to have the highest income and wealth disparity. Case in point- the United States.

 

-

 

It's quite amusing you think that the snubbing of UKIP by the business world is some kind of conspiracy to scupper their brand of economic individualism and American-style Libertarianism as opposed to simply a pragmatic response to sh*t policy. I mean, UKIP don't actually have a coherent economic policy to speak of and the mooted ideas around taxation are anything but Libertarian or individualist, so I struggle to grasp where you could have garnered the idea that they're advocates for "proper" free-market Capitalism.

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Captain VXR

^^^Nigel Farage is loved by Faux News, Russian propaganda Today and Alex Jones if I remember correctly. That would be reason enough for tin foil hat hard-line right wing Americans to love UKIP and everything they stand for. UKIP pretending to be libertarian is hilarious as they have pretty much nothing in common with the likes of Gary Johnson when it comes to social issues. Furthermore, any UKIP claim to support 'free markets' is laughable, as that would require free movement of labour.

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BRITLAND

 

 

UKIP/BNP Coalition!!!

The BNP are for big authoritarian government - anti-immigrant - anti free market - they're collectivists - they're economically left.

 

UKIP are for economic freedom from government- they're for smaller decentralized government - a free market capitalist economy - free trade , and controlled immigration based on a work permit system - they're individualists on the economic right.

 

It's economics that take priority over policy as its the health of your countries economy that dictates your freedom to make policies.

 

The BNP and UKIP could not be anymore opposite. The BNP are far closer to Lab/Lib and the 'neo'...conservatives. There are ex BNP members in the Labour party currently.

 

In the UK the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer as a result of corporatism- corporatism is collectivism/ socialism. It's the co-operation of big governments and corporations and it's a direct result of big authoritarian governments who favour the economic rich. As a result the banks and corporations have become so big and powerful that they can simply lobby the government for restrictions to smaller business so that they can consume all the wealth for themselves, keep their profits and socialise all of their losses on to you and I.

 

These are the same corporations that pawn the notion off on to you that UKIP are in anyway comparable to the BNP.

I assume you haven't seen the election in Greece recently, that's where this came to mind.

 

I saw a poll recently that Nick Clegg is to lose his seat in Shefield in May! Looks like Tim Farron will be the new Lib Dem leader come May

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Clem Fandango

 

corporatism is collectivism/ socialism.

I really don't think you understand what Corporatism actually is. It's simply the principle of society being organised on the basis of groups of individuals with common interests. "Corporatism" and "Corporations" are not interchangeable terms; the former doesn't even refer to the latter in meaning. Corporatism is neither left or right in political spectrum; it's a component part of pretty much every economic model in existence.

 

Or were you actually referring to economic tripartism? In which case the notion that it is responsible for the disparity between rich and poor in the UK is fundamentally flawed, as states that have tended to practice it as part of general economic policy (I.E the Nordic model states and Social Market Economies and Rhine Capitalists like Germany and Switzerland) have an abnormally high parity between rich and poor; indeed, it's the nations practicing the most traditional laissez-faire Capitalism which tend to have the highest income and wealth disparity. Case in point- the United States.

 

-

 

It's quite amusing you think that the snubbing of UKIP by the business world is some kind of conspiracy to scupper their brand of economic individualism and American-style Libertarianism as opposed to simply a pragmatic response to sh*t policy. I mean, UKIP don't actually have a coherent economic policy to speak of and the mooted ideas around taxation are anything but Libertarian or individualist, so I struggle to grasp where you could have garnered the idea that they're advocates for "proper" free-market Capitalism.

 

He thinks the relationship between government and commercial power is a form of socialism.

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sivispacem

Words fail me.

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Absurdity
Corporatism is a collectivist/socialist ideology. Alexander Hamilton, who introduced corporatism, was he himself, a socialist.


In corporatism when our banks make a loss, government steps in and provides bailouts. The taxpayer is then, by government coercion, taxed to make up the difference. Corporatism in other words is capitalising on all the gains, and socialising all the losses. When you hear people outcry that we have a system of socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor - they're very correct here.


Corporatism is simply a way for government centralisation, and government intervention without actually owning the means of production.


Furthermore this corporatist model would be in favour of cosmopolitan homogeneity - as oppose to national sovereignty - as it's far easier to do business with a single ruling European commission. This explains the current establishments stance on mass immigration - as with uncontrolled immigration it becomes difficult to plan resources realistically as it's nigh impossible to predict birthrates/mortalityrates ect. Difficult to a point where the only realistically viable model to take on is that of a more globalist one. -- Hence the demonisation of UKIP's controlled immigration policy as being in some way a racist one.

Edited by Rusty Balls

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sivispacem

Corporatism is a collectivist/socialist ideology

I'm loathe to repeat myself, but no it isn't. Saying something enough times will not make it true.

 

 

Alexander Hamilton, who introduced corporatism, was he himself, a socialist.

Again, wrong. Corporatist theory predates Alexander Hamilton by the best part of a millenium, given that what is now referred to as Christian Corporatism was employed by the Catholic Church for the purposes of sponsoring and maintaining relations between different segments of society during the Crusades. Then there's the corporatism of the Renaissance period, with the establishment of the politically powerful guild system.

 

What's more, you're also wrong about Alexander Hamilton being a socialist. As a member of the American Federalist party he was a Classical liberal in the mould of John Locke. Socialism didn't exist as a socioeconomic movement until some thirty years after Hamilton's death. Where on earth are you getting this nonsense from?

 

 

In corporatism when our banks make a loss, government steps in and provides bailouts.

That's not corporatism, it's just economic interventionism characteristic of mixed economies such as those based on the Austrian school. Many economic systems that promote mixed economies, economic interventionism and Austrian or Keynesian derived economic theory are socially corporate, but that's because, aside from a handful of outliers, so is pretty much every coherent school of socioeconomic thought.

 

 

The taxpayer is then, by government coercion, taxed to make up the difference. Corporatism in other words is capitalising on all the gains, and socialising all the losses.

This has absolutely nothing to do with corporatism.

 

 

Corporatism is simply a way for government centralisation, and government intervention without actually owning the means of production.

No, corporatism is the sociopolitical structuring of society into groups of individuals with aligned common interests. I have absolutely no f*cking idea where you've managed to find your definition of corporatism but it's utter tripe.

 

The rest of your post is utterly incoherent, but this stood out particularly to me:

 

 

it's nigh impossible to predict birthrates/mortalityrates ect.

That's so clearly utter bunk that it borders on the hilarious. Dynamic mathematical modelling of human population over the short-to-medium term is remarkably accurate. Longer term we still don't know, but as a mathematical doctrine it's fairy new so that goes some way to explaining this.

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Irviding

Hamilton being called a socialist is pretty much standard libertarian talking point Sivis. He wanted a stronger federal role in the economy, you know like having a central bank and collecting taxes as opposed to Jefferson's camp that wanted the federal government to consist of 5 employees, those 5 being the President's cabinet. Unfortunately libertarian economic policy is so extreme that Hamilton's ideas are considered socialist by them.

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Clem Fandango

So this guy is a UKIP supporter, a libertarian, and an MRA. I think I saw his picture in the dictionary next to the word "contrarian."

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Absurdity

I think I saw his picture in the dictionary next to the word "contrarian."

 

I beg to differ.

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sivispacem

So you're going to continue ignoring the laundry list of factual errors in your posts and yet still insist your views are sound, logical and not at all contrarian?

 

Right.

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Absurdity

No you can have this. That was a play on Melchiors post. Enjoy your victory on this day.

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BRITLAND

Any one see UKIP: The First 100 Days on Monday? Ofcom (British FCC) have got over a thousand complaints over it and C4 too. Ironically when UKIP get this type of publicity they see in increase of support in the polls.

 

Anyway found a video of Farage doing hip hop, any one unsure on who he is can learn everything about him :D

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFk9KEOYlnw

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sivispacem

In all fairness she just got caught out doing what all the parties- especially the smaller ones without the backing of a small army of statisticians- do; making ridiculous uncosted pledges that there's no feasible way they'll be able to follow up on. Still, quite entertaining in a cringe-worthy way.

I had the misfortune of going to Brighton recently. I was utterly flabbergasted by the complete pig's ear they've made of basically everything in the city. The road network effectively doesn't function anymore. Their crowning glory seems to have been placing black plastic wheelie bins filled with plants at random intervals along narrow residential roads, making it basically impossible for delivery vehicles to navigate and generally creating a huge amount of inconvenience.

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Irviding

making it basically impossible for delivery vehicles to navigate and generally creating a huge amount of inconvenience.

So then she and her party were successful, because that will limit large delivery vehicles from getting around and thus reduce emissions, a la "Green Party".

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Clem Fandango

Not sure how anyone can rag on the Greens. "We want to ensure the continued habitability of our planet" seems like a much stronger party platform than "we'll kick all the foreigners out", "we probably won't dismantle the NHS" and "we kinda support the unions, only not really."

Edited by Melchior

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Irviding

How about dismantling the entire British military and intelligence services which is their big thing? Or expanding welfare to a ridiculous and unaffordable level? I mean come on they are just as ridiculous and unsustainable in their policies as UKIP.

Edited by Irviding

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sivispacem

"We want to ensure the continued habitability of our planet"

I'll rag on the greens until the cows come home because, as noble as this ideological cause sounds, their policy ideas to achieve this are largely complete tripe, based on finger-in-the-air guesswork and really designed simply to pander to people of a certain persuasion. Hence the complete lack of any support for them from the scientific community.

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Svip

Let me ask then, Señor Sivispacem, what party does the scientific community endorse?

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