UK Politics & Current Affairs Discussion & DIY Home Improvement Thread

[am30]

 

We should get him up against a wall and give him a knighthood.

 

Arise Sir Donald!

 

Sorry, but he would have to be a UK citizen for that to happen. Then he definitely couldn't win his presidential election.

 

 

When he was forcing people out of their homes and ruining a SSSI in these parts to build his "galf resort in the doons of Scatchland" he like to claim his mother was from the Western Isles. So he's an immigrant himself then? Interesting.

[GTA_stu]

Keep the filthy thought criminal out of Airstrip One.

[BRITLAND]

The time has finally come:

 

Britain will vote on whether to remain in the EU on Thursday, 23 June, Prime Minister David Cameron says.

 

The Prime Minister made his historic statement in Downing Street.

 

The prime minister said he has told the cabinet he will recommend remaining in a reformed EU.

 

He has vowed to campaign with his "heart and soul"to keep the UK in.

 

Home Secretary Theresa May has backed him - butother ministers including Justice Secretary Michael Gove are expected to join the out campaign.

 

Leave campaigners are hoping London Mayor Boris Johnson will join their cause - but he has yet to declare where he stands.

 

Mr Cameron claims his EU reform deal - hammeredout at a two-day summit in Brussels - will give the Britain "special status" within the bloc - tackling concerns over migrants getting "something for nothing" from the benefit system and exempting thecountry from the EU drive for "ever closer union".

 

But critics say it does nothing to tackle high levels of immigration or take back powers from Brussels, with UKIP leader Nigel Farage branding it "truly pathetic".

Source: BBC Edited February 20, 2016 by BRITLAND

[Uncle Sikee Atric]

And so the mudslinging begins....

 

This debate is going to be full of vitriol, quite unique for UK, which in a way will make it quite refreshing.

 

The polls are going to be as biased as some of the British newspapers already are, so where we end up is pretty open right now. I have my personal views but they will mean diddly this time.

 

Either way I bet the final result will be somewhere around 60/40, but which way I dread thinking about.

[CBH]

Dear voters, please don't ruin my emigration plans. Thanks!

[GTA_stu]

Boris is for the Brexit!

 

I'm getting anxious about this, June 23rd will be a huge day for the future of this country. f*ck I really hope we get out of the mess that is the EU.

[Der_Don]

Don't let the door hit you on the way out

[Stephan90]

Don't let the door hit you on the way out

 

People like you give us a bad reputation. You make angry. Your post doesn't add anything to the topic. The "if you leave the EU you leave Europe" rhetoric from people like you is stupid bullsh*t. I am sure Switzerland and Norway are still part of Europe and have always been.

 

Alls peoples should have the right to call for a referendum and get one (I give that the UK that, they get referendums, we won't get referendums on anything before hell freezes over), because the EU was a project of elites from the very beginning and has serious issues. It is a farce right now.

 

I am in favour for European cooperation in certain areas, but not for a system, that automatically strives for more and more power over the member states, and that is exactly what the EU has been over the last years. Every crisis is falsely misused to introduce more cantralism.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Stephan90

[sivispacem]

In all fairness, Boris' siding with the "no" campaign is a pretty shrewd political move. They're not actually going to win (people simply don't vote to change the status quo) so he can endear himself to all the Eurosceptic Tories by being on the losing side with them.

[GTA_stu]

The status quo argument doesn't really apply here though, because the EU isn't about maintaining the status quo either. It's about ever closer union and undermining national sovereignty. People will be voting for change either way, and I know the British people would resoundingly prefer to live in an independent UK rather than a European super state. I'm actually quite confident Out will win. What In were banking on was that it could be framed as "should we leave, or stay in a reformed EU" because they know there's large dissatisfaction with the EU as it stands, let alone with where it's headed. But they got bugger all in terms of concessions or reformations. People will not vote to stay in the EU unless there's major changes with it or with our membership of it, and those changes haven't come so it's bye bye thanks for all the fish. Actually the EU stole our fish so it's bye bye hands off our fish.

Edited February 21, 2016 by GTA_stu

[Stephan90]

The status quo argument doesn't really apply here though, because the EU isn't about maintaining the status quo either. It's about ever closer union and undermining national sovereignty.

 

Exactly, very smart comment.

[Smith John]

They're not actually going to win (people simply don't vote to change the status quo)

Clearly the fine edge of the Scottish indy referendum is a distant memory for you.

 

so he can endear himself to all the Eurosceptic Tories by being on the losing side with them.

Do you have some inside info of the result, or something?

[Clem Fandango]

If they leave the EU can I still go to France?!

[Smith John]

I don't reside in France, thank f*ck, so do as you please.

[Der_Don]

 

Don't let the door hit you on the way out

 

People like you give us a bad reputation. You make angry. Your post doesn't add anything to the topic. The "if you leave the EU you leave Europe" rhetoric from people like you is stupid bullsh*t. I am sure Switzerland and Norway are still part of Europe and have always been.

People like me give "us" (I assume you mean Germany/Germans) a bad reputation? That coming from someone who supports the racist and bigoted mob that is Pegida, who is likely to vote for the right-wing, populist Alternative für Deutschland, who cannot cope with a globalised world and falls for the easy solutions voiced by the likes of Petry, Gauland and Höcke... oh boy. It's people like you who are responsible for the bad reputation of the Eastern parts of this country, who expedite the divide between Germans from the East and the West even further, who gives Germany as a whole a bad reputation. It's people like you who make me want the wall back sometimes with you backwarded thinking and your hostility towards everything that doesn't look German. You guys think that your time has come, now that the polls suggest the AfD are getting seats in the state parliaments. But still, for 80-90 % of the Germans, the AfD is not an alternative for Germany. You are a lost cause though. Keep believing that the solution of everything is the renationlization of the European states, that we're still living in the 1900's.

 

As for the Brexit itself: It's not going to happen. The Scottish are too Europe-friendly to vote out. And the English are too afraid that leaving the EU could result in Scotland leaving the UK.

[Clem Fandango]

I really don't see how leaving the EU is a solution to anything. They're not going to deport all the EU nationals either way and isn't that really what this is about? Or is the British right really concerned about what can and can't be called Parmesan cheese or whatever falls under EU policy?

[Stephan90]

 

 

Don't let the door hit you on the way out

 

People like you give us a bad reputation. You make angry. Your post doesn't add anything to the topic. The "if you leave the EU you leave Europe" rhetoric from people like you is stupid bullsh*t. I am sure Switzerland and Norway are still part of Europe and have always been.

People like me give "us" (I assume you mean Germany/Germans) a bad reputation? That coming from someone who supports the racist and bigoted mob that is Pegida, who is likely to vote for the right-wing, populist Alternative für Deutschland, who cannot cope with a globalised world and falls for the easy solutions voiced by the likes of Petry, Gauland and Höcke... oh boy. It's people like you who are responsible for the bad reputation of the Eastern parts of this country, who expedite the divide between Germans from the East and the West even further, who gives Germany as a whole a bad reputation. It's people like you who make me want the wall back sometimes with you backwarded thinking and your hostility towards everything that doesn't look German. You guys think that your time has come, now that the polls suggest the AfD are getting seats in the state parliaments. But still, for 80-90 % of the Germans, the AfD is not an alternative for Germany. You are a lost cause though. Keep believing that the solution of everything is the renationlization of the European states, that we're still living in the 1900's.

 

As for the Brexit itself: It's not going to happen. The Scottish are too Europe-friendly to vote out. And the English are too afraid that leaving the EU could result in Scotland leaving the UK.

 

 

Your post is kind of weird, generalizing and all messed up. Especially since I never attended any demonstration. In my opinion, Merkel's European foreign policy is a complete failure in every single regard. I am against any kind violence and I have never been engaged in any kind of violence in my whole life in contrast to some idiots in the West of the Republic AS WELL (but that you don't mention) Also last time I checked it was some town in the West that was in the headlines all over the world.) People should focus on protesting against Merkel and the rest of the government if they have the free time. Her party is no alternative for me and I don't give a single f*ck what other people are voting for when I make my decision.

 

the picture you are painting is not correct. Merkel is not only losing popularity here, in the recent crisis she has the majority against her politics, and she has also already the majority of EU countries against her.

 

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/fluechtlinge-deutsche-wenden-sich-laut-umfrage-gegen-angela-merkel-a-1072192.html

 

"your hostility towards everything that doesn't look German"

 

also kind of weird considering that I had different experiences. I am sure I would get much better along with a guy like GTA_stu. If I had to endure your nonsense in real life I might forget what I said about violence.

[sivispacem]

The status quo argument doesn't really apply here though, because the EU isn't about maintaining the status quo either. It's about ever closer union and undermining national sovereignty.

But it's not actually a question of "do you want the EU to our undermine sovereignty or not", even though the lengths to which the EU will be able to enforce European policy on the UK are set to be limited under the deal anyway. The question is basically "do you want to leave the EU or remain in it?" and the status quo is fairly clear there.

 

The argument over whether staying in means what you imply it to is a separate one, but entirely irrelevant to the actual question being asked of voters in the referendum. Hence, maintain status quo or venture into the unknown.

 

 

They're not actually going to win (people simply don't vote to change the status quo)

Clearly the fine edge of the Scottish indy referendum is a distant memory for you. Actually, if anything it proves the point. If an outcome backed by a political party with an absolute majority of political support domestically, in the context of a wider political climate dominated by a party with almost nil support in Scotland and in fact explicitly hated by much of the Scottish population can't succeed in motivating enough people to reverse the status quo, then what hope to the "leave" campaigners have?

 

And let's not forget the huge sums of money the business world, which is almost universally pro-EU, are going to plow into making sure the shouts of the "leave" campaign are drowned out.

 

 

so he can endear himself to all the Eurosceptic Tories by being on the losing side with them.

Do you have some inside info of the result, or something?I'm just making educated estimations.

[Uncle Sikee Atric]

It is a very one sided argument at this stage, since the in campaign has only just got their agreement to base their case from. The out argument has already had several months.

 

Personally, leaving the EU isn't the best option for the UK. Re-negioating all the treaties and laws is going to create more red tape than we currently have with the EU and examples like Norway show they still have to supply as much cash to the EU as we already do, to coordinate exactly the treaties we already have a say in ratifying.

 

Leaving the EU will also have a hidden side effect. Not having the access to European trade we currently have will basically decimate what is left of UK trade and industry, and directives that protect rights like working hour limits and such will be removed. Even 'stupid' laws like the protected food rights will be void in the UK, so expect the return of such things like cheap import Melton Mowbrays pies and Yorkshire forced rhubarb and such, might sound crazy but areas with those food protection laws generally work to produce those goods and turn a loss otherwise, which has ended production of the foods in its home area, unless it is small scale production for exclusive restaurants.

 

The rest of the EU will not give a stuff about the UK and quietly hope it does fold into a recession, then it is free to turn it's back when the UK eventually comes back begging for cash. In reality the only way an independent UK will go is to end up as a US state, since the 'special relationship' will be about the only diplomatic avenue left....

 

Even then I suspect Scotland will go independent at a new referendum, to rub salt into the London wound.

 

20 years after the UK leaves the EU, the flag over the Houses Of Parliament will be a States and Stripes and there will be a new Hadrian's Wall at the Scottish border. Doom-mongering indeed.

 

----------

 

As for now, there's four months of wonderful debate to go.... I personally believe we are better off within the EU than out, no matter how many 'high-ranking' Farages tell you otherwise. I would rather have a say in shaping the future Europe than watching from the sidelines, even more so, given the unease as you travel east towards the Middle East and Russia.

 

Plus, why would you throw away a representation and a hand in EU law making, only to then have to have diplomats at the EU, to watch what you once had a hand in making?

 

Look, the EU is flawed, no doubt, but the UK can have a say in making sure it has a bright, unified future by having a hand in creating a new path for it, plus also retain the trade and jobs the EU has secured for decades. Maybe we are in too deep, but that is the fault of previous generations, not the fault of the current one.

 

Leaving now is like leaving a dull party way too early, only for it to end up the 'rave your mates swear ended up the best night ever'. It is too early to deduce how Europe will evolve in the next few decades, but retreating back across the Channel is going to create far more long term issues for the UK than actually digging in and ensuring we maintain what we already have.

[Der_Don]

Your post is kind of weird, generalizing and all messed up. Especially since I never attended any demonstration.

I have no idea what you attending a demonstration or not has to do with the topic at hand? Do you have to be physically present to support a certain group?

 

In my opinion, Merkel's European foreign policy is a complete failure in every single regard.

I didn't once mention Merkel's politics in my post. As if Merkel's politics justify being a racist dick towards refugees.

 

I am against any kind violence and I have never been engaged in any kind of violence in my whole life in contrast to some idiots in the West of the Republic AS WELL (but that you don't mention)

I didn't even talk about violence in particular. What the mob did in Clausnitz the other day wasn't violent at all. And still it was utterly shameful and embarassing.

 

And of course there are some guys in the west who sympathise with Pegida as well, who blame the government and / or the refugees for everything that is wrong with their lives. I'm not denying that. Whenever there's a direct confrontation between refugees and "worried people", you can bet that it took place in the east though. Clausnitz, Bautzen, Heidenau are the latest examples.

 

Also last time I checked it was some town in the West that was in the headlines all over the world.)

You're talking about Cologne? I don't get what you mean in that context. I was talking about many Germans in the East showing a distinct dislike towards refugees. What is your point?

 

the picture you are painting is not correct. Merkel is not only losing popularity here, in the recent crisis she has the majority against her politics, and she has also already the majority of EU countries against her.

What picture am I painting? I didn't even talk about Merkel.

 

If I had to endure your nonsense in real life I might forget what I said about violence.

I didn't expect anything else from you.

[sivispacem]

You know you've lost an argument when you resort to insinuating physical violence against another participant.

[am30]

Only downside is that exiting the EU would pave the way for Scottish independence (one of the most stupid and pointless ideas ever).

 

Being in the EU holds no benefits at all. We should have been out of it years ago.

[Svip]

Being in the EU holds no benefits at all.

Really...?

[sivispacem]

I really don't get the notion that there's no benefit at all to EU membership. Whether or not the benefits outweigh the drawbacks, fair enough, but actually arguing the benefits don't exist it stretching credibility a bit.

[Uncle Sikee Atric]

Being in the EU holds no benefits at all.

That's basically the current propaganda the 'Out' campaign promotes, and has done so since it launched last year.

 

When more solid evidence of that claim is promoted, please add to that quote with said evidence.

[Hayduke]

I hope the people hoping for an out vote have some sort of plan to repatriate the few million British citizens who find themselves without a job or legal residence in the European country in which they were living.

[Clem Fandango]

Presumably the Shengen agreement whatever immigration arrangement Britain has with Europe would still exist unless they intend to round up all the Polish in Britain, which they won't do.

[Uncle Sikee Atric]

That is the point, all those treaties have to be renegotiated.... If an out vote does happen, most experts reckon the UK will take two to three years to actually leave, since treaties will have to be totally rebuilt from scratch, creating as much red tape and cost as it already does.

 

Even if we do leave, the EU will still demand such laws as free movement of citizens and trading laws. Leaving really changes little to nothing, but we lose the right to an EU Commissioner and thus the ability to actually create and amend EU law, plus the access to a court system that does far more good than harm to the average UK resident. (Alright, prison voting rulings aside. I do stubbornly dig my heels in with Cameron on that one. You get locked up, you should be forced to put up and shut up.... But isn't that discussion for another thread?)

 

Is losing our law making powers in Europe actually worth it?

[GTA_stu]

Our ability to affect EU law making is negligible, what are we losing exactly? I'd prefer we had direct control over rather than an insignificant influence over the laws we make and follow. Surely having more power and authority to do what we want is a good thing.

 

The free movement of people wouldn't be demanded by the EU if we leave at all. That's one of the main issues we have with the EU, why would we leave them just to reinstate that? They're not complete idiots or malicious stubborn goats. A trade deal would be worked out which doesn't include the free movement of people or with restrictions of some kind, the EU has free trade deals with a number of countries around the world with which it doesn't have free movement agreements with btw. There's no reason to think the EU would scorn us and put up barriers to trade. It's in their interests to have a good trade relationship with us.

[Uncle Sikee Atric]

You are ignoring the case of Norway in your views. They are surrounded by EU nations as we are, not part of the EU as we would be, yet they have still had to agree to the free movement of citizens as it is with the rest of the EU, so why would we get 'special dispensation' over the same agreement? Especially with the situation over Eire, apart from flying, nearly every ferry and road crossing uses British roads, do travellers using those routes to reach another part of the EU need UK travel papers showing that?

 

The debate has already realised this issue in Northern Ireland, since memories of the 'Bad Times Borders' and Checkpoints of the 80's are still fairly fresh in memories.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Sikee Atric