UK Politics & Current Affairs Discussion & DIY Home Improvement Thread

[Clem Fandango]

I've literally never seen a discussion of anti-semitism outside of left wing spaces.

[sivispacem]

Labour does have a problem with antisemitism; that's pretty plain to see. Corbyn's claims that it's all a complete non-issue reinforce that. Over the last year we've seen something like a dozen scandals of varying sizes involving antisemitism and Labour representatives. I wouldn't go as far as to say that there's a wider issue on the left with antisemitism though.

 

The specific comments Ken Livingstone made are absolutely idiotic. His continued defence of them is even more laughable, given the fact they have no basis in reality. If he isn't ejected from the Labour party after this debacle, they can probably kiss goodbye the idea of them being seen as socially inclusive for the next generation. A party which failed to reprimand a Nazi apologist and historical revisionist should quite rightly be a laughing stock.

[Uncle Sikee Atric]

What has hit the Labour Party is simple.... It is the effect that every Opposition has had for decades. "Who the hell will we need to back to get us into power again?"

 

The Tories had the problem when Blair was PM and now his 'style of Lying, sorry, Leadership' has been denfuncted, they need a strong character to replace him, with the necessary traits to unify the factions and gain the support of the grassroots membership. Have they got that with Corbyn, hell no!

 

So the factions have taken to infighting and posturing to get the required effect and the 'smearing' of Naz Shah has been the first effect of this campaign. Did she say the wrong things and put her foot in it? Yup, but she wasn't an MP at the time. She's guilty of not tidying her archived social networking and removing the necessary. Yet the factions will tear at anything to remove a threat, (Shah was tipped as an up and comer who had a bright future and a chance at a 'Junior Shadow' post in the inevitable reshuffles). Any fast riser is seen as a potential senior member so she would have needed a faction, or create her own....

 

Red Kens' gaffe was to back Shah and he has become a major scalp that the opposing factions wanted. Will he rise from this mess, I doubt it....

 

This mess couldn't have come at a worse time really, it shows how weak Labour are as they go into the Local Elections. They are going to get slaughtered!

Edited May 1, 2016 by Sikee Atric

[GTA_stu]

I think you're understating and overlooking her comments quite a bit there. She wanted to deport the Jews out of Israel. Can you imagine the backlash if an MP said that x group of people should be deported from the UK? Ken wouldn't have been so quick to defend someone then I'm sure. "The Jews are rallying" I mean come on. The fact she posted this stuff before she was MP isn't relevant, considering she's been in the job less than a year and it was less than 2 years ago that this happened. It's not like it was ages ago and deep in her history.

 

Labour have barely said one thing right so far, they keep denying everything and playing the victim card. Now Diane Abbot is saying it's all a smear. Even the senior leadership doesn't seem unified, unless Corbyn actually wanted her to come out and say that. Which wouldn't actually surprise me. The whole party is a f*cking shambles.

[Uncle Sikee Atric]

I think you're understating and overlooking her comments quite a bit there. She wanted to deport the Jews out of Israel. Can you imagine the backlash if an MP said that x group of people should be deported from the UK? Ken wouldn't have been so quick to defend someone then I'm sure. "The Jews are rallying" I mean come on. The fact she posted this stuff before she was MP isn't relevant, considering she's been in the job less than a year and it was less than 2 years ago that this happened. It's not like it was ages ago and deep in her history.

 

Labour have barely said one thing right so far, they keep denying everything and playing the victim card. Now Diane Abbot is saying it's all a smear. Even the senior leadership doesn't seem unified, unless Corbyn actually wanted her to come out and say that. Which wouldn't actually surprise me. The whole party is a f*cking shambles.

 

I'm not doubting what she said, nor supporting. It was wrong and shouldn't have been there in the first place.

 

The discussion is what Labour has done since the problems arose, and you're right, they've not done enough, either to snuff it out, or appear united and strong.

 

The fighting has only just begun and the 'report and review' Corbyn has ordered is going to solve nothing. Labour is staring over the edge at the moment and the only winners are the Tories, since they dealt with the Liberals and now have a clear run at weakening UKIP. (Which wouldn't be difficult if UKIP was forced to air it's skeletons.)

[Clem Fandango]

lol imagine Democrat or ALP officials making those kind of remarks? Where did this come from?

[GTA_stu]

lol imagine Democrat or ALP officials making those kind of remarks? Where did this come from?

 

It's because Labour, and Corbyn's faction in particular, along with many other left wing parties in Europe, are quite staunchly pro Palestine and they actively court the Muslim vote.

[Smith John]

lol imagine Democrat or ALP officials making those kind of remarks? Where did this come from?

It's called 'Being a Labour Politician', where they don't know what the f*ck they want other than pandering to a minority-majority race of their constituency or providing false hope to the working and lower class. The party has been an astounding joke since their Miliband-led f*ckup last year, and it's only going to get worse...or even more entertaining, depending on your position.

 

Though I'll at least hand it to that dickhead, Red Ken - at least he stands by his moronic comments. Diane Abbott, however, can suck on a bullet.

[Abel.]

lol imagine Democrat or ALP officials making those kind of remarks? Where did this come from?

 

It's lunacy. I mean even ignoring how grossly offensive Livingstone's remarks are to Jews, just trivialising Hitler and the Nazis in this way is bound to shift the few working Labour areas away next week. He and his ilk are remarkably out of touch with the British worker and are more concerned with pushing an agenda.

 

I honestly feel bad for those in Labour who are decent and committed to British workers, but I feel that their voice is getting quieter by the day. I mean not everyone in the Labour party is like this but trouble has been brewing for years.

[GTA_stu]

So... you guys vote? I was intending to but something came up and threw my schedule off. So I never got round to it. The police crime commissioner is pointless and this is a safe Labour seat so it doesn't really bother me that I missed it. What does bother me is labelling today as "Super Thursday". Ugh.

[Svip]

So... you guys vote? I was intending to but something came up and threw my schedule off. So I never got round to it. The police crime commissioner is pointless and this is a safe Labour seat so it doesn't really bother me that I missed it. What does bother me is labelling today as "Super Thursday". Ugh.

Oh trust me, everything is getting Americanised. Back in March where three German Länder were voting, they called it 'Super Sunday'.

[sivispacem]

I voted.

 

PCC- Independent

Local councillor- Independent

 

For local elections, I always go for a local independent free from party political bollocks- in fact this year it was only the Green and Independent candidates who actually lived in the area which the local council seat covers. Plus the guy running as an independent this year is excellent.

 

Extremely surprised to see Labour getting further decimated in Scotland. and the SNP losing their majority. You'd have thought with Corbyn at the helm and a stronger push for more traditionally socialist policies, there would be an uptick in interest in Scotland.

[Abel.]

Yeah I voted Independent for the Police and Crime Commissioner. Wasn't going to vote Labour this time around.

 

 

Shame Goldsmith's set to lose in London.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Failure

[Uncle Sikee Atric]

I voted as well.

 

Liberal PCC

Independent Councillor ( Only had a choice of him and a Labour Scrub)

[Morpheus72]

I used to vote for UKIP, but I couldn't bring myself to support their economic policies this time round: typical dogmatic Thatcherites on economics and far too liberal on social issues for me. I think a brutal, right-wing dictatorship is the only solution to the foul liberalism that has corrupted our society; we need a strong despot who is able to stamp down hard on the problems Britain currently faces (crime, drugs, unemployment; the vulgar, uncensored entertainment industry). The average British family man is being constantly intimidated and ridiculed by the media, the porn industry, the entertainment industry; he knows his way of life has been devalued. His anger and alienation are directed at the wrong things (immigration, political correctness, etc) because, in the current political climate, there are no politicians willing to stand up and give him a voice. No one is willing to tell the truth about the economy, the EU, and the loss of traditional values. It's a very dangerous situation to have in the long run. A decade or two of an oppressive, tyrannical government could solve most of our problems relatively quickly; either it'll work or the masses will rise up, tear the whole thing down and replace it with something better.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Morpheus72

[Fonz]

Hmm, have you heard of Oswald Mosley? Sounds like he'd be your man.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Black_MiD

[Uncle Sikee Atric]

I used to vote for UKIP, but I couldn't bring myself to support their economic policies this time round: typical dogmatic Thatcherites on economics and far too liberal on social issues for me. I think a brutal, right-wing dictatorship is the only solution to the foul liberalism that has corrupted our society; we need a strong despot who is able to stamp down hard on the problems Britain currently faces (crime, drugs, unemployment; the vulgar, uncensored entertainment industry). The average British family man is being constantly intimidated and ridiculed by the media, the porn industry, the entertainment industry; he knows his way of life has been devalued. His anger and alienation are directed at the wrong things (immigration, political correctness, etc) because, in the current political climate, there are no politicians willing to stand up and give him a voice. No one is willing to tell the truth about the economy, the EU, and the loss of traditional values. It's a very dangerous situation to have in the long run. A decade or two of an oppressive, tyrannical government could solve most of our problems relatively quickly; either it'll work or the masses will rise up, tear the whole thing down and replace it with something better.

Is your real life name Viscount Rothmere? Famous for the infamous time of the Daily Mail during the 1930's....

 

Hooray for the Blackshirts!

[Clem Fandango]

Wasn't going to vote Labour this time around.

Because they hate Jews and you're concerned that the students' union (lmao) is now in control?

[Abel.]

No, I just think Corbyn is massively unrealistic and doesn't align with my political outlook. I don't want to give my support to a party which is led by him.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Failure

[Uncle Sikee Atric]

No, I just think Corbyn is massively unrealistic and doesn't align with my political outlook. I don't want to give my support to a party which is led by him.

Corbyn is 'Political Marmite'....

 

Personally, I welcome his fresh approach to being open about his own personal policies and the fact he is willing to be honest and spin free, but I don't like much else and there's no way in hell he will be PM.

[Abel.]

He's a genuine figure which is refreshing in this age of career politicians--I struggle to even remember the names of those who competed with him to be Labour leader--but he's an embodiment of the worst of the hard left in the UK.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Failure

[sivispacem]

I have a great deal of respect for Corbyn as a principled individual and politician of conscience. Sadly the views he expresses are a rehashing of the absolute worst of Labour's 1980s nosedive into complete irrelevance. And Labour's disastrous performance in the local elections and especially in Scotland reinforces the idea that that opinion isn't exactly unique to me.

 

What I am happy about is the resurgence, however small, of the Lib Dems under Tim Farron, who is about the most likable man in British politics. I genuinely hope Labour completely implodes in the next half-decade so we can see a more coherent and rational centrist opposition appear.

[Morpheus72]

Hmm, have you heard of Oswald Mosley? Sounds like he'd be your man.

 

Oh, I adore Oswald and Diana Mosley. It's a shame Sir Oswald used the word "fascism" to describe his ideology (fascism took different forms in different countries and Mosley's version was neither racist nor antisemitic, contrary to media lies we hear about him, written by people who have no idea what they're talking about and don't care to find the truth). Simply put, Mosley wanted to enact various socialist and Keynesian policies to create full employment and improve the lot of the average worker (90% of his supporters were manual labourers), while, unlike traditional socialists, he always affirmed the need for a culturally/intellectually developed aristocracy which would set an example to which the rest of society could aspire (in terms of manners, morals, education, culture, etc). These ideas seem radical today, but they weren't at the time (perhaps because the aristocracy of his day held itself to higher standards in regard to education/behaviour and didn't view its superiority only in monetary terms).

 

I have a great deal of respect for Corbyn as a principled individual and politician of conscience. Sadly the views he expresses are a rehashing of the absolute worst of Labour's 1980s nosedive into complete irrelevance. And Labour's disastrous performance in the local elections and especially in Scotland reinforces the idea that that opinion isn't exactly unique to me.

 

What I am happy about is the resurgence, however small, of the Lib Dems under Tim Farron, who is about the most likable man in British politics. I genuinely hope Labour completely implodes in the next half-decade so we can see a more coherent and rational centrist opposition appear.

 

I have a lot of respect for Corbyn too, although I think he's unelectable. Even if he did become Prime Minister, the reality of Corbyn could never live up to the dream of Corbyn. If Labour loses the next general election (as I'm pretty sure it will) his supporters need to regroup and start doing what the right has been very good at over the last few decades and that is to set up institutions/organisations that are able to influence government policy and shift it towards the centre.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Morpheus72

[Uncle Sikee Atric]

What I am happy about is the resurgence, however small, of the Lib Dems under Tim Farron, who is about the most likable man in British politics. I genuinely hope Labour completely implodes in the next half-decade so we can see a more coherent and rational centrist opposition appear.

I am pleased about the Lib Dems starting on the road back as well. Even Clegg knew what would happen under Coalition, the smaller party taking all the crap for the unpopular decisions made and the party got the resultant hammering.

 

It's will be interesting to see when (indeed, if) they get the office back at Westminster. I suspect they will, but by then the SNP will have totally destroyed it....

[sivispacem]

Mosley's version was neither racist

But Mosley himself unequivocally was, to the point of calling explicitly for the forced ejection of Caribbean immigrants from the UK. Plus there's the long-standing association with holocaust denier David Irving.

 

But the idea of a fascist authoritarian regime being able to sort out the problems of British society is patently ridiculous, bordering on the hilarious. The number of far right authoritarian regimes which have created long-lasting social and economic stability can be counted on the fingers of my left knee.

[Fonz]

Oh, I adore Oswald and Diana Mosley. It's a shame Sir Oswald used the word "fascism" to describe his ideology (fascism took different forms in different countries and Mosley's version was neither racist nor antisemitic, contrary to media lies we hear about him, written by people who have no idea what they're talking about and don't care to find the truth).

LOL. No. Mosley organized several antisemitic marches in the immediate postwar period, so much so that a group of antifascist Jews (the '43 Group) had to organize itself to beat down his marches, in which slogans like 'Kill all the Yids!" were shouted. Unless you're going to tell me this was a story made up by the ebil joos (and since you're a fascist I don't doubt that you could), I don't see how you can claim he wasn't a racist.

 

Simply put, Mosley wanted to enact various socialist and Keynesian policies to create full employment and improve the lot of the average worker

No, he didn't. He wanted to enact several corporatist policies to align the interests of the state with that of trade unions and workers, which is literally the definition of fascist economics as put forward by Mussolini. Fascism is not Keynesianism, and Keynesianism is not socialism. The guy was into National Syndicalism, for Christ's sake.

 

unlike traditional socialists, he always affirmed the need for a culturally/intellectually developed aristocracy which would set an example to which the rest of society could aspire (in terms of manners, morals, education, culture, etc).

Traditional socialists were major figures in education (see John Dewey) and argued against the obscurantism enforced by fascist states, which had actually imprisoned them, as is the case with well-known people like Gramsci. See Salazar's fascist regime, in which "education", to those who even had access to it, consisted almost solely in learning the names of the rivers, hills and valleys in the Iberian peninsula or Mussolini's Italy in which education was pretty much a declaration of love and devotion to the state, physically and spiritually. Mosley was very much in line with all this nonsense, so the idea that a fascist regime was going to somehow enlighten people, when all the history of fascist education is full pseudo-scientific garbage and anti-intellectualism, is pretty absurd.

 

These ideas seem radical today, but they weren't at the time (perhaps because the aristocracy of his day held itself to higher standards in regard to education/behaviour and didn't view its superiority only in monetary terms).

Those ideas seem 'radical' because very few people in the 21st century are insane enough to believe in one of the most pathetic, brutal and ridiculous philosophies ever put forward in politics.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Black_MiD

[Morpheus72]

 

Oh, I adore Oswald and Diana Mosley. It's a shame Sir Oswald used the word "fascism" to describe his ideology (fascism took different forms in different countries and Mosley's version was neither racist nor antisemitic, contrary to media lies we hear about him, written by people who have no idea what they're talking about and don't care to find the truth).

LOL. No. Mosley organized several antisemitic marches in the immediate postwar period, so much so that a group of antifascist Jews (the '43 Group) had to organize itself to beat down his marches, in which slogans like 'Kill all the Yids!" were shouted. Unless you're going to tell me this was a story made up by the ebil joos (and since you're a fascist I don't doubt that you could), I don't see how you can claim he wasn't a racist.

 

What a load of bloody rubbish. Antifascist jewish groups made violent, unprovoked attacks on the BUF during their meetings (the BUF slogan was 'we don't start fights, we finish them'), and Oswald responded by verbally attacking the jewish groups in question. Watch the David Frost interview with Oswald Mosley where he talks about this.

 

Are you able to quote him on saying 'kill all the Yids'? I've read his autobiography and 'The Alternative' and there's nothing racist or antisemitic in either of them. If it was one of his supporters screaming that, well so what? That doesn't mean he agreed with them. Lots of people (both left and right) shout stupid things during political speeches.

 

 

"He wanted to enact several corporatist policies to align the interests of the state with that of trade unions and workers, which is literally the definition of fascist economics as put forward by Mussolini. Fascism is not Keynesianism, and Keynesianism is not socialism. The guy was into National Syndicalism, for Christ's sake."

 

Are you really going to deny that some of his policies were to varying degrees both socialist and Keynesian (Oswald was a friend of Keynes and shared ideas with him by the way)? In your mind socialism and Keynesianism are good, well-meaning approaches to managing the economy, and you can't admit that a fascist (the modern day boogie man apparently), could share some of the same views. It's the same reason democratic socialists refuse to admit that the national socialists were socialists (as well as fascists… you can be both). If Oswald Mosley had said the earth revolves around the sun, would that suddenly become an evil fascist idea too?

 

If I'm being honest, my first post in this thread was written with tongue placed firmly in cheek; I've got no emotional investment in winning people over to "fascism". I would be interested in having a rational debate about the central tenets of Oswald Mosley's political philosophy (about how it worked in theory vs practice), but judging by your tone that's the last thing you want… so perhaps we should agree to disagree...

Edited May 12, 2016 by Morpheus72

[Fonz]

What a load of bloody rubbish. Antifascist jewish groups made violent, unprovoked attacks on the BUF during their meetings (the BUF slogan was 'we don't start fights, we finish them'), and Oswald responded by verbally attacking the jewish groups in question. Watch the David Frost interview with Oswald Mosley where he talks about this.

Attacks on fascists aren't "unprovoked" ever, much less when they're in response to fascist marches immediately after what was probably the most gruesome genocide in human history, all perpetrated by fascists and ultra anti-Semites. Does it surprise you that Jewish people would be revolted seeing pro-Nazi marches after the Holocaust (or ever, really)? What do you suppose would happen if you organized a Greater Serbian fascist march in Bosnia in the late 90s? In fact the'43 Group went way too soft on them. If you want more details, watch the interviews with the '43 Group and listen to their testimonies. Antifascism is self-defense.

 

Are you really going to deny that some of his policies were to varying degrees both socialist and Keynesian

 

As an actual socialist, please stop propagating this nonsense. No, you can't be a socialist (anti-capitalist) and a Keynesian (interventionist capitalist) at the same time and you most definitely can't be a fascist (i.e. a corporatist) and a socialist at the same time. Somehow I would have thought the mass murder of socialists in Spain, occupied Yugoslavia, France, Portugal, Italy and Germany would have made this clear, as well as the existence of major capitalists like Schindler in Germany. Fascist Spain was literally built on the ruins of revolutionary socialism.

 

Socialism isn't a set of policies, it's the expropriation of private property. It's incompatible with capitalism and that's the whole point, regardless of your ilk's appropriation of leftist rhetoric and imagery. Also, no, I don't have a positive opinion of Keynesianism (I'm a communist). Unless you support social ownership of the means of production, we definitely don't share any views.

 

It's the same reason democratic socialists refuse to admit that the national socialists were socialists (as well as fascists… you can be both).

No, you can't. You can't support private property and oppose it at the same time unless your political ideology is Cognitive Dissonance. The reason everyone says Nazis weren't socialists is that they in fact weren't.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Black_MiD

[BRITLAND]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36419815

Tories Michael Gove, Boris Johnson and Priti Patel, and Labour's Gisela Stuart are calling for a points-based system for all migrants coming to the UK.

 

They say EU free movement rules have hit wages and strained public services.

 

The Remain campaign said the proposal would "wreck" the UK economy and could drive up immigration.

 

In a joint statement, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Priti Patel and Gisela Stuart said their proposals would "create fairness between EU citizens and others" including those from Commonwealth countries..

 

They added: "We think that this system will be fairer, more humane, and better for the economy."

"We will welcome new citizens who wish to contribute to our society, as so many immigrants have done. And we will be able to remove those who abuse our hospitality."

 

In other referendum news, the TUC published research claiming average UK wages would be £38 a week lower by 2030 outside the EU, as part of its push to encourage people to vote to stay in the EU on 23 June.

 

Britain currently has a points-based immigration system for people coming to work in the UK from outside the EU. It means entry to work is limited to people deemed to be of value to the UK economy, such as skilled workers in "shortage occupations" or wealthy entrepreneurs and investors. Migrants with sought-after skills gain more points towards their visa. This is often called an Australian-style system as that country introduced it first.

 

More migrants come to the UK to work through this route each year, from countries such as India, Pakistan and the United States, than arrive from the EU, although the numbers from EU countries have increased in recent years.

 

Leave campaigners want the points system to be extended to cover EU migrants, who are currently free to come to the UK and take up jobs, including low-paid manual work - but it would be up to the government of the day to decide whether to adopt this policy.

The Leave campaign says that if Britain votes to come out of the EU the government should do the following by 2020:

• End the automatic right of all EU citizens to come to live and work in the UK
• Those seeking entry for work or study should be admitted on the basis of their skills without discrimination on the ground of nationality
• To gain the right to work, economic migrants will have to be suitable for the job in question
• For relevant jobs, the UK will be able to ensure that all those who come have the ability to speak good English

EU citizens already lawfully resident in the UK would not be affected as they will be given indefinite leave to remain, and neither will Irish citizens.

The 1972 European Communities Act could also be amended to make it easier to remove criminals and other people whose presence in the UK is "not conducive to the public good".

 

The reporters were saying that it appears more like Boris presenting himself as an alternative leader of the Conservatives (which is why he doing this campaign in the first place), but I think he's been more of a liability for the leave campaign than anything else with his comments regarding Obama, Hitler and bananas imo. But there's still a month to go so I guess anything can happen.

 

But I do think this referendum has lowered Boris's chances of the Conservative leadership, no way would the public or the majority of the Conservative party membership see him as a Prime Minister now.

Edited June 1, 2016 by BRITLAND

[Sonicguy40]

Looking forward to the outcome of the brexit vote! Bring on June 23rd!