Quantcast
Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
    1. Welcome to GTAForums!

    1. Red Dead Redemption 2

      1. Gameplay
      2. Missions
      3. Help & Support
    2. Red Dead Online

      1. Gameplay
      2. Find Lobbies & Outlaws
      3. Help & Support
    1. Crews & Posses

      1. Recruitment
    2. Events

    1. GTA Online

      1. Arena War
      2. After Hours
      3. Find Lobbies & Players
      4. Guides & Strategies
      5. Vehicles
      6. Content Creator
      7. Help & Support
    2. Grand Theft Auto Series

    3. GTA Next

    4. GTA V

      1. PC
      2. Guides & Strategies
      3. Help & Support
    5. GTA IV

      1. Episodes from Liberty City
      2. Multiplayer
      3. Guides & Strategies
      4. Help & Support
      5. GTA Mods
    6. GTA Chinatown Wars

    7. GTA Vice City Stories

    8. GTA Liberty City Stories

    9. GTA San Andreas

      1. Guides & Strategies
      2. Help & Support
      3. GTA Mods
    10. GTA Vice City

      1. Guides & Strategies
      2. Help & Support
      3. GTA Mods
    11. GTA III

      1. Guides & Strategies
      2. Help & Support
      3. GTA Mods
    12. Top Down Games

      1. GTA Advance
      2. GTA 2
      3. GTA
    13. Wiki

      1. Merchandising
    1. GTA Modding

      1. GTA V
      2. GTA IV
      3. GTA III, VC & SA
      4. Tutorials
    2. Mod Showroom

      1. Scripts & Plugins
      2. Maps
      3. Total Conversions
      4. Vehicles
      5. Textures
      6. Characters
      7. Tools
      8. Other
      9. Workshop
    3. Featured Mods

      1. DYOM
      2. OpenIV
      3. GTA: Underground
      4. GTA: Liberty City
      5. GTA: State of Liberty
    1. Red Dead Redemption

    2. Rockstar Games

    1. Off-Topic

      1. General Chat
      2. Gaming
      3. Technology
      4. Programming
      5. Movies & TV
      6. Music
      7. Sports
      8. Vehicles
    2. Expression

      1. Graphics / Visual Arts
      2. GFX Requests & Tutorials
      3. Writers' Discussion
      4. Debates & Discussion
    1. News

    2. Forum Support

    3. Site Suggestions

Finn 7 five 11

So the government is allowed to torture?

Recommended Posts

Doc Rikowski

...but to imply that terror can be explained away by the actions of the West and by the actions of colonists is as naiive as saying terror can be explained solely because of Islamic world today.

 

Never implied so.

I was just saying that the West has its own share of "sins" in world's history, past and present.

We can't really teach anything to anyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dingdongs

 

...but to imply that terror can be explained away by the actions of the West and by the actions of colonists is as naiive as saying terror can be explained solely because of Islamic world today.

 

Never implied so.

I was just saying that the West has its own share of "sins" in world's history, past and present.

We can't really teach anything to anyone.

 

We aren't looking to teach anything at all. We aren't trying to "teach" for the sake of "teaching" as if we have a better way of doing things. We're looking to end this cycle of extremism and the expansion of this ideology (Islamic extremism/Islamofacism) that perpetuates beheading people who don't agree with you and raping them with swords.

 

Maybe we need a different tactic, like funding secular education over there.
That's a great idea, but how do we do that? Who do we fund? It's a lot more complicated than that. If we could secularize the Middle East with a few hundred billion dollars by just funding it, I'm pretty sure most American policymakers would love that. But as Docfaustino has pointed out numerous times, these governments over there don't want to do that.

 

 

 

So let's kill their children before they grow up and become terrorists?

That sounds like a great strategy indeed!

Why don't we nuke those countries and erase them from the map?

Wouldn't it be even easier?

Or sterilize all of them?

 

 

...smh

 

And hundreds of years ago? You can call it Christianity, or capitalism, or western "civilization", or democracy... We never stopped spreading stuff with the sword to this day.

Western colonialism and its awful consequences are still fresh and visible all over the planet.

A bit of realism and sincerity wouldn't hurt.

 

And suddenly we have millions of muslims murdering and raping thousands?

I guess I missed the latest news... lol

 

Seriously, all you say is blown out of proportions and exaggerated to high levels of paranoia. Islamophobic seems an understatement related to your last post.

 

I wonder if that's really what he means, killing children because they may grow up to be terrorists. I mean that's exactly what he explains without actually saying it.

 

So let's clear this up. Irviding, are you suggesting we should be killing more children?

 

 

No, that's not what I mean. Doc is choosing to sensationalize every post I've made in this thread by extrapolating the part about children and turning it into the central point of my argument. Which is fine and dandy, but no that is not the central underlying assertion I'm trying to make. Yes Doc, we do have that going on right now. Stop trying to sensationalize this argument and make everyone into a Muslim hating ogre. Nobody in this thread hates Muslims. What we do hate is the ideology perpetuated by these extremists and actively pursued by ISIS. Thousands have been killed, raped, mutilated, etc. in this conflict so far. So maybe you did miss the news, or you're just reading what you want to hear. I don't know.

 

I'm not arguing that we need to put down every single child in the Middle East. I've reread all of my posts in this thread and I cannot see how anything I said could be extrapolated to mean "kill all the Muslim children" unless you selectively quote me, which is exactly what Doc has been doing. What I'm saying is that, while critics of the drone program argue that it kills civilians and namely children, those who are killed by the drones are not something we should be concerned with.

 

Look at the strike against Anwar al-Awlaki. Most successful strike arguably of the entire program. This is the guy that operated out of Virginia in the early 2000s inspiring extremism, and was the main propagandist of AQ. So again, a successful strike. Three other individuals were killed in the strike, one of them who worked for a news site. That individual was Samir Khan, not necessarily an operational member of al-Qaeda, but he was an extremist who perpetuated the same thought that was getting people to take up arms against American troops in Iraq/Afghanistan and was encouraging US citizens to commit terrorist acts. Is he an operational AQ member? Not really. Does he deserve to die from the standpoint of American policymakers? Yup.

 

If Anwar al-Awlaki's child, or the child of any of these individuals died in the attack, it would not be an issue to me nor is it an issue to US policymakers. And that is because these are children who are going to be socialized into the same ideology and the same hatred of the West as their parents. Anyone who associates with these people is a fair target. You can call me an awful person, or say that it is morbid, but I encourage you to make an argument in opposition instead of just highlighting the small part about children and tell me how exactly US policymakers should act. If the CIA/JSOC/whoever is running the UAV in a particular country comes across an AQ member(s), and they are with 4 other people eating, maybe one of them is a 14 year old kid, should these 4 people eating not be targeted? Are they just innocent people eating at the AQ member's house? Are you going to tell me they're in the same book club? This isn't just me saying this. This is US policy right now. The CIA/DIA as well as the uniformed military actively targets such individuals. If a child is killed, yes, it is a tragedy if the child is young and did not yet get brainwashed into the ideology, and was simply a young/boy or girl... but that is what happens in war. People die, and it isn't just the ones in uniform.

 

And to clarify, I'm not arguing that the drone program nor am I arguing that torture is the solution here. In fact if you look in this thread I've made argument against torture. The drone program is wildly successful as a short-medium term solution. As Sivis pointed out, it results in SIGNIFICANTLY less casualties than if you used other methods, it is less costly, and it can be done much more clandestinely than flying jets in to bomb a target, even with a surgical strike there would be significantly more casualties. I mean the drone program really is a liberal way of approaching US policy. Eric Holder wrote the Justice Department opinion on Drone Strikes. This is the same guy that is sending the FBI into Ferguson, and is a very liberal Attorney General. If you are opposed to drone strikes, then what is your alternative? Do nothing? We should've let Anwar al-Awlaki continue making propaganda videos and continue inspiring AQ fighters/Islamic militants in general to take up arms against us? Again, yes it is a short-medium term solution. It won't end the cycle, doing that requires a lot more, namely encouraging the moderate majority of Islam (really today a "silent" majority at this time in the area) to actively work against these radicals. Unfortunately with people like al-Malaki destroying any hope of Iraq working together peacefully, and with the amount of organization and fervor these radicals are able to muster, that is quite difficult.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Clem Fandango

It's not a political doctrine. It's the far right of a religion. The political doctrine of radical Islam would be Sharia in its strictest interpretation.

No, it's more a political movement than a theological one. Do some research into radical Islam. The questions it answers are political: imperialism, the role of women, borders in the Middle East. Is IS lead by clerics? No, it's lead by ideologues, and the issues that bring them to violence are the aforementioned political issues, not religious thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Doc Rikowski

Irviding, let me understand this, you say I extrapolate the parts about children and you reply with a post in which you basically say "If Anwar al-Awlaki's child, or the child of any of these individuals died in the attack, it would not be an issue to me nor is it an issue to US policymakers."?!?!

 

I know you talk about other things but to be honest it is hard to ignore such statements.

 

I didn't miss the news but you said "millions" and that is a complete exaggeration of the number of IS militants and in general of radical extremists.

 

Anyway I might even respect your opinion since it's based on your country's policy but I completely disagree with it and I morally despise such policy.

Suddenly drones are judge, jury and executioner and these people and their children are murdered based on evidence gathered only by intelligence agencies which can't be held accountable in any way by a civilian or independent local counterpart. Their children are presumed to be guilty by association in the future. No rights to defend themselves in a court or legally.

I can't even define the words to describe how morally and legally disgusting is such line of thought, beside being completely irrelevant and dumb strategically.

It could be easily used against America the other way around. People could kill a US drone operator kid just because one day he could choose to do the same job as his dad.

If US policy and society will continue on this path you can expect a total collapse of it in the next 50 years. The signs of it are already quite visible.

 

You say there's a war and yet it is "undeclared" and the US acts and strikes unilaterally and illegally outside its borders.

It may have Pakistan's or Yemen's authorities permission to strike (or insert here any other corrupted authority to which the US is allied in the ME and Asia) but that doesn't make these strikes less arbitrary.

Each and every single "collateral damage" caused by such strikes is undoubtedly the murder of an innocent.

It can be valid from "the standpoint of American policymakers" but it will go down in history as a war crime. No doubt about that.

 

I know you said drones and torture are not the solution. I got that.

But you either support them or you are against them.

That's something people in the US has to decide and live with it but the consequences of such policy are for all of us and that is what I do not like.

 

You ask to me what's my alternative.

My alternative is simple but it's utopic cause super powers have no interest in a multipolar peaceful world based on a fair relationship.

My alternative would work only if such countries were not driven by their national interests but by a common human one.

Unfortunately we are far from that, especially in the West.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dingdongs

Irviding, let me understand this, you say I extrapolate the parts about children and you reply with a post in which you basically say "If Anwar al-Awlaki's child, or the child of any of these individuals died in the attack, it would not be an issue to me nor is it an issue to US policymakers."?!?!

 

 

I know you talk about other things but to be honest it is hard to ignore such statements.
I didn't miss the news but you said "millions" and that is a complete exaggeration of the number of IS militants and in general of radical extremists.

 

Because again, this is a 5 page thread I've written f*cking essay long posts, and you've looked at the one part about the children as if that's the overarching argument. That's your style of debating and that is fine. I'm just pointing it out.

 

There are not millions of members of IS militants, but there are absolutely millions of radical Islamic extremists. Even if you define it as narrowly as people who are violently engaged in political Islam, that number is well over one million. But I would consider any individual who actively perpetuates such thought to be a radical Islamic extremist.

 

Anyway I might even respect your opinion since it's based on your country's policy but I completely disagree with it and I morally despise such policy.
Suddenly drones are judge, jury and executioner and these people and their children are murdered based on evidence gathered only by intelligence agencies which can't be held accountable in any way by a civilian or independent local counterpart. Their children are presumed to be guilty by association in the future. No rights to defend themselves in a court or legally.

 

 

 

 

Intelligence agencies are accountable to civilian oversight. The President has authority over the CIA and its military counterparts. As for an "independent local counterpart", no idea what that means exactly. If you mean the Yemeni court of justice, then I think first they might need some judges and some clerks to work there before they can act as a local counterpart.

 

 

I can't even define the words to describe how morally and legally disgusting is such line of thought, beside being completely irrelevant and dumb strategically.
It could be easily used against America the other way around. People could kill a US drone operator kid just because one day he could choose to do the same job as his dad.
If US policy and society will continue on this path you can expect a total collapse of it in the next 50 years. The signs of it are already quite visible.

What signs are those? Sure they could. Not saying they won't, and I would expect our enemies to think the same way, not necessarily of drone operators but moreso of people involved in the military/national security apparatus and their children.

 

 

 

You say there's a war and yet it is "undeclared" and the US acts and strikes unilaterally and illegally outside its borders.
It may have Pakistan's or Yemen's authorities permission to strike (or insert here any other corrupted authority to which the US is allied in the ME and Asia) but that doesn't make these strikes less arbitrary.
Each and every single "collateral damage" caused by such strikes is undoubtedly the murder of an innocent.
It can be valid from "the standpoint of American policymakers" but it will go down in history as a war crime. No doubt about that.

 

 

 

The strikes are not arbitrary. Of the 400+ strikes so far, the notion that the CIA/JSOC/DIA/ whoever else just plops into a chair and says "Yeah let's go blow up some sh*t over here" is ridiculous. These are all carefully calculated strikes on HVTs and on terrorist training facilities/known terrorist locales. As for the war being undeclared, the US hasn't declared a war since 1941 and probably will never do so again unless we are at war with a nation state.

 

 

History is written by the victors and the ones with the power. We got the power.

 

I know you said drones and torture are not the solution. I got that.
But you either support them or you are against them.
That's something people in the US has to decide and live with it but the consequences of such policy are for all of us and that is what I do not like.

I said drone strike are not a long term end all solution, not that they are not a viable tool to take out terrorists. We are going to do it either way - if you'd prefer use traditional air strikes which carry with them much more civilian casualties then go ahead and argue that. Otherwise, suck up the drones.

 

 

 

You ask to me what's my alternative.

My alternative is simple but it's utopic cause super powers have no interest in a multipolar peaceful world based on a fair relationship.

My alternative would work only if such countries were not driven by their national interests but by a common human one.

Unfortunately we are far from that, especially in the West.

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting. Obviously I disagree completely with pretty much every sentiment there but I appreciate your opinion/desire, and find this notion of a common human interest to be a very honorable desire. Unfortunately it isn't grounded in reality.

 

Edited by Irviding

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Doc Rikowski

History is written by the victors and the ones with the power. We got the power.

 

Sums up pretty much your point of view and curiously enough mine too.

I respect much more this attitude than the politically correct one that media and politicians try to sell us.

The real reason behind the whole thing is power in its many dirty facets.

It has nothing to do with all the rest that is sold as "necessary", "humanitarian", "noble", "right", "just" and so on.

 

By "civilian local counterpart" (or even an international one) I mean someone I could go to if one of my family is unrightfully killed by a drone strike as "collateral damage".

Basic human and legal rights of some of the victims are virtually non existent when hit by a US drone strike.

Imagine a US plane falls into some house in Germany or a crazy pilot just drops a bomb on some street in Denmark.

You can be sure that the German and Danish victims would have some right to sue the US for damages.

And probably they'd have some compensation granted by either the US, an international organization or their own government.

But if you are some Yemenite peasant you won't have any right at all.

That makes the whole "The President has authority over the CIA etc" completely useless to whom is unrightfully damaged by this policy.

The whole policy becomes completely arbitrary and sloppy due to the high number of innocent victims and even due to the ones that have been executed without even giving them the chance of proving their innocence.

All done once again contradicting the very same principles that the US declares to be found on.

 

When you stop granting the same rights to everyone while being a nation that blabbers about rights every single time pretending that everyone should learn from its example is the first step towards that path I was mentioning earlier. The path to total collapse.

Add to that the fact that the same nation isn't able to grant the same basic human rights to all its citizens and you'll get why this attitude can only lead to disaster. Those are the signs.

That is what history taught us. And that's the main flaw about America: too young as a nation to have properly learned from its history and its mistakes.

Only problem is that at this stage of history, US' mistakes (or Russia's, or China's, or any other nuclear power out there) could lead all of us to extinction.

 

But I guess we are digressing. Probably my fault.

 

Just to conclude completely OT:

my alternative is utopic not because humans are not capable of working all together for a common interest; actually the majority of the people would be very happy to do so. It's utopic cause the problem is very much grounded in the reality of the system and in the power of the few that run it. The problem is that most people didn't realize (yet) that we handed the power to a small corrupted, sociopathic, homicidal, selfish, short-sighted, vicious and ignorant group of people. And we did this in most countries and continents. It is always the mediocre, the evil, the ugly, the sleazy, the dishonest, the crazy that aspire to power and gets it. It is never the good, the noble, the honest, the nice, the truthful that has it. That's because good people do not need nor want power. Unfortunately by doing so we, the good ones, ended up subjects of the scum of humanity, generation after generation. And right now I believe we reached a peak. Never humanity has been lead by such an assemble of scum. It won't end well unless we, the people, realize we are being used by scum and we get rid of it once and for all.

 

To be honest I don't understand why you disagree with the sentiments of common human interest and a multipolar world. Is it maybe cause you got the power? Then you're part of the problem. ;)

 

Edited by Doc Rikowski

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Doc Rikowski

Bump with an important update.

Italy finally and officially condemned for torture for the police actions of July 2001 during the G8 meeting.

Amnesty International called the event "the most serious suspension of democratic rights in a Western country since the Second World War".


http://www.ansa.it/english/news/politics/2015/04/07/court-condemns-italy-for-diaz-torture_40d8e9f7-0c1e-4535-b522-a9f9c6d66737.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • 1 User Currently Viewing
    0 Members, 0 Anonymous, 1 Guest

×

Important Information

By using GTAForums.com, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.