UK Politics & Current Affairs Discussion & DIY Home Improvement Thread

[ilovebender.com]

40 minutes ago, Brad said:

 

The future is crystal clear. We just haven't had a real debate on nominal sovereignty, sovereignty and trade offs with the international system. And while we don't know our destination because as a nation, we haven't had a comprehensive debate on the trade offs we accept, there are a couple of examples of where we'll land. 

 

Norway: Member of the Single Market through the EFTA, but has its own independent trade policy. However, not an ideal destination for the UK. Doesn't make sense for an economy with world class services to not have a say on the legal direction of the ECJ. Norway, on the other hand, is commodity rich and yields more benefits following an independent trade policy. 

 

Switzerland: Switzerland is unique as it negotiates uniquely sector by sector. Could be a destination, but Switzerland has been perpetual negotiation with the EU and such an arrangement will take decades, as it took for Switzerland. Also, this has a unique freedom of movement provision in its treaty. 

 

 

 

You do know that what UK's doing is setting the precedent giving clarity to other EU countries in the future if they ever decided to leave the EU - we're in uncharted territory hence the lack of clarity.

 

If we crash out, we'd be like a third party to the EU; probably like the United States is, I don't know, does the EU have any deal with the United States?

Edited December 21, 2019 by ilovebender.com

[Brad]

1 hour ago, ilovebender.com said:

You do know that what UK's doing is setting the precedent giving clarity to other EU countries in the future if they ever decided to leave the EU - we're in uncharted territory hence the lack of clarity.

 

If we crash out, we'd be like a third party to the EU; probably like the United States is, I don't know, does the EU have any deal with the United States?

The EU does not have a deal with the United States. 

 

And while we are uncharted waters, that does not mean that the waters cannot be charted. It is very simple. If you wish to have regulatory divergence, go ahead - but to much protest of your services sector in which 80% income derives from having friction less market access  - but do not simultaneously wish to stipulate particular exemptions, or status that is more privileged, than the members themselves. The Single Market requires supranational jurisprudence (how else can it be a level playing field?).

 

By all means leave, as is your sovereign to do so, but do not simultaneously argue that other countries cannot exercise their sovereignty either. It has been crystal clear, since day one, that EU member states prioritise the integrity of the single market and by extension the indivisable four freedoms, over the departure of the UK of European Union. 

You will recount that it was the European Union goaded the UK to a no deal Brexit upon its first extension request. 

 

But if this episode of Brexit has shown, Eurosceptism across the EU has fallen.  

 

So I resume to my original point, argue Brexit all you like but to say that it will not have negative economic consequences nor will our competitiveness with our largest trading partner be enhanced either.

[Tyler]

Coming from a perspective that is ignorant to UK economics, what actual leverage does the UK have to barter with anyone and maintain or improve their current situation? As an outsider looking in, it seems pretty clear that the UK has sacrificed financial integrity for the sake of thumbing their nose at the changing tide. There are ideas from a more socialist perspective on how to move forward and provide citizens with a back up plan for safety and medical care while Brexit goes through, but I don't think most Brexiteers look favorably toward those. 

[Brad]

4 minutes ago, Tyler said:

Coming from a perspective that is ignorant to UK economics, what actual leverage does the UK have to barter with anyone and maintain or improve their current situation? As an outsider looking in, it seems pretty clear that the UK has sacrificed financial integrity for the sake of thumbing their nose at the changing tide. There are ideas from a more socialist perspective on how to move forward and provide citizens with a back up plan for safety and medical care while Brexit goes through, but I don't think most Brexiteers look favorably toward those. 

Where Brussels exercises most of its leverage is through running the clock. It is point blank clearer that the damage dealt between the UK and EU would be asymmetrically at the detriment to the UK than the EU. 

 

The issue is that, the UK as a whole, has not had a proper debate as to what "Brexit" actually entails. The evangelists of the Vote Leave campaign exercise that completely regulatory and trade autonomy as being the "only true Brexit" and that anything that outsources, to whatever degree, trade or regulatory trade offs as being "BRINO" (Brexit in Name Only). 

 

The red lines that the UK government has negotiated from, ever since May's Lancaster House speech in 2017, has been one of "No to freedom of movement", "No to ECJ jurisprudence" and "A completely nonvenomous trade policy." 

 

But the problem is that the strategy pursued is aspirational at best, maintaining that "friction less trade can continue" whilst pursuing regulatory divergence. 

 

So the problem is strategic and we don't have a clear landing zone as to where we want to be. Nor a political class that is actually willing to say to the public "You can have Brexit, but this will take a decade". 

 

When the UK invoked Article 50 without a clear strategic direction as to where it wanted to land, it sacrificed as tremendous amount of leverage. Firstly, it the timetable and sequencing of negotiations were largely dictated by Brussels. Both in the Withdrawal Agreement phases of negotiations AND the future relationship sequence.

 

Second, as I mentioned earlier, the UK has no interest in a "No deal". So Brussels can run the clock and extract further concessions with the time ticking. 

 

You can also count Brussels using UK domestic pressure to "Get Brexit done" as another arena to drive pressure. 

 

So the leverage has been largely scarified as the UK walked into the Article 50 trap. It is also in a state of limbo as it will be in a transition state where it will be a rule-taker for the foreseeable future with no say when it leaves on January 31st. 

Just to be clear, a trade deal will not be concluded this year. Something "dirty" to get the ball over the line maybe doable to satisfy the British electorate. Think "Canada minus minus minus". 

 

 

[ilovebender.com]

13 minutes ago, Tyler said:

Coming from a perspective that is ignorant to UK economics, what actual leverage does the UK have to barter with anyone and maintain or improve their current situation? As an outsider looking in, it seems pretty clear that the UK has sacrificed financial integrity for the sake of thumbing their nose at the changing tide. There are ideas from a more socialist perspective on how to move forward and provide citizens with a back up plan for safety and medical care while Brexit goes through, but I don't think most Brexiteers look favorably toward those. 

Leaving the EU in the hope to have a deal with the EU instead of being in the EU is what it's about.

We'd be an outsider looking in USA or China too, and?

You want to be in the EU? Tough luck, we're set to leave that so being a part of something we have no say over makes less sense than being an outsider looking in.

 

[sivispacem]

3 hours ago, ilovebender.com said:

You don't accept that the state doesn't own private businesses

Even if this were true- which it isn't- this has literally no relevance to any of the points made in my post.

Government is as much reliant on business as business is on government; nothing turns the electorate away from an incumbent regime quite like a nice recession, so it should be in the rational interest of government to make as much information as possible available, in as timely a manner as possible.

 

3 hours ago, ilovebender.com said:

done all it's can by warning us to prepare for Brexit

Which is about as useful a piece of information to base business policy on as "prepare for armageddon".

If businesses aren't even given the faintest inclination as to what tariff regime, what customs regulations and even what regulatory environment they're going to "preparing" for, how can they realistically prepare?

 

3 hours ago, ilovebender.com said:

Well that's the dumbest thing I ever read

What's "dumb" is an abject failure with absolutely no business experience, relevant qualification (either academic or vocational) or even basic comprehension of the core principles of operating a business thinking its realistic for organisations to restructure every time someone in cabinet sneezes too violently.

 

3 hours ago, ilovebender.com said:

If you don't like hard work, get out of the business world

You're quite literally a male stripper. What you know about "the business world" could be written on my thumbnail with a Sharpie.

 

2 hours ago, ilovebender.com said:

I don't know

Could have just led with that.

it's abundantly clear there's an awful lot about this you don't have the faintest clue about, because you've utterly failed to respond to any of Brad's entirely sensible, salient, well-reasoned and rational points above.

 

21 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

hope

Here is it again- hope. We could have remained in the Single Market and/or Customs Union and enjoyed unfettered free market access vastly better than any trade deal we're likely to strike but no; government policy is to basically gamble the house on the "hope" that the EU will give us a good enough deal across a handful of largely economically unimportant industry sectors as to keep a large enough proportion of the Conservative swing in the last election voting Tory. 

[ilovebender.com]

29 minutes ago, sivispacem said:

Even if this were true- which it isn't-

The only "company" the state owns is the National Health Service.

How stupid are you that you don't even understand the difference between the public sector or the private sector.

We have a private sector who the government has warned us to prepare for Brexit, how can you say it's not true that government doesn't own anyone's private business, you f*cking Muppet, how dumb are you?

 

It's only the EU, who cares, it's not like we're Brexiting from the world, so, it's funny to me you regard it like preparing for Armageddon; How far up the EU's arse are you? When you were kissing the EU's butt, what happened? Did it sit on you? Did you go up the EU's back passage and now are convinced the EU is the world?

There is no mighty EU, it's just the EU, it's only the EU; and pretty soon that EU, whatever they decide to do, UK won't be a part of its planning or party to any meeting or anything, so it's best we have a clean break from the EU - you f*cking moron.

 

God how can someone be that stupid?

Edited December 21, 2019 by ilovebender.com

[Svip]

Generally speaking, when you wish to take a large group of people through uncertainty, it is because you can at least present an objective, and a potential reward for the likely hardship.  UK businesses are reasonably worried, because the UK government haven't been able to give them reasonable clarity in their objective, and what the potential rewards would be.  It's not the businesses don't understand politics (i.e. why Brexit is happening), but in this scenario Brexit is entirely a detriment to their livelihood.  Generally speaking.

 

Of course, if your position is anti-capitalism and anti-neoliberalism, then I suppose Brexit makes sense.  But those are not the motivations of the advocates of Brexit.  Except Jeremy Corbyn, I suppose.

[Brad]

22 minutes ago, sivispacem said:

Here is it again- hope. We could have remained in the Single Market and/or Customs Union and enjoyed unfettered free market access vastly better than any trade deal we're likely to strike but no; government policy is to basically gamble the house on the "hope" that the EU will give us a good enough deal across a handful of largely economically unimportant industry sectors as to keep a large enough proportion of the Conservative swing in the last election voting Tory. 

 

And I think this is something which really showcases the limit options on the table. 

I do think there has to be the space and time to engineer such an agreement that can satisfy Single Market access. But the crux of the issue is that ECJ jurisprudence simply won't fly politically in the UK. It would seem an irreconcilable state of affairs for the UK to be in a permanent "rule-taker" situation, especially when the services sector is the golden egg in this scenario where it will have no voice nor be in the room when the ships changes bearing. 

 

A customs union would involve outsourcing trade policy to Brussels, which again, won't fly politically nor do I think it is in the UK's interest to be outside of the room. 

 

I think whatever form of Brexit that can be deemed "satisfactory" will not see itself as an "off the shelf" mechanism. Switzerland, whereby sector by sector regulatory exemptions and alignment, seems to be the destination which has the consensus. Indeed, this will be continuous negotiation and I think an examination of the Swiss-EU "compromise" to Freedom of Movement in response to the 2014 Swiss immigration Initiative can provide some glimpse into the future as to how the UK and the EU will cooperate on these areas. 

 

But that can only happen when the British public do not see Freedom of Movement as a sacrificial lamb to the altar of sovereignty. 

[ilovebender.com]

7 minutes ago, Svip said:

UK businesses are reasonably worried, because the UK government haven't been able to give them reasonable clarity...

We know.

 

Hence the uncertain times we're living in.

 

But short of a crystal ball, that's how it is; the government can't tell us what's going to happen in the future other than Brexit is coming; I'm sure, when the government knows what comes next, they'd tell everybody to provide some certainty, but until then, you can't fault the government for not knowing.

Edited December 21, 2019 by ilovebender.com

[Svip]

Through all the fault of your own.

[Brad]

8 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

The only "company" the state owns is the National Health Service.

How stupid are you that you don't even understand the difference between the public sector or the private sector.

We have a private sector who the government has warned us to prepare for Brexit, how can you say it's not true that government doesn't own anyone's private business, you f*cking Muppet, how dumb are you?

 

It's only the EU, who cares, it's not like we're Brexiting from the world, so, it's funny to me you regard it like preparing for Armageddon; How far up the EU's arse are you? When you were kissing the EU's butt, what happened? Did it sit on you? Did you go up the EU's back passage and now are convinced the EU is the world?

There is no mighty EU, it's just the EU, it's only the EU; and pretty soon that EU, whatever they decide to do, UK won't be a part of its planning or party to any meeting or anything, so it's best we have a clean break from the EU - you f*cking moron.

 

God how can someone be that stupid?

 

The NHS is a public welfare service, not a company. The clue is in the name "National Health Service". 

[ilovebender.com]

3 minutes ago, Brad said:

 

The NHS is a public welfare service, not a company. The clue is in the name "National Health Service". 

Still is something state owned that the government in it's almighty stupidness has decided to make it their problem.

We should have a private health service too to stop this monopoly, but, whatever, the NHS is state owned; The government doesn't own private businesses - some idiot on here told me it does.

5 minutes ago, Svip said:

Through all the fault of your own.

Good bye EU, we're leaving, it's not the end of the world, and we'd see how much the EU doesn't matter once we're out.

It's not like we're leaving a superpower or anything.

 

Edited December 21, 2019 by ilovebender.com

[Brad]

4 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

Still is something state owned that the government in it's almighty stupidness has decided to make it their problem.

We should have a private health service too to stop this monopoly, but, whatever, the NHS is state owned; The government doesn't own private businesses - some idiot on here told me it does.

Good bye EU, we're leaving, it's not the end of the world, and we'd see how much the EU doesn't matter once we're out.

It's not like we're leaving a superpower or anything.

 

Just a regulatory superpower. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect

[ilovebender.com]

7 minutes ago, Brad said:

Just a regulatory superpower. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect

I hate EU regulations, they think those toys in Kinder Surprises are safe because they're made in the EU.

If those were made in America, I bet the EU would see the problem with them too.

EU regulations suck,  who says they're any good anyway?

 

What UK really should do is to put the Americans in Europe. If EU thought UK was a vassal state of America and part time European before, think what'll happen when UK really does decided to be more American...

Give America more influence in this part of the world by being real close in regulations and things to the Americans and push for America First in Europe to counter the backwards nature of the EU on this world and to keep its ambitions in check.

It comes down to being a vassal state of the EU, or a vassal state of America.

I vote America. EU's too strange and alien and backwards.

No democracy, MEPs and the EU Parliament just rubber stamp what the unelected and untouchable do, the EU distrust America and freedom too, so I vote for America.

Edited December 21, 2019 by ilovebender.com

[Svip]

I would not worry.  You will still be able to buy Kinder Surprises after Brexit.

[Raavi]

17 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

EU regulations suck,  who says they're any good anyway?

 

Everyone with a modicum of common sense. Do you like?

 

• Having a minimum guarantee period for consumer products of 2 years
• Being able to return / cancel any online order within 14 days of purchasing
• Have no roaming charges whenever you cross a border within the EU
• Not having to pay through the nose when you have an accident abroad rather benefiting from the European Health Insurance Card

 

Just to name a few.

 

Hint: The UK did not come up with these. 

 

 

[ilovebender.com]

14 minutes ago, Raavi said:

 

...

• Not having to pay through the nose when you have an accident abroad rather benefiting from the European Health Insurance Card

 

...

 

 

You mean if I go to Philadelphia and needed to go to the hospital there, my EHIC card will bail me out of any bills?

Do you think that people don't venture outside the EU?

What good is an EHIC card in Oregon or California or Pennsylvania?

What good is it in China?

Just get travel insurance that covers the EU post Brexit, we already can buy it for other parts of the world.

 

Just forget about the EU being the world, it's nothing, full of countries with no direction and suspect regimes and histories.

 

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/eu-prepares-for-hard-brexit-1-6435818

Good news, Boris Johnson has passed his withdrawal bill through parliament today promising to diverge from Brussels rules making for a hard Brexit.

Edited December 21, 2019 by ilovebender.com

[Raavi]

European Health Insurance Card you dipsh*t. Europe is in the name. Nice job ignoring all the other points that I am 100% sure you have benefited from in the past too.

 

The US health insurance coverage is a joke for residents, let alone when you're a foreigner. 

[ilovebender.com]

18 minutes ago, Raavi said:

European Health Insurance Card you dipsh*t. Europe is in the name. Nice job ignoring all the other points that I am 100% sure you have benefited from in the past too.

It's just, when you said it worked abroad; sounded like you've never flown long haul in your life - I stand by what I say though, what good is EHIC in Philadlephia or China?

It doesn't even cover every country in the EU anyway.

 

Just go see the world outside of the EU, get worldly; going abroad does't always mean you're going to be in the EU, lol, so when you say EHIC card will work abroad, you really mean, it should work in the EU, but that depends where in the EU you're going to anyway.

Edited December 21, 2019 by ilovebender.com

[Raavi]

17 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

It's just, when you said it worked abroad; sounded like you've never flown long haul in your life or figured I'd let that slide; nah, I stand by what I say, what good is it in Philadlephia or China?

Get it right.

 

We are talking about EU regulations you dolt. They benefit you within the EU, exceptions expanding the scope of application permitted. This is basic stuff, even someone with intelligence of a mussel's beard such as yourself should be able to understand that.

 

Also, once again great job ignoring the other regulations/directives you have clearly benefited from.

[ilovebender.com]

3 minutes ago, Raavi said:

 

We are talking about EU regulations you dolt. They benefit you within the EU. ...

Brexit; EU regulations don't apply though, so they're gone anyway come Brexit.

We should have a clean break from the EU because UK's diverging.

If we still aligned to the EU, that means we get no say over things that effect us, so we're coming out of EU regulations since we're leaving the EU; UK MEPs will return home and we'd have no say over what they do in the EU so it makes sense that the EU has no say what we do in the UK.

Edited December 21, 2019 by ilovebender.com

[Uncle Sikee Atric]

27 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

It's just, when you said it worked abroad. you made it sound like it worked around the world; I know it doesn't and anyone who thinks it's worth staying in the EU over is a moron who should probably get out of the EU more.

The EHIC does work in some countries outside the EEA, because agreements have been made to allow it as a valid acceptance that the EU countries also honor the outside EEA patients of those countries.  (It's currently valid in the Faroe Islands and Greenland, but other countries with trade deals are considering allowing the use of EHIC cards and the other countries will issue their own versions of the card the EU will honor.  (This is a popular idea within several nations with EU trade agreements, but the planning for the idea is still in the early stages.)

 

One thing you won't be able to argue, is the fact you can walk into any EU member state embassy, anywhere in the world, and claim access to their services as an EU citizen.  Most EU nations save money by conglomerating their services into single embassies, especially in smaller nations of the world, and instead of having full services, each EU nation employs a few staff in those buildings, allowing for the entire EU region to be served from say, the Danish Embassy, or the French Embassy....

 

The UK will be spending a fortune replacing those services lost, as a few staff overseas will not fix the gaping hole in embassy services.  They'll spend billions upgrading their services to the required levels in years ahead.

[ilovebender.com]

It's like, it's not even worth debating with you people though, because Brexit's happening.

You can say what you like, but the UK's leaving so every argument you make is null and void, you should just accept we're leaving the EU and that the EU is like Russia or China to us (because it will be pretty soon).

 

That's why I don't understand why people are still trying to convince me the EU is the way, because you need only watch the news to see we're leaving. Today was a good day, got that withdrawal through Parliament in the UK. 

 

Yes, we're going to be on the outside, I know, and you can't fight it anyway, so it's stupid people are still clinging to the past.

Edited December 21, 2019 by ilovebender.com

[Raavi]

Enjoy US style consumer protections, environmental protection & health & safety regulations. Hope you love chlorinated chicken, fire-retardant sodas, having zero protection when buying a defective product and having flint quality drinking water. 

[Uncle Sikee Atric]

3 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

It's like, it's not even worth debating with you people though, because Brexit's happening.

You can say what you like, but the UK's leaving so every argument you make is null and void, you should just accept we're leaving the EU and that the EU is like Russia or China to us (because it will be pretty soon).

Alright, you want free trade deals with the rest of the world, I think this transcript from Twitter will give you a fairly good idea of how things are going to go for 'The Plucky Old UK,' if Scotland and NI don't decide to up sticks and make it this position even worse :

 

Trade talks, a prediction: (courtesy of @RussInCheshire)

UK - We don't like our deal
EU - Why not?
UK - We only get 95% of what we want
EU - It only gives us 95% too
UK - We want a new deal that gives us 100% of what we want
EU - But that means we only get 90% of what we want

UK - Yes, but we don't care. We hate you.
EU - Bit rude
UK - We elected people to go to your meetings specifically to say we hate you
EU - We noticed
UK - So we want a new deal, and we want the deal in 11 months or we cancel our existing deal
EU - Wait.. what?

UK - We've put it into law: you give us 100% of what we want in 11 months, or we walk away with 0% of what we want
EU - Erm... suits us!
UK - Wait, what?
EU - Perfect, do it. Ealk away
UK - No, hold on, wait: you have to negotiate, so Boris can win

EU - Why? Right now you have 95% of perfect and we have 95% of perfect. If we negotiate, you get 100% and we get 90%.
UK - That's right
EU - But if we don't negotiate, we still have 95%... and you have 0%
UK - But... no, you're not meant to say that

EU - And if we don't have a deal, we don't have to put up with you sending people to our meetings to say you hate us
UK - The Daily Mail made us do it and then ran away!
EU - So we'll just sit it out for 11 months
UK - Fine, we'll go and make a great deal with the US

US - Yo suckers
UK - Could we have a trade deal please, sir?
US - Sure thing. We want 100% of everything, plus 51% controlling share in the NHS, and you get, let's see... 60% of what you have now
UK - Not good enough
US - Bye
UK - What?
US - Bye. Talks are over. Bye

UK - But we haven't got a deal!
US - We are 26% of world trade, making deals with EU (20%) and China (17%). We don't need your 1.8%.
UK - But we really need a deal, the EU outsmarted us
US - We know. Some of us can read. Not Trump, obviously, but the rest of us. Try India

UK - Hi India, remember us?
India - Oh f*ck, these guys again
UK - We want a trade deal
India - And we want to vastly increase the number of Indians who can live in the UK
UK - We can't do that. Turns out we're, like, properly racist
India - That is brand new information!!

UK - So can we have a deal?
India - Sure. Join the queue
UK - Who's in the queue?
India - USA, China, Brazil, EU, Korea, Canada, Australia... basically everybody. We're kind of a big deal now.
UK - So you'll be ready to negotiate in, what: 11 months?
India - ha ha ha ha ha

UK - What did we say?
India - 11 months? Try 11 years. This sh*t takes ages, bro
UK - But we had a timetable of 11 months with the EU
India - And how did that work out?
UK - erm...
India - Try China

UK - Can we please have a trade deal?
China - Sorry, who are you?
UK - We're Great Britain
China - Great, you say?
UK - Well... once
China - And what do you want?
UK - A trade deal worthy of our status
China - You've got one
UK - No we haven't

China - Yes you have. With the EU. You don't need to renegotiate your trade deals: you need to reassess your status. Cos you're not a mighty nation, you're a small, wet, heavily indebted island on the edge of a globally important trading bloc... which you left, you goons

UK - So, what do you suggest?
China - You already know
...
EU - Hello again. Here to rejoin?
UK - Yes, on the same terms as before.
EU - Oh, I don't think so. Say goodbye to your rebate, hello to the Euro, and bonjour to the Schengen area. You are so dumb.
UK - We hate you!

 

You've got a decade to prove this wrong, because trade deals take that long on average anyway! 

[ilovebender.com]

15 minutes ago, Uncle Sikee Atric said:

One thing you won't be able to argue, is the fact you can walk into any EU member state embassy, anywhere in the world, and claim access to their services as an EU citizen.

No body no where is an EU citizen and the EU has no embassies.

 

If you had a passport, you'd know this. Unless you're taking drugs or something.

You can't get services as something that doesn't exist.

You could be a French citizen or a British ctizen or an Irish citizen etc... With an EU passport, but no one no where is an EU citizen because EU citizenship doesn't exist.

 

If I went to some French embassy in the EU somewhere, let's say Spain, they'd tell me to go to the British embassy if I presented them my passport and asked for help, same if I went to a French embassy in America and done the same; they'd just tell me to go to the British embassy.

 

Here's one I found on Google.

Where does it say EU citizen under nationality you dope.

There's no such thing as an EU citizen.

Edited December 21, 2019 by ilovebender.com

[Uncle Sikee Atric]

6 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

No body no where is an EU citizen and the EU has no embassies.

 

If you had a passport, you'd know this. Unless you're taking drugs or something.

You can't get services as something that doesn't exist.

You could be a French citizen or a British ctizen or an Irish citizen etc... With an EU passport, but no one no where is an EU citizen because EU citizenship doesn't exist.

 

National citizens are basically the same as US State Citizens, where the EU is concerned.  They're still citizens with EU rights of access to EU services.

 

That's the real point here.  Brexiters are pissed the Houses Of Parliament have just stepped a few rungs down the ladder of power and are considered more equal to US state senates while within the EU. 

 

PS : Assuming someone uses drugs is a really unimpressive insult and a fine way to admit you're out of your depth and unable to create a cohesive argument to counter the points on offer.

 

[ilovebender.com]

7 minutes ago, Uncle Sikee Atric said:

National citizens are basically the same as US State Citizens, where the EU is concerned. ..

 

What has this got to do with the British post Brexit though?

And... No one's a citizen of a state in America how we're citizens of our countries in the EU, and no one in the EU's a citizen of the EU like they're citizens of the US.

Because the EU isn't a country, neither are New Mexico or Pennsylvania, so people aren't citizens of these things. They're American citizens, I'm a British citizen, people are French citizens, it's how the world works dumb ass.

You can't go to another European embassy and get EU citizens services because that doesn't exist. EU citizenship doesn't exist. I seem to know more about the EU than you!

Edited December 21, 2019 by ilovebender.com

[Raavi]

11 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

because EU citizenship doesn't exist.

 

Art. 20 TEU, and art. 9 TFEU beg to differ you birdbrained twit.