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Melech

Greece faces early election after PM loses vote on president

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Melech

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Greece heads to an early general election next month after parliament rejected Prime Minister Antonis Samaras's nominee for president on, throwing the country into a new period of political turmoil. (Source) I have checked the risk premium of Greece and it has risen 112,10 points (14.07%) just from this morning till now! Right now it's on 909,100 points. This is really creepy.

This gives me the creeps as the Coalition of the Radical Left (Syriza) leads all the polls:

800px-ElectionMonthlyAverageGraphGreece2

Syriza is a populist, communist party whose policies would ruin Greece even more and turn it into a Cuba-like poor, totalitarian isolated state.

151 seats are required for an absolute majority in the Hellenic Parliament, and Syriza would be very close to it. The polls give them from 130 to 150 seats, and the KKE (communist party) from 13 to 20 seats. So from January 25, the majority of the Hellenic Parliament will be communist.

I have read the crazy, suicidal election manifesto of Syriza. These are some of their policies they want to enforce:

  • Not to pay the public debt and interest due.

(The consequence of this is that no one would buy Greek debt and the state could not get money, so they will not be able to pay salaries, pensions... They will go totally broke)

  • Change the role of the European Central Bank so that it finances states and programs of public investment.

(They think the ECB has infinite money, and they want to turn it into a NGO)

  • Raise income tax to 75% for all incomes over 500,000 euros.

(Obviously, the rich will leave with their money. The poor have nothing. So who will pay? The middle class, that will cease to exist when Syriza will rise to power)

  • Adoption of a tax on financial transactions and a special tax on luxury goods.

(Yes, new taxes! That's what the people needs, to pay even MORE!)

  • Combat the flight of capital abroad.

(So they can rob it as good commies)

  • Cut drastically military expenditures.

(This will make the Turkish imperialists veeery happy)

  • Use buildings of the government, banks and the Church for the homeless.

(Why don't you use your own homes you commies?)

  • Subvention up to 30% of mortgage payments for poor families who cannot meet payments.

(And where will you get the money from in order to do this? Oh, yes, robbing the families trough taxes! Ironic, isn't it?)

  • Increase of subsidies for the unemployed. Increase social protection for one-parent families, the aged, disabled, and families with no income.

(Idem)

  • Fiscal reductions for goods of primary necessity.

(This doesn't sound bad when you read it, but price fixing is lethal to an economy. This will create shortages due to the lack of competition, just like has happened in Venezuela, where they can't even get toilet paper)

  • Nationalisation of banks and big companies.

(Yep, destroy business and free initiative. That will definitely help...)

  • Referendums on treaties and other accords with Europe.

(At least something half-normal, but... If they really do this then they will have referendums almost every day)

  • Demilitarisation of the Coast Guard and anti-insurrectional special troops. Prohibition for police to wear masks or use arms during demonstrations. Change training courses for police so as to underline social themes such as immigration, drugs and social factors.

(So they want to turn the coast guard and the police in some kind of unarmed "popular" political "force")

  • Guarantee human rights in immigrant detention centres; facilitate the reunion of immigrant families.

(1. What do they mean by "human rights"? 2. Greece has the highest unemployment in the EU, so let's bring more people in!!!)

  • Elimination of payments by citizens for national health services.

(So how will you fund the national health service? Money doesn't grow on trees)

  • Abolition of military cooperation with Israel. Support for creation of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders.

(F*ck you! Maybe you prefer to cooperate with terrorist states such as Iran, or anti-West, totalitarian states like China, the DPRK or Venezuela. No, you support Hamas and the destruction of Israel, not an Arab state on the 1967 "borders". When will you support peace? Never, you anti-Semites)

  • Withdrawal from NATO.

(Maybe they think that a military alliance with Cuba, Venezuela, Iran and China is better than an alliance with European and Western democracies)

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

As you can see, this is just an anthology of nonsense. I may understand the Greek people, their country is going through a severe economic crisis, their politicians suck... But I will never understand they are massively voting for such a party, with such crazy, suicidal policies that will ruin and destroy their country. If they want to commit suicide, then they should just jump from a roof, but not to destroy their country. Communism is never the solution or an alternative to anything!

 

Are they stupid??? The Greek people has disappointed me a lot. I have been in Greece more than seven times, in Athens, Rhodes, Santorini, etc. The Greeks I met were very nice people. I can't imagine them voting for such a party. They have other parties apart from Syriza, Nea Dimokratia and Pasok. I think the ones who are voting for Syriza deserve that their parties' policies destroy their lives. I mean, this is just karma, justice. They are destroying their country and harming their fellow countrymen. It seems that the fall of Greece is imminent.

 

But not everything is bad, there are also some pros: I hope this sets an example to the potential voters of the populist Five Star Movement in Italy and the populist Chavista communist party 'Podemos' in Spain. Then they can't say they have not seen what happens when you enforce communist policies in a European country. Although they just need to open a history book or look at Venezuela, don't they?

 

Oh, and for the Syriza foreign supporters that will tell me how 'fascist' I am: if you love and support Syriza so much then I advise you to put your money in a Greek bank or to buy Greek debt in order to show your trust and support for the new Greek government.

 

Well, what do you guys think of all this?

Edited by Palikari

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t3h PeNgU1N oF d00m

This has minimal to no effect on me.

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make total destroy

Syriza isn't communist.

 

Also, do tell me more about your love for democracy.

Edited by make total destroy

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Spaghetti Cat

Reminds me of the old joke:

 

A mayor from Greece travels to Spain for a conference of Mayors. While there he is invited to the host's home for drinks and dinner. When he gets there the Mayor from Greece sees this impressive mansion. Fancy fountains, large swimming pool, the works.

 

While at the gala, the Mayor from Greece asks his host: 'You have a lovely home here sir, but how can you afford such a place on a mayor's salary?'

 

The Mayor from Spain replies: 'Do you see that bridge over there?'

 

From the impressive vista the Mayor from Greece sees a bridge off in the distance. A massive infrastructure project connecting an island to the mainland.

 

'Yes, but what about it?' the Greek mayor responds.

 

'The EU gave us money to build that bridge.' says the Spanish mayor. 'It was supposed to be four lanes, but I was able to change the design. We made it two lanes instead, with the money left over I was able to build my home.'

 

The Greek mayor nods in agreement. From there the host continues with the party on his lavish estate.

 

Several yeast later it is the Greek mayors turn to hold the conference. Not to be outdone, the Greek mayor holds a reception at his own home. The Spanish mayor comes and is totally blown away. The Greek mayor has a mansion on top of a hill twice the size of the Spanish mayor's home. It has huge swimming pools, lush gardens, even gold-plated sinks. Needless to say, the mayor from Spain is impressed. During the party, the Spanish mayor is greeted by his host the Greek mayor.

 

'My friend' the Spanish mayor says 'this is quite spectacular! But how on Earth were you able to afford such a place?'

 

From high on the hilltop, the Greek mayor points off into the distance 'Do you see that bridge over there?'

 

'No' replies the Spanish mayor.

 

The mayor from Greece smiles and continues with his party.

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Melech

Reminds me of the old joke:

 

[...]

Hahahahaha! :D

 

I don't think this happens in Spain or Greece today, but in Romania it does. Anyway, it's a great joke. It made me laugh.

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161isaiah161

If you were trying to make this party sound horrible or something you failed as the more I read about this party the more I like it

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make total destroy

If you were trying to make this party sound horrible or something you failed as the more I read about this party the more I like it

Most of it sounds okay to me, but it's hardly 'radical', let alone 'revolutionary' or 'communist'. Syriza is reformist at best. I suppose they're better than the KKE (Stalinist), but that isn't really saying much.

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Dingdongs

 


  • Change the role of the European Central Bank so that it finances states and programs of public investment.

Lol and how do these lunatics plan to do that?

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Stephan90

Greece is broke, fact. Within the Euro-zone their companies aren't and will never become competitive, because the Euro is around 100% stronger than the Drachme would be. No country in the world can work with a currency that is 100% overvalued regarding the country's productivity. If Greece leaves the Euro zone the Drachme will immediately loose 50% of its value. All Greek debts that are in Euro will become twice as costly for Greece.

 

Greece must leave the Euro and get a debt cut to a debt level that is bearable. Of course the tax payers of all Euro zone countries will loose billions instead of the banks that previously held the Greek bonds before the help credits from the Euro-zone countries.

 

But let's not believe the illusion that the debt problem is only a Greek problem. All industrialized countries have debt problems. Even Switzerland has around 300% of the GDP in debts if you add up the debts from the state, private households and companies. The reason for the debt problems lies in our money system itself. It is impossible to get rid of the debts in our system without getting rid of the book-money. Book-money and debts are two sides of the same medal. Over 90% off all money is book money the rest is central bank money. The amount of book-money automatically rises every year and with it the amount of debts.

 

In the course of time the amount of debts and book-money rises until the point where the mass of the people can't pay the debts within the system. This is the case in Greece. Of course they Euro has accelerated this process. WIthout the Euro the Greek debts would be lower but still growing.

 

There are only three options within the current money system to lower debts of states in general:

 

1. inflation (doesn't work in Greece's case because the debts are in Euro and Greece can't control the European Central Bank)

2. debt cut (this will definitely happen)

3. high taxes on high money assets (would be appropriate for Greece considering the rich people have been largely spared until now)

 

EXTRA: let the system crash, reset all book-money and debts to zero and introduce a whole new money system which doesn't contain the book-money & debt spiral.

 

Another problem for Greece is that unlike in Japan for example the Greek creditors are mostly foreign countries, banks and investors but not the citizens like in Japan. Whoever claims that Greece can pay its debts, if they only save enough, is a fool. It is impossible, no matter who is in the government. It is simply impossible, although our politicians like to claim the opposite. On the one side you have to admit that Greece cheated itself into the EU and the Euro. Whereas the fact that they are in the EU is not the big problem, their Euro membership is a big problem. But now we have the problems and need to find a way out. I can't really understand why Euro-zone politicians don't talk about the Greek natural oil and gas ressources in the mediteranian sea, which are easily worth more than the some hundred billion Euro Greek debts. Give us enough mining licences and we waive you debts. I think this is the only fair solution. As a bonus effect Europe would become more independent from oil and gas imports outside of the EU like from Russia.

Edited by Stephan90

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Mr. House

This is possibly the dumbest post you've ever made, Palikari and that is saying a lot.

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 dice

Yes, more presidential promises!

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Melech

This is possibly the dumbest post you've ever made, Palikari and that is saying a lot.

 

You've just posted insulting bullsh*t. Don't you have anything else to post? You know, something worthy.

 

If you were trying to make this party sound horrible or something you failed as the more I read about this party the more I like it

 

Maybe because you're a communist or an anarchist. Talking to such kind of extremists is just like talking to a wall.

 

Most of it sounds okay to me, but it's hardly 'radical',

 

Well, you're a radical anarcho-communist. It's normal this is ok for you. But... If you don't find this radical, then what's radical for you?

Edited by Palikari

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Doc Rikowski

Pal, couldn't you just post about the news impartially and then give us your opinion instead of fill the OP with all your impartial comments?

 

Anyway, Greece is a mess right now and everything their past governments, the international community and the EU have done so far has failed miserably and has put the population in a shameful and miserable state of poverty. It is no surprise that people want a radical change. Change is welcome when everything else failed. It's called democracy and Greece invented it over 2000 years ago. We have to respect Greece whatever is the outcome of the elections.

 

Also let's please not forget how Greece's debt could be easily solved in a fair and democratic ideal world.*

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/greek-commission-concludes-germany-owes-billions-in-war-reparations-a-893084.html

http://www.vice.com/read/germanys-blood-drenched-debt-could-save-greece

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/27261-germany-s-unpaid-debt-to-greece-albrecht-ritschl-on-germany-s-war-debts-and-reparations

http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2093990,00.html

 

*Just to be clear: I have nothing against the German people, they are victims of their (past and present) governments just like anybody else and I'm sure they'd be willing to pay the debt themselves if it was up to them.

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Mr. House

 

This is possibly the dumbest post you've ever made, Palikari and that is saying a lot.

 

You've just posted insulting bullsh*t. Don't you have anything else to post? You know, something worthy.

 

Well how about this one pal, when the fascists came smashing through Greece 70 years ago, the left wing was the only group beyond the Christians looking out for the Jews and hiding them from the Nazis, so you better cut this antisemetic sh*t out right now. It's god damn insulting to people who genuinely fight against racism to be affronted by your rhetoric. I don't know where you get the conceit.

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sivispacem

Actually, there's a lot of bullsh*t rhetoric from all sides; those who (falsely) cast Syriza as Communist, those who argue they're the salvation of the Greek people, and those who make extremely rudimentary arguments based on paint-by-numbers primary-school-playground economics to try and claim that this is all because they adopted the Euro. They're all naïve, querulant and hilariously wrong.

 

First, Syriza aren't a single defined party but a coalition of left-of centre parties, comprising just about everything from democratic socialists to state capitalists. They may categorise themselves as radical left but this isn't strictly true. This means that many of their policy documents gave been rather scattergun in their approach, picking and choosing different policies from different component parties. But the general direction we have seen the party take over the last few months is away from radical and revolutionary ideas and towards a more typical social democracy model. Now, to address the points initially raised:

 

1) Their primary aim is a renegotiation of the existing debt repayment programme. They've largely accepted that paying back the direct bail-out is a fait accompli; their primary issue is with the continued subsidence loans they're dependent on to keep the lights on. Personally I think the idea if renegotiating the terms of loans you've already received is pretty ridiculous and a recipe for an economic disaster at a time when growth is returning and individual prosperity beginning to rise, but that's a far cry from the sensationalist rubbish you've posted.

 

2) ECB reform can only be enacted by mutual consent. This is an aspiration, not a policy, much like the UK aspiring to reform EU policy on internal migration and free movement of labour.

 

3) France has a 75% top-level income tax, albeit on salaries over 1m. The net result of this has been very little in the way of capital flight, most likely because anyone who actually knows how income tax works knows that the top rate is payable only on the proportion of income above the highest band. So the economic impact is relstively muted; proportionally far less than something like a 50% higher-rate tax on incomes above £100,000 p/a which really does hit the middle classes. Personally I'm in favour of reducing income tax burdens and making up the difference via more progressive taxation but your scaremongering is deeply unhelpful.

 

4) Luxury goods taxes already exist in many countries; they're pretty socially progressive although determinig what constitutes "luxury" is always a bit problematic. If their incorporation can prevent tax hikes for people at the lower end if the pay spectrum an/or go towards increasing employment, therefore reducing the economic burden on the state, then I say good.

 

As for financial transaction taxes, depending on implementation they could either be moderately successful or utterly disastrous. The policy at the moment is pretty unclear so who knows

 

5) Combatting capital flight never really works but hey, whatever. There's only a very limited amount that they can do to practically limit capital flight in the confines of the EU so this strikes me as little more than a nice tag-line.

 

6) Greek military expenditure is 2.5% of GDP, so proportionally higher than the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Brazil, Australia, and for that matter Turkey. There's no reason it couldn't be cut to 1.5-2.0% like pretty much the rest of Europe.

 

7-9) All reasonably workable policies, though how they are funded is the real question.

 

10) Price fixing is commonplace across most of Europe. We set minimum pricing on all sorts of things and legally limit the maximum prices of others.

 

11) Here we can agree to some extent, centralised state ownership of businesses seldom ever works out well.

 

12) A common sentiment across much of Europe.

 

13) Most coast guards are civil rather than military.

 

14) Not even dignifying your "what are human rights" comment with a response.

 

15) Most of Europe has free at the point of access universal healthcare. In fact I'm surprised that Greece doesn't.

 

16) Don't be silly. 1967 borders is about the best that Israel can ever hope for. In fact, pre-second-intifada Israel offered Palestine statehood based on '67 borders. I support the idea of a Palestinian state in '67 borders as does, I dare say, most of the world.

 

As for disengaging military cooperation, with the current climate in the region I'm not at all surprised.

 

17) It wouldn't be the first time a NATO power withdrew. France, circa 1966, also withdrew. A withdraw does not mean a disalignment; to think it does is ridiculous.

 

So, all in all, a combination of some fairly reasonable policies, some questionable ones and you misinterpreting or misrepresenting pretty much everything, though why would I expect anything else from you?

 

-

 

In response to Stephan, when you have to resord to adding government debts and personal debts to support your argument (which is unbelievably silly as they're totally different) you must realise that you've lost sight of the central point?

 

Also, I simply don't buy the notion that the inability for Greece to devalue their currency is a contributing factor in their economic woes. Their current economic woes are entirely a product of market uncertainty; elsewhere their economy is on the mend and actually returning to growth. Historically I still don't see how currency devaluation could have positively impacted them during their financial crisis given that they're a net importer. The presence of the Euro kept interest rates low and stopped imports on which the Greek economy deoended from becoming untenable.

 

There's also the fact that any exit from the Eurozone is an unknown quantity. You act like the negative repercussions of the exit would be isolated to Greece alone but in a shared economic system the chance of knock-on damage to the wider European economy is vasuxally unavoidable. The methodology for exit is still hypothetical and the net result a complete unknown.

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Melech

Pal, couldn't you just post about the news impartially and then give us your opinion instead of fill the OP with all your impartial comments?

 

Mmm... Yes, you're right.

 

Anyway, Greece is a mess right now and everything their past governments, the international community and the EU have done so far has failed miserably and has put the population in a shameful and miserable state of poverty. It is no surprise that people want a radical change. Change is welcome when everything else failed. It's called democracy and Greece invented it over 2000 years ago. We have to respect Greece whatever is the outcome of the elections.

 

I totally agree with you. I understand the Greeks want a radical change, but I can't understand they want a change for the worse voting Syriza (or Golden Dawn). There are other parties in Greece, too.

 

I deeply respect Greece and its people, but I can't respect someone who is voting for such a party, because that party hates me and Israel, among many other reasons. I also tend to look at people as individuals and not as part of a group.

 

Also let's please not forget how Greece's debt could be easily solved in a fair and democratic ideal world.*

 

Exactly.

 

Germany should have already paid the debt it owes Greece. But what is Germany doing instead? Lending money to Greece with very high interest rates and forcing Greece to buy German submarines, not to mention German politicians are asking Greece to sell its islands and monuments to Germany. This is deeply insulting and humiliating.

 

I don't like what Germany is doing. In the past they tried to control Europe with two world wars, and they failed. Now they are trying to do it through the euro and the economy. It seems that they never learn from their history. But fortunately today most young Germans are not like this.

 

*Just to be clear: I have nothing against the German people, they are victims of their (past and present) governments just like anybody else and I'm sure they'd be willing to pay the debt themselves if it was up to them.

 

I agree with you that most Germans would choose to pay the debt they owe Greece, but I think we can't say they are victims of their governments as they have chosen these governments. They simply had what they asked for.

Edited by Palikari

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Doc Rikowski

15) Most of Europe has free at the point of access universal healthcare. In fact I'm surprised that Greece doesn't.

 

Not sure how it works in Greece but maybe it is comparable to Portugal where healthcare is basically free but there are still some direct payments you do in certain situations (a 20€ tax to pay for minor hospital's emergency room services and some small amounts for certain medical exams).

 

EDIT: just read that Greece had a free healthcare system that has been recently reduced due to the austerity measures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Greece

 

Great post btw. :^:

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Melech

Well how about this one pal, when the fascists came smashing through Greece 70 years ago, the left wing was the only group beyond the Christians looking out for the Jews and hiding them from the Nazis, so you better cut this antisemetic sh*t out right now. It's god damn insulting to people who genuinely fight against racism to be affronted by your rhetoric. I don't know where you get the conceit.

 

Yes, but now we are in 2014, not in the 40s. The left and the world have changed a lot since then. Today's left has nothing to do with that old left.

 

Today the anti-Semites are the leftists (and the right-wing extremists, but this is not new). Leftists only like us when we are in trains heading to Auschwitz, not when we have our country in our land and defend ourselves. They don't like us when we are equal, sovereign and independent.

 

Syriza is an anti-Semitic party that hates Israel to death. Look at what their candidates say about Jews: http://www.thepressproject.net/article/55794/The-bizarre-and-anti-semitic-conspiracy-theories-of-the-SYRIZA-candidate-for-Regional-Governor-of-Western-Macedonia

 

I recommend you to read the book Making David Into Goliath by Joshua Muravchik. It's great and explains this phenomenon very well.

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sivispacem

Syriza is not antisemitic. They're not even really anti-Israel aside from their desire to see a Palestinian state created along 1967 borders, which let's be fair is a view held by pretty much f*cking everyone in the world who isn't a Zionist extremist.

 

The views of single individuals aren't representative of wider political parties. Especially when parties bring on board individuals from other smaller parties in attempts to widen support, or as was the case in this example support domestic candidates that aren't actually members of Syriza.

 

I really rather resent the idea that anyone who supports the notion of a Palestinian state, especually the really f*cking small one which would be created according to '67 borders, is antisemitic. In fact, I've had enough of that horse-sh*t.

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make total destroy

 

Today the anti-Semites are the leftists (and the right-wing extremists, but this is not new). Leftists only like us when we are in trains heading to Auschwitz, not when we have our country in our land and defend ourselves. They don't like us when we are equal, sovereign and independent.

 

The left is no more antisemitic than it was 70 years ago. (i.e., not at all.)

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a20characterusername

 

 

Never, you anti-Semites)

 

 

So when and where did "antisemitic" start meaning "anti-Israel"? You know that many of those Arabs your people love killing and otherwise constantly sh*tting on so much are also semitic, yeah?

 

At this point I can't tell if you're (perhaps willfully) ignorant of the world around you, or if you're just a straight up Jewish Supremacist.

I really rather resent the idea that anyone who supports the notion of a Palestinian state, especually the really f*cking small one which would be created according to '67 borders, is antisemitic. In fact, I've had enough of that horse-sh*t.

Anyone who doesn't unquestionably support Israel, sympathizes with Palestinians, or even argues with a Jew, is antisemitic.

 

E: stuff

Edited by a20characterusername

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GTA_stu

I think Palikari is always trying to steer discussions onto Israel in irrelevant topics because there is currently no relevant topic for discussing Israel. Why don't we make him happy and give him a a whole thread about the Israeli conflict, and drop the ridiculous ban on making topics about it. Then we can talk about the greenline, and WHY IT NEEDS TO BE SHAT ALL OVER FOR MAKE GLORIOUS ISRAEL.

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Stephan90

@ Sivispacem, of course public and private debts are linked. If the state makes austerity politics and saves money then the private debts are rising faster. This backfires on the public debts because less taxes are paid and more companies go broke, resulting in more unemployed people who need financial support from the state. Greece is the best example for that. Greece had to cut down its expenditures resulting in a declining economy and a GDP loss of over 20% within a few years and nearly 30% unemployment rate at the peak. Despite the austerity politics the public debts have increased, while the private debts have increased also. The total amount of debts (private and public) is always rising: in Germany, in France, in the United States in literally every significant industrialized country.

 

The Euro has definetely accelerated the debt growth in Greece. Greece is an importer for many agricultural goods for which they were an exporter previously when they had the Drachme. This goes also for other goods. The reason for that is that the strong Euro resulted in the people wanting to buy more foreign goods and on the other side the companies were not able to export their goods for a competitive price.

 

An Exit of Greece from the Euro wouldn't be a big threat for the Euro zone. Top economist Michael Hüther from the German institute of Economy agrees with me. Better an ending with scare than scare without ending.

 

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/eurokrise/griechenland/huethen-euro-austritt-griechenlands-verkraftbar-13345415.html

 

@ DocRikowski, I can tell you that I am not willing to pay reparations considering we already lost 8 billion Euros during the first debt cut with the socialised bank Hypo Real Estate and considering our debts are also sky high. I have nothing against waiving Greece debts, but then they should give us something in exchange like mining licences for oil and gas in the mediteranian sea. I am in general against a debt cut as long as Greece stays in the €-zone. There is no point in waiving debts, which are a symptom, while keeping the Euro as one of the main reasons for the symptom. Because we would have to do one debt cut after another.

 

If you read the comments under all articles about the reparation claims of Syriza on German news services you would realise that the overwhelming majority of commentators is not willing to pay any reparations and instead is really pissed about it and also about how our politicians are depicted in SS-uniforms and stuff like that. On the other side a big percentage realises that despite the corruption and tax evasion in Greece the majority of the people suffer from what their politicians did and that they didn't get much from the huge help credits, most of the money was directly forwarded to the debitors (banks). But that doesn't justify all the hate against us. This harms the willingness of our people to accept more help credits. Nobody of the simple people here ever had a chance to stop the austerity politics in South Europe that is promoted by our government. The chancelor Merkel labeled the austerity politics as "without any alternative". There was no open public debate about it here and enemies of these politics were denounced. But let's not forget that Germany was not the only one to promote it. The international monetary fund was also in favour of the austerity politics. Personally, I am against the high amount of the austerity measures but I think that I have already made it clear previously.

Edited by Stephan90

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Melech

So when and where did "antisemitic" start meaning "anti-Israel"? You know that many of those Arabs your people love killing and otherwise constantly sh*tting on so much are also semitic, yeah?

 

Have you even read the article, habibi? Hint: it doesn't mention Israel, not even one time!

 

Love to kill? No, it's them who love to kill infidels. As Golda Meir (z"l) said, “We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us.”

 

The Oxford Dictionary definition for anti-Semitism is "Hostility to or prejudice against Jews".

 

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

 

I think you should check the meaning of the words before using them and making a fool of yourself.

 

At this point I can't tell if you're (perhaps willfully) ignorant of the world around you, or if you're just a straight up Jewish Supremacist.

 

From who did I listen this expression last time...? From David Duke! Is he your friend?

 

Anyone who doesn't unquestionably support Israel, sympathizes with Palestinians, or even argues with a Jew, is antisemitic.

 

It's you the only one who has claimed so, not me, Jewish representatives or the Government of Israel.

 

This is a prejudice anti-Semites commonly hold. Tell me, are you an anti-Semite? Just asking, I am not implying anything.

 

Your expression and your prejudices make me doubt.

 

 

I think Palikari is always trying to steer discussions onto Israel in irrelevant topics because there is currently no relevant topic for discussing Israel. Why don't we make him happy and give him a a whole thread about the Israeli conflict, and drop the ridiculous ban on making topics about it. Then we can talk about the greenline, and WHY IT NEEDS TO BE SHAT ALL OVER FOR MAKE GLORIOUS ISRAEL.

 

You're wrong, my friend. I don't want to discuss about Israel, but I won't keep silent when Israel is insulted and/or defamed. What would you do if Israel were your country?

 

It's not me who started talking about Israel. I have never started talking about Israel on threads that had nothing to do with Israel. It seems that many users love to bash Israel to annoy me.

 

If you guys want to discuss with me about Israel please send me a PM. I think we should respect that ban although it may seem ridiculous.

 

The left is no more antisemitic than it was 70 years ago. (i.e., not at all.)

 

I wish you were right, but sadly you're not.

Edited by Palikari

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make total destroy

 

 

The left is no more antisemitic than it was 70 years ago. (i.e., not at all.)

 

I wish you were right, but sadly you're not.

 

Nah, I'm definitely right.

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Mr. Scratch

 

Reminds me of the old joke:

 

[...]

Hahahahaha! :D

 

I don't think this happens in Spain or Greece today, but in Romania it does. Anyway, it's a great joke. It made me laugh.

 

Pfff, that place was always a sh*thole.

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Dingdongs

17) It wouldn't be the first time a NATO power withdrew. France, circa 1966, also withdrew. A withdraw does not mean a disalignment; to think it does is ridiculous.

 

It's my understanding France didn't withdraw from the alliance but rather took their troops out of SHAPE/NATO chain of command. Which is a lot less of a "big deal" than this proposed leaving of the alliance this Greek party wants to do.

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sivispacem

@ Sivispacem, of course public and private debts are linked. If the state makes austerity politics and saves money then the private debts are rising faster.

This isn't even remotely true. There's no correlation between increasing household debt and austerity-related policies. In fact, times of negative growth are generally characterised by a slowing in the growth of personal debt. Now, there's a sector-specific correlstion between debts as a proportion of income amongst direct and some indirect providers of services to public sector organisations in times of decreased spending, and to some extent a general correlation between increasing debt as a proportion of revenues across the board, but primary a product of decreasing revenue rather than increasing borrowing.

 

This backfires on the public debts because less taxes are paid and more companies go broke, resulting in more unemployed people who need financial support from the state.

To some extent yes, but this has nothing to do with increased borrowing. Companies don't borrow their way out of negative growth; that's a fast track to insolvency.

 

The total amount of debts (private and public) is always rising

Regardless of economic conditions. Private debt inflates slower during economic downturns than during periods of economic growth.

 

The Euro has definetely accelerated the debt growth in Greece.

Says whom? You?

 

Greece is an importer for many agricultural goods for which they were an exporter previously when they had the Drachme.

And this is a product of the transition to the Euro, rather than of Greece's transition to a tertiary economy which accompanied but was not a product of it?

 

The reason for that is that the strong Euro resulted in the people wanting to buy more foreign goods and on the other side the companies were not able to export their goods for a competitive price.

Except this doesn't make sense. Greek wages are considerably lower than other European countries. Production costs should therefore should be comparatively lower. So, explain to me why you think that the Euro makes Greece less able to profit from exports?

 

Let's take a look at the Greek economy briefly. It's primarily a tertiary economy with a reasonably large agricultural sector and a very large public sector. It's dependency on this sector is the primary reason for the significant job losses in the wake of the Greek financial crisis.

 

You seem to forget that Greece has spent a decades defaulting on debts and spending beyond it's means. Misrepresenting their figures to join the EU was pretty stupid, but the notion that it was because of the Euro is simply false. Membership of the EU enabled them to borrow at preferential rates but it was their decision to spend borrowing on inflating wages rather than dealing with existing existing structural debt was the major factor in their subsequent economic collapse. Economic mismanagement is economic mismanagement regardless of your currency. In fact, it was the continued membership of the EU which made borrowing rates relatively manageable at the height of the crash- last time Greece defaulted their interest rates were nearly 20%.

 

Top economist Michael Hüther from the German institute of Economy agrees with me.

Don't you mean you agree with him?

 

There's a weight of economic opinion on both sides. For every notable economist you can find saying that a Greek Euro exit is manageable, i'm pretty sure I can find a notable economist saying it would result in a total collapse of the Eurozone. The reality is probably somewhere in the middle.

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161isaiah161

 

This is possibly the dumbest post you've ever made, Palikari and that is saying a lot.

 

You've just posted insulting bullsh*t. Don't you have anything else to post? You know, something worthy.

 

If you were trying to make this party sound horrible or something you failed as the more I read about this party the more I like it

 

Maybe because you're a communist or an anarchist. Talking to such kind of extremists is just like talking to a wall.

 

Most of it sounds okay to me, but it's hardly 'radical',

 

Well, you're a radical anarcho-communist. It's normal this is ok for you. But... If you don't find this radical, then what's radical for you?

How am I a communist?

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make total destroy

Because you're an anarchist. Anarchism is communism.

 

Edited by make total destroy

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