esato Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 The wildlife system was better in RDR. Furthermore I enjoyed the use of horses as a method of transportation as well. Why would they make the cougar appear on the map before its attacking you?! In Red Dead Redemption it appeared out of nowhere and attacked you. Yeah, the only signal of the cougar was it's sound... If u hear the grudge... Be prepared to die if u are on foot... If run to the cliffs in on horse. Hahah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieleng Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 What I'd really like to see is the RDR development team (R* San Diego I believe?) make a GTA game. Imagine. I can't wait for R* San Diego's next game, as long as it's not another Midnight Club. However, GTA is Rockstar North's baby & I doubt they would ever fully hand over development duties to another team. Apparently San Diego were the one's who created the RAGE engine & I think RDR was in development before GTA IV. RDR & TLOU were my top two games of last gen & I can't wait to see what those teams have in store for us this gen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Official General Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 @ UAL I never even used dead-eye on Edgar Ross and his brother, I hit them with straight up, manually aimed headshots. Edgar himself, I shot at least 10 ten times in his head, the gore was so well done, it look so real - his head and skull got more redder and more mangled with each shot. RDR, what a f*ckin' masterpiece. There needs to be a sequel, I heard one is coming out next year, a rumor. UAL 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANIEL3GS Posted December 26, 2014 Author Share Posted December 26, 2014 RDR also had many interiors and hidden places to find. RDR had many houses which you could enter.(e.g on Tall Trees where you could hide from the animals) And also there is the fact thatvwe always have snow in SP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shade04rek Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 Rdr also had the best fist fighting and overall "ragdoll". People stumbled over with their legs when downed. The gunplay was better in feeling you did damage to people, graphics wise, where headshoting and killing people in gtav feels less satisfying with less feeling impact. everything that can be done on foot in rdr is better to me, horseback or carriage isn't really comparable but that was good too. this paragraph is more of an opinion, but I personally don't see how it's wrong. The story gave me feels like no other, where v really didnt even get close to doing that. The only thing I can really give v is it's modern day theme being best to date and that it did vehicles very well compared to many before it. It's only competition in that is gtaiv, which is debatable. I will say rdr is superior in making me a happy camper overall, but I can admit they both kinda sorta had different goals I suppose. Both are sandbox shooters and are very similar, but still kinda apples and oranges in regards of that both gave me something the other couldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Algonquin Assassin Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 GTA V is simply a good game, but RDR is the epitome of art in video game form. Official General, matajuegos01, TaazR and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlitoDorito Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 (edited) probably the dumbest thing Ive read on the forums. Thanks for the christmas laugh To those who wait? Good things should come to those who f*cking payed cash money for the f*cking game when it f*cking released. SA delivered on release. No DLC necessary. RDR delivered on release. No DLC necessary but then they delivered again with Undead Nightmare. Since Vs release its been desperately crying for DLC. And that little '30 hours hunting bit' is just making you look like even more of a f*cking idiot considering theres TONS to do in RDR No need to be so angry! I know red dead had loads to do, I did everything there was to do, as well as 30 hours hunting. You know it's possible for someone to like both games right? GTA 5 has nothing to do, nothing at all. Happy now? Edited December 26, 2014 by CarlitoDorito Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matajuegos01 Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 RDR wins easily /thread MrDeSanta 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDeSanta Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 GTA V has alot to do but let`s take a quick look which game has better things to do; GTA V; -"hunting" (it`s probably the worst hunting i`ve every saw in some game. It doesn`t even deserves to be called like that. It`s pretty much just kill 50 elks in 2 minutes, photograph their bodies (is this a joke R*?) and just leave their corpses there because Cletus will come to pick them later. Wtf?) -yoga (don`t even get me started on this one) -tennis (ok but it has no replay value) -golf (pretty good for a game actually but it`s not exactly an excitment) -races (they are so easy that they feel useless) -scuba diving (pretty cool tho but you get bored of it quick) -collecting nuclear waste (really annoying and time consuming activity mostly due to that submarine handles like a piece of crap and you need 10 minutes to travel half of mile) -collecting submarine parts (boooring) -stunts (considering how fast you die when landing hard in V this isn`t an enjoyable activity) -cinema (really?) -darts (i think we have enough of it since Roman) -paracuting (pretty decent activity) -flight school (it gets boring very quick) -hanging out with your friends (why? Like i haven`t got enough of listening them during the gameplay) - "random events" (seriously? Looks like R* forgot what the word RANDOM actually means) RDR; -hunting minigame with challenges (personally i never get bored of this in RDR) -sharpshooting challenges (lots of replay value) -cleaning the gang hideouts (i could do it 100x more times and i still wouldn`t get bored of) -bounty hunting (great activity, especially in Tall Trees where you need to fight bears coming your way while you`re fighting off endless waves of enemies on your way to Blackwater jail) -tresaure hunter (interesting and rewarding) -survivalist challenge (picking up so many plants could get eventually boring but since you need to always look for dangerous animals it`s pretty interesting) -arm wrestling (fun to listen to your opponents`s voices) -breaking horses (searching for Hungarian half breed in Mexico and American Standardbreed in Tall Trees is interesting and rewarding since you have the advantage of riding the fastest horses in the game -5 finger fillet (amusing as hell) - poker (love to cheat and then get called on a duel. Disarm your opponent and repeat that 10x and your fame goes up very fast) -strangers are actually interesting in this game -random events are actually random unlike in V So, yeah no doubt- RDR wins in every way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavlah Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 GTA V has alot to do but let`s take a quick look which game has better things to do; GTA V; -"hunting" (it`s probably the worst hunting i`ve every saw in some game. It doesn`t even deserves to be called like that. It`s pretty much just kill 50 elks in 2 minutes, photograph their bodies (is this a joke R*?) and just leave their corpses there because Cletus will come to pick them later. Wtf?) -yoga (don`t even get me started on this one) -tennis (ok but it has no replay value) -golf (pretty good for a game actually but it`s not exactly an excitment) -races (they are so easy that they feel useless) -scuba diving (pretty cool tho but you get bored of it quick) -collecting nuclear waste (really annoying and time consuming activity mostly due to that submarine handles like a piece of crap and you need 10 minutes to travel half of mile) -collecting submarine parts (boooring) -stunts (considering how fast you die when landing hard in V this isn`t an enjoyable activity) -cinema (really?) -darts (i think we have enough of it since Roman) -paracuting (pretty decent activity) -flight school (it gets boring very quick) -hanging out with your friends (why? Like i haven`t got enough of listening them during the gameplay) - "random events" (seriously? Looks like R* forgot what the word RANDOM actually means) RDR; -hunting minigame with challenges (personally i never get bored of this in RDR) -sharpshooting challenges (lots of replay value) -cleaning the gang hideouts (i could do it 100x more times and i still wouldn`t get bored of) -bounty hunting (great activity, especially in Tall Trees where you need to fight bears coming your way while you`re fighting off endless waves of enemies on your way to Blackwater jail) -tresaure hunter (interesting and rewarding) -survivalist challenge (picking up so many plants could get eventually boring but since you need to always look for dangerous animals it`s pretty interesting) -arm wrestling (fun to listen to your opponents`s voices) -breaking horses (searching for Hungarian half breed in Mexico and American Standardbreed in Tall Trees is interesting and rewarding since you have the advantage of riding the fastest horses in the game -5 finger fillet (amusing as hell) - poker (love to cheat and then get called on a duel. Disarm your opponent and repeat that 10x and your fame goes up very fast) -strangers are actually interesting in this game -random events are actually random unlike in V So, yeah no doubt- RDR wins in every way. but that is your opinion. nothing more. and they are vastly different games, its like comparing call of duty 3 to modern warfare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquahaze2 Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 So there's a lot of butt hurt people here for some reason but I'll just say this Red dead redemtions story/single player is unpassed (expect maybe by GTA iv) to date, and GTA Vs online is unpassed to date God now o can't think of which I liked more, GTA IV or RDR...either way I'll take GTA online either of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krysalis Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 Rockstar is getting lazier. How come the game like RDR which was made 4 years ago on old gen and with half of the budged V had, did do better in so many aspects? Why they couldn`t make the gun damage system the same for V when they had more resources and more money to do so? This is very flawed if you ask me. You shoot someone in the leg or arm and he will act the same while in RDR they will act properly. Remember at least 6-7 type of executions we had in RDR? Gore was and absolute madness. You could shoot someone in each knee and then when they fell down on it you could get close to them and blow their brains out with sawn-off shotgun. It was very graphic and it felt really terrible. You actually felt bad for doing that because everything was so real and graphic and the person were reacting very realistic. Blood, screams, moans, begging, all that felt so natural. In V killing people is really bland and shallow. Like you`re killing some dummies. Not that i`m some psycho who likes to watch gore but i like having things more real and graphic. Because the result is completely vice versa. After i executed few people on various ways in RDR just for test i never wanted to harm anyone anymore in that game except in the missions of course.. Everything felt so realistic that i actually felt bad for those people. I don`t have that feeling in V when killing those brainless robots. Now i think this is a good pinpoint about which game has more details. RDR wins in every way. From what i've seen gore looks simmilar, its just that higher graphical quality of GTA V tricks your eyes. Besides, they are two different games in their own style, and if you adore gore so much then bestgore.com is your friend. Amistrulez 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esato Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 GTA V has alot to do but let`s take a quick look which game has better things to do; GTA V; -"hunting" (it`s probably the worst hunting i`ve every saw in some game. It doesn`t even deserves to be called like that. It`s pretty much just kill 50 elks in 2 minutes, photograph their bodies (is this a joke R*?) and just leave their corpses there because Cletus will come to pick them later. Wtf?) -yoga (don`t even get me started on this one) -tennis (ok but it has no replay value) -golf (pretty good for a game actually but it`s not exactly an excitment) -races (they are so easy that they feel useless) -scuba diving (pretty cool tho but you get bored of it quick) -collecting nuclear waste (really annoying and time consuming activity mostly due to that submarine handles like a piece of crap and you need 10 minutes to travel half of mile) -collecting submarine parts (boooring) -stunts (considering how fast you die when landing hard in V this isn`t an enjoyable activity) -cinema (really?) -darts (i think we have enough of it since Roman) -paracuting (pretty decent activity) -flight school (it gets boring very quick) -hanging out with your friends (why? Like i haven`t got enough of listening them during the gameplay) - "random events" (seriously? Looks like R* forgot what the word RANDOM actually means) RDR; -hunting minigame with challenges (personally i never get bored of this in RDR) -sharpshooting challenges (lots of replay value) -cleaning the gang hideouts (i could do it 100x more times and i still wouldn`t get bored of) -bounty hunting (great activity, especially in Tall Trees where you need to fight bears coming your way while you`re fighting off endless waves of enemies on your way to Blackwater jail) -tresaure hunter (interesting and rewarding) -survivalist challenge (picking up so many plants could get eventually boring but since you need to always look for dangerous animals it`s pretty interesting) -arm wrestling (fun to listen to your opponents`s voices) -breaking horses (searching for Hungarian half breed in Mexico and American Standardbreed in Tall Trees is interesting and rewarding since you have the advantage of riding the fastest horses in the game -5 finger fillet (amusing as hell) - poker (love to cheat and then get called on a duel. Disarm your opponent and repeat that 10x and your fame goes up very fast) -strangers are actually interesting in this game -random events are actually random unlike in V So, yeah no doubt- RDR wins in every way. You forgot the cinema that we have in armadillo, RDR. LCJ and Raiden1018 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r3h4n786 Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 No sharp palm tree shadows? Pre-order once again cancelled. Lool xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANIEL3GS Posted December 26, 2014 Author Share Posted December 26, 2014 (edited) Rockstar is getting lazier. How come the game like RDR which was made 4 years ago on old gen and with half of the budged V had, did do better in so many aspects? Why they couldn`t make the gun damage system the same for V when they had more resources and more money to do so? This is very flawed if you ask me. You shoot someone in the leg or arm and he will act the same while in RDR they will act properly. Remember at least 6-7 type of executions we had in RDR? Gore was and absolute madness. You could shoot someone in each knee and then when they fell down on it you could get close to them and blow their brains out with sawn-off shotgun. It was very graphic and it felt really terrible. You actually felt bad for doing that because everything was so real and graphic and the person were reacting very realistic. Blood, screams, moans, begging, all that felt so natural. In V killing people is really bland and shallow. Like you`re killing some dummies. Not that i`m some psycho who likes to watch gore but i like having things more real and graphic. Because the result is completely vice versa. After i executed few people on various ways in RDR just for test i never wanted to harm anyone anymore in that game except in the missions of course.. Everything felt so realistic that i actually felt bad for those people. I don`t have that feeling in V when killing those brainless robots. Now i think this is a good pinpoint about which game has more details. RDR wins in every way. From what i've seen gore looks simmilar, its just that higher graphical quality of GTA V tricks your eyes. Besides, they are two different games in their own style, and if you adore gore so much then bestgore.com is your friend. RDR has much stronger gore effects. If you shot someone in the head there would be a hole. And every shot looked more painful, in GTAV it feels like you are shooting a doll. Edited December 26, 2014 by DANIEL3GS MrDeSanta 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDeSanta Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 Also the explosion sounds are awesome in RDR. You can actually hear the ringing sounds like that when you shoot with a gun without ear protection and your ears will be ringing for few seconds. Not to mention the wanted level which was one of the best i`ve ever saw in any game. Realistic. Only the actual eyewitness could report your crime and give you a wanted level. Unlike in V where you get the star seconds after you blow your own vehilce in the middle of desert with noone around. Also there weren`t endless amounts of law enforcment guys coming after you. Once you killed them all you lost your wanted level and only the bounty remained. And each town or a settlement had different number of law enforcment personell. Foreman, sheriff, marshall, police and mexican army. Everything was made so unique and realistic. This was probably the most grounded game i`ve every played. Not realistic like real life but realistic as a game. UAL and Official General 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruup20 Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 I personally like GTA V more, i've bought rdr and got bored of it pretty quickly. Not becouse it's a bad game, it certainly isn't, but in gta v there's so much veriety in everything. All the diffrent cars, guns, envoirment and missions. In rdr there's just the horse and the donkey. I do think the revolvers from rdr should come tot gta though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANIEL3GS Posted December 26, 2014 Author Share Posted December 26, 2014 Also the explosion sounds are awesome in RDR. You can actually hear the ringing sounds like that when you shoot with a gun without ear protection and your ears will be ringing for few seconds. Not to mention the wanted level which was one of the best i`ve ever saw in any game. Realistic. Only the actual eyewitness could report your crime and give you a wanted level. Unlike in V where you get the star seconds after you blow your own vehilce in the middle of desert with noone around. Also there weren`t endless amounts of law enforcment guys coming after you. Once you killed them all you lost your wanted level and only the bounty remained. And each town or a settlement had different number of law enforcment personell. Foreman, sheriff, marshall, police and mexican army. Everything was made so unique and realistic. This was probably the most grounded game i`ve every played. Not realistic like real life but realistic as a game. After years i realised if you have a high wanted level they will even send dogs to get you. MrDeSanta 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDeSanta Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 Also the explosion sounds are awesome in RDR. You can actually hear the ringing sounds like that when you shoot with a gun without ear protection and your ears will be ringing for few seconds. Not to mention the wanted level which was one of the best i`ve ever saw in any game. Realistic. Only the actual eyewitness could report your crime and give you a wanted level. Unlike in V where you get the star seconds after you blow your own vehilce in the middle of desert with noone around. Also there weren`t endless amounts of law enforcment guys coming after you. Once you killed them all you lost your wanted level and only the bounty remained. And each town or a settlement had different number of law enforcment personell. Foreman, sheriff, marshall, police and mexican army. Everything was made so unique and realistic. This was probably the most grounded game i`ve every played. Not realistic like real life but realistic as a game. After years i realised if you have a high wanted level they will even send dogs to get you. Yes there will be few dogs along with the US marshalls at higher bounty. And those dogs are so freaking fast you really need to ride at full speed if you want to outrun them. They also pick your scent from a distance. And one thing i also noticed but not before my 4.th playthrough. You can actually hide from cops. The same was said for V but in V`s case that isn`t going to always work at higher wanted levels since the cops somehow become psychics after 3.rd star but in RDR you can really do that. Try it, it`s fun as hell. I`ve managed to get into the hiding in that wooden cabin in Aurora Basin. Marshall`s posse were looking for me, they were even circling the area but noone entered the cabin so the stars dissapeared eventually. Man it was great i didn`t even realize that`s possible before. DANIEL3GS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raiden1018 Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 probably the dumbest thing Ive read on the forums. Thanks for the christmas laugh To those who wait? Good things should come to those who f*cking payed cash money for the f*cking game when it f*cking released. SA delivered on release. No DLC necessary. RDR delivered on release. No DLC necessary but then they delivered again with Undead Nightmare. Since Vs release its been desperately crying for DLC. And that little '30 hours hunting bit' is just making you look like even more of a f*cking idiot considering theres TONS to do in RDR No need to be so angry! I know red dead had loads to do, I did everything there was to do, as well as 30 hours hunting. You know it's possible for someone to like both games right? GTA 5 has nothing to do, nothing at all. Happy now? Come on, man... Don't use that tone of voice with me or I'll whip out 'da belt! CarlitoDorito 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeCNeEk Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 To make a long story short, I believe Red Dead Redemption was the best game of the last generation. Everything about that game was incredible. I could go on and on about why RDR is amazing, but most of you here know what made it so special. GTA V is the best game out currently on any next-gen system which I find pretty funny. Both games are 10/10 experiences in my honest opinion, and shouldn't be forced to face off against each other. They are both incredible in their own ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Official General Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 (edited) To make a long story short, I believe Red Dead Redemption was the best game of the last generation. Everything about that game was incredible. I could go on and on about why RDR is amazing, but most of you here know what made it so special. GTA V is the best game out currently on any next-gen system which I find pretty funny. Both games are 10/10 experiences in my honest opinion, and shouldn't be forced to face off against each other. They are both incredible in their own ways. Well the problem I have with your logic is that I don't find GTA V incredible, I find RDR incredible. It's great that you equally love both games in their own unique ways, but the whole point of this discussion, is a comparison. You can't dictate to others whether or not they should do it. Either you wanna take part or you don't, but it's pointless wading into a thread 'telling' people what they should or should not be discussing. Edited December 27, 2014 by Official General MrDeSanta 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDeSanta Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 Sure if you`re just counting the amount of things that each game has to do than of course V will win but if you compare the quality and replayability of these things, then RDR beats the sh*t out of V any day. V= quantity over quality RDR= quality over quantity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fwenshy Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 I hated RDR and thought it was unbearably boring. The first 10-15 missions are insanely mind numbing so much so that I immediately stopped playing the game. And the map is sooooooooo boring with small identical villages dotted about. Then there's the absolutely terrible acting and poor poor script (not the story line as I never finished the game but they way it's written) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlitoDorito Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 (edited) Red dead redemption did a lot of things better than V, nothing in V really compares to the ride into mexico, the ending was a shocker, John Marston was one of the best game characters ever I think. The atmosphere was so different to GTA, the city is impossible to compare to the west. I think it's R*'s masterpiece. GTA V is also way up there in terms of quality and quantity (vehicles, weapons, clothes, radio, mission variety, that stuff, not activities), It may not have some things people want but it doesn't feel really slow and clunky, It looks expensive and feels nice to play. Some SP DLC could really expand it, Even more of them things like vehicles and weapons, but more activities and stuff. It would make the game stupidly big. But right now it's too early to tell whether it'll be an expansion, or a small 2 hours of extra game play. RDR wins for me in terms of character, atmosphere, things to do. V is very close. A lot of the things are harder to compare, only because it's quite different, V's story is action movie, a bit silly, RDR is more serious, RDR map is very different to V. They're Just both R* sandbox games for me, they're usually quite good. This isn't fact it's opinion. Edited December 27, 2014 by CarlitoDorito Raiden1018 and MrDeSanta 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDeSanta Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 (edited) I hated RDR and thought it was unbearably boring. The first 10-15 missions are insanely mind numbing so much so that I immediately stopped playing the game. And the map is sooooooooo boring with small identical villages dotted about. Then there's the absolutely terrible acting and poor poor script (not the story line as I never finished the game but they way it's written) I know there are diferent opinions and all but you must have pretty weird taste according to what you just wrote. Or you`re just being sarcastic? There aren`t many people who would find RDR boring while V on the other hand does get boring pretty quick. Edited December 27, 2014 by MrDeSanta DrAnomalous 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krysalis Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 (edited) RDR has much stronger gore effects. If you shot someone in the head there would be a hole. And every shot looked more painful, in GTAV it feels like you are shooting a doll. There's a hole in head in GTA V, i suggest to people like you to stop being a fanboy's and pay more attention to internal details instead of external details only. Edited December 28, 2014 by Andreas Removed quote-train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UAL Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 GTA V's "gore" was terrible. Even the gore in IV wasn't particularly great. You shoot someone and all that appears is a red smudge on their body. RDR's was really detailed. Raiden1018 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Vlad Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 GTA V and RDR are both great games. The main difference for me is, that I feel that they maxed out RDR´s SP experience. They did all they could do to make it the master piece it is. V´s SP is still great and I think it is a master piece too, but it could have been even greater, if they didn´t water it down due to luring people into Online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raiden1018 Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 (edited) GTA V's "gore" was terrible. Even the gore in IV wasn't particularly great. You shoot someone and all that appears is a red smudge on their body. RDR's was really detailed. oh my god... i remember this random event where a dude held a women to the ground with a knife by the saloon in armadillo and I took out a shottie and popped him in the head. That detail was gruesome... There's a hole in head in GTA V, i suggest to people like you to stop being a fanboy's and pay more attention to internal details instead of external details only. You cant be serious. Now YOU have to be a fanboy to think that the level of gore in RDR is equal to that of Vs. You can shoot a guys skull into bits and pieces, all you can do is 5 is give them period face. I hated RDR and thought it was unbearably boring. The first 10-15 missions are insanely mind numbing so much so that I immediately stopped playing the game. And the map is sooooooooo boring with small identical villages dotted about. Then there's the absolutely terrible acting and poor poor script (not the story line as I never finished the game but they way it's written) I....I... I just... I can't... I just can't. Edited December 28, 2014 by Andreas Removed quote-train. MrDeSanta 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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