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Xl anthrax lX

Morality and religion: Why morality does not belong to religion.

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Fonz

^Of course. Those "feral humans" (at least most of the well documented ones) still had minimal contact with civilised humans, but they are the closest we have observed to truly wild humans. An experiment like that would be inhumane, though.

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Share Sharqi

 

Of course bigotry is learned, but someone who has had limited contact with civilisation will lack many crucial skills and intellectual faculties, and, despite not being an exact example of a truly "wild" human, may still display aggression based on survival instincts.

that's fine.

but it's not a scientific example. it wouldn't hold up in a test.

 

'feral humans' do not provide evidence for how a truly "wild" human would behave naturally. in this day and age it would be impossible to perform such an experiment.

 

You volunteer up some holier than thou virgin that has been touched only by the word of god, which is surely pure; and a means of empirically measuring the purity of their soul, the tactility of their morality and then we will go find some feral children for you to compare them to. Of course it would be impossible to humanely conduct an experiment of any such sort - but the matter of fact is that probably more children in history have been feral, than have never experienced sadness or jealousy or anger in their lifetime, that have never thought or done anything 'bad'.

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El Dildo

I don't know why you're harping on this point.

 

it's utterly moot.

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Clem Fandango

 

Of course bigotry is learned, but someone who has had limited contact with civilisation will lack many crucial skills and intellectual faculties, and, despite not being an exact example of a truly "wild" human, may still display aggression based on survival instincts.

that's fine.

but it's not a scientific example. it wouldn't hold up in a test.

 

'feral humans' do not provide evidence for how a truly "wild" human would behave naturally. in this day and age it would be impossible to perform such an experiment.

 

Regardless, morality doesn't exist outside of a sociocultural context. I've never heard anyone qualified to speak on the subject seriously claim that morality is inherent.

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Dingdongs

The fact that morality has changed so much just over the past 500 years indicative of Melchior's point.

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Tyler

A concession: there are natural systems of life by which many moral arguments are justified. Even granting that, however, does not take into account the societal ideology nor the turbulent systems in play. Sure there is a biological paradigm for certain features (e.g. valuing families), but we should never sway to naturalistic interpretations when it is quite clear that nature is a system unbound and incoherent under the lens of morality. To put it another way: ethical issues and moral ideas are anthropocentric, and more specifically societal-specific, and not an empirical, natural, or self-evident structure in and of themselves.

 

 

no one is born with bigotry[...]

 

This is anachronistic-- the entire argument is. Children are not born racists, but children are born into systems entrenched. Children are not born racists, but they are not born egalitarians, either. They are simply born into the circumstance; by acknowledging that humans are far more malleable and impressionable than inherently 'good' or that modern society is conspicuously capable of being 'bad', we can move forward in establishing a structure that does not rely on naturalistic fallacy.

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El Dildo

morality doesn't exist outside of a sociocultural context.

agreed! I'm not actually saying otherwise.

you're rushing to beat me at a point that I'm not making.

 

of course there's no such thing as natural morality.

but humans naturally behave morally.

 

that's what I've been trying to get at.

our evolution is such that we are inherently inclined to act ethically. why does it matter? because this topic is about the intersection of faith/dogma and morality. the reason religion cannot lay claim to morality is because morality far predates religion. by leaps and bounds.

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Niko Montana

Religion itself teaches morality, but in today's society people have little to no morals and blame it on other things, such as religion. And if people value basic morals so low, what makes you think they'll follow religion.

INCORRECTLY WORDED THEREFORE COMPLETELY MISUNDERSTOOD

Edited by thedriver111

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Share Sharqi

Religion itself teaches morality, but in today's society people have little to no morals and blame it on other things, such as religion. And if people value basic morals so low, what makes you think they'll follow religion.

Finally, a like-minded person! You up for stoning some lascivious adulterers this weekend? Probably not, right?

I mean I have such a full week preaching about my superior moral standing, a construct that has no objective meaning and benefits me, whilst also enabling me to control others, especially children (and women), who should be made to live in fear of eternal hellfire and damnation should they break our strict rules or dare to even have opinions of their own. Meanwhile we'll use it to enslave people, foreign and domestic, with the promise of an afterlife so that they will be subservient not just to our rules, but the iconography of the superior white male (if Christianity) which reflects the inequity of power in wider society, and will tolerate terrible living conditions and economic subservience to the church which is, of course, tax exempt.

I have no issue with theism, but the argument that 'morals' even exist is the reflection of simplistic binary interpretations of the world by minds incapable of rational introspection, that, and the fact that theists always want to challenge the beliefs of athiests - even soft athiests, the kind that just couldn't give a sh*t - but never care to disprove the existence of other deities, which is surely important in the maintenance of a monotheistic perspective.

I am one of said soft-athiests, but honestly I don't care for anyone that comes months late into a topic to preach, not giving examples of their own faith or how it teaches morality, and making broad derisive statements of society simply because it does not conform to your worldview.

I'm sorry - did I forget my morals, I must have lost those when society didn't try to protect me from the truth that the world is a chaotic and unkind place that will do nothing for you, filled with people that will exploit you (obviously faith leaders never mention this part) and really just a bunch of other unpleasant sh*t. Instead religion keeps you isolated from that, and nurtures the delusion that you are somehow different, or better because you act a certain way.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Last sentence: 'little', not 'low'

You have broken the rules of the English Grammarians (a new religion I just started); unfortunately, for being grammatically incorrect, you will suffer an eternity of papercuts to your genitalia after you die, administered in a white-walled classroom in an alternate universe by our deity, the Microsoft Paperclip. Now I just need to convince people that the universe is made out of custard, and that if you never violate our rules you will be magically transported to a planet in space that has always been hidden behind Jupiter, whereupon Morgan Freedom who is one of our Saints, will regale you with Shakespearean prose whilst fairies dance upon stripper poles.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

If somehow you haven't guessed yet, I disagree both with the notion of morality, and that religion somehow possesses what 'society' lacks.

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sivispacem

Religion itself teaches morality

Does it? Perhaps in scripture but not in action. And are you suggesting that irreligious individuals are less moral? Because that's clearly utter bollocks.

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Share Sharqi

 

Religion itself teaches morality

Does it? Perhaps in scripture but not in action. And are you suggesting that irreligious individuals are less moral? Because that's clearly utter bollocks.

 

I forgot to say in my post, shout out to the Presbyterian church, saying it will officiate gay marriages! Some people know that condescension gets you nowhere in the 21st century.

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Xl anthrax lX

 

Religion itself teaches morality

Does it? Perhaps in scripture but not in action. And are you suggesting that irreligious individuals are less moral? Because that's clearly utter bollocks.

 

To add to sivispacems point and to make one of my own, I would say that anyone who thinks that religion "teaches" morality, as if morality is teachable, is completely and utterly ignorant of what is in biblical and other religious text. Either they are ignorant of it or they choose to ignore it. You can pick and choose instances where a good deed is done in the bible for example all you want. But that does not dismiss all the instances where gruesome, immoral and sadistic things are carried out by gods command. Take 2 chornicles 13:15-18. God commands the men of Judah to kill 500,000 of their fellow israelites. Or Exodus 12:29 where god sends the angel of death to kill all egyptian first born children and cattle. How about the blatant misogyny found in the bible? Genesis 13:16 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy conception; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." or maybe Deuteronomy 22:29 where it asserts that an unmarried woman must marry the man who rapes her. "then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days." Oh yes religion is such a good resource to base your moral views on.

Edited by Xl anthrax lX

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Optor

Morality stems from one's ability to empathize with others-not religion. I've known religious people who were absolute monsters, and I've known religious people who were amazingly kind. I've known atheists who were complete dick heads and I've known atheists who weren't fanatical at all about their world view and didn't give a sh*t if anyone else had different world views. If you can go out and hurt a stranger and not feel the slightest bit of remorse or regret afterwards, you lack empathy, not religion. Threat of retribution is not required if you are a truly decent person--the fear of eternal damnation may keep some monsters from indulging in their desires, but ultimately, organized religion has created more monsters than it has vanquished. More so in the Catholic religion, where said monsters use this fear of eternal torment to manipulate under developed minds into remaining silent when they are abused by people who claim to be servants of God. If you look at history, you'll see that empathy and religion are not mutually exclusive--more people have been killed in the name of God than for any other reason; during the inquisitions and crusades, people where kidnapped, burned and tortured to death in the name of God. If religion truly was the corner stone of morality, these atrocious acts of violence would not have happened. But they did.

 

To find moral guidance, one does not need to dabble in old stories that were stolen from Egyptian fables; one simply has to have the ability to feel empathy. That is it. No threat of eternal torture, no promise of eternal reward.

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Jehannum

Religion hijacked morality like it hijacked other things that existed before it such as marriage.

 

True, human morality has always had to fight against religions, especially the Abrahamic ones.

Edited by Jehannum

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Tyler

Human morality is not a sentient entity that fights against anything. It's not even quantifiable as a single entity due to the vast, dynamic outlooks on morals proposed by almost every society since the birth of mankind. It's more than a little disingenuous to say that morality has been "fight[ing] against religions"--especially since that makes no real sense in the first place.

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GTA36362355

Moralität or morality has never been an object which can be owned but it is rather a cultivated way of being. Enforcement of morality by authority is self defeating in nature simply because enforced morality does not fulfill the objective of morality. What is right and wrong cannot apply universally and moral tenets only make their existence felt in language of the communication we have with ourselves. Nothing, in fact, is independent of language. As we develop, so does our language and we all tend to argue on previously unquestioned beliefs in light of various situations.

 

Morality in my opinion is ever evolving and with so many factors that shape the flow of morality, a single institution or authority that wishes to declare what is right and what is wrong will only be wronged in the long run. If you ask me whether to kill or not to kill, only the conversation I have with myself in the 'moment' would decide whether I kill or not, if you ask me whether to be helpful or be self centered, it will only depend on what I think is correct at a given time and for a given person. Morality is over rated. It, in fact, does not exist but only presents itself as an extension of our ego identities while interacting with the outside world.

Edited by Mister Kay

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Absurdity
I define morality as a singular a selective elitist will imposing itself upon multiple wills using a shared emotion or need.


They are the institutionalisation of certain social behaviours for the purposes of the attainment of some ideal objective. An order or justice or god ect.


The motive is to impose a desirable objective upon a wider population group, in this way assimilating the energies of their combined wills into a communal dogma; a communal will, which can be controlled and manipulated by those who not only do not buy into the morals they sell but use them to their own advantage.
Edited by Absurdity

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