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Grand Theft Auto III Pre-Release Discussion


GTAKid667
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Screenshot_20211008-195809_YouTube.jpgIt's quite interesting how this guy, Major Hale, got a complete artwork while Toshiro never got one

Plus, he was barely even mentioned in the document

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Speaking of Hale, in some renders you can actually see Phil with 2 arms. Maybe they used this design for Hale at one point before remaking the artwork?

 

kHnr5ac.jpg

 

His artwork does look different in terms of style, too. Phil seems more... pointy.

 

4057_gta3_artwork.jpg

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It kinda has the same style as Donald's and Toni's artworks

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Stephen Bliss confirmed that the Major character was one of the first few characters he drew in GTA3's "final" art style, it'll be interesting to see if he does an anniversary upload too.

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12 hours ago, zanesix said:

About time lol, hopefully they'll post a PDF or something with how long this took

Sadly, I don't have hope that they'll ever release a PDF given the comments made in the beginning of that video.
 

Quote

...we've decided to share the document's contents in the form of a video, specifically this video only.

 

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Visit my profile for a complete list!

 

 

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Yeah that was a greedy ass move on their part. Absolutely no reason for that video being nearly 2 hours long when I could have just watched a summary and skimmed it myself. Never getting that time back!

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universetwisters

Ngl I’m happy we got the final version considering the beta information as per the GDD. Beta III seems like a sequel to GTA 2 with all the dystopian corporate crap etc

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2 hours ago, zanesix said:

Yeah that was a greedy ass move on their part. Absolutely no reason for that video being nearly 2 hours long when I could have just watched a summary and skimmed it myself. Never getting that time back!

Tbh, I see this less as greedy and more as egotistical. Like hambone said, they made it clear that they won't ever share this book so we gotta cope with the fact the only thing we will see of this book is this video.

                                       https://images2.imgbox.com/a0/47/6BfB1ljy_o.png

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8 hours ago, Ash_735 said:

Stephen Bliss confirmed that the Major character was one of the first few characters he drew in GTA3's "final" art style, it'll be interesting to see if he does an anniversary upload too.

Then he must be as early as Mike Lips' artwork. Maybe Ian McQue did that initially. Interesting. There was also one concept art done for Mickey. I wonder if they made anything similar for it...

Another few things I noticed:

-The Corporate H.Q. building that was mentioned in the video is definitely the AMCO building that can be seen in final. It even has a car park. They probably just didn't know what corporation to use.

-The Portland Train Station(s) were said to have announcements. According to DimZet, the PS2 version of the game still has traces of this.

-Gun Shops are mentioned, yet we never see where they were located. And it couldn't be the location in final, as the backyard was shown to be blocked in an artwork. In fact the building itself looked pretty different.
-No mentions of Curtly anywhere. Safe to say he was a late addition for a minor character, like Marty Chonks (another fun fact, even during GameOn none of them appeared on the mission wall).

-The Bank shows a different perspective of the Bank render that Andrew Soosay showed on his flickr ages ago.

-Radio Station building is also shown on that Staunton map. According to their website, they still have buildings. Portland has Head Radio, Staunton has Rise and "KBDDF FM", and Shoreside has Game Radio.

-I seriously doubt Portland was going to have the Multi-storey Car Park. There is simply no room for it according to what we saw. Same for the Storm Drains.

-There are a bunch of music sound effects in the SFX. Perhaps these were meant to be used for the Bar and Club interiors that were mentioned in the video.

-Technically there is a Marina in final. It's that location from Last Requests. There is a wooden jetty there, perfect for taking boats.

-I have a strong feeling that the flowchart was made after Darkel was cut. It simply makes no sense that El Burro would have I Scream You Scream when all journalists were reporting that mission as Darkel's by late February 2001. Not to mention Rockstar themselves said that he was cut long before the game got released. In fact, his model wasn't even retouched to fit with the others. He still looks exactly like an alpha ped. That E3 paper also mentions him as a phone contact but it doesn't have Marty Chonks, which should've been there considering that the map during E3 was extremely close to what we have in final.

-You can see Alpha Claude's body in that part where they say he had a mole on his ass.

-No wonder the M16 is so fast in the final game. It's because it wasn't even a rifle, but a minigun.

-The Silenced Pistol from SA might've been the model used for GTA 3. After all, it's based on the same model

-The doc descriptions for the Portland cast (minus Mickey and Toni) were also featured by IGN here. Joey seems to have gotten a few changes since the doc.

 

Speaking of buildings. I think some of what was mentioned about Staunton buildings can still be seen in this pic, like the Court House. In fact you can probably make out the placements based on this. As you can see, Corporate HQ isnt here, but rather AMCO Building is. The Convenience Store must be that location featured in Shima.

 

ptavIml.jpg

Edited by Jinx.
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The video by GTASeriesVideos demonstrates that Grand Theft Auto IV is the Grand Theft Auto game they've always wanted to do.

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One small detail.

 

The GameOn expo had inverted mission orders for Pump Action Pimp and The Fuzz Ball, just like in the script. However, the second mission name doesn't match the one used in the doc (which is also used in the mission sources).

398578853_6fcc211234_z.jpg


Though in other expos, it's back to "Don't Smacka Ma Bitch Up". The last 2 missions still have switched order on the corner in the top.

k8smrQB.jpg

 

You can see that Joey's last 2 missions got edited after Dead Skunk in the Trunk. In the script, The Bank Job is refered to as Joey's 5th mission.

ZzyFy6a.jpeg


This leads to the conclusion that Dead Skunk in the Trunk was Toni's mission, despite the fact that only the flowchart has it (as Joey's).

unknown.png

unknown.png

Edited by Jinx.
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So, finally GTA Series Videos did the legendary video!

 

I'm not gonna lie, all the information about the game's design and all those ideas that got into the final game and those that didn't is pretty interesting. I would kill for read that whole document by myself lol. Also, I wonder how many of those documents are out there? Those that are older than December 2000 and those that got updated since. GSV showcased one dated as December 2000 exactly. I can't imagine how Vice City and/or San Andreas design document looks like, like a dream.

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More stuff, and shoutout to @H-G for this. Remember the contact enums?

https://gtamods.com/wiki/SCM_language_III/VC_definitions#CONTACT

 

0 CONTACT_LUIGI

1 CONTACT_JOEY

2 CONTACT_TONI

3 CONTACT_FRANKIE

4 CONTACT_ASUKA

5 CONTACT_KENJI

6 CONTACT_RAY

7 CONTACT_LOVE

8 CONTACT_MARIA

9 CONTACT_RAY_SUBURBAN

10 CONTACT_ASUKA_SUBURBAN

11 CONTACT_KENJI_SUBURBAN

12 CONTACT_8BALL

13 CONTACT_HISPANIC

14 CONTACT_YARDIE

15 CONTACT_HOODS

 

If you replace Love with Toshiro, you get basically the same route that was explained in the doc. It even has the Diablos still called as Hispanic, also like in the doc.

As for Claude wearing a suit during Luigi's Girls, I think this artwork makes more sense now.

gta3player01.png

Edited by Jinx.
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The video got released just in time!

When all are nostalgic about classic versions being removed to be replaced by definitive editions lol. And I'm at the same boat dudes.

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Another interesting detail.

 

Both in the flowchart and in final, in Take Out The Laundry, you have 3 vans to destroy, but in the code, there is a disabled fourth van. You were using Molotov Cocktails rather than grenades in the flowchart, however.

Edited by Jinx.
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Knowing all those details about the characters, the artworks suddenly make more sense now. Pretty interesting video, although I wish the document was available for everyone to see and enjoy, it's better than nothing I guess so I'm thankful for that. GTA III was a pretty ambitious project for Rockstar at the time and I like to see that GTA IV ended up having some of those scrapped features.

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17 hours ago, Jinx. said:

Another interesting detail.

 

Both in the flowchart and in final, in Take Out The Laundry, you have 3 vans to destroy, but in the code, there is a disabled fourth van. You were using Molotov Cocktails rather than grenades in the flowchart, however.

I think the weapon change in TOTL was most likely done due to difficulty reasons because it's typically much harder to destroy vehicles with molotovs compared to grenades; each thrown bottle doesn't really cause that much damage and you have to be very accurate to get it to hit the target right. Not to mention throwing it too close can result in Claude catching fire too.

 

OT: I really like the flowchart concepts of the last two story missions, "Exchange" and "Catalina's Escape". Did they actually plan to make Claude smart enough that he would try to confuse the Cartel goons by talking them into going against Catalina all the while running around her mansion collecting weapons? All those scrapped Claude dialogues discovered in the transcripts for the early "Give me Liberty" and "Chaperone" (then called "Pulp Friction") missions make sense now that when you look at R*'s attempt on making Claude more "human"-ish in SA by giving him a little background/backstory. Although I understand they couldn't get a talking protagonist to work considering how they had just started out with the 3D GTA games...

 

15 hours ago, Legomanarthur said:

GTA III was a pretty ambitious project for Rockstar at the time and I like to see that GTA IV ended up having some of those scrapped features.

Yeah, the basic, written concept of giving the player the ability to decide Catalina's fate at the end of the game (which in itself sounds absolutely lit AF for a 2000 game) and alternate endings was probably what gave birth to the decision system in IV.

Edited by H-G
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The Banshee (or rather should I say Rumbler) finally has a rear. It uses the CA License Plate and rear lights. Notice the Esperanto aswell. That's probably the best quality images of both cars.

 

image0.png

olhoBlP.jpg

 

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They said they planned on having GTA2/London characters return?

 

Perhaps Claude was originally meant to be GTA2 Claude?

Also I swear there was an image going around of an early GTA3 storyboard which really matches up with the initial intro..and shows a character VERY similar to the one on GTA:London's artwork. I wonder if he was planned for the story too

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4 hours ago, SaintJimmy said:

They said they planned on having GTA2/London characters return?

 

Perhaps Claude was originally meant to be GTA2 Claude?

Also I swear there was an image going around of an early GTA3 storyboard which really matches up with the initial intro..and shows a character VERY similar to the one on GTA:London's artwork. I wonder if he was planned for the story too

They weren't in the doc at all.

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Good to finally know most of what was in the document. Even if what I could've read in 30 minutes dragged out to 2 hours. I wish they would just release the f*cking thing as a pdf but whatever. 

The overwhelming feeling I get is that the game was incredibly early into its development and this manual was made to guide the team at Rockstar to complete the project with a vision. More of a wish list for what they (the Houser bros) hoped the final product would be more than anything else. The team had a massive list of things to implement, and by the time of the games release what they did accomplish was only a fraction of what they dreamed GTA3 could have been. Not knocking them at all, what the achieved in those few months was astonishing. They created the greatest video game of all time (in my opinion) up until that point. But I cant help but feel the developers would've been so disappointed with what they did present to the world in 2001, compared to what they had dreamed the game could be. Id give a kidney to see what III would look like with one more year of development.

WbZaxRP.png

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ZzyFy6a.jpg

 

Just noticed there is a sticker that is clumped with Joey's missions (but not specific to any) whose reward is a "Colombian Cutscene" and a machinegun (?). It's been there on all GameOn expo walls, even the one with the Pusher Run sticker. There is something similar about Luigi and the Hideout reward.

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20 hours ago, Jinx. said:

They weren't in the doc at all.

 

When the quote of 'popular characters from past games will return, even GTA:London' appeared, it had me wishfully thinking if maybe one of those Suits was this guy from GTA:London, or if one of the two drivers/protagonists were possibly Claude.

However I now realise that 'previous characters will reappear' info wasnt even from the GDD, it was from an old magazine quote - I mistakenly assumed it was exclusively from the document 😴 My mistake.
 


I think it's still a bit of fun to re-examine the early GTA3 storyboard image - that appears to have been created much earlier in the design process than the GDD - with the knowledge given to us in that video.

 

The GDD really gave me a "direct GTA2-sequel" vibe with all the talk of big corporations, a Power and Chemical plant being somewhere in the map, "The Masks", etc. 


I mean, reviewing that storyboard image with that information, you can kind of connect a few dots with the early, early storyboard we can see + the GDD video.

 

- the Overhead-cam transition to the car interior

- the 'suits' that the heistmen bring the money to

- the Mob boss (whose design definitely gives off Yakuza/Zaibatsu vibes IMO)

- this boss getting angry and then turning on the player (because the case was swapped by the conspicious looking Suit/Mask waiting at the warehouse on their arrival?)


I mean - this in itself reminds me of the GTA2 intro movie, but also seems to reflect a lot of the content/themes discussed in the GDD.

 

It also looks as though this introduction ends with the protagonist getting shot in the head over "a million dollars" (some of the only words I can read), with one of the Suits/Masks looking to be responsible for the switcheroo.
I could've sworn there was a theory that in GTA2, the main intro was potentially canon - that the movie Claude died, and had been 'resurrected', which is why he spawns back at the Church? Doesn't explain why he still gets to work for the gangs after doing them over, but who knows what weird potential cyberpunkish idea R*/DMA had in mind at the time.


Maybe we were to play a guy who got screwed over by the Suits/Masks, shot in the head, survived, and worked with the city gangs to get back at them? 
It links up with the original "story" premise mentioned in the GDD - "Claude has just escaped a successful bank heist when the Masks ambush them".
Or were we to play as his friend waiting in the car getting revenge for the death of his partner? Ahhhhh

Who knows - all I know is I'm incredibly glad they released that video, even if it didn't go into as much detail / show as many scans as I would've liked. It's cool to get some additional context for a lot of beta stuff uncovered over the last 20 years.

 

Edited by SaintJimmy
did not link to an image
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I wish the text was more readable, but the protagonist is only named "player" in that storyboard. He looks kind of Asian, but who knows. The only thing that I could read properly  - apart from "Rockstar Games presents a DMA design game" -  was the last panel, which says:

"Your business associates are not happy. They give you 24 hours to get them what you owe them — 4 (or 6?) million dollars."

 

So, apparently the money given to the mob boss was fake or something. That could've been tied to the Yakuza counterfeiting operation with Toshiro and the Old Japanese Gentleman.

 

If only we could get a higher resolution version of that very early storyboard, I was actually hoping the design document would include it.

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On 10/11/2021 at 5:28 PM, Jinx. said:

(image)

 

Just noticed there is a sticker that is clumped with Joey's missions (but not specific to any) whose reward is a "Colombian Cutscene" and a machinegun (?). It's been there on all GameOn expo walls, even the one with the Pusher Run sticker. There is something similar about Luigi and the Hideout reward.

Maybe this "Colombian Cutscene" was the one shown in the design document video where Claude takes a van to a warehouse, finds the guys expecting him dead, the Masks ambush him, Claude takes a machinegun from one of the Masks and shoots his way out through a corrugated wall to escape? Maybe it was a part of the early version of Joey's "Van Heist" mission considering how we take the target van to a warehouse in it too?

Edited by H-G
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37 minutes ago, H-G said:

Maybe this "Colombian Cutscene" was the one shown in the design document video where Claude takes a van to a warehouse, finds the guys expecting him dead, the Masks ambush him, Claude takes a machinegun from one of the Masks and shoots his way out through a corrugated wall to escape? Maybe it was a part of the early version of Joey's "Van Heist" mission considering how we take the target van to a warehouse in it too?

Doubt. If it was, it would be under that mission, but it's under his name.

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So doesn't this document pretty much tells us that all the Darkel stuff Rockstar told us on the 10th anniversary was bullsh*t? It not only seems that I Scream You Scream was always a El Buro/Hispanic mission, but it doesn't seem like Darkel had those "5 missions" they spoke about in the Q&A.

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