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BRITLAND

UK Politics & Current Affairs Discussion & DIY Home Improvement Thread

Recommended Posts

ilovebender.com
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Raavi said:

Bet you have heard of the Council of the European Union though? Ecofin is just one of a multitude of so-called configurations within the Council. There are 10 in total covering everything from finance to justice and everything in-between. In layman's terms it's basically just the EU MS finance ministers that come together to discuss and vote on budget, taxation, economic policy etc.  

I thought there were 17.

 

 

Well, as they say in China, UK out.

 

4 minutes ago, sivispacem said:

You didn't really give me anything resembling a coherent point to make an argument against, so taking the piss out of you is the next best thing.

That it's awfully Dunning-Kruger of you to think ECOFIN's a thing people just know because you're in you're £93k doing it?

Edited by ilovebender.com

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sivispacem
6 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

I thought there were 17.

You should probably think less then, it's clearly bad for your health. Or maybe it's all the mould in that fetid house.

  • KEKW 1

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ilovebender.com
3 minutes ago, sivispacem said:

You should probably think less then, it's clearly bad for your health.

There could be a million of them, it doesn't matter.

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Uncle Sikee Atric
Just now, ilovebender.com said:

UK out.

 

Of what, ideas, plans, not listening to people who actually know what they're talking about?

UK out is the most pathetic thing you've said, ever.  And it really shows just how insignificant you and your opinion is.  You're not the UK, you're a clueless pleb with your head buried in an Iceland freezer.

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sivispacem
7 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

Dunning-Kruger

19789999.jpg

 

7 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

you to think ECOFIN's a thing people just know 

Again, when is the stupidly or ignorance of other people my fault?

 

3 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

There could be a million of them, it doesn't matter.

This doesn't eve make sense.

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ilovebender.com
3 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:
4 minutes ago, sivispacem said:

You should probably think less then, it's clearly bad for your health.

There could be a million of them, it doesn't matter.

 

Appointed unelected and unaccountable to control everybody is as appointed unelected and unaccountable to control everybody does.

 

f*ck dem apples, UK out.

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sivispacem
1 minute ago, ilovebender.com said:

Appointed unelected and unaccountable to control everybody is as appointed unelected and unaccountable to control everybody does.

Do you actually think about posts before you make them, or is it a case of furiously bashing the keyboard and rolling with whatever nonsense comes out?

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ilovebender.com
2 minutes ago, sivispacem said:

Again, when is the stupidly or ignorance of other people my fault?

Why should something people's never even heard of be so powerful, and why should people not on the ballot have all the power and none of the scrutiny?

Why ask a question when you don't know what to ask?

Just now, sivispacem said:

Do you actually think about posts before you make them, or is it a case of furiously bashing the keyboard and rolling with whatever nonsense comes out?

I wanted it to merge with my post I quoted about you thinking how many on the council mattered.

 

f*ck dem apples sir, UK, out.

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sivispacem
4 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

Why should something people's never even heard of be so powerful

Most of the county couldn't begin to explain the civil service to you, and yet they directly govern almost every facet of your daily life.

 

4 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

why should people not on the ballot have all the power and none of the scrutiny?

Why is this lamentable (albeit not actually true) in the case of the EU, but perfectly fine in the case of the US (where is inescapably true)?

 

4 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

Why ask a question when you don't know what to ask?

Knowledge is something you have to actively seek; you can't gain it through osmosis. I mean you don't seem able to gain it at all but again that's a wilful decision on your part to remain ignorant and stupid. You could do something about it, but you actively choose not to.

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Uncle Sikee Atric
3 minutes ago, sivispacem said:

You could do something about it, but you actively choose not to.

 

He does do something, he blames us for his own failures at educating himself.

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sivispacem
Just now, Uncle Sikee Atric said:

 

He does do something, he blames us for his own failures at educating himself.

If you lose a game of chess to a strawberry yogurt, you re-evaluate your life choices rather than blaming the fermented milk.

  • YEE 1

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ilovebender.com
Posted (edited)

If the Surpeme Soviet is a different form of government than the EU Parliament where MEPs just rubber stamp what the overseeing council of appointed do.

Appointed whom become immune from prosecution and scrutiny.

 

The people of the USSR got to vote for whatever their name for MEPs were too, who rubber stamped a council of unelected appointed whom were immune from prosecution and scrutiny, it was called the Supreme Soviet, it was like the EU Parliament.

How are Congress and the Senate whom are elected by the people any less democratic?

 

Edited by ilovebender.com

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sivispacem
1 minute ago, ilovebender.com said:

If the Surpeme Soviet is a different form of government than the EU Parliament

It is, and if you think otherwise you clearly have no understanding of either.

 

1 minute ago, ilovebender.com said:

How Congress and the Senate whom are elected by the people any less democratic?

You can add the US electoral system to the growing list of "things Babs could be outwitted by a used condom in discussion of". 

 

We're talking about the Executive branch. Congress and the senate are the Legislature.

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ilovebender.com
Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, sivispacem said:

 

Knowledge is something you have to actively seek; you can't gain it through osmosis

Here's some knowledge for you;

Nobody's heard of ECOFIN you Dunning-Kruger.

You're in you're £93k talking about the civil service probably getting to meet the Queen, and you're wondering why people ought to be aware of the institutions that control them but aren't even told of accusing mere mortals of being stupid for not being in the know of the mess that is the EU.

 

Meanwhile in America, people's heard of Congrees, The Senate, The White House, The Treasury, The Pentagon, The Supreme Court; the EU has things nobody's heard of, we learn of, that are all powerful to them, in a Soviet Union style form of government of appointed officials free from scrutiny and a democracy where people don't get to vote for their law makers, just their rubber stampers. 

 

47 minutes ago, Raavi said:

Bet you have heard of the Council of the European Union though? Ecofin is just one of a multitude of so-called configurations within the Council. There are 10 in total covering everything from finance to justice and everything in-between. In layman's terms it's basically just the EU MS finance ministers that come together to discuss and vote on budget, taxation, economic policy etc.  

 

51 minutes ago, Uncle Sikee Atric said:

Which is your big problem.

 

Unknown EU organisation = Big, Nasty EU!  Must be a woe for my pathetic existence because I don't know what it is or does!

 

1 hour ago, sivispacem said:

You've repeatedly made the entirely false claim that the European Parliament is unelected. You clearly don't know the difference between the two.

 

Besides, we've covered all this before. If we may take a whistle-stop tour of how it went last time: European Commission members are appointed by (elected) member governments and approved by (elected) European Parliament members. The notion of their relative "unaccountability" is highly questionable in the context of other Federal systems where clear delineations between executive, judiciary and legislature exist. In fact, they are vastly more accountable than members of the Executive in countries like the United States (who you frequently cast as a beacon of political positivity), who are not only entirely unelected but also not even subject to a real appointment or approval process, simply nominated by the President and able to take positions regardless of whether they command favourable support in either legislative house. At best the double standard exhibited here is ignorant; at worst its downright bigoted.

 

In practical terms, ECOFIN controls the EU's budget, not the Commission. It's the Economic and Financial Affairs Council which has final authority over annual budgets, and more widely it is the Council of the European Union which truly controls the fiscal agenda.

In fact, the long-term financial framework in which the Commissions must work in its proposals of annual budgets is exceptionally democratic, requiring not only a qualified majority as with most policy but unanimous support from every EU member state; show me one other example of a long-term fiscal policy so inclusive. 

About that...

UK's all;

 

Edited by ilovebender.com

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Raavi
11 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

Meanwhile in America, people's heard of Congrees, The Senate, The White House, The Treasury, The Pentagon, The Supreme Court; the EU has things nobody's heard of

You can name the three branches of government, congratulations. Have you heard of the Ways and Means Committee? How about the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency? Or.. the  Weights and Measures Division? Perhaps familiar with the work of the Ginnie Mae?

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ilovebender.com
Just now, Raavi said:

You can name the three branches of government, congratulations. Have you heard of the Ways and Means Committee? How about the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency? Or.. the  Weights and Measures Division? Perhaps familiar with the work of the Ginnie Mae?

And yet, UK people can't name all the EU's.

 

 

Nice democracy you want there Pal.

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sivispacem
9 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

Nobody's heard of ECOFIN 

I have; plenty of other people who actually understand how the EU works have too. Your ignorance is not our fault.

 

10 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

You're in you're £93k talking about the civil service probably getting to meet the Queen, and you're wondering why people ought to be aware of the institutions that control them

Having an average or even low income does not magically preclude you from knowing how EU institutions work. Access to information is easier today than at any point in history; if people want to know the truth rather than the drivel put forward by right wing gossip rags it's literally a Google search away.

 

14 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

Meanwhile in America, people's heard of Congrees, The Senate, The White House, The Treasury, The Pentagon, The Supreme Court

Actually American comprehension of their electoral system is extremely poor, far worse than that of almost any other democratic county.

 

The ignorance of the functioning of the EU is also a very British thing; elsewhere in Europe it's billy-basic stuff.

 

None of this actually addresses the fact you got your branches of government totally wrong.

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Raavi
1 minute ago, ilovebender.com said:

And yet, UK people can't name all the EU's.

But US people can name all of the US's agencies and departments?

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ilovebender.com
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Raavi said:

But US people can name all of the US's agencies and departments?

Most likely.

 

It's basic stuff, not £93k a year civil servant canteen banter.

Edited by ilovebender.com

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Tchuck
3 hours ago, ilovebender.com said:

Most likely.

Source: Voices in your head. People know of the congress, of the senate, of the white house, of the supreme court, because they are pretty damn always on the media. Ask an average person what a comptroller does, and they'd go "what?". 

 

Funnily you didn't respond to Raavi's asking if you know what any of those UK agencies are/do.

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ilovebender.com
Posted (edited)

The only thing that matters in regards to the EU is that the UK said;

Since the UK said that to the EU, doesn't matter one lick what they do imo. Trade with themselves while we undercut them selling services to the US and Japan to become a better business environment shunned by the EU and denied access so they'd be selling their services to themselves and China while UK sells across the Atlantic and enters the Pacific region.

the EU's all

"MEPS, EU Council" blah blah blah, 'Unaccountable all powerful things nobody's ever heard of', so the UK left it. To leave the EU should be to leave every EU institution too, lest something somewhere else nobody has ever heard of retains control in the EU.

 

Edited by ilovebender.com

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sivispacem
5 hours ago, ilovebender.com said:

not £93k a year civil servant canteen banter.

Yeah, I'm not a civil servant.

 

Plus, as already mentioned, the US has amongst the lowest levels of political engagement and comprehension in the developed world. The notion that there's widespread understanding of the existence, let alone role, of many of these bit-part agencies amongst even a sizeable minority of Americansis frankly laughable.

 

1 hour ago, ilovebender.com said:

 they'd be selling their services to themselves and China 

And the ~70% of the world by GDP they already have trade deals with.

 

1 hour ago, ilovebender.com said:

To leave the EU should be to leave every EU institution too, lest something somewhere else nobody has ever heard of retains control in the EU.

You should probably refrain from nighttime nonsense posting; you make progressively less sense and manage, shocking as that may be, to somehow contribute even less than normal.

 

Also, stop spamming the thread with South Park videos. 

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Uncle Sikee Atric

Good news this morning, not only is Cummingsgate not dying down, as much as Ministers plead for us all to 'move on,' regarding the subject, Fullfact has also released their findings of the latest think tank report :

 

Claim: 7.7% of UK goods exports go to the EU.

 

Conclusion: Incorrect. 46% of UK goods exports go to the EU, according to the latest data for 2019. Those exports amount to 7.7% of GDP.

“BREXIT has seen the UK reduce EU exports to such a level that its reliance on the bloc for trade is down to a fraction of the nation's total exports, new figures reveal...

“The data, published and researched by pro-Brexit organisation Facts4EU, show that just 7.7 percent of UK goods exports were with the EU”

Express, 24 May 2020

It’s significantly wrong to say only 7.7% of UK goods exports are with the EU, as the Express claimed over the weekend. The correct figure is 46%, according to the latest available data for 2019.

 

Guess what @ilovebender.com, you're using fake news!

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-goods-exports-gdp/?fbclid=IwAR0Stotdk5eRCtV7i_Y5W4B0jKcXxeXV1RabR8_mzUBiBc8gAivJpQMqfEA

 

Also, to help you make sense of your own choices and claims about the 'unelected appointees,' there's been handy things published elsewhere, in nice, simple terms, for you to understand.

 

100838295_697333164173841_83614685139734

 

(It's generally thought that Boris was 'inappropriate' during the future Mrs Cummings' hen night and his penis might be involved as well.  It's also thought that Cummings will go very public with just how much of a serial cheat Boris is, he probably knows the entire list of mistresses and bastard children, which is undoubtedly much longer than what is currently known.) 

 

 

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Jimbatron
On 5/21/2020 at 7:19 PM, sivispacem said:

You still seem to be confused on the concept of burden of proof.

I'll focus on this remark briefly as it's hard not to read it as a deliberate attempt to come across as patronising and condescending (although that could be applied to a lot of your attitude in the trimmed post from above, unless I am misreading it).

 

Three points:

1) I think it has already agreed that this is subject that cannot be proved either way. So talking about burden of proof seems somewhat out of place.

2) If you had said, "I'm not wholly convinced by your comments, I want to see more examples/evidence to back it up", I may well have responded with an acknowledgement that I had not given too many, and could supply more. Doubtless then, the conversation would already have progressed along those lines.

3) If however, you're going to take the view that someone's stance is completely wrong, and take the polar opposite view, then it is not unreasonable to assume that you must therefore have some substantial reasons for taking such a position. This is not a court of law, or a science experiment, it is a discussion on the internet forum. If two people want to take opposite views, I think it is reasonable for them to take an equal share of responsibility to back it up. If one person is simply going to shout "b0110cks!" from the sidelines periodically, contribute nothing on the grounds that the other person has to prove everything, then I think a lot of people would find that aloof and rather rude.

 

I will give you the benefit of the doubt that your position is 2), and not 3), noting that 1) still applied regardless.

 

With that in mind I'm happy to provide more examples. However, I notice you seem to have already divided this into a lot of sub points that are nothing to do with Boris Johnson's psychological dispositions, this seems to have digressed into some very grey and wholly unrelated areas. Assuming that is not a deliberate strategy on your part, I'm assuming you won't mind if I keep this clearly focused on one point at a time, to avoid any further and unhelpful digressions.

 

So, let’s start with arguably one of his most infamous characteristics, the lying. He’s got a long history of this, both big and small.

 

In 1988 he was sacked from The Times for an article where he invented a quote which he falsely attributed to the historian Colin Lucas, his godfather. After the editor Charles Wilson learned of the matter, Johnson was dismissed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Johnson

It’s very much a case of starting as he meant to go on.

 

Indeed, a later assessment from his Boss at the Telegraph, Sir Max Hastings, adds further claim that this is not an isolated incident and that Johnson has a best a passing familiarity with the truth, stating “I would not take Boris’ word about whether it is Monday or Tuesday … He is not a man to believe in, to trust or respect”:

https://www.thesteepletimes.com/the-fog/bin-boris/

 

Boris Johnson was sacked a second time for lying when serving as shadow arts minister under Michael Howard in 2004. Tabloids had published that he had been having an affair since 2000 resulting in two terminated pregnancies. Johnson initially told Michael Howard the stories were untrue. When it became apparent it was Johnson who was lying, Howard asked him to resign, and sacked him when he refused.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2004/nov/14/uk.conservatives

 

One of the most obvious lies was the Referendum Campaign he led where they pledged that the UK sent the EU £350 every week and this money could be spent on the NHS instead. As the UK statistics authority pointed out, this is the gross figure, such a sum of money could not be directly transferred because it was paid after the application of the rebate (i.e. the net figure is much smaller).

https://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/news/uk-statistics-authority-statement-on-the-use-of-official-statistics-on-contributions-to-the-european-union/

Particularly significant because the headline campaign leading to one of the UK’s most momentous decisions was a deception. This therefore categorises as a big lie that has far reaching consequences. Whilst other people will have been involved, Boris Johnson led this campaign and had to sign off on the slogan slapped the side of the bus. He also repeated the lie in an Article for the Telegraph in September 2017, after the UK Statistics Authority had verified it as untrue.

 

On 28th August 2019, Boris Johnson advised the Queen to prorogue parliament which would effectively suspended it until 14th October. The natural suspicion was that this was to reduce Parliamentary scrutiny on any Brexit deal he might strike, with the default being that the UK would crash out without a deal. Johnson denied this was the case, stating it was normal procedure to allow a new government to focus on legislative agenda, which lacked credibility given Parliament had already been through a lengthy summer recess. The Supreme Court effectively called BS on that assertion, quashing the prorogation. By implication Boris Johnson will have lied to the Queen.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49810261

Clearly, he is prepared to lie to anyone and everyone, regardless of their status.

 

Some ones that stick in my mind particularly are on the 2019 election campaign, being quite recent.

 

There’s the incident when challenged by a member of the public at Whipps Cross Hospital. Challenged that he was there as a PR stunt, Johnson claimed “there are no press here”, when the press were actually filming him saying it:

 

It’s not as consequential as the bigger lies. But it’s indicative of his behaviour. He was challenged when not expecting it and unprepared. His instinctive reaction was to lie without even thinking – before his brain had time to compute that it was instantly and demonstrably not the truth.

 

The next one you just couldn’t make up – he actually told porkie pies about pork pies. Johnson claimed that UK-made pies were available in Iceland and Thailand but not on American shelves because of “some sort of food and drug administration restriction”. Matthew O'Callaghan, the chairman of the Melton Mowbray Pork Pie Association, queried Mr Johnson’s claims.

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-pork-pie-claims-dismissed-as-not-true-by-melton-mowbray-495140

Asked if Johnson was correct, he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "Not really. With all of these things, it is a little bit of give and take. We don't actually export to Thailand or to Iceland." It’s another example of a pointless lie – one that in the great scheme of things, would be unlikely to make a difference. But he made it up anyway. A sign lying comes easily and instinctively to him.

 

Lets not even get into the bigger lies told by his adviser last weekend, which he apparently backed, Johnson was also on hand to throw in more smaller fabrications in support. Trying to back up Cummings’ shocking story that he’d taken a drive to find out if his eye sight had been affected by the virus (wrong on so many levels), Johnson said “I’m finding that I have to wear spectacles for the first time in years – because I think of the likely effects of this thing – so I’m inclined to think there’s some … I think that’s very, very plausible that eyesight can be a problem associated with coronavirus.”. He’s been photographed on many recent occasions wearing spectacles.

https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/25/boris-johnson-says-coronavirus-has-affected-eyesight-12756577/

 

So, a simple question.

 

Do you intend to contest that Boris Johnson has a long an consistent history of lying?

 

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Grotti Vigilante
On 5/27/2020 at 12:36 PM, Uncle Sikee Atric said:

100838295_697333164173841_83614685139734

The European Court of Human Rights is a totally separate institution from the European Union, and by extension the European Parliament. 

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Smith John
On 5/27/2020 at 12:36 PM, Uncle Sikee Atric said:

Good news this morning, not only is Cummingsgate not dying down

Well this aged well. All of two days to be precise.

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sivispacem
4 hours ago, Jimbatron said:

1) I think it has already agreed that this is subject that cannot be proved either way.

Then you, in essence, accept your statement has no empirical value beyond expressing a belief. If you cannot provide empirical evidence for your hypothesis it becomes solely an article of faith. I'm not asking for categorical proof anyway, just some kind of empirical evidence.

 

4 hours ago, Jimbatron said:

2) If you had said, "I'm not wholly convinced by your comments, I want to see more examples/evidence to back it up", I may well have responded with an acknowledgement that I had not given too many

None; you provided none. I'm still absolutely flumoxed by your continued belief that you've provided any evidence to speak of in support of your assertions before this post, hence I assume why you have been unable to quote your previous posts demonstrating where you have, in fact, provided supporting evidence.

 

The whole thing is a bit moot though because I'm 90% sure your initial comment was throwaway hyperbole and you weren't expecting to get called out in it the way you did. 

 

4 hours ago, Jimbatron said:

3) If however, you're going to take the view that someone's stance is completely wrong, and take the polar opposite view...then it is not unreasonable to assume that you must therefore have some substantial reasons for taking such a position

I think you're mistaking critiquing your absence of coherent argument for an affirmation of my holding a contrary view. Given my core points of contention are your definition of psychopathy, the absence of supplier supporting evidence, and the neglecting of any visible alternative hypotheses, I think its fairly clear where my focus has been. 

 

But even if this weren't the case, someone arguing the inverse of your position wouldn't logically need to provide evidence in the same way if someone arguing the affirmative. Not any more than arguing against the assertion that he's a Martian, or a turnip. The onus sits solely in you to evidence your claims, not on critics of them to "prove you wrong".

 

4 hours ago, Jimbatron said:

Do you intend to contest that Boris Johnson has a long an consistent history of lying?

I don't think I've ever said, suggested, indicated or implied otherwise. If the litmus test for psychopathy were manufacturing and dissemination of falsehoods, then pretty much all politicians would necessarily be psychopaths.

 

I find it interesting you choose the most obvious but least compelling characteristic you define to evidence at length first, rather than a significantly more challenging but much more compelling one.

 

4 hours ago, Jimbatron said:

If one person is simply going to shout "b0110cks!" from the sidelines periodically, contribute nothing on the grounds that the other person has to prove everything, then I think a lot of people would find that aloof and rather rude.

I find it rather ironic that you cast legitimate criticism of the lack of evidence supporting your assertions, plus the underlying definitions on which those are based, as "shouting bollocks from the sidelines". I think most people would find it perfectly rational, reasonable and sensible to be asked to defend and supply evidence supporting an assertion they've made; hardly "rude" or "aloof".

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Uncle Sikee Atric
15 hours ago, Smith John said:

Well this aged well. All of two days to be precise.

 

It hasn't calmed down though and the covers of the Sunday rags are tomorrow.

 

The petition created to show public opinion has topped over 1 million signatures, opinion polls in pro-Tory rags show he should go (including stats that show a majority in Pro-Leave voters of 55 percent), and 45 Tory MP's say he should go. (EDIT : As of yesterday, the number at least critical of his actions are at 100, 45 calling for him to go, the rest are openly critical of his actions https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/list-grows-of-tory-mps-calling-for-cummings-to-resign?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other&fbclid=IwAR3zTW_xIWr_gGK9Rhr5ZehaVhXuWZWTQhEeku2iVuToADI0DThcEU8YRBE)

 

They're being deluged with more letters than their majorities already, so the damage to the party reputation is vast, let alone the trust issue and the fact increasing numbers flout social distancing regulations, because Cummings got away with it. 

 

In less than a week, Boris has thrown away everything that represented his 80 seat majority, all to save the skin of his mate and confidant.  People are not happy with that decision and the general opinion polls show the Tory lead is back well into single figures (5-7% only, so that's back into the hung parliament zone) and Sir Keir has passed Boris in terms of polls on which political leader is better for the first time.

----------

EDIT : They're doing their utmost to divert the info and keep this one quiet :

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/50-million-boost-to-support-the-recovery-of-our-high-streets?fbclid=IwAR10ks7Uv5GmRR99SlvTuA_9s_x52M0U8nQeU4467gtS3FtcoVg-6QZe6Y8

 

Buried in the small print is the reason why : "Today’s £50 million funding comes from the European Regional Development Fund (ERDF)."  It's from the EU.

 

 

 

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Smith John

Wow, The Guardian still hanging on to this story for dear life. Shocker! Meanwhile, even the BBC have acknowledged nobody gives a f*ck about this anymore.

 

And polls six months into the last election mean nothing, even if I thought polls meant anything in the first place anyway.

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ilovebender.com

@sivispacem

If you can't beat them, ban them eh?

 

Now where were we?

 

Oh yeah, your pathetic argument of

'I make £93k per year, poor people are stupid'

To my

'Why should all powerful EU institutions nobody's ever heard of have say over what we do in the UK'

or

'The EU council are all powerful but aren't elected, are appointed'.

 

You gotta do better than

'I make £93K per year, poor people are stupid'

Or

'We vote for MEPs'

 

Because, if that's all the argument you have, then you've lost, and we're going home saying screw you guys.

Let the EU be the EU, but UK isn't the EU so doesn't have to be ruled by a bunch of unelected unaccountable people heading up things we've never even heard of!

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