Beta Vice City

[Sam2150AD]

On 7/11/2021 at 4:22 PM, universetwisters said:

 

The european soundtracks for VC are weird af. They got a bunch of songs on Flash FM like I WANNA BE A COWBOY and HOLD THE LINE (which ironically enough made its way into San Andreas) that didn't even show up in Vice City

 

Generally when it comes to merchandise, especially merchandise that is made from a 3rd party they will be given the brief set out by the developer and will work to that brief and deliver the product usually with no other input from the developer.

It's a common occurrence not just in video games but in other media such as films and TV shows where if a change is made at a developer level, this notice of change will not filter through to the 3rd party manufacturers until the final product (game, film, show) is released or it's too late in the production run to change the merchandise before release. 

This is most likely the case has happened here, the same can be said for the games instruction manual (this was not printed by R*) as many parts of the manual simply don't make sense and implied there were more missions in a certain area etc than what happened in the final game. 

In the early 2000's R* was simply another developer and would have outsourced a lot of the game's production to 3rd parties. 

 

This is mostly seen in children's toys for feature films. Often you will see a particular character dressed in clothes or with some sort of accessory that they were never seen with or used in the final film. Observe this toy from Jurassic Park, the character of Dennis Nedry is clearly not in anyway associated with the character in the actual film.

 

Another theory is in case R* couldn't get the rights to use the original soundtrack in the game, it would be substituted for something else, the fact the songs appeared in the next game could just simply be an oversight by either party. 

When you research this topic, it's pretty interesting to see how much of the 'game' R* actually made and how much of the work was outsourced to various companies. 

[universetwisters]

Did anyone notice this before? Some unique Pony van with a livery, dunno if it was unique to Cannon Fodder (page 103 in the guidebook) or if they would’ve come like this ingame. Sadly I can’t make out what it’s supposed to say ;^;

 

https://discord.com/channels/361934480337928194/838944588546834448/879217357107646504

[Guest]

6 hours ago, universetwisters said:

Did anyone notice this before? Some unique Pony van with a livery, dunno if it was unique to Cannon Fodder (page 103 in the guidebook) or if they would’ve come like this ingame. Sadly I can’t make out what it’s supposed to say ;^;

 

https://discord.com/channels/361934480337928194/838944588546834448/879217357107646504

The black pony with the livery was actually already discovered and was made already! It was recreated by the same chad that goes by the name of 

Son Of Big Boss. The same guy who made the alpha vehicles for GTA3D mod before they were discovered in the vehicles.dff file.

 

This is his beta cars topic and the pony's ad had an electric equipments and home supplies ad

Edited August 23, 2021 by Leon Luther

[Son Of Big Boss]

20 hours ago, universetwisters said:

Did anyone notice this before? Some unique Pony van with a livery, dunno if it was unique to Cannon Fodder (page 103 in the guidebook) or if they would’ve come like this ingame. Sadly I can’t make out what it’s supposed to say ;^;

 

https://discord.com/channels/361934480337928194/838944588546834448/879217357107646504

Yeah I had noticed that in 2018

 

investigating more I found that the Hotrinb had a really similar decal, I attempted to remake the pony decal with this

 

I ended up finding that there is an unused Boxville decal which matched everything, and only needed color

 

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Son Of Big Boss

[Guest]

So the decal was recycled then

[gts.]

20 hours ago, Son Of Big Boss said:

...

You are knowledgeable as f*ck.

[Guest]

While I was messing with the VC GXTeditor, I came across this odd mission failure text from the mission Kills Mr.s Dawson.
There isn't a single point in that mission where you could trash the car when she isn't in it; because the car doesn't even spawn until you get to the maker.

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by Leon Luther
Changed some words and added missing ones

[Guest]

Vice City Beta Mod


Default game



Super LOD

it seems there was a different building over here

 

Another thing too I need someone to confirm, is any of this true?

https://tcrf.net/Development:Grand_Theft_Auto:_Vice_City

Edited December 2, 2021 by Leon Luther
Added the question about tcrf link

[Brooklynzsmac]

On 12/2/2021 at 3:10 PM, Leon Luther said:

Vice City Beta Mod


Default game



Super LOD

it seems there was a different building over here

 

Another thing too I need someone to confirm, is any of this true?

https://tcrf.net/Development:Grand_Theft_Auto:_Vice_City

Everything from that TCRF site is true, those are descriptions from leaked scm source shipped with DE versions of the game.

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, Brooklynzsmac said:

Everything from that TCRF site is true, those are descriptions from leaked scm source shipped with DE versions of the game.

Thanks for the confirmation!

 

[Son Of Big Boss]

When the uncompiled SCM in the DE was found, I was checking the VC Vigilante mission code, and among all the lines, I could understand that there were random gen coordinates, ped generators and car generators, basic mission behaviour pretty much, but there were some interesting things I noticed.

 

The code defines vehicles used for the chases in game, and each have some dev comment with the vehicle description or "ID"

 

Spoiler

IF copcar_level > 1
	GENERATE_RANDOM_INT_IN_RANGE 26 37 random_int
ELSE
	GENERATE_RANDOM_INT_IN_RANGE 0 37 random_int
ENDIF

//bikes
IF random_int = 0
	random_car_model = PCJ600  //sports bike		181
ENDIF
IF random_int = 1
	random_car_model = FAGGIO  //moped				182
ENDIF
IF random_int = 2
	random_car_model = FREEWAY //harley-style		183
ENDIF
IF random_int = 3
	random_car_model = SANCHEZ //scrambler bike		188
ENDIF

//2-door
IF random_int = 4
	random_car_model = COMET   //2-door sports		200
ENDIF
IF random_int = 5
	random_car_model = STINGER //2-door sports		122
ENDIF
IF random_int = 6
	random_car_model = INFERNUS//2-door sports		131
ENDIF
IF random_int = 7
	random_car_model = CHEETAH //2-door sports		135
ENDIF
IF random_int = 8
	random_car_model = BANSHEE //2-door sports		149
ENDIF
IF random_int = 9
	random_car_model = PHEONIX //2-door sports		197
ENDIF
IF random_int = 10
	random_car_model = BFINJECT//souped-up buggy	144
ENDIF
IF random_int = 11
	random_car_model = IDAHO   //2-door 70s			121
ENDIF
IF random_int = 12
	random_car_model = LINERUN //big rig		   	123
ENDIF
IF random_int = 13
	random_car_model = MANANA  //2-door pish		130
ENDIF
IF random_int = 14
	random_car_model = PONY    //light van			133
ENDIF
IF random_int = 15
	random_car_model = MULE    //heavy van			134
ENDIF
IF random_int = 16
	random_car_model = BOBCAT  //80s pick-up		142
ENDIF
IF random_int = 17
	random_car_model = ESPERANT//2-door 70s			139
ENDIF
IF random_int = 18
	random_car_model = MRWHOOP //ice-cream van		143
ENDIF
IF random_int = 19
	random_car_model = STALLION//small muscle		159
ENDIF
IF random_int = 20
	random_car_model = YANKEE  //heavy van			176
ENDIF
IF random_int = 21
	random_car_model = SABRE   //2-door 70s muscle	195
ENDIF
IF random_int = 22
	random_car_model = BURRITO //light van			202
ENDIF
IF random_int = 23
	random_car_model = WALTON  //50s pick-up		198
ENDIF
IF random_int = 24
	random_car_model = HERMES  //2-door 50s saloon	194
ENDIF
IF random_int = 25
	random_car_model = RUMPO   //light van			160
ENDIF

//4-door
IF random_int = 26
	random_car_model = SENTINEL//4-door saloon		125
ENDIF
IF random_int = 27
	random_car_model = MOONBEAM//people carrier		138
ENDIF
IF random_int = 28
	random_car_model = WASHING //4-door saloon		141
ENDIF
IF random_int = 29
	random_car_model = LANDSTAL//4-door offroad		120
ENDIF
IF random_int = 30
	random_car_model = PEREN   //60s station wagon	124
ENDIF
IF random_int = 31
	random_car_model = ADMIRAL  //4-door saloon		165
ENDIF
IF random_int = 32
	random_car_model = GLENDALE//4-door 60s saloon	186
ENDIF
IF random_int = 33
	random_car_model = OCEANIC //4-door 60s saloon	187
ENDIF
IF random_int = 34
	random_car_model = GREENWOO
ENDIF
IF random_int = 35
	random_car_model = REGINA  //4-door 70s saloon	199
ENDIF
IF random_int = 36
	random_car_model = SENTXS
ENDIF

REQUEST_MODEL random_car_model

 

 

On the bottom part of the copcar.sc code there is another section of dev comment defining again vehicles and IDs, but I want to point out some stuff, they had defined Deluxo, Stretch, Bus, Coach and Rancher, as possible car gen variation for the chases, by the other hand it doesn't have defined comments and ID for Sentinel XS and Greenwood, as seen on top, but hold on, here is the most interesting part, if you read the comment for Admiral in the code above it says //4-door saloon 165.

 

Guess what, in the old commented out section, it defines a vehicle called Ambassador as 4-door saloon 165, this actually confirms that the original name they had for the Admiral  was Ambassador.

 

Spoiler

////bikes
//PCJ600	//sports bike			181
//FAGGIO	//moped					182
//FREEWAY//harley-style			183
//SANCHEZ//scrambler bike			188
//
////2-door
//COMET	 //2-door sports		200
//DELUXO	 //2-door sports		201
//STINGER //2-door sports			122
//INFERNUS//2-door sports			131
//CHEETAH //2-door sports			135
//BANSHEE //2-door sports			149
//PHEONIX //2-door sports			197
//BFINJECT//souped-up buggy		144
//IDAHO   //2-door 70s			121
//LINERUN //big rig			 	123
//MANANA  //2-door pish			130
//PONY    //light van				133
//MULE 	 //heavy van			134
//BOBCAT  //80s pick-up			142
//ESPERANT//2-door 70s			139
//MRWHOOP //ice-cream van			143
//STALLION//small 2-door muscle	159
//YANKEE	 //heavy van			176
//SABRE	 //2-door 70s muscle	195
//BURRITO //light van				202
//WALTON  //50s pick-up			198
//
////4-door
//LANDSTAL//4-door offroad		120
//PEREN   //60s station wagon		124
//SENTINEL//4-door saloon			125
//STRETCH //limo					129
//MOONBEAM//people carrier		138
//WASHING //4-door saloon			141
//BUS	 //50s non-service bus		151
//COACH	 //greyhound coach		157
//RUMPO	 //light van			160
//AMBASS	 //4-door saloon		165
//GLENDALE//4-door 60s saloon		186
//OCEANIC //4-door 60s saloon		187
//HERMES	 //4-door 50s saloon	194
//REGINA	 //4-door 70s saloon	199
//RANCHER //hefty SUV				209

 

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Son Of Big Boss

[Benefactor69]

On 12/11/2021 at 7:18 AM, Son Of Big Boss said:

When the uncompiled SCM in the DE was found, I was checking the VC Vigilante mission code, and among all the lines, I could understand that there were random gen coordinates, ped generators and car generators, basic mission behaviour pretty much, but there were some interesting things I noticed.

 

The code defines vehicles used for the chases in game, and each have some dev comment with the vehicle description or "ID"

 

  Hide contents

IF copcar_level > 1
	GENERATE_RANDOM_INT_IN_RANGE 26 37 random_int
ELSE
	GENERATE_RANDOM_INT_IN_RANGE 0 37 random_int
ENDIF

//bikes
IF random_int = 0
	random_car_model = PCJ600  //sports bike		181
ENDIF
IF random_int = 1
	random_car_model = FAGGIO  //moped				182
ENDIF
IF random_int = 2
	random_car_model = FREEWAY //harley-style		183
ENDIF
IF random_int = 3
	random_car_model = SANCHEZ //scrambler bike		188
ENDIF

//2-door
IF random_int = 4
	random_car_model = COMET   //2-door sports		200
ENDIF
IF random_int = 5
	random_car_model = STINGER //2-door sports		122
ENDIF
IF random_int = 6
	random_car_model = INFERNUS//2-door sports		131
ENDIF
IF random_int = 7
	random_car_model = CHEETAH //2-door sports		135
ENDIF
IF random_int = 8
	random_car_model = BANSHEE //2-door sports		149
ENDIF
IF random_int = 9
	random_car_model = PHEONIX //2-door sports		197
ENDIF
IF random_int = 10
	random_car_model = BFINJECT//souped-up buggy	144
ENDIF
IF random_int = 11
	random_car_model = IDAHO   //2-door 70s			121
ENDIF
IF random_int = 12
	random_car_model = LINERUN //big rig		   	123
ENDIF
IF random_int = 13
	random_car_model = MANANA  //2-door pish		130
ENDIF
IF random_int = 14
	random_car_model = PONY    //light van			133
ENDIF
IF random_int = 15
	random_car_model = MULE    //heavy van			134
ENDIF
IF random_int = 16
	random_car_model = BOBCAT  //80s pick-up		142
ENDIF
IF random_int = 17
	random_car_model = ESPERANT//2-door 70s			139
ENDIF
IF random_int = 18
	random_car_model = MRWHOOP //ice-cream van		143
ENDIF
IF random_int = 19
	random_car_model = STALLION//small muscle		159
ENDIF
IF random_int = 20
	random_car_model = YANKEE  //heavy van			176
ENDIF
IF random_int = 21
	random_car_model = SABRE   //2-door 70s muscle	195
ENDIF
IF random_int = 22
	random_car_model = BURRITO //light van			202
ENDIF
IF random_int = 23
	random_car_model = WALTON  //50s pick-up		198
ENDIF
IF random_int = 24
	random_car_model = HERMES  //2-door 50s saloon	194
ENDIF
IF random_int = 25
	random_car_model = RUMPO   //light van			160
ENDIF

//4-door
IF random_int = 26
	random_car_model = SENTINEL//4-door saloon		125
ENDIF
IF random_int = 27
	random_car_model = MOONBEAM//people carrier		138
ENDIF
IF random_int = 28
	random_car_model = WASHING //4-door saloon		141
ENDIF
IF random_int = 29
	random_car_model = LANDSTAL//4-door offroad		120
ENDIF
IF random_int = 30
	random_car_model = PEREN   //60s station wagon	124
ENDIF
IF random_int = 31
	random_car_model = ADMIRAL  //4-door saloon		165
ENDIF
IF random_int = 32
	random_car_model = GLENDALE//4-door 60s saloon	186
ENDIF
IF random_int = 33
	random_car_model = OCEANIC //4-door 60s saloon	187
ENDIF
IF random_int = 34
	random_car_model = GREENWOO
ENDIF
IF random_int = 35
	random_car_model = REGINA  //4-door 70s saloon	199
ENDIF
IF random_int = 36
	random_car_model = SENTXS
ENDIF

REQUEST_MODEL random_car_model

 

 

On the bottom part of the copcar.sc code there is another section of dev comment defining again vehicles and IDs, but I want to point out some stuff, they had defined Deluxo, Stretch, Bus, Coach and Rancher, as possible car gen variation for the chases, by the other hand it doesn't have defined comments and ID for Sentinel XS and Greenwood, as seen on top, but hold on, here is the most interesting part, if you read the comment for Admiral in the code above it says //4-door saloon 165.

 

Guess what, in the old commented out section, it defines a vehicle called Ambassador as 4-door saloon 165, this actually confirms that the original name they had for the Admiral  was Ambassador.

 

  Hide contents

////bikes
//PCJ600	//sports bike			181
//FAGGIO	//moped					182
//FREEWAY//harley-style			183
//SANCHEZ//scrambler bike			188
//
////2-door
//COMET	 //2-door sports		200
//DELUXO	 //2-door sports		201
//STINGER //2-door sports			122
//INFERNUS//2-door sports			131
//CHEETAH //2-door sports			135
//BANSHEE //2-door sports			149
//PHEONIX //2-door sports			197
//BFINJECT//souped-up buggy		144
//IDAHO   //2-door 70s			121
//LINERUN //big rig			 	123
//MANANA  //2-door pish			130
//PONY    //light van				133
//MULE 	 //heavy van			134
//BOBCAT  //80s pick-up			142
//ESPERANT//2-door 70s			139
//MRWHOOP //ice-cream van			143
//STALLION//small 2-door muscle	159
//YANKEE	 //heavy van			176
//SABRE	 //2-door 70s muscle	195
//BURRITO //light van				202
//WALTON  //50s pick-up			198
//
////4-door
//LANDSTAL//4-door offroad		120
//PEREN   //60s station wagon		124
//SENTINEL//4-door saloon			125
//STRETCH //limo					129
//MOONBEAM//people carrier		138
//WASHING //4-door saloon			141
//BUS	 //50s non-service bus		151
//COACH	 //greyhound coach		157
//RUMPO	 //light van			160
//AMBASS	 //4-door saloon		165
//GLENDALE//4-door 60s saloon		186
//OCEANIC //4-door 60s saloon		187
//HERMES	 //4-door 50s saloon	194
//REGINA	 //4-door 70s saloon	199
//RANCHER //hefty SUV				209

 

 

 

 

That list also refers to the Hermes as a "4-door 50s saloon" which it isn't:

I wonder if that was a typo or if the design of the Hermes was significantly altered at some point?

[Area 69]

On 12/13/2021 at 3:49 AM, Benefactor69 said:

That list also refers to the Hermes as a "4-door 50s saloon" which it isn't:

I wonder if that was a typo or if the design of the Hermes was significantly altered at some point?

Maybe either the Glendale or the Oceanic was supposed to be named Hermes then they decided to give it's name to the current vehicle.

 

The name itself is based on a ancient greek god, which was known also for his swiftness. Which, probably, Rockstar thought it would fit more for a 40's coupe than a slow saloon car from the 50's.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Area 69

[VankeX]

This BETA looks like original, except Tommy's and Sonny's outfit, and Ken looks like a fish.

[Vishnuka]

 

Anyone Noticed!? LooK at 0.29 - 0.31 Malibu Club's stairs Is Shining....

[YufflesGaming]

I translated ok it says about the beta building right?

Alright.

 

Spoiler

Credits:

Rafael Vilela.

 

Website Link.

 

I was walking with my Infernus , until I see a building before reaching the other island. See it highlighted in the image below: When passing the island, the LOD disappears and the building changed: The building I saw was the one in the image below, known as:

 

 

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_hhyU6wZCanI/SLbhDoz_uPI/AAAAAAAAA0E/B6j-V9P-87w/s400/1.JPG

 

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/_hhyU6wZCanI/SLbgYfQiHkI/AAAAAAAAAzs/YXW6vvr90YM/s400/2.JPG

 

Have an entrance to the "underworld" of the game.

Have interior and that is used in a quest of the game.

Having windows that form the design of a p*nis at night.

 

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_hhyU6wZCanI/SLbgYrHrhLI/AAAAAAAAAz0/f5FbtQGdAs8/s400/3.JPG

 

The building that was shown in the first image, was a building from the BETA version , which can be seen more closely using Camera Hack or a map editor ( meD , for example).

 

In meD , I took a print of the building and also show a small comparison with the BETA version and the final version :

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_hhyU6wZCanI/SLbgY62Z8GI/AAAAAAAAAz8/Ct4CrLuhbG0/s400/4.jpg

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by YufflesGaming

[jaljax]

I heard something along the lines many years ago that the song More Than This by Roxy Music was the original theme song for the game . Is this confirmed at all or is it just speculation?

[jaydeedilla]

On 5/5/2022 at 4:47 AM, jaljax said:

I heard something along the lines many years ago that the song More Than This by Roxy Music was the original theme song for the game . Is this confirmed at all or is it just speculation?

https://web.archive.org/web/20160514082010/http://www.cgagamers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=35927

"Yesterday evening Jeff Williams, former Rockstar employee and current blogger, wrote up quite an interesting post about his time at both Take-Two and Rockstar."

"Again because the game was so big, the marketing department was pressed into play testing the game. So we got to play it pretty early, and I don't know if it's because we were considered special or what, but unlike the regular testers, we got to play it individually in our own room at the office on an HDTV. "

"More Than This" by Roxy Music was also the theme song to the game at that time, so I still think of the opening to the game whenever I hear that song come on." 

[jaljax]

On 5/8/2022 at 7:46 AM, jaydeedilla said:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160514082010/http://www.cgagamers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=35927

"Yesterday evening Jeff Williams, former Rockstar employee and current blogger, wrote up quite an interesting post about his time at both Take-Two and Rockstar."

"Again because the game was so big, the marketing department was pressed into play testing the game. So we got to play it pretty early, and I don't know if it's because we were considered special or what, but unlike the regular testers, we got to play it individually in our own room at the office on an HDTV. "

"More Than This" by Roxy Music was also the theme song to the game at that time, so I still think of the opening to the game whenever I hear that song come on." 

Thank you. I figured this was true because I seen this article years ago , but couldn't find it for a long time 

[universetwisters]

On 12/12/2021 at 9:49 PM, Benefactor69 said:

That list also refers to the Hermes as a "4-door 50s saloon" which it isn't:

I wonder if that was a typo or if the design of the Hermes was significantly altered at some point?

Sorry for being late to the topic but the same goes for the Walton; it’s listed as a pickup when it’s a flatbed with stakes. 
 

But conversely, would Europeans know what a pickup is when they aren’t that common over there compared to America? I was gonna say “maybe they thought the Hermes looked more like a 40s than a 50s car” so I’d assume that the fellas at rockstar aren’t really big car nerds but then I saw the “4 DOOR SEDAN” and I’m like “shoot” and suddenly AREA 69’s theory makes sense

[Guest]

Removed

Edited July 6, 2022 by Big Mac Toni

[Brooklynzsmac]

3 hours ago, Big Mac Toni said:

https://tcrf.net/Grand_Theft_Auto:_Vice_City/Unused_Models
did anybody try to use different texture templates on that unused Kentpaul.dff model and see if they fit?

And since he doesn't have a detailed face this was probably a gameplay model? tho I don't remember a single time where he appeared outside of cutscenes. Could this be his gameplay model back when his model wasn't finalised then it was scrapped and they just stuck with him being a cutscene-only character?
idk maybe 

 

this one for those who have forgotten (final textures applied that's why it's bad)

It's both ingame and cutscene model, they had separate cutscene heads at that time, kinda like it was in III

[Guest]

(Removed/Deleted)

[Sergiu]

Special thanks to @Yucark for this amazing discovery!!!

 

Tommy's beta walking and jog anims were discovered in unused GTA SA anim sets.

(wuzi_walk) - SA

https://imgur.com/vKnsHhm

(run_fatold) - VC

https://imgur.com/0q0J6Ao

 

Just require some hand bone adjustments since those seemed to have been tweaked for SA for the walk.

As for the carjack anims, the sedan one can be found in LCS and the sports cars one can be found in GTA3.

 

We're still looking for the running with a chainsaw animation and perhaps the sports car driving animation (with the elbow leaning on the door frame) but if they're not found then they'll have to be recreated eventually.

Extra fact is that the beta animations set did not have a idle pose for heavy weapons, which is why final heavy weapon idle animations make the heavy weapons clip through the beta player's chest, since they were created with the final proportions in mind.

 

Come join us find more beta related information and files over on our Discord server. ((shameless plug))

Edited July 18, 2022 by Sergiu

[gts.]

Lol. Still undiscovered stuff 20 years later? That's amazing, looks weird though. I'm not amazed why animations were changed for final game.

[Sergiu]

4 hours ago, gts. said:

Lol. Still undiscovered stuff 20 years later? That's amazing, looks weird though. I'm not amazed why animations were changed for final game.

I recorded them in-game for your viewing pleasure!

 

 

[jaydeedilla]

Nothing particularly huge, but it seems Crowded House was supposed to make an appearance on Emotion 98.3.

Spoiler

Whilst no song name is given, it's obvious to me Don't Dream It's Over would have been the song they picked. First off, the song Rockstar would've picked had to have been a track off of their 1986 debut LP, and Don't Dream It's Over is the biggest track on that record by a mile, and generally is regarded as one of the most iconic soft ballads of the 80s. 

 

Interestingly, it wouldn't be the last time Rockstar would try and license Crowded House, as another track from the band was cut from GTA V pretty close to release. (That song being It's Only Natural off their 1991 Woodface LP)

Edited July 20, 2022 by jaydeedilla

[MR GARFIELD]

if you realize in the image the bridge is very different and most importantly, the mansion did not exist in some beta version

(an idiot told me that mexicans couldn't find things about the beta of gta vc but I don't think anyone saw this before, or so I want to believe

[Guest]

removed

Edited October 23, 2023 by BigMacToni

[Guest]

removed

Edited October 23, 2023 by BigMacToni