To those who say that a crime simulator wouldn't be fun.

[MonsterCockDude]

First of all, when people talk about wanting more realism or simulation they still want the game to be exciting. No they don't mean they want you to play as a bootleg movie salesman or commit tax fraud or do boring more common crime.

We can even flip this the other way and say that a crime simulator where you played as the police, and had to spend hours standing still at a protest doing pretty much nothing, or had to go on endless domestic violence calls or had to spend a half an hour at a speed trap waiting for cars to come by would be boring as well.

And yes, the crimes that are shown in a crime simulator or GTA are immoral and would be controversial and are not something to idolize.

However, watching an episode of cops, or gang documentaries, or crime movies, or listening to music about crime all of this showcases or makes it look interesting or exciting. Think about all of the great mob movies or gang movies or movies about cops or robbers, how many of them needed to have massive fake and silly shootouts, or gang members firing RPG's outside of helicopters or any sort of gimmicks that these games had? The more gritty, and believable the movie seems, the better they seem to do. Yet with video games we still have not reached this level. Video games are still stuck at cartoon super hero levels of crime, as opposed to serious gritty levels.

A simulator where you played as a SWAT team member or gangbanger or bank robber or pimp or drug dealer or even a crazy pissed off guy who goes on a rampage or any sort of high intensity crime would in no way be boring at all. As a matter of fact, as a simulator it would be way more exciting then a dumbed down game that is simple and easy and doesn't represent these scenarios at all.



In just about every sort of genre the best games these days have evolved and tend to go on and be more realistic and try to simulate the activity they represent.


Just go on youtube and look at the sim football community who constantly hates on Madden. Loads of commentators who grew up playing and watching football who want an actual game that plays football find flaws and try to tell EA sports how to fix them.


Just go on youtube and look at the iRacing, and Project Cars sim racing community.


Just go on youtube and look at the amount of PC simulator titles that make simulators out of really niche and somewhat boring things ( like driving big trucks or a bus, or driving in traffic ).


Just go on youtube and look at the detailed community of people who realistic first person shooters, games like ARMA which are becoming more and more popular who used to play OFP, project reality, insurgency, red orchestra and many others.


Go to operation sports or the EA forums and look at the amount of people upset and disappointed that NHL or EA UFC and other games are not good enough and do not represent the sport properly and have issues.

Look at the dedicated boxing fanbase asking for boxing simulators.

Look at the fans of MLB The Show who like it because it simulates the sport.

Look at how the Skate series which offered much more realistic skate boarding compared to Tony Hawk destroyed that series.


Now look at the dead genres.

Where are the NBA Jams? The NFL Blitz? Ready 2 Rumble Boxing? Tony Hawk Pro Skater? Why did Saints Row turn in to a joke franchise? Why are the Need For Speed and Test Drive games below and seen as inferior to the Gran Turismo and Forza's?



It's because the simulators have evolved and actually represent the activity that the game is about, it shows the skills and strategies that one would need to apply ( and since it's a game the mental aspect matters more as opposed to the physical or the ability to even partake since most people will never actually be able to be a race car driver in real life, or will play pro sports or be a pro boxer, but as a fan of those activities or sports they could atleast play a simulation in a game that someone who is knowledgeable and understands the sport or activity could win ).

It's because the simulators are the ones that give the player the most immersion when they play.

It's because the simulators are the ones with the best details.



So how could a game that simulates, pulling off heists, robbing stores, pimping ho's, being in the gun or drug trade, muggings, or being a cop who stops those crimes be seen as boring, when people love to listen to music or watch movies about those activities, when the majority of players of the game will never do these things in real life, and when they can be simulated and shown as a high risk dangerous activity with a lot of game play going on.



Not once has a legit crime simulator came out as far as I am aware. Even a game playing as a police who has to stop crimes that was a simulator and focused on exciting crimes could make for a really great and revolutionary game.


Also before anyone says that GTA was never meant to be realistic or a simulator, remember that video game series evolves, when GTA first started out it was a 2D top down view game, probably nobody thought it would turn into a free roam 3D first person game with the world and map it has now in the game. When GTA San Andreas came out, it was obvious the PS2 could not make the world or AI or game play mechanics realistic or quality, so it focused on quantity, the moment R* got better hardware they tried to evolve the gameplay mechanics and make it a bit more realistic for GTA IV and they carried through with this for RDR and for LA Noire as well and eventually dumbed it back down a bit for GTA V.

Early sports games didn't start out as simulators either, games weren't able to put in realistic physics engines, or crowds, or game play mechanics.

Early boxing games you couldn't even punch on the move, or slip punches at all angles.

Early racing games, didn't have good car physics or weather effecting the track and some racing games still haven't even been able to evolve a good car damage system.

Tony Hawk games had you skate in crazy places, do crazy tricks that nobody does in real life, do goofy challenges, and got destroyed by a series that made it so people actually had a learning curve and took a while before people could consistently land 360 flips and be able to do certain kind of grinds, and focused more on realistic skateboarding and filming and lines.


So why should crime games not evolve? Why should crime games still have you do silly missions where you get into shootouts with 100s of braindead cops and sponge up bullets, with no real repercussions after that? Why is it that crime games are still stuck in super hero mode?

[Rooster1983]

Sounds good. Some people forget that GTA started with the player being a cop who gets penalized for commiting crimes (speeding, running red lights, hit and run, ect.). So when people say "This is a criminal game not a cop simulator", I laugh. If anybody does not believe me you can read all about it in the book "Jacked."

[Bobbyleez]

Sounds good. Some people forget that GTA started with the player being a cop who gets penalized for commiting crimes (speeding, running red lights, hit and run, ect.). So when people say "This is a criminal game not a cop simulator", I laugh. If anybody does not believe me you can read all about it in the book "Jacked."

Although I understand where you're coming from, the game turned out to NOT be a cop simulator... So your point is kind of moot, or at least it becomes moot after what the franchise has become.

 

EDIT: I assume you're talking about race'n'chase? Which have you the option to be either a cop or a criminal? /EDIT.

 

The idea of a crime simulator sounds like a load of PR bullsh*t and controversy gold mine... R* is already being harassed with lawsuits and controversies left and right (although one could admit the franchise pie at this point is just so big everyone wants a piece of it)...

 

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, it's just that yes, we're in the simulator age of gaming.. But a crime simulator is pushing it a bit IMHO.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Bobbyleez

[MonsterCockDude]

 

Sounds good. Some people forget that GTA started with the player being a cop who gets penalized for commiting crimes (speeding, running red lights, hit and run, ect.). So when people say "This is a criminal game not a cop simulator", I laugh. If anybody does not believe me you can read all about it in the book "Jacked."

Although I understand where you're coming from, the game turned out to NOT be a cop simulator... So your point is kind of moot, or at least it becomes moot after what the franchise has become.

 

EDIT: I assume you're talking about race'n'chase? Which have you the option to be either a cop or a criminal? /EDIT.

 

The idea of a crime simulator sounds like a load of PR bullsh*t and controversy gold mine... R* is already being harassed with lawsuits and controversies left and right (although one could admit the franchise pie at this point is just so big everyone wants a piece of it)...

 

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, it's just that yes, we're in the simulator age of gaming.. But a crime simulator is pushing it a bit IMHO.

 

Grand Theft Auto has pretty much always pushed the envelope and been controversial though.

 

Chances are with first person being in the game, that's just a step in the next direction which will probably be getting the game in first person and virtual reality on the PC version and eventually for GTA VI with virtual reality probably being better technology by that time and them having years to develop on next gen consoles and on better PC hardware you will probably see some real step up in the game play to warrant that virtual reality going on.

[The Dedito Gae]

If we are technical, IV is the crime simulator, not V, gta V it's a action movie simulator.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Midnight Hitman

[Crystal3lf]

If we are technical, IV is the crime simulator, not V, gta V it's a action movie simulator.

Actually I think Chinatown Wars would be a more serious "crime simulator". Since you actually go round making/selling/buying drugs.

[ana lill]

Great analysis OP! Never thought about the evolution of gaming in that context before.

 

I do agree with the point that games that wants to simulate a real life activity has become a whole lot better at doing so, e.g. fifa/PES series, Richard Burns Rally, project cars, flight/train/warfare simulators + many others, as you mention.

 

GTA is also a great simulation, but not of the life of a petty criminal. It’s a great simulation of the undertakings of superhero criminals. My point is that GTA V could have taken a more realistic approach, but it’s always been over the top and that’s what the fan base has come to expect. And with the record breaking sales of V I don’t think that will change anytime soon.

 

I’m not getting my hopes up, but I secretly wish for the CnC/Heist update to bring us a different lobby from free roam where everything is scaled down (a lot). The free roam to do all the crazy stuff and to engage in all that GTA has to offer (which I find massively impressive), and a CnC/Heist lobby where you have to be a lot more cautious and where you would have to lay low, plan your load out, avoid getting pulled over for speeding on your way to carry out a heist etc.

 

Basically I agree with you; It would totally rock to play a much more down to earth open world crime simulator without tanks/jets/RPG’s/granades/stickybombs etc. and where you would get arrested at sight for waiving a gun around in public.

[beretta-gt88]

I think GTA needs to go back to it's Single Player roots and drop this online nonsense because Multiplayer is turning into Sims all the GTA's I played in the 3D era were better than these HD era GTA's IV sucked because MP held it back from the breakthrough that was San Andras and now MP again is holding
V back now with the new CG version the world is more alive then it was not just graphics but everything got a overhaul it seems more of a unrated V vs LG V. If MP didn't exist just imagine how amazing and huge the world could of been I believe it could of been 3 city's instead of 1

[CarlitoDorito]

I think MP funds new stuff, because millions play it every day, a lot of them buy sharks cards. So it's good for something

 

 

As long as it's exciting, real life things tend to be boring in games (try heavy rain, you brush the guys teeth) Half arcade and half sim would be good.

[jp9865]

I think the main problem with a crime simulator is how would you deal with the police response? Obviously in real life, the crime would be investigated etc. This would lead to you being hunted down. Now laying low isn't going to be fun if you have to do it after every crime you commit. Also is being arrested and sitting in jail a part of the crime simulation? Surely it would have to be but that would also be boring. Virtual life imprisonment for murder? Maybe 25 years with good behaviour. Only if it's your first crime. I'm guessing in a crime sim that it won't be.

 

Also how are you dealing with damage in a simulator? You get shot in a robbery, but you can't go to hospital due to being a criminal. So you go to your "doctor" who will do a cowboy job removing the bullet etc. So you have to spend time healing. What's the healing time from bullet wounds? What you going to do then? Simulate sitting at home, hobbling around taking your medicine etc.

 

That's why most simulator games are so niche. So they can be a full simulation of that event or sport.

crime just has too many variables for a sim game.

[woggleman]

It would be fun but it is not what GTA should be.

[vengeancehawk]

NBA 2k over NBA Jam? No thank you

[MonsterCockDude]

I think the main problem with a crime simulator is how would you deal with the police response? Obviously in real life, the crime would be investigated etc. This would lead to you being hunted down. Now laying low isn't going to be fun if you have to do it after every crime you commit. Also is being arrested and sitting in jail a part of the crime simulation? Surely it would have to be but that would also be boring. Virtual life imprisonment for murder? Maybe 25 years with good behaviour. Only if it's your first crime. I'm guessing in a crime sim that it won't be.

 

Also how are you dealing with damage in a simulator? You get shot in a robbery, but you can't go to hospital due to being a criminal. So you go to your "doctor" who will do a cowboy job removing the bullet etc. So you have to spend time healing. What's the healing time from bullet wounds? What you going to do then? Simulate sitting at home, hobbling around taking your medicine etc.

 

That's why most simulator games are so niche. So they can be a full simulation of that event or sport.

crime just has too many variables for a sim game.

 

For getting shot.

 

Low health+ low regenerating health should make it so your guy isn't soaking up tons of damage. If you survive a firefight but get a hit few times, you could just have it so your player is said to have called up a crime doctor to get himself healed when he goes to sleep ( when the game saves ) or when you switch characters.

 

Or you could have it so your guy could die forever and only the other characters are playable which would make the game about being able to pull off these crimes and survive ( maybe put in leaderboards to see who could make the most money and be the most successful criminal before being killed off ).

 

Or you could just have it so the game reloads to your last save when your guy dies.

 

 

A lot of things they could do, also this would make being smart in a shootout and using body armor very important.

 

 

 

For how would police react, well I posted in another thread that this game has stunguns, spike strips, guard dogs, nightsticks, tear gas and the police pretty much don't ever use them. When wanted by the police, they will try and chase you and arrest you as opposed to killing you unless you pose a serious threat to them, they will try and restrain at close quarters using stun guns or nightsticks or try to flush you out of cover or a building with tear gas or a guard dog, or could try and end a car chase by deploying spike strips.

 

 

Also for the investigations thing in Mafia 2 they had visual investigations although they didn't really do much gameplay wise, it could just be implied in the game that the cops investigations are pretty much incompetent and that your character is not leaving around any DNA evidence ( he's not shedding hair, unless he had sex with a hooker is not leaving semen around, unless he got shot is not bleeding all over ), and that the player could wear gloves, use illegal untraceable weapons and ammo so the only real lead that the police would get, is the player's appearance or vehicle. Which if he changes those things would get him fully free of the police being after him.

 

 

 

 

This would also make the crime more tactical as you would have to make decisions like if you want to buy illegal weapons from the black market since it won't be traced to you, or buy a pistol or shotgun or rifle from an ammunation for "self defense", or if you want to wear a ski mask and draw obvious attention to you but keep your appearance concealed, or if you want to steal a vehicle to use for a crime and then abandon it or torch it somewhere but have to deal with getting the car and not getting an APB on a stolen car, or using your own car which if you never get spotted getting into you wouldn't have to worry about the APB or abandoning.

 

 

 

Also when the player gets arrested, again the game could have it so he's in jail for a specific amount of time and he either needs to bust out or has to pass his time off and you can use the other characters with the character switch.

 

Or the game could just reload to the last point.

 

Also on topic, just went on twitch at the time of this post ARMA 3 has more viewers then GTA V does, and most of the ARMA 3 streams are of real life simulator servers ( which is supposed to simulate your guy playing a regular character in a massive free roam map with a bunch of other people where he can do all sorts of legal or illegal jobs ) and even Euro Truck Simulator 2 only has 80 less viewers compared to GTA V which isn't much.

[CarlitoDorito]

I'd love a realism mode, as an optional mode for V. Bullet wounds need to be bandaged, a lot less health, so breaking into a military base has consequences. police are more like real police, you have to eat and drink, sleep too or you pass out, exercise if you want, breaking into houses and stuff, you can't carry all weapons and loads of ammo , it would be an entirely new challenge.

[RedChuCKz_]

Sounds good. Some people forget that GTA started with the player being a cop who gets penalized for commiting crimes (speeding, running red lights, hit and run, ect.). So when people say "This is a criminal game not a cop simulator", I laugh. If anybody does not believe me you can read all about it in the book "Jacked."

I think you got GTA mixed with Driver the game.

[MonsterCockDude]

I'd love a realism mode, as an optional mode for V. Bullet wounds need to be bandaged, a lot less health, so breaking into a military base has consequences. police are more like real police, you have to eat and drink, sleep too or you pass out, exercise if you want, breaking into houses and stuff, you can't carry all weapons and loads of ammo , it would be an entirely new challenge.

Yes and a challenge that makes the world feel more even more realistic and scales the game back down to being a crime game, as opposed to a game that has became so easy that to make it challenging they have to throw in massive fake shootouts and wacky gimmicks.

[White Hot Speed]

Forza is boring. I had a 100 times more fun with Midnight Club, TDU and now The Crew which is FKN Immense. This obsession with simulation needs to end.

 

First of all Tony Hawk was sequeled to death by the time Skate rolled around. But Tonk Hawk games we're skillful, fast, combo heavy, and awesome... Mario, Zelda, Wipeout, F-zero, Street Fighter, Mortal, Kombat, Pacman, Halo, Donkey Kong, Final Fantasy, all arcade games. Arcade is > Sim. Just like FPS > Resolution. (<sorry, had to throw that in there).

[MonsterCockDude]

Forza is boring. I had a 100 times more fun with Midnight Club, TDU and now The Crew which is FKN Immense. This obsession with simulation needs to end.

 

First of all Tony Hawk was sequeled to death by the time Skate rolled around. But Tonk Hawk games we're skillful, fast, combo heavy, and awesome... Mario, Zelda, Wipeout, F-zero, Street Fighter, Mortal, Kombat, Pacman, Halo, Donkey Kong, Final Fantasy, all arcade games. Arcade is > Sim. Just like FPS > Resolution. (<sorry, had to throw that in there).

A lot of the franchises you named in that list is dead.

 

Also Final Fantasy is one of the worst game series of all time that lasted as long as it did, how people could get excited over playing menu based garbage like that is beyond me anyway. Games like Mario, Zelda, Pacman, Donkey Kong, Mortal Kombat, and Street Fighter all were amazing games and series when simulation games were not possible, and yes they were or are very good game series but a sim fighting destroys an arcade fighting game and well it's not really possible to make a simulator platformer like Mario or Donkey Kong or a sim game like Pacman.

[Fuzzknuckles]

What about those of us that just want a fun open world game that has bits of crime related activity in it, but don't want a full crime simulator?

Imagine how sad you'll be when you see all the threads saying R* have betrayed their core fans and have...

 

Oh, sh*t. We're there already, aren't we?

[White Hot Speed]

double

Edited December 17, 2014 by White Hot Speed

[MonsterCockDude]

What about those of us that just want a fun open world game that has bits of crime related activity in it, but don't want a full crime simulator?

 

Imagine how sad you'll be when you see all the threads saying R* have betrayed their core fans and have...

 

Oh, sh*t. We're there already, aren't we?

Which is why I have always said that R* should implement options that let you toggle things on or off.

 

Auto aim on or off, HUD on or off, hardcore or "realistic" mode on or off and all of that.

[White Hot Speed]

GTA, Cod, Battlefield, Red Dead, Wow, Starcraft, Skyrim, Fallout, Dark Souls... keep going?

 

It still stands that Arcade > Sim

[MonsterCockDude]

Sorry failed to mention that post was the juxtaposition. GTA, Cod, Battlefield, Red Dead, Skyrim, Fallout, Dark Souls... keep going?

 

In seriousness the melding of both is actually where the future of gaming lies imo. However, my opinion it still stands that Arcade > Sim

Red Dead gave players a realistic or hardcore mode, it wasn't a sim game but it's probably among the most realistic in terms of story and gameplay in the free roam genre.

 

GTA, COD, Battlefield are all also among the most massively advertised game series as well, with COD and Battlefield being on just about every console out and obviously catering to pick up and play easy gameplay, yet games like ARMA 3 which is a buggy unpolished simulator only playable on the PC with mods create by randoms still gets more views then those games do on twitch streams.

[White Hot Speed]

Arma zombies yeah... Counter Strike, Minecraft, Team Fortress,

Track Mania, Guilty Gear XRD, Borderlands, King of The Fighters, Little Big Planet

Left 4 Dead, Dota 2, LOL, The Witcher, Mirrors Edge, Terraria, Half Life, Mass Effect

Gears Of War.

[MonsterCockDude]

 

Arma zombies yeah... Counter Strike, Minecraft, Team Fortress,

Track Mania, Guilty Gear XRD, Borderlands, King of The Fighters, Little Big Planet

Left 4 Dead, Dota 2, LOL, The Witcher, Mirrors Edge, Terraria, Half Life, Mass Effect

Gears Of War.

 

ARMA 3 and Day Z are separated. Mirrors Edge and Team Fortress and Gears of War are not that popular anymore. The rest of those games came from era's when simulators were not possible or are in genre's that are obviously not meant to house sim games ( LBP, Minecraft, RTS ).

[White Hot Speed]

I listed 40, you listed 2. What's there to argue? lol

 

V section... always leave 'em laughin'

[Crimson Flam3s]

It's sad that a lot of people here feels ok with the lack of crimes and or activities in free roam.

 

Simulator doesn't always mean it's gonna be 100 percent realistic and have the boring things in it.

 

A good "simulator" will use core RL mechanics and it still keep things fun and practical.

 

Look at that lspd mod on iv, it's pretty entertaining and it was made by modders. Wouldn't take long to do with R* knowledge and man power.

 

Police missions and more simple crimes like drug dealing with trevor and hustling with franlkin would have been fun.

 

A hardcore mode would aid as well. The only way this game gives anyone difficulty is by the numbers which is lame.

 

Games like the last of us in survival or grounded difficulty could make you sh*t your pants vs 4 or hell even 3 guys.

 

It's even impossible to have shootouts in the hood without the annoying police.

 

Why aren't therr lester perks like online to make crimes invisible to police?

 

The game is great but a big fail in some areas imo.

[MonsterCockDude]

I listed 40, you listed 2. What's there to argue? lol

 

V section... always leave 'em laughin'

Yet, why is it that in every sports game the arcade games died off yet the games that try to simulate the sport do the best?

 

Why is it that the top racing games simulate racing?

 

Why is it that niche PC only simulators with awful advertisement like ARMA 3 or Euro Truck Simulator or games like World of Tanks or War Thunder are able to even compete on Twitch with popular games like Call of Duty or Destiny that had massive advertisement campaigns and are on pretty much every console?

 

 

Just about every game you listed were games that got established fanbases before simulators were even possible, do you think a game series like F-Zero or Wipeout if it came out today, would be seen as anything other then an interesting Indie racer? Same goes for the fighting games you listed, they are indie level for today, as a matter of fact the reason why EA UFC was such a failure was because the game is not sim enough and let's players use stupid fighting tactics and be successful ( like being able to teep across the octagon, throwing hook combos of 8 punches in a row, constantly spamming the get up from the bottom position on the mount, using exploits to people in clinch, double leg kick to head kick combination ) and doesn't allow good real fighting tactics to be used successfully ( like head movement and slipping punches, struggling for a take down, half of the attacks from the clinch, keeping people pinned against the cage ) the technology is getting better year after year, if events are exciting in real life why wouldn't they be exciting if properly simulated in a game?

[MonsterCockDude]

It's sad that a lot of people here feels ok with the lack of crimes and or activities in free roam.

 

Simulator doesn't always mean it's gonna be 100 percent realistic and have the boring things in it.

 

A good "simulator" will use core RL mechanics and it still keep things fun and practical.

 

Look at that lspd mod on iv, it's pretty entertaining and it was made by modders. Wouldn't take long to do with R* knowledge and man power.

 

Police missions and more simple crimes like drug dealing with trevor and hustling with franlkin would have been fun.

 

A hardcore mode would aid as well. The only way this game gives anyone difficulty is by the numbers which is lame.

 

Games like the last of us in survival or grounded difficulty could make you sh*t your pants vs 4 or hell even 3 guys.

 

It's even impossible to have shootouts in the hood without the annoying police.

 

Why aren't therr lester perks like online to make crimes invisible to police?

 

The game is great but a big fail in some areas imo.

But according to people on here, playing as police or being a drug dealer or hustling wouldn't be fun they need jetpacks and minigun shootouts in prototype future 20 years down the line military armor to have an exciting game.

 

But the thing is, that literally so many of those games already exist on the market, a true crime simulator hasn't ever came out yet... but if I wanted to I could go to the store and pick up Just Cause, Saints Row, and Mercenaries if I wanted to play a free roam game that just lets me blow up loads of stuff and take out 100 people in a shootout easily with no thought involved.

[White Hot Speed]

This is simply a juxtaposition to this "manly sim or go home" BS attitude every nothinker flexes on the internet nowadays... These Businesses obv. know how to market a product. They've mastered it. Not to mention, little Timmy and his bro's wanna be, or wanna fantasize that they're the next Michael Jordan, or the next Michael Shumacher. So they (me) Anually get duped into rebuying Snorza, they (I) do 200 laps around Laguna Seca trying to shave off that last 100th of a second, and realize they're fkn Bored out of their Gourd... They're not gettin paid, they don't know how much camber LSeca requires for their 83' Mazda Miata. If the top guys are faster, or just better tuners... (FYI, they have designated expert team mechanics), and then they never play the "amazing sim" again... They pop in GTA / Skyrim / Fallout and shoot some motherfkers without consequence... Been there, did that.

 

I can jump 2 feet off the ground. That's fkn boring. I'd much rather jump 10, and have a bit of air control and weild 2 guns to boot.

 

I know I come off harsh. So do you... and AFK is sim as it gets, Dude