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Gay Tony

How do you justify yourself?

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Gay Tony

What I mean is..... if you were born and raised differently you would think and act completely different. How can you be certain you wouldn't be part of that angry mob burning that woman accused of witchcraft 500 years ago??

 

Humans aren't biologically different from then or before typically. You can't say you'd have the same insight you do now or be special in any way. This is somewhat distressing to think about.

 

How do you know that what you believe in now will be justified in the future? Can you even look at yourself knowing what you could be now had you been born somewhere else?

Edited by mr toasterbutt

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Jerome

Well, I'm pretty centered in my beliefs, I don't think people would call my beliefs crazy apart if the world becomes entirely socialist.

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Clem Fandango

Well, nobody would claim that genetics don't play a part. That said, remember that we live in an explicitly individualist culture where people are taught to think of everything they do and are as a reflection of their personal worth. Yes, no matter how big of a bleeding heart liberal you might be, you'd be picketing funerals with the best of them if you were brought up in a certain household.. or county. But we live in a society where social status is the be all end all, and cosmopolitanism and liberal attitudes in general are tied to social status (of note is the fact that liberals are frequently accused of being self-congratulatory), so people are rarely conscious of the fact that supporting gay marriage doesn't make you better than those smelly southerners; your views are just the product of external socialisation.

 

Something similar could be said for everything that "makes you, you." People consider others "intelligent" rather than a product of educational, class and racial advantage. Or we think of people as "funny" rather than people who were facilitated in cultivating a skill exploiting human genetics and cultural sensibilities to endear themselves to others through humour. This is why, in the United States, we see the Republican Party gettin away with using "job creators" as a euphemism for disgustingly rich people, as if they built all the roads and hospitals and aeroplanes and universities that allow them to run their businesses, by themselves. Again, all of this self-evident stuff is obscured by individualist dogma.

Edited by Melchior

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Niobium

your views are just the product of external socialisation.

 

it takes a village to raise a child.

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GrandMaster Smith

I think the simplest way to justify yourself is to just be a kind person. Put yourself in their shoes and imagine how it'd feel before saying or doing something to them. Be humble and admit when you're wrong and apologize, don't lie, cheat or steal and I feel you'll never have a worry in the world as long as you're sincere. Lying and stealing will only cause harm and anxiety no matter what the short term benefit is, and the more you bury these emotions the more mentally unstable you'll become in the long run. Being selfless and putting others before yourself really is rewarding in on it's own anyhow I feel.

Edited by GrandMaster Smith

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Absurdity

:devil:

Edited by Absurdity

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uNi

if you were born and raised differently you would think and act completely different.

 

I don't agree. I have a mind of my own to make use of, I have my beliefs and opinions like everyone else, but I chose what to believe in depending on what I see/read and makes more sense to me. Sure that might change over time but it makes part of life and experiencing things.

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Marty McFly

I think for everyone it depends on if intelligence/logical thinking is product of either genetics or education. If it's the former, most people would be intelligent or reasonable enough to not burn that witch, if it's the latter, we may have been part of that mob burning the witch because we were raised that way.

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S0lo

 

if you were born and raised differently you would think and act completely different.

 

I don't agree. I have a mind of my own to make use of, I have my beliefs and opinions like everyone else, but I chose what to believe in depending on what I see/read and makes more sense to me. Sure that might change over time but it makes part of life and experiencing things.

 

 

This is, even if it should not be the full truth, the best way to go about it imo, as it the most empowering one. The more you take your ability to induce change for a fact, the more it will be. Our mind is ultimately a very gullible one, and it is up to us to make use of that ourselves, instead of letting others do so.

Edited by King S0lo

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G's Ah's

I'm fine with what people do as long as it's consensual. You want to have loud angry sex on the front lawn at seven in the morning in full view of the kitchen window dressed as animals, go right ahead.

 

Of course, I don't condone things like murder, rape or any kind of physical and mental abuse. Other than that, no one really needs to care what people do.

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Clem Fandango

 

if you were born and raised differently you would think and act completely different.

 

I don't agree. I have a mind of my own to make use of, I have my beliefs and opinions like everyone else, but I chose what to believe in depending on what I see/read and makes more sense to me. Sure that might change over time but it makes part of life and experiencing things.

 

This isn't true in the slightest. You agree with the most overwhelming argument- not the most overwhelming evidence. If you are told your entire life by parents, teachers etc. that, say, the Earth is flat, then no evidence will convince you otherwise. Accepting that everyone you know is ignorant and that everything they say is suspect is much harder than rationalising away a bit of evidence. If you lived in Salem during the witch trials, you'd be burning people at the stake, because that's what people did then.

Edited by Melchior

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uNi

 

 

if you were born and raised differently you would think and act completely different.

 

I don't agree. I have a mind of my own to make use of, I have my beliefs and opinions like everyone else, but I chose what to believe in depending on what I see/read and makes more sense to me. Sure that might change over time but it makes part of life and experiencing things.

 

This isn't true in the slightest. You agree with the most overwhelming argument- not the most overwhelming evidence. If you are told your entire life by parents, teachers etc. that, say, the Earth is flat, then no evidence will convince you otherwise. Accepting that everyone you know is ignorant and that everything they say is suspect is much harder than rationalising away a bit of evidence. If you lived in Salem during the witch trials, you'd be burning people at the stake, because that's what people did then.

 

 

How isn't it true? Even without evidence you can still make your mind on something, it's a opinion and a belief not facts.

 

By that logic I would believe today there is a God, since that was the education that's been given to me, still I didn't accept it.

 

 

If you lived in Salem during the witch trials, you'd be burning people at the stake, because that's what people did then.

 

That makes no sense.

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GTA_stu

I think what Melch means is who you are and what your beliefs are, is quite down to circumstance. Also how you are now as a person wouldn't really have any bearing whatsoever on if you were born somewhere else or in a different time because you'd effectively be a completely different person. So whilst it's not certain, it is still likely that if you were around during the witch trials that you'd believe in witches and think nothing of burning them, because that was the prevailing attitude at the time.

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uNi

because that was the prevailing attitude at the time.

 

This is the part that I don't agree on. There's also a lot of weird stuff you can get into these days, doesn't mean we all do it.

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Absurdity
When you were growing up you never though you had an accent, you only learned that you had an accent due to the exposure of people with differing accents, but had you never had that exposure you would never have come to the conclusion that you had an accent.

Edited by Rusty Balls

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Dingdongs

 

 

because that was the prevailing attitude at the time.

This is the part that I don't agree on. There's also a lot of weird stuff you can get into these days, doesn't mean we all do it.

That's the point though. That wasn't "weird stuff" back in those days, it was totally normal.

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Clem Fandango

 

because that was the prevailing attitude at the time.

 

This is the part that I don't agree on. There's also a lot of weird stuff you can get into these days, doesn't mean we all do it.

 

So then how is indoctrination even a thing?

Edited by Melchior

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uNi

 

 

because that was the prevailing attitude at the time.

 

This is the part that I don't agree on. There's also a lot of weird stuff you can get into these days, doesn't mean we all do it.

 

So then how is indoctrination even a thing?

 

 

In a general way, of course, what I'm saying it can't be tied to everyone.

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YA BOY DIRT

This isn't true in the slightest. You agree with the most overwhelming argument- not the most overwhelming evidence. If you are told your entire life by parents, teachers etc. that, say, the Earth is flat, then no evidence will convince you otherwise. Accepting that everyone you know is ignorant and that everything they say is suspect is much harder than rationalising away a bit of evidence. If you lived in Salem during the witch trials, you'd be burning people at the stake, because that's what people did then.

So basically what you're saying is, "If all your friends jumped off a bridge, you would too."

 

For the majority of my youth up until the 6th grade, I was sent to Armenian Christian and parochial schools, where I was taught that God existed and that the word of the Bible is law. However, I still never found any of it true; regardless of what my peers believed or what my teachers explained to me, I simply couldn't believe it. My pops didn't believe either, and neither did my mom, but she's still a spiritual person for other reasons. Believing in herd mentality is fine, but it's not a fact. You forget that many people during the Salem trials fled from their towns and villages out of fear of potential lynching, and were able to seek asylum in other parts of the nation, instead of burning people at stakes just because everyone else was.

 

The Allegory of The Cave makes a great point illustrating your argument. In the cave, the men and women are mesmerized watching shadow puppets on the wall in front of them. To them, the shadow puppets on the wall is the only world they know, and nothing else. One man sitting near the back of the cave sees a crack of light come from behind and gets up, leaving the cave to see the outside world; he's blinded by its beauty and color and the sounds of nature, and rushes back into the cave to tell everyone about this wonderful place. Sadly, the denizens of the cave are so transfixed on their shadow puppets that they don't hear the man, and the man falls to the floor and weeps.

 

Here's a famous example: Oskar Schindler was a balding, bored-out-of-his-sh*t, opportunistic Nazi, who obtained a factory through his Nazi connections. He had no major artistic, oratory or athletic skills, and thought at that point, he had no way to make history in a positive way. But, with just 2 years of work, history would change. Through his tenacity and change of nature, he helped 1,200 Jews escape the Nazis. Now, a whole community of people proudly uses the name Schindlerjuden (Schindler's Jews) and is venerated highly in Israel. Schindler saw a problem and did whatever he could to solve it. Now tell me, shouldn't Schindler have done what his SS compatriots were doing and just killed the Jews instead? That's where free will comes in, pal.

Edited by Dirt

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Absurdity
The Stanley Milgram experiment,




And in particular the Asch Conformity Experiment are somewhat pertinent to what's been said.


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El Dildo

I've been trying to figure out how to reply to this thread now for awhile.

and it still doesn't really make any sense to me.

 

OP has suggested the premise that our core values and attitudes are inexorably bound to the places and people around which we were raised as children. for that matter he is partially correct and partially incorrect. obviously location and local mores/customs will have a considerable influence on any person. there's no arguing that whoever raised you and wherever you were raised will be critical factors in the development of your personality and beliefs.

 

but modern biology has also shown that our genetics can impact our behaviors and beliefs.

and history has shown us that - given the right circumstance - anyone can break free of their core influences and learn to change and grow. even in the face of seemingly overwhelming indoctrination and misguidance, people can come to understand the error of past ways.

 

at this point in time, I don't believe that we know enough about the human brain to really comprehend it's plasticity. I think the OP is wrong to say that we are absolutely tied to these experiences which defined us. but I'm also not sure that it even matters. why does anyone need to justify themselves? you do that in every waking moment already. you are who you are at any given moment. if you haven't killed yourself yet, then I guess you're feeling relatively justified with it all up until now.

 

I am who I am because I am.

if I were not me, then I wouldn't be.

 

if I were born in Salem a century ago maybe I would have burned witches.

but I wasn't born in Salem a century ago. and you know what else? not everyone in Salem wanted to burn witches. some people who lived there actually didn't agree with the whole ordeal.

 

so... yeah :breadfish:

Edited by El Diablo

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Share Sharqi

I think it's real lovely to hypothesise sometimes but on such a subject no rational assumptions can be made. We are all the unique product of the meeting of sperm and egg at a very specific time and under unalterable circumstances. To even toy with the notion of our 'selves' existing in any capacity beyond the present is to suggest that our conciousness is somehow transcendent, greater than our very physical origins. We cannot argue on the principle of being born at a separate time because that would not be us, that would be a different person.

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igotskiz

I wonder what the percentages of population that actually, Salem for example, WANTED to burn witches, and the others who just burned witches because they were following herd mentality.

 

I wonder if there have been any examples of an entire population acting out here mentality without doing what they specifically wanted.

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El Dildo

yeah I think the OP has setup a poor premise with his Salem Witch scenario.

 

the people and places that you grow up around can influence you heavily but they can also only influence you to such an extent.

it's not like EVERYONE in the South was ok with black slavery.

it's not like EVERYONE in Salem wanted to burn women alive.

 

there's much more going on here than simply 'monkey see, monkey do.'

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Absurdity
There are countless social venues that cultures use to encourage people to continue that particular cultures status quo.


You could say people are free, by all means, not to burn witches in Salam, or wherever, but they will be labeled as sociopaths and ostracized by all in that culture. Afterall in Nazi Germany, if you weren't a Nazi you were a sociopath, and Nazi Germany was not a welcome place to be for said sociopaths.


And a freedom to be ostracized and tormented is really not much of a freedom at all.

Edited by Rusty Balls

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reiniat

yeah I think the OP has setup a poor premise with his Salem Witch scenario.

 

the people and places that you grow up around can influence you heavily but they can also only influence you to such an extent.

it's not like EVERYONE in the South was ok with black slavery.

it's not like EVERYONE in Salem wanted to burn women alive.

 

there's much more going on here than simply 'monkey see, monkey do.'

If you just stood there and watched, does that make you a bad person?

My dad used to say that all the time "Youre not a good person if you just stand there watching the injustice happen"

Is it like RustyBalls says? How many good people prevented innocent women from being burnt in the stake? there is not a single record of that. But then American citizens did protest and acted against slavery...

Is that a proof we can change? Even if it is really REALLY slow...

 

As an anecdote Mexico did make slavery illegal in its very first constitution, back in 1810. We were not better than the people at USA, its just that our culture and society allowed it.

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igotskiz

 

snip

 

If you just stood there and watched, does that make you a bad person?

My dad used to say that all the time "Youre not a good person if you just stand there watching the injustice happen"

Is it like RustyBalls says? How many good people prevented innocent women from being burnt in the stake? there is not a single record of that. But then American citizens did protest and acted against slavery...

I don't think the same concept applies. There are different reactions to your actions that a society with a due process legal system has versus one that burns people at the stake for even a mention of a imaginary characteristic.

 

Nowadays the worse that can happen is ostracization (or inprisonment, if you interfere with injustice in an unlawful way). Back then you may have been burned at the stake too. Who knows?

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johnathanbell

Yes this is a good topic.

 

I want to vote conservative but I feel like I should vote for liberals, even socialist if that was in the realm of possibility but not as far as communism because I rarely put in a full days worth of work in a week.. I want to join the army and serve my country but I could not be bothered. I want to help the homeless but I spend so much concentration trying not to make eye contact as a way to distract myself from the issues at hand. Apparently I give the maximum we can claim in tax deductions to charities but I have no idea what that actually means I just sign papers and wait in line at banks. To be honest I like to pay taxes it makes me feel productive and like I contribute to our country I get disappointing when we do not have to pay that much in taxes for two reasons, the one I said earlier and the fact that means we did not make as much money this year. I would call high taxes a win win.

 

I was born in 1991 and let me tell you the teens now in the generation right after me are the ones who are going to make this world keep going around because while they watched us be ignorant and snobs they where working or doing chores that we. as in where I lived, would just do drugs and confide ourselves to our rooms till the night when we would sneak out and be still bombed in elementary school for the morning.

 

These are all the things I have to say about how I would justify myself. I would be more then happy to reply to comments or constructive criticism.

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igotskiz

let me tell you the teens now in the generation right after me are the ones who are going to run this world into the ground

Fixed that typo for ya'.

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Share Sharqi

 

The pustule-ridden, decaying meat-sacks - the teens of tomorrow, are the ground upon which the western world will shamelessly perform an unfunny, culturally-appropriated dance number and grin mirthfully, celebrating the ignorance of the general populace.

Fixed that typo for ya'.

 

FIFY again

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