Controversial Coppers: Shootings, the racist argument, and the effects

[PhillBellic]

What ever the case, it is time for police officers everywhere to start wearing (tamper proof) body cameras. Thoughts?

 

Cheers.

I have read through the subsequent posts and I appreciate reading the various thoughts you have all posted.

[Ai®a©ob®a]

 

Michael Brown's Step Father Investigated for Comments

St Louis: Police are investigating Michael Brown's step father for angry comments on the streets of Ferguson after a grand jury decided not to indict the police officer who fatally shot his unarmed stepson, a spokesman said on Tuesday.

 

Officials are looking into Louis Head's comments as part of a broader investigation into the arson, vandalism and looting that followed the November 24 grand jury announcement, St Louis County Police spokesman Brian Schellman said. Twelve commercial buildings were destroyed by fire.

 

Brown, 18, who was black and unarmed, was killed August 9 by Ferguson police Officer Darren Wilson, who is white. Wilson, who resigned from the Ferguson police department over the weekend, had told the grand jury his life was being threatened. Brown's killing sparked weeks of unrest and reignited debate over race relations in America.

 

Video widely circulated after last week's grand jury announcement shows Brown's mother, Lesley McSpadden, on top of a car and breaking down as the decision blares over a stereo. Head, her husband, comforts her then yells angry comments, including "Burn this bitch down!"

 

Family attorney Benjamin Crump has called the reaction "raw emotion," but "completely inappropriate." He did not immediately return messages seeking comment on Tuesday.

 

Head has not yet been interviewed by police, and there is no timetable for when the investigation will be complete, Schellman said. He declined to discuss what specific charges Head could face. A message left with a spokesman for St Louis County Prosecutor Bob McCulloch was not immediately returned.

 

Ferguson Police spokesman Jeff Small said that department is not conducting a separate investigation of Head.

 

Most of the violence occurred in the first two days after the announcement. Peaceful protests have continued, including one Tuesday involving students who walked out of classes from three Ferguson-area high schools.

 

The Ferguson-Florissant School District said in a letter to students and parents that teachers accompanied the students to ensure their safety but that the protests were student-led. The letter also said the district dispatched transportation to pick up students and return them to classes, though some chose to walk back.

 

It was their first day back in class after Thanksgiving break was extended a day due to bad weather Monday, when similar walkouts were staged across the US

 

While daytime protests continue, nighttime demonstrations have waned. There were 124 arrests in Ferguson in the five days following the grand jury announcement, but none since Friday.

 

As a result, police and the National Guard are scaling back. Schellman said county officers are no longer working 12-hour shifts, though a small contingent will remain posted at night outside Ferguson police headquarters, which has been a focal point for protest gatherings.

 

Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon also announced Tuesday that the National Guard has completed duties in the city of St Louis and is reducing its presence- which peaked at about 2,200 guard members- in Ferguson and elsewhere in St Louis County. Still, nearly 1,300 remain in the region.

 

The mother and stepfather of slain teenager Michael Brown are under investigation in Ferguson, Missouri, for an alleged late October violent incident with other Brown family members, a fight that erupted over “Justice For Mike Brown” merchandise.

“The probe of the October 18 attack remains an ‘active investigation,’ according to Stephanie Karr, city attorney in Ferguson, Missouri,” the Smoking Gun reported on Monday.

 

The police report about the Oct. 18 incident, taken by reporting officer Stephanie Wilson, details how at about 1:23 p.m. that day, Officer Wilson was called to the parking lot of Red’s BBQ on West Florissant “for a report of 20 subjects fighting.”

 

“Upon arriving, I contacted Gordon, Pearlie [brown’s paternal grandmother, the mother of Michael Brown, Sr.],” Officer Wilson wrote. “Gordon stated she was selling ‘Justice For Mike Brown’ merchandise with Cosey, Matthew and Petty, Tony on the above parking lot when a large group of about 20-30 subjects ‘jumped out of vehicles and rushed them.’”

 

One of the people who allegedly “rushed” at them was Brown’s mother, Lesley McSpadden. Gordon, Brown’s paternal grandmother, made sure Brown’s mother, McSpadden, was aware she was Brown’s grandmother, and said, “unless McSpadden could produce documentation saying she had a patent on her son’s name, she (Gordon) was going to continue to sell her merchandise.”

 

McSpadden’s mother, Desureia Harris—Brown’s maternal grandmother—then allegedly said to Gordon, Brown’s paternal grandmother: “You don’t know my grandson like that. I’m gonna tear this sh*t down.”

 

“Harris then proceeded to rip down t-shirts and other items hanging on the line,” Officer Wilson wrote.He continued:

 

Gordon was then repeatedly struck in the back and left side of the head by an unknown subject(s). Gordon stated there were 20-30 unknown subjects tearing her booth apart, and she was knocked to the ground. Gordon heard McSpadden yell to an unknown subject ‘that’s Caluina’s mom, get her ass.’ McSpadden then ran up and punched Gordon. A subject believed to be Keyanna Ewings also assaulted Gordon by punching her.

Cosey and Petty were assaulted by unknown subjects during the incident. Over $1500.00 in merchandise (shirts and afghans) and a suitcase containing at least $400 in cash was stolen by unknown subjects. The suspects then fled the scene prior to police arrival.

 

The incident put Petty, one of the people with Brown’s paternal grandmother, in the hospital. “Petty was transported to Christian Northeast by EMS for injuries sustained during the assault,” Officer Wilson wrote.

 

The next page of the three-page police report notes that Gordon “identified the following subjects as ‘attackers’ during the incident: Bernard Ewings, Keyanna Ewings, Louis Head (McSpadden’s boyfriend) Tonya Ewings, Lesley McSpadden, and Desureia Harris.”

 

Since this incident, which the police are still investigating, the grand jury in Ferguson decided against indicting Officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of Brown. That decision led to riots nationwide, centered in Ferguson—riots that started after Brown’s stepfather, Louis Head, urged crowds on Monday night to “burn this bitch down.”

 

On Laura Ingraham’s radio program on Wednesday, Missouri’s Lt. Gov. Peter Kinder called for Head to “be arrested and charged with inciting to riot” for that.

[Dingdongs]

His mother is also under investigation for assaulting the grandmother when she was selling Justice for Michael Brown Shirts. Apparently she said something along the lines of "if anyone's going to profit off my son it's me" and beat up the grandmother and took all the money and the shirts.

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffox2now.com%2F2014%2F11%2F05%2Fpolice-investigating-assault-felony-robbery-following-fight-among-michael-browns-family%2F&ei=Cst-VISCAoWagwT7nYSABQ&usg=AFQjCNFTPrX_AhUH2vxZn5gTa59Ok2n9Bw&bvm=bv.80642063,d.eXY

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCwQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nydailynews.com%2Fnews%2Fnational%2Fmichael-brown-mom-face-felony-armed-robbery-charges-article-1.2001373&ei=Cst-VISCAoWagwT7nYSABQ&usg=AFQjCNEa1qVwM9g0riDAqzeNHkYP_LOmOQ&bvm=bv.80642063,d.eXY

 

As for his stepfather saying to burn the police station down, all I know is that if I said that we should burn the police department down, I'd be sitting in lockup right now. Same goes for anyone else here. So take that for what it is.

[Sir Michael]

The real issue here isn't about race, it's about police using excessive force.. but media's swaying the attention away from that and trying to focus it on race, something that just pushes to segregate the people even more.

 

This is the real threat and problem-

 

 

 

Why the hell are we arming an already dangerous force of do-as-they-please-with-no-consequence wannabe firing squads with military weapons and gear??

Jeez, this looks like a responce force you'd expect to see from national security threats or acts of terrorism and war. Sending military to contain a riot is well beyond excessive force.. These guys look like they're about to storm Baghdad with him strapped they are.

 

This whole Deandre Joshua thing is weird though.. I haven't heard anything about that case in a few days. Already went cold?

[sivispacem]

The thing about the militarization is that it...is all about controlling the population through either force or fear alone.

Is it? I can certainly see how one might think that but I don't think that makes it true. Aside from the imagery of troops in kevlar vests toting assault rifles hanging from the sides of military surplus vehicles I don't really think there's been that fundamental a change in the behaviour of the US police forces and associated federal agencies. I mean, the implication of what you are saying is that the militarisation of the police is a fairly new phenomenon but most of it (vehicles excepted- I'm talking about the equipping of armed response officers with assault rifles and vests designed to resist intermediate cartridges) was an immediate reaction to stuff like the Brinks robbery, North Hollywood shooting and Norco throughout the 1980s and 1990s. In terms of deployment to stuff like angry protest, I do somewhat agree in that the use of such public implied force is designed to act as a deterrent to violence but in light of recent events it appears not to work so I'd be surprised if we continue to see it. There's already a significant political backlash against from all sides (one of the few issues there seems to be broad agreement on) and it has been criticised by several previous and current police chiefs.

 

We've moved to a state where the majority of people are now in fear of the police rather than feel protected by them.

I'm not sure I believe this. Do you have any evidence to support this idea?

 

We've slowly shifted the term 'terrorist' from Al Qaeda's to people who protest police brutality which gives the police legal authority to detain and arrest people who speak their voice.

Are you genuinely stating that the police ate categorising civil protesters as terrorists in order to justify overt use of force against them? Again, I think you're going to have to provide some evidence of this.

 

Going back to my earlier point, the militarisation of the police isn't a response to terrorism. Well, it is to some extent but not Islamic terrorism but domestic Marxist-Leninist groups in the 70s and 80s and the right-wing militia groups of the 90s, but also to violent criminal events like those highlighted above. Additionally if you look further back to the prohibition era you see the same characteristics- police armed with fully automatic military weapons firing armour piercing ammunition (Colt Monitor/BAR et al) and arguably extra-judicial killings of individuals thought to be connected to organised crime. And then, as mentioned earlier, Rampart/CRASH and other more recent scandals.

 

This is history repeating itself- disarm the public, erode their rights then take complete control.

So when has this ever happened before in the US?

[Dingdongs]

I think a lot of that can be fixed with changing recruiting/hiring standards. First, too many recent police recruits are guys out of the military. I come from a military/cop family (pretty sure my comments in this thread have alluded to that) I have the utmost respect for veterans and those who serve our country. But those people who served in the infantry in the military are not guys who are going to take community policing seriously, they're ones who will want to take out the toys and walk around with ARs.

It's not just limited to ex-military guys though, it is so pervasive and people just join for the wrong reasons. My uncle who is a 30 year+ fed said to one of my friends who was talking to him about working in federal enforcement "If you want to grow a beard and be all operator, then join the DEA or a local SWAT team". I think that is relevant to many people. If you want to be a cop so you can be a tough guy and rough people up, then you are doing it for the wrong reason. Unfortunately too many seem to for just that. Office Pantaleo or whatever from the NYPD who killed that guy with the chokehold is a pretty prime example of that "tough guy" BS that has to be phased out.

I have been a staunch defender of Officer Wilson's actions and I do not believe that Michael Brown is remotely innocent. However, if Wilson had approached the two of them and said "Hey fellas, I need to ask you a couple of questions, alright?" in a calm manner instead of whipping up on them in his SUV, it may have gone a lot differently. However, it could've gone exactly the same because it seemed to me that Brown was not remotely interested in complying with authority given his demeanor at the store, but still... Similarly, if Pantaleo had said to Eric Garner "Listen Pal, you know the laws on illegal cigarette sales, I'm sorry but I'm going to have to take you in for this." rather than what we saw on the recording, it's less likely Garner would be dead. You can apply that standard to tons of situations... the Waco Siege, the local Sheriff said multiple times that the whole thing would've been unnecessary if the ATF sent two agents with the sheriff to pick up Koresh when he is in town in a calm manner. "Hey Mr. Koresh, we need to take you in for a few questions, the Sheriff (who he knew) will be there, alright?" would've gone a lot differently than what happened resulting in 4 federal agents losing their lives and however many Branch Davidians.

 

It goes both ways though. Defenders of Pantaleo would say it's quite difficult to do that when as a cop, in a black community, you get 20 people surrounding you when you walk your beat and start talking to someone. So it really does go both ways and the idea that the responsibility is limited to the police department and that the community itself has no wrongdoing is silly. This is discussed by that fellow in the video I posted on the last page if anyone is interested further. Frankly I have no clue how to fix it, if I had to guess it would start somewhere with a concerted effort to fix the neighborhoods these people grow up in.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Irviding

[GrandMaster Smith]

 

 

Is it? I can certainly see how one might think that but I don't think that makes it true. Aside from the imagery of troops in kevlar vests toting assault rifles hanging from the sides of military surplus vehicles I don't really think there's been that fundamental a change in the behaviour of the US police forces and associated federal agencies. I mean, the implication of what you are saying is that the militarisation of the police is a fairly new phenomenon but most of it (vehicles excepted- I'm talking about the equipping of armed response officers with assault rifles and vests designed to resist intermediate cartridges) was an immediate reaction to stuff like the Brinks robbery, North Hollywood shooting and Norco throughout the 1980s and 1990s. In terms of deployment to stuff like angry protest, I do somewhat agree in that the use of such public implied force is designed to act as a deterrent to violence but in light of recent events it appears not to work so I'd be surprised if we continue to see it. There's already a significant political backlash against from all sides (one of the few issues there seems to be broad agreement on) and it has been criticised by several previous and current police chiefs.

 

It's definitely a part of it. People will be much less likely to stand up for what they believe in when they have to do so face to face to a fully automatic weapon.

 

 

 

I'm not sure I believe this. Do you have any evidence to support this idea?

 

Well you don't live in the United States so maybe you don't see and hear things first hand? My evidence is from what I experience and my friends and family experience. Constant harassment, being pulled over and searched for menial things.. Cops work to meet a quota, I'm from a place with very little actual crime so when you see a police officer sitting in a speed trap or begin to follow you, you instantly know they're only out to try and find something to pull you over and fine you for.. they are not trusted around here.

 

 

 

 

Are you genuinely stating that the police ate categorising civil protesters as terrorists in order to justify overt use of force against them? Again, I think you're going to have to provide some evidence of this.

 

I've heard several times on the news having civil rights protestors being tied with the term of domestic terrorists. Protesters are being treated as terrorists as they're having basically military shooting squads deployed on them ready to open fire with fully automatic weapons.

 

 

 

So when has this ever happened before in the US?

 

 

I think you're looking at things too short-termed. The majority of democracies throughout human's history have turned to dictatorships.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jeez, this looks like a responce force you'd expect to see from national security threats or acts of terrorism and war. Sending military to contain a riot is well beyond excessive force.. These guys look like they're about to storm Baghdad with him strapped they are.

This whole Deandre Joshua thing is weird though.. I haven't heard anything about that case in a few days. Already went cold?

 

 

 

It's interesting what they're doing too.. they're firing tear gas at journalists and breaking their equipment. They even made it a no-fly zone to prevent media helicopters from filming any of what they were doing. The police are working hard to keep a media blackout on the real issue, and in turn the mainstream media has turned the whole thing into an ordeal of racism.

 

 

 

There are videos of police threatening to shoot and kill journalists if they don't leave as well..

Edited December 3, 2014 by GrandMaster Smith

[sivispacem]

It's definitely a part of it. People will be much less likely to stand up for what they believe in when they have to do so face to face to a fully automatic weapon.

 

Then what do you say to the increased negative political attention this is drawing, and the increases in funding for stuff like body cameras, training and many of the other things Ivirding highlighted in his response as problems perceived in the police force? I appreciate that they won't deal with the lack of clear accountability and the propensity to close down and protect each other rather than permit legitimate scrutiny but, as I said before, I don't think we will continue to see these gratuitous displays of power. Looking back across history you can see a sort of tick-tock effect, with increasing militarisation and questionable behaviour followed by reforms designed to make police more accountable and enable greater scrutiny.

 

Well you don't live in the United States so maybe you don't see and hear things first hand? My evidence is from what I experience and my friends and family experience. Constant harassment, being pulled over and searched for menial things.

It's true, I don't live in the US, but many of my colleagues do. Some do certainly see what they perceive as an increase in police harassment. Some think things are roughly the same as they've always been. Arguments from anecdote are all well and good but are very subjective. People tend to associate with people who share their views and opinions. You end up with lots of confirmation bias. I'm not saying that you're wrong, just that personal views tend to shape how one interprets interactions with the police every but as much as interactions with the police shape one's views of them, and that people with preexisting beliefs regarding increasing police impropriety and harassment are more likely to continue to perceive this than those who don't hold these views.

 

I've heard several times on the news having civil rights protestors being tied with the term of domestic terrorists. Protesters are being treated as terrorists as they're having basically military shooting squads deployed on them ready to open fire with fully automatic weapons.

Who have you heard the allegation that police are using policies and procedures designed for counterterrorism to justify oppression of dissent and violence against protest? "The news" is a pretty vapid idea.

 

Additionally, I fail to see the differentiation between police responses to violent crime, organised and otherwise, warranting armed responses and counterterrorism. I appreciate that portraying this as use of techniques/tactics designed for CT fits the grand narrative of your argument better but could you explain this differentiation? I mean, there have been numerous reports or gunfire emanating from groups of protesters/rioters so one would expect some degree of armed response from the police; could you explain how the response we've seen characterises one affiliated with counterterrorism specifically?

 

I think you're looking at things too short-termed. The majority of democracies throughout human's history have turned to dictatorships.

Well that depends how you define democracy and how you define dictatorship. It's certainly not true of conventional Weberian democracies like those comprising the majority of the Western world.

[Docfaustino]

Grandmaster Smith, alarmism isn't going to change anyone's mind on the situation of US policing. Give Sivis some examples, I can tell you've done your homework man, and you believe what you believe but saying the sky is falling when it's more of a slow descent won't change any minds!

[make total destroy]

 

[make total destroy]

Meanwhile in Mexico

 

 

Meanwhile in Greece

 

[Dottie]

Meanwhile In my neck of the woods...

[Ai®a©ob®a]

His mother is also under investigation for assaulting the grandmother when she was selling Justice for Michael Brown Shirts. Apparently she said something along the lines of "if anyone's going to profit off my son it's me" and beat up the grandmother and took all the money and the shirts.

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffox2now.com%2F2014%2F11%2F05%2Fpolice-investigating-assault-felony-robbery-following-fight-among-michael-browns-family%2F&ei=Cst-VISCAoWagwT7nYSABQ&usg=AFQjCNFTPrX_AhUH2vxZn5gTa59Ok2n9Bw&bvm=bv.80642063,d.eXY

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCwQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nydailynews.com%2Fnews%2Fnational%2Fmichael-brown-mom-face-felony-armed-robbery-charges-article-1.2001373&ei=Cst-VISCAoWagwT7nYSABQ&usg=AFQjCNEa1qVwM9g0riDAqzeNHkYP_LOmOQ&bvm=bv.80642063,d.eXY

 

As for his stepfather saying to burn the police station down, all I know is that if I said that we should burn the police department down, I'd be sitting in lockup right now. Same goes for anyone else here. So take that for what it is.

Yeah i posted that right before you did heh...

 

The mother and step father and their family are still under invesgation for the robbery/assault and will most likely be charged for that after all this calms down but officals came out today and said it unlikely the step father will be charged because even though he said what he said riots most likely would have broken out anyways because people who weren't near him at all were the ones who started it.

[ryanhunter_rfc]

How easy is it to become a police officer in the US compared to other developed countries? eg Britain Canada.

 

From my perspective it seems like its a lot easier for a Knucklehead to join US law enforcement than other places. Or maybe it is the vast amounts of officers that percentage wise are bound to have a few bad apples that spoil the image for the rest?

[Docfaustino]

How easy is it to become a police officer in the US compared to other developed countries? eg Britain Canada.

 

From my perspective it seems like its a lot easier for a Knucklehead to join US law enforcement than other places. Or maybe it is the vast amounts of officers that percentage wise are bound to have a few bad apples that spoil the image for the rest?

 

It definitely depends on the district. In a place like my town we don't have much violent crime so I'm sure anyone with a GED could do it. I can't speak for the bigger cities, but I think their problems are not so much due to who joins up but a culture of going to mafia like lengths to protect their "made" members. And a lack of accountability. TSA recruitment definitely scares me a bit more. There was a great cracked article a while ago about an Israeli security operative who stopped several terrorist plots just railing on our airport security recruitment for ages. That sh*t scares me.

 

Do you live in Britain? Aren't they less gung-ho about arming their rookie officers? I hear different things so I don't know.

 

This was the Cracked article, pretty funny.

 

http://www.cracked.com/blog/7-reasons-tsa-sucks-a-security-experts-perspective/

Edited December 4, 2014 by Docfaustino

[Elder Maxson]

COP LOGIC

 

[IveGotNoValues]

Watching this at the moment. It was very peaceful but then the cops went in and started tackling random innocent people down. It's always the cops that start sh*t...

 

Edited December 4, 2014 by IveGotNoValues

[Dingdongs]

 

How easy is it to become a police officer in the US compared to other developed countries? eg Britain Canada.

 

From my perspective it seems like its a lot easier for a Knucklehead to join US law enforcement than other places. Or maybe it is the vast amounts of officers that percentage wise are bound to have a few bad apples that spoil the image for the rest?

 

It definitely depends on the district. In a place like my town we don't have much violent crime so I'm sure anyone with a GED could do it. I can't speak for the bigger cities, but I think their problems are not so much due to who joins up but a culture of going to mafia like lengths to protect their "made" members. And a lack of accountability. TSA recruitment definitely scares me a bit more. There was a great cracked article a while ago about an Israeli security operative who stopped several terrorist plots just railing on our airport security recruitment for ages. That sh*t scares me.

 

Do you live in Britain? Aren't they less gung-ho about arming their rookie officers? I hear different things so I don't know.

 

This was the Cracked article, pretty funny.

 

http://www.cracked.com/blog/7-reasons-tsa-sucks-a-security-experts-perspective/

 

TSA is a big issue. For one they aren't even cops. Actually DHS got a lot of criticism from guys within ICE/HSI and other enforcement agencies because they gave TSA guys badges on their shirts. I think your average TSA guy is a cop or military reject that has nothing else to do and wants some shred of authority.

 

As for police requirements, I think they're right where they should be. Most departments now require at least 2 years of college, and if you want a competitive position in the department you need to possess a college degree.

 

Eric Garner case is unfortunate. I don't think there is anything criminal there and neither did the grand jury when presented with the facts. You go down a very slippery slope when you start holding cops criminally accountable if they go too far. While yes a man lost his life, it's very hard to argue that the chokehold is what killed him when the guy had a plethora of medical issues that really caused his death. To me that is an issue of a cop not following protocol, and Pantaleo should never be a cop again and I am almost certain he will lose his badge permanently.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Irviding

[ryanhunter_rfc]

 

 

Do you live in Britain? Aren't they less gung-ho about arming their rookie officers? I hear different things so I don't know.

 

This was the Cracked article, pretty funny.

 

http://www.cracked.com/blog/7-reasons-tsa-sucks-a-security-experts-perspective/

Yeah I'm pretty sure that you need to be in the police for two years before you can even think about going near a gun, and that's if you get accepted to join the armed unit. However, I think you would need atleast 5+ years experience before they even coinsider you.

[Dingdongs]

 

 

Do you live in Britain? Aren't they less gung-ho about arming their rookie officers? I hear different things so I don't know.

 

This was the Cracked article, pretty funny.

 

http://www.cracked.com/blog/7-reasons-tsa-sucks-a-security-experts-perspective/

Yeah I'm pretty sure that you need to be in the police for two years before you can even think about going near a gun, and that's if you get accepted to join the armed unit. However, I think you would need atleast 5+ years experience before they even coinsider you.

 

That works great in the UK, but in the US where there is such a vast proliferation of firearms, having unarmed cops is a shaky concept.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Irviding

[ryanhunter_rfc]

So less guns for civilians would mean les guns for cops and less guns all round means less shootings?

[Ai®a©ob®a]

How easy is it to become a police officer in the US compared to other developed countries? eg Britain Canada.

 

From my perspective it seems like its a lot easier for a Knucklehead to join US law enforcement than other places. Or maybe it is the vast amounts of officers that percentage wise are bound to have a few bad apples that spoil the image for the rest?

It took me about 8 months to go though my training and another 2 months of observation training and than 6 months of probational period...It took me a total of 2 years before i was allowed to do any active enforcement but even when i graduated from my probational period i spent another year with an FTO i had a difference FTO every 2 months.

 

But every dept is difference on how they train their officers if they are really desperate for officers they can spit em out in around 2-3 months with minimal training which i actually find scary the dept that is the next town over from us and sometimes back us up on calls only require their recruits to complete the 2 months standard training and 6 months with a probation FTO before they are let out on their own and i actually get scared when i hear they are going to back up our officers.

[Dingdongs]

So less guns for civilians would mean les guns for cops and less guns all round means less shootings?

If it were only as simple as that, but it isn't remotely so and I think you know that.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Irviding

[Doc Rikowski]

 

So less guns for civilians would mean les guns for cops and less guns all round means less shootings?

If it were only as simple as that, but it isn't remotely so and I think you know that.

 

 

Actually it would be just simple as that. Look at other western countries...

[Docfaustino]

 

 

How easy is it to become a police officer in the US compared to other developed countries? eg Britain Canada.

 

From my perspective it seems like its a lot easier for a Knucklehead to join US law enforcement than other places. Or maybe it is the vast amounts of officers that percentage wise are bound to have a few bad apples that spoil the image for the rest?

 

It definitely depends on the district. In a place like my town we don't have much violent crime so I'm sure anyone with a GED could do it. I can't speak for the bigger cities, but I think their problems are not so much due to who joins up but a culture of going to mafia like lengths to protect their "made" members. And a lack of accountability. TSA recruitment definitely scares me a bit more. There was a great cracked article a while ago about an Israeli security operative who stopped several terrorist plots just railing on our airport security recruitment for ages. That sh*t scares me.

 

Do you live in Britain? Aren't they less gung-ho about arming their rookie officers? I hear different things so I don't know.

 

This was the Cracked article, pretty funny.

 

http://www.cracked.com/blog/7-reasons-tsa-sucks-a-security-experts-perspective/

 

TSA is a big issue. For one they aren't even cops. Actually DHS got a lot of criticism from guys within ICE/HSI and other enforcement agencies because they gave TSA guys badges on their shirts. I think your average TSA guy is a cop or military reject that has nothing else to do and wants some shred of authority.

 

As for police requirements, I think they're right where they should be. Most departments now require at least 2 years of college, and if you want a competitive position in the department you need to possess a college degree.

 

Eric Garner case is unfortunate. I don't think there is anything criminal there and neither did the grand jury when presented with the facts. You go down a very slippery slope when you start holding cops criminally accountable if they go too far. While yes a man lost his life, it's very hard to argue that the chokehold is what killed him when the guy had a plethora of medical issues that really caused his death. To me that is an issue of a cop not following protocol, and Pantaleo should never be a cop again and I am almost certain he will lose his badge permanently.

 

 

I'm going to remove the fact that Garner is dead from the equation for a minute so we can handle this argument one step at a time...the act of using a chokehold at all IS banned by the NYPD, so why shouldn't the officer be held accountable?

[sivispacem]

 

 

 

So less guns for civilians would mean les guns for cops and less guns all round means less shootings?

If it were only as simple as that, but it isn't remotely so and I think you know that.

 

Actually it would be just simple as that. Look at other western countries...

I think the point was that disarming a heavily armed populace with firearms so culturally and societally ingrained is effectively impossible.

[TheGodDamnMaster]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/12/04/nyregion/grand-jury-said-to-bring-no-charges-in-staten-island-chokehold-death-of-eric-garner.html?_r=0&referrer=id

 

Have any of you read about the NYPD officer who just got off the hook for the murder of another unarmed black man? Apparently a group of officers stopped him because he was selling illegal cigarettes (whatever the hell those are) and eventually they put him in a chokehold and pressed his face into the pavement until he suffocated and died. It was revealed that two-thirds of the jury involved in the case were white.

 

But the most outrageous thing about this for me is that there is actual video evidence documenting the attack and you can hear his pleas to breathe. The guy didn't even throw a punch and they snagged him in a chokehold. This infuriates me on so many levels.

[make total destroy]

if cops just had body cams eric garner would still be alive, or maybe the officer would have been indicted

 

 

wait a sec...

[Dingdongs]

 

 

 

 

 

 

How easy is it to become a police officer in the US compared to other developed countries? eg Britain Canada.

 

From my perspective it seems like its a lot easier for a Knucklehead to join US law enforcement than other places. Or maybe it is the vast amounts of officers that percentage wise are bound to have a few bad apples that spoil the image for the rest?

It definitely depends on the district. In a place like my town we don't have much violent crime so I'm sure anyone with a GED could do it. I can't speak for the bigger cities, but I think their problems are not so much due to who joins up but a culture of going to mafia like lengths to protect their "made" members. And a lack of accountability. TSA recruitment definitely scares me a bit more. There was a great cracked article a while ago about an Israeli security operative who stopped several terrorist plots just railing on our airport security recruitment for ages. That sh*t scares me.

 

Do you live in Britain? Aren't they less gung-ho about arming their rookie officers? I hear different things so I don't know.

 

This was the Cracked article, pretty funny.

 

http://www.cracked.com/blog/7-reasons-tsa-sucks-a-security-experts-perspective/

 

TSA is a big issue. For one they aren't even cops. Actually DHS got a lot of criticism from guys within ICE/HSI and other enforcement agencies because they gave TSA guys badges on their shirts. I think your average TSA guy is a cop or military reject that has nothing else to do and wants some shred of authority.

 

As for police requirements, I think they're right where they should be. Most departments now require at least 2 years of college, and if you want a competitive position in the department you need to possess a college degree.

 

Eric Garner case is unfortunate. I don't think there is anything criminal there and neither did the grand jury when presented with the facts. You go down a very slippery slope when you start holding cops criminally accountable if they go too far. While yes a man lost his life, it's very hard to argue that the chokehold is what killed him when the guy had a plethora of medical issues that really caused his death. To me that is an issue of a cop not following protocol, and Pantaleo should never be a cop again and I am almost certain he will lose his badge permanently.

 

I'm going to remove the fact that Garner is dead from the equation for a minute so we can handle this argument one step at a time...the act of using a chokehold at all IS banned by the NYPD, so why shouldn't the officer be held accountable?

He is being held accountable. He is losing his badge. If anything criminal it is involuntary manslaughter and that's a stretch. That would've only stuck if Garner had no health issues exacerbating what happened. You can't go around charging cops criminally, it sets a dangerous precedent and whether you like it or not that's really the jurisprudence here. A cop was hit with manslaughter for killing a guy that accidentally hit his car with a football. That is manslaughter; a cop breaking protocol by putting a guy with multiple health issues into a chokehold is a disciplinary thing... In our legal system we don't allow police to be criminally accountable unless they go so far around what is incident to an arrest it represents the case I listed earlier. I think Pantaleo was being a jackass and he had a reputation in his jacket for being a tough guy that has had disciplinary action before. As I said earlier if he had come up to Garner and said "Hey pal I need to take you in, you've been locked up for this before and you know mot to be doing what you're doing" it would've gone a lot differently; and that's the attitude cops need to have when approaching suspects. Not this "hey mofo you pedaling illegal cigarettes" sh*t.

 

I personally would've liked to see him hit with something criminal but I certaintly can appreciate the need to not criminally charge cops in most cases, as did the grand jury made up of his peers.

 

I think the point was that disarming a heavily armed populace with firearms so culturally and societally ingrained is effectively impossible.

 

Yes, this. Not only would it be impossible for cultural reasons but it's logistically and politically impossible and frankly a complete non-starter. You can't compare what countries like the UK does with firearms to how we operate in the US anymore than you can compare it to Switzerland as justification for allowing open carry nation wide. Edited December 4, 2014 by Irviding

[make total destroy]

In our legal system we don't allow police to be criminally accountable unless they go so far around what is incident to an arrest it represents the case

 

 

And you don't think that's problematic?