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Finn 7 five 11

So the government is allowed to torture?

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Glass Cloud

I used to be into all this kind of stuff and it did nothing but make me pissed off everyday. I realized even with how bad the government is none of this sh*t is never going to affect me, and I'm never going to be able to change it so there's no sense in wasting my stress and energy over it.

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Stephan90

 

 

 

 

blow up our towers and cities and we will kill your family, seems fair game to me

 

What a disgusting "moral" you display, (if it is meant not in an ironically way) even though it is totally unrelated to what is written in the report snippet.

 

its a biased report, not a bipartisan report, no one should believe it at 100%

 

 

The republicans could have participated in creating the report but didn't chose to do so.

 

i dont think they were giving a chance, this report was done months ago., there was a reason why it was released the day it was. because of jonathan grubers testimony on ACA which would be damaging to teh democrats

 

 

I read an article that the repblicans denied in participating the creation of the report from the beginning. The creation und publication of the report was neccessary and an act of a true democratic state. This is true transparency. Doesn't have to do with other political disputes like health care programs. The publication was held back at first because of fears about the safety of the nation. But I have to say, you must live with that. Haters (terrorists) gonna hate anyway.

 

Just because I rant so much on the United States politcs, I have to express that I also like any other believe that 9-11 was horrible and probably the biggest pain the terrorists could possibly inflict to America. But the huge problem is that this gave a carte blanche to the government for everything: torture on "suspects" , drone killings with civiliand casualties and total control of communication by intelligence agencies that were able to do what they want without sufficient political control.

Edited by Stephan90

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feckyerlife

 

 

 

 

 

blow up our towers and cities and we will kill your family, seems fair game to me

 

What a disgusting "moral" you display, (if it is meant not in an ironically way) even though it is totally unrelated to what is written in the report snippet.

 

its a biased report, not a bipartisan report, no one should believe it at 100%

 

 

The republicans could have participated in creating the report but didn't chose to do so.

 

i dont think they were giving a chance, this report was done months ago., there was a reason why it was released the day it was. because of jonathan grubers testimony on ACA which would be damaging to teh democrats

 

 

I read an article that the repblicans denied in participating the creation of the report from the beginning. The creation und publication of the report was neccessary and an act of a true democratic state. This is true transparency. Doesn't have to do with other political disputes like health care programs. The publication was held back at first because of fears about the safety of the nation. But I have to say, you must live with that. Haters (terrorists) gonna hate anyway.

 

Just because I rant so much on the United States politcs, I have to express that I also like any other believe that 9-11 was horrible and probably the biggest pain the terrorists could possibly inflict to America. But the huge problem is that this gave a carte blanche to the government for everything: torture on "suspects" , drone killings with civiliand casualties and total control of communication by intelligence agencies that were able to do what they want without sufficient political control.

 

feels like the Gestapo all over again huh ;)

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sivispacem

Oh please. The Stasi make the Gestapo look positively amateur ;)

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make total destroy

 

Torture is p barbaric, regardless of who is doing the torturing to who, and why. Unless you're in the Wu-Tang Clan, it's just not acceptable.

Yeah but what about torturing rich people and business owners

 

A guillotine is far less icky.

 

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Stephan90

 

 

 

 

 

 

blow up our towers and cities and we will kill your family, seems fair game to me

 

What a disgusting "moral" you display, (if it is meant not in an ironically way) even though it is totally unrelated to what is written in the report snippet.

 

its a biased report, not a bipartisan report, no one should believe it at 100%

 

 

The republicans could have participated in creating the report but didn't chose to do so.

 

i dont think they were giving a chance, this report was done months ago., there was a reason why it was released the day it was. because of jonathan grubers testimony on ACA which would be damaging to teh democrats

 

 

I read an article that the repblicans denied in participating the creation of the report from the beginning. The creation und publication of the report was neccessary and an act of a true democratic state. This is true transparency. Doesn't have to do with other political disputes like health care programs. The publication was held back at first because of fears about the safety of the nation. But I have to say, you must live with that. Haters (terrorists) gonna hate anyway.

 

Just because I rant so much on the United States politcs, I have to express that I also like any other believe that 9-11 was horrible and probably the biggest pain the terrorists could possibly inflict to America. But the huge problem is that this gave a carte blanche to the government for everything: torture on "suspects" , drone killings with civiliand casualties and total control of communication by intelligence agencies that were able to do what they want without sufficient political control.

 

feels like the Gestapo all over again huh ;)

 

 

I don't want to compare it with the enabling act from 1933 regarding its content. But applying the name does have its charme. What the NSA has build up with modern technology is more universal regarding the ability to surveillance the communication than it has ever existed before.

Edited by Stephan90

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Dingdongs

The CIA also imprisoned family members of the "suspects" just to build up pressure. Who on earth can give them the right to do that. They are the simply criminals.

 

 

As pointed out in the "share your feelings" topic already, I am totally disgusted about the CIA methods revealed in the report, not that I was believing they were not guilty before.

 

Would be the best thing ever to see Bush and this dick ... Cheney to face justice and rot in a dirty prison cell.

 

I am very sceptical towards the argument: "We know who the bad guys are, there was no trial against the suspects but trust us we know they must be guilty. We are only doing that for the freedom of our great country."

 

Just look how many innocent people have been killed by American drones.

 

Here are just a few examples what the CIA did:

 

 

 

 

Too bad. They have the right to imprison family members of the suspects when these people try to attack our country and kill 3,000 people in one day. Their families likely all share the same ideology anyway. They are not innocent by any definition of the word.

 

As for you talking about due process and the like, ,unfortunately it's a moot point. The CIA is not a law enforcement agency. They don't carry guns or badges and don't have any authority to detain/arrest US citizens or even charge people with crimes. They are not bound by the UCMJ and if they have approval from the relevant people, they can go after whoever they want overseas.

 

 

 

Neither political party "participated" in the report directly and nor should they have. It was supposed to be written by the bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee. It's majority Democrat, yes, but the minority Republican group were meant to be involved in it.

 

In the end party politics got the better of them and they pulled support for it. Only Snowe and Collins was brave enough to defy the party and participate or vote in favour, and the former likely only because she was due to retire.

 

The Republicans had every opportunity to participate in producing the report but actively chose not to, going as far as to dissuade committee members who wanted to from doing so. Likely because of how damaging the revelations would be to senior members linked with the Bush administration. Their intent was to kill it dead and thankfully they failed.

 

You need to remember that that all committees in Congress are "Bipartisan" - but they vote on a majority rules nature. So if the Senate is controlled by Democrats, that's who you are hearing from in their reports. This report bears striking similarity to the Benghazi reports put out by the House that basically say Hillary Clinton and Obama both purposely didn't respond to requests for security and allowed the Ambassador to die. Both are politically motivated and are not truly "unbiased" reports that focus on the facts.

 

If this report were truly looking to examine the facts, the hearings would have gone on for a lot longer and they would have been speaking to EVERYONE involved, not just those who they want to hear from. The report claims, for example, that President Bush and the White House had no idea about the torture for 4 years. Yet, Cheney and Bush have both said they knew from the getgo. The report alleges the CIA leadership mislead Congress and the White House, yet it did not bring in CIA leadership to testify. The report is a political sham, just like the Benghazi report the Republicans came out with.

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Brad

 

The CIA also imprisoned family members of the "suspects" just to build up pressure. Who on earth can give them the right to do that. They are the simply criminals.

 

 

As pointed out in the "share your feelings" topic already, I am totally disgusted about the CIA methods revealed in the report, not that I was believing they were not guilty before.

 

Would be the best thing ever to see Bush and this dick ... Cheney to face justice and rot in a dirty prison cell.

 

I am very sceptical towards the argument: "We know who the bad guys are, there was no trial against the suspects but trust us we know they must be guilty. We are only doing that for the freedom of our great country."

 

Just look how many innocent people have been killed by American drones.

 

Here are just a few examples what the CIA did:

 

 

Their families likely all share the same ideology anyway.

 

 

That is pure, unadulterated stupidity.

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Dingdongs

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The CIA also imprisoned family members of the "suspects" just to build up pressure. Who on earth can give them the right to do that. They are the simply criminals.

 

 

As pointed out in the "share your feelings" topic already, I am totally disgusted about the CIA methods revealed in the report, not that I was believing they were not guilty before.

 

Would be the best thing ever to see Bush and this dick ... Cheney to face justice and rot in a dirty prison cell.

 

I am very sceptical towards the argument: "We know who the bad guys are, there was no trial against the suspects but trust us we know they must be guilty. We are only doing that for the freedom of our great country."

 

Just look how many innocent people have been killed by American drones.

 

Here are just a few examples what the CIA did:

 

 

Their families likely all share the same ideology anyway.

 

 

That is pure, unadulterated stupidity.

 

Are you going to tell me that Khalid Sheik Mohammed's family doesn't subscribe to radical terrorist thought? His own nephew bombed the trade towers in 93. Why do you think the CIA's UAV strike programs don't just target one person, but try to hit their families and associates as well? It's not an accident when civilians get killed nearby the target of the strike. A 13 year old kid with a radical father is the same 13 year old kid that is going to strap on a suicide vest and blow up hospitals and government buildings. We saw it in Iraq. Sorry, but you need to wake up and smell the coffee at some point and realize that this is a war. They are beheading journalists right now, they killed 3,000 Americans on 9/11 and thousands more who responded to the disaster site are either dying or living horrible, painful existences due to the respiratory diseases they have acquired after working the rescue... but it's stupidity to recognize that their families and associates are probably subscribers to the same ideology? Give me a break.

 

You took my quote out of context, but nevertheless my statement was inherently hyperbolic and for that I apologize. Obviously not every person associated or related to someone in the AQ chain of command is a terrorist, but it's quite likely there is some connection and this is reflected in US policy. As a New Yorker who could smell the burning rubble from my elementary school classroom on 9/11, I get very carried away sometimes when people talk about how awful what America does to terrorists is. But regardless, you need to come to the hard realization that if you want to talk about these issues, it all isn't pretty.

Edited by Irviding

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Doc Rikowski

The positive in this it's that the US political and social system is still capable of producing such reports.

Still capable of looking for mistakes, showing them to the public and improve on them.

There are not many countries capable of this and capable of doing it after such short time from the events.

 

The negative in this it's that torture has been used without any significant result.

That the people responsible won't be trialled for crimes against humanity.

That some countries are allowed to do whatever they want outside their borders.

 

That's what we have I guess. Better than all negative...

 

---

 

@ Irviding: sorry but implying that a relative of a terrorist will probably share the same ideology of the terrorist is a bit too much.

Are we going to judge people only on loose assumptions? I hope not.

 

Also I understand that 9/11 caused death, pain, frustration and destruction but have you ever thought about the fact that in response to 9/11

death, pain, frustration and destruction where brought upon a lot of people in a lot of countries except in the ones from where the 19* terrorists where? Sadly ironic, isn't it?

In the end the 9/11 US victims are just as all the people that died innocently in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

 

 

*(15 from Saudi Arabia, 2 from UAE, 1 from Egypt and 1 from Lebanon)

Edited by Doc Rikowski

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El Dildo

It's a nuclear option and should be treated as such.

but we signed the Genevea Convention.

 

we signed it.

period.

 

we didn't sign it with the caveat of hypothetical doomsday scenarios.

we signed it.

 

we either want to uphold our integrity or we don't.

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Dingdongs

 


@ Irviding: sorry but implying that a relative of a terrorist will probably share the same ideology of the terrorist is a bit too much.
Are we going to judge people only on loose assumptions? I hope not.

Also I understand that 9/11 caused death, pain, frustration and destruction but have you ever thought about the fact that in response to 9/11
death, pain, frustration and destruction where brought upon a lot of people in a lot of countries except in the ones from where the 19* terrorists where? Sadly ironic, isn't it?
In the end the 9/11 US victims are just as all the people that died innocently in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Is it too much though? Political socialization is what it is. The family, the school, and the church are the main factors in socialization. All of which in these countries with radical extremists tend to be intertwined and perpetuating the same ideologies. Again, I know what I'm saying is unpopular and even abhorrent at first read, but carefully think about it and understand why the CIA and the Pentagon operate as they do with these strikes and with operatives they capture. The allusions I made to the 13 year old suicide bombers used by these terrorists is quite relevant to the overarching picture we have here; these people start indoctrinating with terrorist ideology at a young age. The mosques they go to and the schools they attend reinforce it. This is much more than a war of military strategy and tactics - it's a war of ideology and generations of people that now hate the United States. We can talk about why they hate us, our own actions contributing to that sentiment, but that doesn't change the fact that is very clear and present.

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RoadRunner71

 

I stand with Nice Guy Eddie here.

 

[...]

I've seen so many left-wing people commenting on this issue saying that the US are now as bad as the terrorist and fundamentalists. They are not really though are they. I don't know where they come up with this sh*t.

Considering that the US has a long record of financing paramilitary guerillas and death squads which directly targeted the civilian population, and even spreading out on purpose that fundamentalism that now has turn against us, I don't think they'd be too far from the definition of terrorist. The fact that you pay other people to make the nasty work for you doesn't make you any better. But I guess that's another story...

I don't recall ever claiming that the US were not terrorists, not that I think they are.

 

Which Paramilitary guerrillas and death squads have the US financed?

 

It's well known that the US (CIA) funded and armed right-wing paramilitary groups and promoted the state-sponsored terrorism and repression in South and Central America since the 1960's. Nicaraguan, Salvadorean, Guatemalan or Honduran death squads, Colombian paramilitary guerrillas (either during the Cold War and later "drug on wars" strategy), Hatian FRAPH... The list goes on.

Edited by RoadRunner71

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Kampioen

 

 

@ Irviding: sorry but implying that a relative of a terrorist will probably share the same ideology of the terrorist is a bit too much.

Are we going to judge people only on loose assumptions? I hope not.

 

Also I understand that 9/11 caused death, pain, frustration and destruction but have you ever thought about the fact that in response to 9/11

death, pain, frustration and destruction where brought upon a lot of people in a lot of countries except in the ones from where the 19* terrorists where? Sadly ironic, isn't it?

In the end the 9/11 US victims are just as all the people that died innocently in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Is it too much though? Political socialization is what it is. The family, the school, and the church are the main factors in socialization. All of which in these countries with radical extremists tend to be intertwined and perpetuating the same ideologies. Again, I know what I'm saying is unpopular and even abhorrent at first read, but carefully think about it and understand why the CIA and the Pentagon operate as they do with these strikes and with operatives they capture. The allusions I made to the 13 year old suicide bombers used by these terrorists is quite relevant to the overarching picture we have here; these people start indoctrinating with terrorist ideology at a young age. The mosques they go to and the schools they attend reinforce it. This is much more than a war of military strategy and tactics - it's a war of ideology and generations of people that now hate the United States. We can talk about why they hate us, our own actions contributing to that sentiment, but that doesn't change the fact that is very clear and present.

 

 

Do you think wiping out entire families is going to make all of this go away or something? Like at some point we will finally kill off the last of the bad guy families, and then all of the good guy families will be forever grateful? You can't just kill groups of people because they happen to have some sort of association to a terrorist, and expect not to create more enemies in the process than you've taken out in the attack.

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Docfaustino

Which is precisely what's wrong with the drone program.

 

The only solution for the global terror problem is funding counter education against what's taught in the madrassas. And encouraging foreign governments go use their ridiculous oil wealth to build roads and schools.

Edited by Docfaustino

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volta2001

its crazy that Bush brought down the towers single handed

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Dingdongs

 

 

 

@ Irviding: sorry but implying that a relative of a terrorist will probably share the same ideology of the terrorist is a bit too much.

Are we going to judge people only on loose assumptions? I hope not.

 

Also I understand that 9/11 caused death, pain, frustration and destruction but have you ever thought about the fact that in response to 9/11

death, pain, frustration and destruction where brought upon a lot of people in a lot of countries except in the ones from where the 19* terrorists where? Sadly ironic, isn't it?

In the end the 9/11 US victims are just as all the people that died innocently in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Is it too much though? Political socialization is what it is. The family, the school, and the church are the main factors in socialization. All of which in these countries with radical extremists tend to be intertwined and perpetuating the same ideologies. Again, I know what I'm saying is unpopular and even abhorrent at first read, but carefully think about it and understand why the CIA and the Pentagon operate as they do with these strikes and with operatives they capture. The allusions I made to the 13 year old suicide bombers used by these terrorists is quite relevant to the overarching picture we have here; these people start indoctrinating with terrorist ideology at a young age. The mosques they go to and the schools they attend reinforce it. This is much more than a war of military strategy and tactics - it's a war of ideology and generations of people that now hate the United States. We can talk about why they hate us, our own actions contributing to that sentiment, but that doesn't change the fact that is very clear and present.

 

 

Do you think wiping out entire families is going to make all of this go away or something? Like at some point we will finally kill off the last of the bad guy families, and then all of the good guy families will be forever grateful? You can't just kill groups of people because they happen to have some sort of association to a terrorist, and expect not to create more enemies in the process than you've taken out in the attack.

 

No, it won't make all of it go away. The drone program and the targets we chose is, however, a viable short-middle term solution to dealing with the problem.

 

Docfaustino is correct, you need to change the ideology over there as a long term solution. Whether that's through funding the governments to do it through propaganda campaigns and through arrests/detention of those who perpetuate those ideologies, it has to be done somehow. We need to be careful who we're funding though; we've seen what happens when we just pour money at these governments and don't enforce where the spending goes.

 

 

its crazy that Bush brought down the towers single handed

w0j0d3.jpg

Edited by Irviding

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Doc Rikowski

 

 

@ Irviding: sorry but implying that a relative of a terrorist will probably share the same ideology of the terrorist is a bit too much.

Are we going to judge people only on loose assumptions? I hope not.

 

Also I understand that 9/11 caused death, pain, frustration and destruction but have you ever thought about the fact that in response to 9/11

death, pain, frustration and destruction where brought upon a lot of people in a lot of countries except in the ones from where the 19* terrorists where? Sadly ironic, isn't it?

In the end the 9/11 US victims are just as all the people that died innocently in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Is it too much though? Political socialization is what it is. The family, the school, and the church are the main factors in socialization. All of which in these countries with radical extremists tend to be intertwined and perpetuating the same ideologies. Again, I know what I'm saying is unpopular and even abhorrent at first read, but carefully think about it and understand why the CIA and the Pentagon operate as they do with these strikes and with operatives they capture. The allusions I made to the 13 year old suicide bombers used by these terrorists is quite relevant to the overarching picture we have here; these people start indoctrinating with terrorist ideology at a young age. The mosques they go to and the schools they attend reinforce it. This is much more than a war of military strategy and tactics - it's a war of ideology and generations of people that now hate the United States. We can talk about why they hate us, our own actions contributing to that sentiment, but that doesn't change the fact that is very clear and present.

 

 

I'm sorry but I find the "they hate us and they hate America" a very weak and basic propaganda driven argument.

Things are much more complex than that.

 

The same assumptions you apply to "terrorists" relatives can be used by them to justify their own actions against any American citizen, civilian or not.

Imagine I'm an Iraqi father of a child that has just been killed as the result of the "collateral damage" of a bomb dropped by the US during the Gulf War.

Imagine I'm just a regular civilian guy. A taxi driver with no political or religious radical ideas.

I will think, correctly, that the US just killed my child for no reason.

I might want revenge and I might radicalize my future life and see all Americans as enemies, civilian or not.

I might become part of a plot to kill thousands of civilians in America just as America did in my land.

I will think those civilians share the same "ideology" of their fellow Americans that bombed my house and killed my child.

There you go, I'm an Iraqi father and I'm thinking just as Irviding is thinking on the other side of the Ocean.

 

As you see it all depends from which point of view you look at things.

Nobody is right when assuming that other "civilians" share the same ideology of the perpetrators cause they are relatives or simply living in the same country.

That kind of attitude leads to a "us vs them" view of the world that it is exactly what who's in charge wants.

People from both sides should direct their hate against who leads them rather than against people that are just like them only living somewhere else.

The american taxi driver father of two killed in NYC on 9/11 is the same guy, taxi driver in Baghdad killed by one of the many bombs dropped by US planes.

They are both right in their death.

The real responsible ones are their leaders who put their people in the position of getting killed for absolutely nothing.

The power will do everything it can to put regular people vs regular people.

The power will tell you that bombing Iraq was necessary and that Saddam was a threat.

The power will tell you that 9/11 was necessary cause the Americans killed your family.

The people will follow and kill or die for the power always for the wrong reasons cause nobody is really right.

Both sides are wrong.

 

Really, it's just propaganda. Either you fall for it or not.

When you will start to understand you've been fooled by your leaders, then you will be free and you will not hate someone who is not your enemy.

Cause your enemy is your leader.

Edited by Doc Rikowski

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Finn 7 five 11

I just wanted to jump in here, referring to a few people responding and bring up this bit of...philosophy if you will.

 

I've read many books about wars, be it Science fiction, fiction, reality ect. Usually there's good guys fighting bad guys, The Rebel Alliance vs The Empire I'll use here since it's well known and has all the common elements.

 

The Empire is evil because of oppression, and obliteration of people's, they have no bounds, they'll do horrible things to people to interrogate, or oppress and further their cause.

The Rebel Alliance is trying to further theirs too, and at times will come to hard decisions. The problem comes when The Alliance needs something badly to help beat The Empire, but that something can only be achieved by stooping to the lows The Empire will go to, will they do it? Won't they? A crossroad has been reached.

 

Usually in these Kinds of situations the decision is made to not drop to new lows, because if they stoop to the levels of The Empire, they might as well be The Empire. They become the bad guys when they begin doing the things that separate the two causes, the difference between wrong and right, between moral and immoral.

 

Interrogation, torture and killing of innocents, an eye for an eye kind of ideal using the "9/11 killed 3000 people, therefore they deserve to lose 3000 people makes us just as bad as the people we were fighting, and therein lies the lines that were separating us from the evil overseas.

 

You cannot beat evil with evil, because you become the evil.

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sivispacem

No-one is justifying torture as lex talionis. It's not about retaliation. I don't recall seeing anyone suggest that terrorism suspects were deserving of torture.

 

Also, the notion of "stooping to X level" seems a bit strange to my eye. It's rather dependent on moral objectivism/universalism and rejecting consequentialism. This isn't a defence of torture, but ostensibly unethical actions can have long-term positive consequences. Torture would be justifiable from a utilitarian perspective, and arguably several other perspectives based on common ethical theories, if it were actually consistently effective.

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Zook

 

 

I stand with Nice Guy Eddie here.

 

[...]

I've seen so many left-wing people commenting on this issue saying that the US are now as bad as the terrorist and fundamentalists. They are not really though are they. I don't know where they come up with this sh*t.

Considering that the US has a long record of financing paramilitary guerillas and death squads which directly targeted the civilian population, and even spreading out on purpose that fundamentalism that now has turn against us, I don't think they'd be too far from the definition of terrorist. The fact that you pay other people to make the nasty work for you doesn't make you any better. But I guess that's another story...

I don't recall ever claiming that the US were not terrorists, not that I think they are.

 

Which Paramilitary guerrillas and death squads have the US financed?

 

It's well known that the US (CIA) funded and armed right-wing paramilitary groups and promoted the state-sponsored terrorism and repression in South and Central America since the 1960's. Nicaraguan, Salvadorean, Guatemalan or Honduran death squads, Colombian paramilitary guerrillas (either during the Cold War and later "drug on wars" strategy), Hatian FRAPH... The list goes on.

 

America has done bad things and made mistakes, but largely I see it as a force for good. And in no way is it comparable to groups like ISIS and Al-Qaeda. I have seen people playing down the horrors that they are responsible for and grossly exaggerated and condemned the wests actions.

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sivispacem

People who say "the US did bad things" generally tend to ignore the context in which the US did these bad things. The Cold War strategic climate made proxy warfare basically fair game for great powers.

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Dingdongs

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry but I find the "they hate us and they hate America" a very weak and basic propaganda driven argument.

Things are much more complex than that.

.

Did I ever say that it wasn't more complex than that?You can show me examples of innocent Iraqi civilians dying all day, but when push comes to shove, American policymakers are looking out for the lives of Americans, and will create policies designed to protect Americans, not to protect citizens of Yemen or Iraq. You can think that's unfortunate, but that's the reality. We understand quite clearly that the issue is more complex, but at the end of the day these people hate the West and want to inflict damage upon civilians and cause terror in certain Western countries, US, UK, etc. You can make an argument that it's self-inflicted and there is some credence to that. But again, at the end of the day, the West will address the issue in the short-medium term with the intention of protecting their own citizenry.

Edited by Irviding

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Tigereyesxx

Deleted

Edited by bronzeboyxx

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Doc Rikowski

 

 

 

I'm sorry but I find the "they hate us and they hate America" a very weak and basic propaganda driven argument.

Things are much more complex than that.

.

Did I ever say that it wasn't more complex than that?You can show me examples of innocent Iraqi civilians dying all day, but when push comes to shove, American policymakers are looking out for the lives of Americans, and will create policies designed to protect Americans, not to protect citizens of Yemen or Iraq. You can think that's unfortunate, but that's the reality. We understand quite clearly that the issue is more complex, but at the end of the day these people hate the West and want to inflict damage upon civilians and cause terror in certain Western countries, US, UK, etc. You can make an argument that it's self-inflicted and there is some credence to that. But again, at the end of the day, the West will address the issue in the short-medium term with the intention of protecting their own citizenry.

 

 

 

Are they? To be honest I think American policymakers hardly give a f*ck about its own citizens. Just as any other policymaker out there...

Bombing countries and people that had nothing to do with 9/11 certainly is not the best way to take care of the lives of Americans.

It's actually quite an insult to the victims of 9/11, imho.

And the awful results of such idiotic policy are in front of your nose. You either see them or you choose to be blind.

But then again if you genuinely think that there are people out there that hate the West for no reason then you are already lost in low quality Hollywood propaganda.

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Dingdongs

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry but I find the "they hate us and they hate America" a very weak and basic propaganda driven argument.

Things are much more complex than that.

.

Did I ever say that it wasn't more complex than that?You can show me examples of innocent Iraqi civilians dying all day, but when push comes to shove, American policymakers are looking out for the lives of Americans, and will create policies designed to protect Americans, not to protect citizens of Yemen or Iraq. You can think that's unfortunate, but that's the reality. We understand quite clearly that the issue is more complex, but at the end of the day these people hate the West and want to inflict damage upon civilians and cause terror in certain Western countries, US, UK, etc. You can make an argument that it's self-inflicted and there is some credence to that. But again, at the end of the day, the West will address the issue in the short-medium term with the intention of protecting their own citizenry.

 

 

Are they? To be honest I think American policymakers hardly give a f*ck about its own citizens. Just as any other policymaker out there...

Bombing countries and people that had nothing to do with 9/11 certainly is not the best way to take care of the lives of Americans.

It's actually quite an insult to the victims of 9/11, imho.

And the awful results of such idiotic policy are in front of your nose. You either see them or you choose to be blind.

But then again if you genuinely think that there are people out there that hate the West for no reason then you are already lost in low quality Hollywood propaganda.

I never said they hated he West for no reason. Please actually read the post in its entirety. It's not about getting revenge for 9/11, it's about taking steps to prevent similar occurrences in the future.

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Tigereyesxx

 

 

I'm sorry but I find the "they hate us and they hate America" a very weak and basic propaganda driven argument.

Things are much more complex than that.

.

 

Did I ever say that it wasn't more complex than that?You can show me examples of innocent Iraqi civilians dying all day, but when push comes to shove, American policymakers are looking out for the lives of Americans, and will create policies designed to protect Americans, not to protect citizens of Yemen or Iraq. You can think that's unfortunate, but that's the reality. We understand quite clearly that the issue is more complex, but at the end of the day these people hate the West and want to inflict damage upon civilians and cause terror in certunain Western countries, US, UK, etc. You can make an argument that it's self-inflicted and there is some credence to that. But again, at the end of the day, the West will address the issue in the short-medium term with the intention of protecting their own citizenry.

 

 

Are they? To be honest I think American policymakers hardly give a f*ck about its own citizens. Just as any other policymaker out there...

Bombing countries and people that had nothing to do with 9/11 certainly is not the best way to take care of the lives of Americans.

It's actually quite an insult to the victims of 9/11, imho.

And the awful results of such idiotic policy are in front of your nose. You either see them or you choose to be blind.

But then again if you genuinely think that there are people out there that hate the West for no reason then you are already lost in low quality Hollywood propaganda.

Edited by bronzeboyxx

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Tigereyesxx

Deleted

Edited by bronzeboyxx

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Dingdongs

Well, it's a little more complicated than that. As I mentioned it is partly self inflicted but it is not limited to US policy as some would have you believe. I suggest anyone who thinks it is an absolute on either side (they hate us because we have a free society) or (they hate us because we are evil and mettle in their affairs) to read this article from Fareed Zakaria and his updated version.

 

http://www.newsweek.com/politics-rage-why-do-they-hate-us-154345

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/fareed-zakaria-why-they-still-hate-us-13-years-later/2014/09/04/64f3f4fa-3466-11e4-9e92-0899b306bbea_story.html

 

Again, regardless of the root causes, it doesn't change the fact that they exist and that we need to address them... the ways of doing that include the UAV/drone program.

Edited by Irviding

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Otter

Hard to claim the moral highground when you're using 'enhanced' techniques to dig new ditches.

 

Not like we Canadians can walk away from this with our heads held high. Amazing how, despite the gravity of the situation, the press is staying at arm's length on this one. Too many people are afraid to cry foul for fear of looking like they support the enemy.

 

 

I don't know how we fix this one, guys.

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