Grand Theft Auto III Pre-Release Discussion

[Anywhere USA]

On 7/24/2023 at 3:36 PM, universetwisters said:

 

Is this the one you're talking about?

 

On the subject, I believe the one I'm replying to is from April or May 2001, the one I'm replying WITH is from March or February, and the full size Beta Map is from October 2000.

I believe the one I have here was showing roughly what they had complete when the choice to move the airport was made(Most sources I've found seem to suggest the original larger map was abandoned sometime in Late February 2001)

[Anywhere USA]

Here's a side by side roughly scaled

[Anywhere USA]

The thing that immediately sticks out like a sore thumb to me is that Belleville Park(probably Liberty Park at this point) was actually temporarily cut when the Construction Site took it's original spot. It wasn't moved to it's original location til the late June early july era map renders(by which point Staunton is mostly the same as today barrring the Peninsula in Newport).

 

This means 3 buildings that(based on the Xs which if we look at which areas are developed and which are white on the prior map seemingly marks finished areas) were fully complete were cut to make room for Belleville Park.

Which combined with the fact I see Bank on the side list(and the side list is not 100% to the map with the crossed out areas)...reminds me of an old theory I had.

 

Can someone give me a rough outline of what Jigglypuff Ghost Town looks like seen from above? I've got a hunch.

 

(P.S. Seemingly at this point the Docks/Harbor area was still going to be it's original more built up size. If you ignore what I assume are meant to be moored barges in the first image it was still basically the same as the original plan at this point.)

(P.P.S. Also I found the source for the people who were saying the bank was originally in Portland. It's a multiplayer map that's an expanded version of the Bank already there. Not what I was referring to).

Edited June 17, 2024 by Anywhere USA

[Lioshenka]

2 hours ago, Anywhere USA said:

Can someone give me a rough outline of what Jigglypuff Ghost Town looks like seen from above? I've got a hunch.

 Nothing like the three cut blocks, I am afraid, but I agree that you might be on to something - great theory!

 

Quite possible that the original models were butchered, and parts of them re-used as Ghost town. The layout was likely changed to make for believable background with certain camera angles given that the streets no longer exited in their entirety.

[Anywhere USA]

One of the 3 cut buildings is City Hall, the shape sticks out. Certainly makes more sense than it being shoved in the corner half behind the bridge and merged with the court house.
One of the other ones might be the art gallery. If the Bank was there it would be the third one.

 

I can’t remember what that design doc video said, maybe the art gallery is in the spot where the court and town hall is in the final game?

 

It might be worth going through that list and sorting out and labeling the known spots so we can work through what’s left.

 

I also might break the island down into sections to do a side by side direct plus the final map.

 

I genuinely believe the beta versions of Staunton and Portland were mostly finished or had their assets used elsewhere(Most of Staunton outside the airport was done and hey, we have the airport assets), with a leak of an early 2001 build we’d probably be able to restore Portland and Staunton to their origjnal size.

 

Meanwhile I doubt work even really started on Shoreside. The October 2000 map that already shows a mostly developed Portland(December 2000 is the build all those cartoony screenshots came from) and while there’s a few models implied to exist in the design doc I doubt it had gotten far by the time of the change. Or atleast that entire new southern area wasn’t. The larger versions of Pike Creek and Cedar Grove might have stuck around as ideas a bit longer.

 

 

[Anywhere USA]

Outside of the airport, all the cut sections of Staunton were at least partially finished(to the degree of roads anyway) by the second Beta map. It's still there.

By the third Beta Map It's mostly been cut, but notably the 3 buildings in modern Bellville park are on that one.

[Anywhere USA]

[Anywhere USA]

These maps add on editions from beyond the original map to sort of show the best version of Staunton's map with everything planned.

The second map Xs out minor variations which I believe were just extended versions of pre-existing locations. So the elongated stadium parking lot, some grassy extra coast, an extention of the Apatria Coastal Park trail, and a exstention of the construction site.(albeit that last one may have had some unique assets, hard to say, but it's clearly part of the site.)

Plus the airport who's assets all exist, they just got moved. I also greened out the peninsula since we DO know what was on it thanks to the PS2 and XBOX manual renders, it's just green with trees, though the beta map suggests the pier it replaced should have been on the tip. We actually have far far more than first seems.

 

So in terms of actual new areas we don't really know too much about, we have, from top to bottom, left to right...

1. Two diamond areas north of new Bellville Park and west of Old Liberty Park. The northern half looks it might also be part of the stadium parking lot if those little shapes are cars, hard to say. The southern two are clearly buildings of some sort, not sure what would go there. It's come to my mind though that if the parking lot is that much bigger, the Colombian Warehouse might need to be moved, and it might be one of those two. Hard to say, but the shape does kinda match. No clue on the other. I could be wrong about the top part being cars anyway.

 

2. A pair of small empty blocks north of the fire station. The southern half MIGHT be an extension of it, but seemingly there's already room for it to be less crowded given that the Lift Bridge isn't a weird helix anymore, that underbridge spot is probably the parking spot. The northern half is blank on the two maps that have it so Rockstar clearly didn't know either.

 

3. Two buildings(?) and a weird empty looking area with a small road. No clue here, they may very well be stuff tied to the apriport given the location, stuff like the statue area or ticket booth. The top spot might be an etrance way, or part of the construction site. Those white lines on the original map always confused me, but I note that the northern most one lines up with the small diagonal road in Rockford.

 

4. 2 lots of identical, weird jax shaped structures. They're too skinny to be Projects buildings and too wide and too south to be aircraft loader ramps. I don't know what these are. I will note on the original beta map the northern one had rows of cars or containers or something and only had the southern one had  the Xs, while in the second beta map a few months later has them both with the xs.

 

5. 3 buildings kept into the early Beta eventually replaced when they brought back the Park. Unlike most, this one explicitly survived until Juneish, and WAS finished. Probably the single most likely spot to have contained the bank.

 

6. An enlarged port area nearly double the size of the pre-existing one, with a cargo ship similar to the two in Portland harbor. Assets here probably already exist, we have cargo boats in 3 and VC, he know how big flat dock space looks. Some of this might have contributed to Portland Harbor being slightly enlarged from the original.

 

7. A narrow set of 4, relatively small building lots, just north of Callahan Street. This area effectively just got sliced out given how rectangular it was. No clue.

(Oh and the area under Callahan Bridge might look slightly different as it's no longer bendy.

 

That's it. Everything else already exists to some degree. That's arguably less than Portland having an entire Factory and Nuclear Plant completely cut plus the roads and surrounding coast.

 

[Anywhere USA]

It's up to you from here on

[Mattheush]

On 6/16/2024 at 9:05 PM, TractorMTZ said:

I found on Youtibe GTA III prototype gameplay with Tom Novy music

How high is percentage, that is an actual beta version and not a fake?

[Anywhere USA]

7 minutes ago, Mattheush said:

How high is percentage, that is an actual beta version and not a fake?

the description says its fake

[Anywhere USA]

10 minutes ago, Anywhere USA said:

It's up to you from here on

3 things.

1. Looking at the design document video, the Art Gallery/Art Museum is where the Town Hall ended up in the final game. So that white area near the bridge is the art gallery.

2. In December 2000, the Court House and City Hall were to be one building(ironically in the final game City Hall ended up sharing with the Museum). However, at this specific point in development, all 3 were seperate buildings. The Courthouse was a green square in it's modern location I filled out, so it's out of the running. And that smaller building in the art gallery spot is the modern one. So where is this then?

Based on the shape I assume this is one of the 3 buildings where Belleville ended up, specifically the southern one.

 

3. I learned I messed up with my map. Town Hall and City Hall are not the same thing. Alongside City Hall(which in the final game is shared with the Museum, in the early stage was shared with the courthouse, and in the intermediate stage was seperate) there's two Town Halls, old and new  town hall, muncipal buildings both located in the Belleville area. Were they both planned yet? Hard to say, but one of the Xed out spots is probably that so keep that in mind. Was THIS hybrid building meant to be City Hall based on the size or Town Hall? The video uses the terms interchangably so I'm guessing he made the same mistake I did. I dunno.

 

I'll also note that Police Station was written twice initially, both crossed out. I kept the Color Coded one, but interestingly it didn't line up with the modern police spot, yet the cross suggests it was done and that spot WAS crossed out. Simple update? There are other colors that don't quite fit either and Spot 4 looks like it was pasted over some old pink.

And a couple of the early entries like Skyscraper or Manky Area might be more general guides. This was probably a living template

 

 

 

[Anywhere USA]

After googling and re-looking at old maps and checking British use of terms like Theatre and Tenament and Hi/Lo and looking at in-game areas i've got it to this.

The Ferry Port is either in the larger port area, or it's that little water bit in the dead south.

 

I'm not sure what that section in the south is. In the final game all that's there is a Dojo the Yakuza gets protection money from anda alleyway with a package. Even in this it's all small shops I just don't know what's what.

I eliminated a lot, tenaments were the slummy apartment complexes in the north, Newport had the hi/lo buildings, two of the garages were in the central area tied to missions.(The ones in Newport) Not sure on the other 2, maybe it means Claude's and Rays? The Hotel district was said to be connected to an underground parking lot which combined with a ton of hotels having distinct flag entranceways especially in Europe told me it's the belt of buildings on the west coast, plus the color matched.

 

Regardless, there are two notable large building spots still unaccounted for. And there are only two notable names missing....

[Anywhere USA]

(Toshiro's place could totally be where Love Media is, given the December 2000 design document clearly has Toshiro fully in Love's role. However, Donald Love existed to some degree as early as March 1st 2001, over a month before this map. And the love media building is labeled "rooftop garden" on this map).

 

So yeah, I think the big square building in the middle of Bellville Block is Toshiro's place, while the one to the north of it is the Bank from the opening. Or the reverse.

Or in this version of the game THAT'S Love Media and Toshiro's place was in the heavy south...though due to the coloring I doubt that.

 

Toshiro and Love co-existed for a while. Love is first mentioned on March 1st 2001 in the Liberty Tree and was clearly finalized by the time trailers started coming out in Late July early August.

Toshiro dates back to 2000 and as far as I know this Map from April 2001 is the last time he himself is mentioned, but the counterfeiting scheme plotline lasted long enough to be namedropped in the BradyGames guide, albeit having been moved to Donald Love and then eventually made vague to play on the Taratino Diamonds effect.

 

Or maybe it was cut, was one of several holdovers no longer required, and that's just the square building from Newport and it got shuffled over a little bit. I'm 100% convinced on that top one being the bank though that absolutely existed at this time. Just from what we have in Ghost Town we know it was Staunton, and more specifically somewhere in the Southern half of Staunton. That's the only place the building style fits.

Edited June 20, 2024 by Anywhere USA

[TractorMTZ]

On 6/21/2024 at 1:11 AM, Mattheush said:

How high is percentage, that is an actual beta version and not a fake?

Well, gameplay same as E3 from 2001. And also in video is written which prototype version is from this GTA III.

[tiendadany17]

46 minutes ago, TractorMTZ said:

Well, gameplay same as E3 from 2001. And also in video is written which prototype version is from this GTA III.

There 2 things that could make i don't believe...

 

1. in the hiddenout the smoke particles was nerfed, in the ps2 and beta versión smoke particles are very strong have very smoke.

 

2. In the end of the video we can see claude walk toside same than pc version

[tiendadany17]

On 6/20/2024 at 6:40 PM, Anywhere USA said:

(Toshiro's place could totally be where Love Media is, given the December 2000 design document clearly has Toshiro fully in Love's role. However, Donald Love existed to some degree as early as March 1st 2001, over a month before this map. And the love media building is labeled "rooftop garden" on this map).

 

So yeah, I think the big square building in the middle of Bellville Block is Toshiro's place, while the one to the north of it is the Bank from the opening. Or the reverse.

Or in this version of the game THAT'S Love Media and Toshiro's place was in the heavy south...though due to the coloring I doubt that.

 

Toshiro and Love co-existed for a while. Love is first mentioned on March 1st 2001 in the Liberty Tree and was clearly finalized by the time trailers started coming out in Late July early August.

Toshiro dates back to 2000 and as far as I know this Map from April 2001 is the last time he himself is mentioned, but the counterfeiting scheme plotline lasted long enough to be namedropped in the BradyGames guide, albeit having been moved to Donald Love and then eventually made vague to play on the Taratino Diamonds effect.

 

Or maybe it was cut, was one of several holdovers no longer required, and that's just the square building from Newport and it got shuffled over a little bit. I'm 100% convinced on that top one being the bank though that absolutely existed at this time. Just from what we have in Ghost Town we know it was Staunton, and more specifically somewhere in the Southern half of Staunton. That's the only place the building style fits.

I think love skycrapper was originaly designed to toshiro, cause is a japanese garden therefore no have sense that love being american would had  this stage

[Guest]

On 6/21/2024 at 4:40 AM, Anywhere USA said:

(Toshiro's place could totally be where Love Media is, given the December 2000 design document clearly has Toshiro fully in Love's role. However, Donald Love existed to some degree as early as March 1st 2001, over a month before this map. And the love media building is labeled "rooftop garden" on this map).

 

So yeah, I think the big square building in the middle of Bellville Block is Toshiro's place, while the one to the north of it is the Bank from the opening. Or the reverse.

Or in this version of the game THAT'S Love Media and Toshiro's place was in the heavy south...though due to the coloring I doubt that.

 

Toshiro and Love co-existed for a while. Love is first mentioned on March 1st 2001 in the Liberty Tree and was clearly finalized by the time trailers started coming out in Late July early August.

Toshiro dates back to 2000 and as far as I know this Map from April 2001 is the last time he himself is mentioned, but the counterfeiting scheme plotline lasted long enough to be namedropped in the BradyGames guide, albeit having been moved to Donald Love and then eventually made vague to play on the Taratino Diamonds effect.

 

Or maybe it was cut, was one of several holdovers no longer required, and that's just the square building from Newport and it got shuffled over a little bit. I'm 100% convinced on that top one being the bank though that absolutely existed at this time. Just from what we have in Ghost Town we know it was Staunton, and more specifically somewhere in the Southern half of Staunton. That's the only place the building style fits.

I should let you know that Donald Love's garden is also internally named as "Toshiro's garden". Search up my earlier posts regarding Donald and Toshiro on this thread for more info.

 

Fine work on the findings though, keep it up and good luck with the rest of them.

Edited June 23, 2024 by H-G

[Jeansowaty]

I wanna drop by with some analysis regarding the audio loops featured in III and in particular in its files, revealing some beta-esque stuff here and there too.

 

390 - this is a house music excerpt played in Hepburn Heights, the riff originates from Bizzare Inc.'s - Took My Love but is not identical. Most identify it as DJ Roadrunner - Floating Waves which seems accurate but the date of release of this track is strange, being 2007? I have not found any earlier releases by DJ Roadrunner BUT it was used in a SpongeBob Squarepants episode dating back to 2006, a year earlier! Strange, huh. And also, here I want to bring you an interesting album by Cyrille Verdeaux and Pascal Menetrey (RIP) titled Tribal Hybrid Concept. It appears that someone at Rockstar really loved this album by how many things tied to it can be found in the files. The song Guimbarde Blues samples the same riff featured here but it appears the original sample of the riff is older than 1999 when the album was released. 

 

391 - another house music loop without much percussion and one bell noise played in Hepburn Heights, this song is usually identified as Housemaster '96 by DJ Hooligan, but I believe this is mere coincidence. It might be an in-house made beat by Rockstar.

 

392 - this is an acid riff from the 1992 song Respect Is Due (Breakbeat Hysteria Mix) by Altern 8. And it was sampled in Tribal Hybrid Concept as well in the song Soufi Dance! This is unused in the files.

 

393 - this is a short excerpt from the song Sex Drive (Hard Drive Mix) by Grace Jones. And guess what, it was again sampled on Tribal Hybrid Concept, in the song Tuva Bene, albeit it's not as easy to recognize. Unused.

 

394 - an unknown house track that was also used in GTA2 when you hang nearby some night clubs. The loop in III however is longer and has a more pronounced backing melody, it might be an in-house made song too. Unused.

 

395 - a hip hop-esque loop of unknown origin. Unused. No idea if this is homemade but I assume not, it's probably from an existing song but I haven't found anything so far.

 

396 - a simple gabber kick loop. Probably homemade at Rockstar. Unused. 397, 398, 399 and 401 seem to follow the same pattern and were merely homemade, even then they're too short to recognize a particular song in them. I assume Rockstar used a sample package CD for these.

 

400 - more pop/jazz sounding with a female voice, I assume this was meant to be used for strip clubs similar to the one played at Luigi's or Meeouch. Unknown origin and unused.

 

402 - a reggae excerpt... with spurious origin, I heard a bunch of suggestions such as a song by Papa San but guess where it was also sampled... on Tribal Hybrid Concept, on the final song of the album aptly named Keep Up Berlin. Another song that makes use of it is Dave Watson - Can't Hide, but it appears to have been released later. Funnily enough, Keep Up Berlin was used on KREZ in GTA2 in the intro section.

 

403 - Meeouch Sex Club loop, sounds alike to the mission passed theme ngl so it's 99% produced by Rockstar.

 

404 - Luigi's. Ditto.

 

406 - Sal's piano. Rockstar made too.

 

409 - left empty and unused whatsoever.

 

411 - Chinatown Laundry bass but it's very muted because of the washing machine noises (410). Probably made by Rockstar too.

 

412 - Lee's Peking Duck theme from Chinatown. Made by R* too probably.

 

413 - Toni's place.

 

414 - Empty but to my knowledge this was labelled as a restaurant loop. Unknown use.

 

415 - This is left empty but it's assigned to play by the door of Marco's Bistro. Interesting. 

 

416-419 - random banter used at Francis International. The only loop used in-game outside of Portland.

 

420-422 - these are labelled as "SOUND_SHOP" and are placed in two locations at the Chinatown market but are also left empty. 

 

423-425 - labelled as "CINEMA", sounds of thumps and muffled noises. Never placed anywhere but I assume it could work somewhere in Bedford Point.

 

426 - empty, but it's labelled as "DOCKS" so I assume it was meant to be a sound of a boat foghorn. It's placed in two spots at the docks as well.

 

427-431 - two voices having an argument, random quotes, all I can make out is one saying "you ain't all that". Used in Hepburn Heights by Misty's place, you can often hear these voices when starting missions for El Burro.

 

432-434 - first is a melody, the next two are sexual moans, used in the Red Light District at night. All probably made by Rockstar.

 

435-437 - different melody but same use. Used.

 

438-440 - ditto. I find it funny that they copy-pasted the sexual moans 3 times. Talk about saving space huh.

 

441 - Old School Hall loop used in the Fuzz Ball. It sounds to me like "Pretty Woman" but looped, could be made by Rockstar, who knows.

 

442 - alarm loop used since GTA2 in certan missions. Probably a stock sound effect.

 

443 - Animal Testing Centre - DSP from GTA1. Used in The Chaperone.

 

444 - Trancefer - Figiwhiz from GTA1. Was supposed to be used on a rave on Staunton Island.

 

445 - Retrograde - Benzoate from GTA1. Same use as 444 but in another location.

 

446 - Government Listening Post - E104 from GTA1. Was meant to be used on a rave on Shoreside Vale. I assume the "rave venues" were meant to have these loops play only at night similar to the Red Light ones. But who knows where these would be placed at. Some warehouses or off-key buildings probably.

 

447-455 are left empty and unused as well like 409. Rockstar likely planned to add FAR more ambient loops around city, GTA2 was chockful of these all around all 3 maps but after doing some in Portland they just winged it for the rest of the map.

[Anywhere USA]

7 hours ago, H-G said:

I should let you know that Donald Love's garden is also internally named as "Toshiro's garden". Search up my earlier posts regarding Donald and Toshiro on this thread for more info.

 

Fine work on the findings though, keep it up and good luck with the rest of them.

Thanks. Rooftop Garden was listed seperately oddly enough. 
 

One of the buildings in the middle absolutely has to be the Bank though just by process of elimination. The other one has to be one of the City Hall adjacents(though as I said that whole thing is messy). 

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, Anywhere USA said:

Thanks. Rooftop Garden was listed seperately oddly enough. 
 

One of the buildings in the middle absolutely has to be the Bank though just by process of elimination. The other one has to be one of the City Hall adjacents(though as I said that whole thing is messy). 

You might wanna see this, though, I have a feeling I might've found an accurate location for Belleville Park:

 

 

Taken from this post on page #41. Look at the rectangle outlined in green, doesn't it look like Belleville Park? Here's a zoomed-in version, look at the same place and you'll see:

 

[Anywhere USA]

You know I was wondering why Block 4 looked like it had been completely drawn over something pink shaded.

That doesn't actually narrow it down all that much, but one of the pink shaded options WAS the park....huh

 

Badger Goodger said it was in that tree area up further north, it looked basically the same size and even had a little triangle bit on it, I never questioned that...

[Anywhere USA]

11 hours ago, H-G said:

You might wanna see this, though, I have a feeling I might've found an accurate location for Belleville Park:

 

 

Taken from this post on page #41. Look at the rectangle outlined in green, doesn't it look like Belleville Park? Here's a zoomed-in version, look at the same place and you'll see:

 

Ok one thing then. The intermediate one, the one from when they gave up on this map and scaled back. I’ve seen what it looks like on there and it’s not a park 

On 6/17/2024 at 3:28 PM, Anywhere USA said:

On the subject, I believe the one I'm replying to is from April or May 2001, the one I'm replying WITH is from March or February, and the full size Beta Map is from October 2000.

I believe the one I have here was showing roughly what they had complete when the choice to move the airport was made(Most sources I've found seem to suggest the original larger map was abandoned sometime in Late February 2001)

In this one it looks like a housing block, meanwhile there’s still that tree filled area in the North 

[TractorMTZ]

21 hours ago, tiendadany17 said:

There 2 things that could make i don't believe...

 

1. in the hiddenout the smoke particles was nerfed, in the ps2 and beta versión smoke particles are very strong have very smoke.

 

2. In the end of the video we can see claude walk toside same than pc version

2001 E3 versions was morre finished (few months before release) and I think beggining of GTA III creation was around 1999 and 2000. BTW in hidden palace webpage you can download GTA 2 prototype version just several days before release.

[tiendadany17]

13 minutes ago, TractorMTZ said:

2001 E3 versions was morre finished (few months before release) and I think beggining of GTA III creation was around 1999 and 2000. BTW in hidden palace webpage you can download GTA 2 prototype version just several days before release.

You believe that someday can be leak a real beta versión ?

[TractorMTZ]

2 hours ago, tiendadany17 said:

You believe that someday can be leak a real beta versión ?

Who knows. But here's GTA 2 prototype version: https://hiddenpalace.org/Grand_Theft_Auto_2_(Sep_10,_1999_prototype)

[Anywhere USA]

On 6/23/2024 at 1:40 PM, H-G said:

You might wanna see this, though, I have a feeling I might've found an accurate location for Belleville Park:

 

 

Taken from this post on page #41. Look at the rectangle outlined in green, doesn't it look like Belleville Park? Here's a zoomed-in version, look at the same place and you'll see:

 

I dunno. That area is clearly urban in the next map after this, the black and white one showing what was finished. Also Belleville is the exact same size as that tree-Ed area up north, just rotate the triangle tip and it fits perfectly.

 

Also I find it funny that Toshiro being cut as he was left the LC Yakuza without a leader ever mentioned. A Waka Gashira is the Yakuza equivalent of an Underboss or Consigneiree. Kenji is the Waka Gashira and before him it was Kazuki. Who the hell is the Oyabun?

[Martin4004]

10 hours ago, Anywhere USA said:

I dunno. That area is clearly urban in the next map after this, the black and white one showing what was finished. Also Belleville is the exact same size as that tree-Ed area up north, just rotate the triangle tip and it fits perfectly.

 

Also I find it funny that Toshiro being cut as he was left the LC Yakuza without a leader ever mentioned. A Waka Gashira is the Yakuza equivalent of an Underboss or Consigneiree. Kenji is the Waka Gashira and before him it was Kazuki. Who the hell is the Oyabun?

Oyabun can be considered as an equivalent of the Don in the American mafia

[Anywhere USA]

57 minutes ago, Martin4004 said:

Oyabun can be considered as an equivalent of the Don in the American mafia

Doesn’t answer my question.

[Guest]

18 hours ago, Anywhere USA said:

I dunno. That area is clearly urban in the next map after this, the black and white one showing what was finished. Also Belleville is the exact same size as that tree-Ed area up north, just rotate the triangle tip and it fits perfectly.

 

Also I find it funny that Toshiro being cut as he was left the LC Yakuza without a leader ever mentioned. A Waka Gashira is the Yakuza equivalent of an Underboss or Consigneiree. Kenji is the Waka Gashira and before him it was Kazuki. Who the hell is the Oyabun?

Maybe the actual head of the family, Kazuki\Kenji\Asuka's father, is supposed to be still alive? Which might explain how the Yakuza are only weakened by the death of their leaders, but never wiped out in LCS and III.