Middle Eastern Conflict [General]

[Eutyphro]

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/world/middle-east/article32206167.html

Syrian rebels: Turkey tipped al Qaida group to U.S.-trained fighters

http://www.todayszaman.com/diplomacy_chomsky-syrian-al-nusra-main-recipient-of-turkish-aid_404345.html

Chomsky: Syrian al-Nusra main recipient of Turkish aid

Edited November 16, 2015 by Eutyphro

[sivispacem]

Neither of those are remotely surprising, sadly. The Turkish government is pretty much using al-Nursa and other Islamist elements in Iraq and Syria as a wedge to drive between the Syrian and Iraqi Kurdistan regions and PKK-sympathetic groups in Southern Turkey.

[Dingdongs]

Neither of those are remotely surprising, sadly. The Turkish government is pretty much using al-Nursa and other Islamist elements in Iraq and Syria as a wedge to drive between the Syrian and Iraqi Kurdistan regions and PKK-sympathetic groups in Southern Turkey.

Jabhat al-Nusra is rolling in dough and support from everybody.... The Turks, the Emiratis, the Qataris especially. And lest we forget the Saudis.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Irviding

[GTA36362355]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np1UKZI1L9I

 

Russia is destroying the so-called pipeline on wheels running oil from syria to iraq.

 

 

 

The spokesman also said that the Russian military has begun developing proposals for joint military action with the French Navy against the terrorists in accordance with an order by President Vladimir Putin.

 

This joint work will begin after the arrival of aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle to the Syrian shores,Kartapolov explained.

 

Edited November 19, 2015 by Mister Kay

[Doc Rikowski]

Interesting analysis about the conflict in Syria by former French general, who doesn't go soft on French politicians...

 

http://www.geopolitique-geostrategie.fr/premier-bilan-militaire-et-geopolitique-de-lintervention-russe-en-syrie-70663

[Spaghetti Cat]

France has an Aircraft Carrier?!? Where the hell has it been for the past decade?

 

I say we just lease France 20 or so of our B-52's (with aircrews) for the time being, since we're not really using them. Throw in the bombs free of charge.

 

 

 

I can believe, but it's sad to repeat how ineffective our lousy President has been on this issue. Hang in there Europe, just over a year to go.

 

 

[GTA36362355]

So, a russian Su-24 jet was shot down over Syria by Turkey's F-16 earlier today.

 

 

 

Turkey said it was rightfully acting to defend its sovereignty as the Russian Su-24 had violated its airspace and hadnt responded to warnings.

 

Moscow has denied Turkeys claims of defence, saying its plane was downed in Syrian airspace, where Russia is conducting an air operation against Islamic State and other terrorists.

 

 

Probably an hour ago, a video of Syrian rebels (the moderate opposition) firing at a Russian-made helicopter on the ground was posted on a YouTube channel associated with the FSAs 1st Coastal Brigade. The helicopter is said to have been on a search mission for the pilots of the Su-24 jet downed by Turkey in Syria.

 

Rebels of 1st Coatal Div say Russ helo landed with mechanical fault before they targeted with Tow missile around 6km from crash site.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfU3dHIwVxg

 

The dead pilot was surrounded by syrian rebels.

2 videos (graphic):

 

 

Edited November 24, 2015 by Mister Kay

[Doc Rikowski]

Failure of the drone war told by the actual executors of it.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/18/obama-drone-war-isis-recruitment-tool-air-force-whistleblowers

[Stephan90]

 

Edited November 28, 2015 by Stephan90

[El Dildo]

it's really pretty reasonable, when you think about it.

I mean, this kind of graffitti is not hard to find in certain parts of the Arab world...

 

[Abel.]

it's really pretty reasonable, when you think about it.

I mean, this kind of graffitti is not hard to find in certain parts of the Arab world...

 

 

 

I'd wager you'll find more of it in South East Asia.

[Spaghetti Cat]

Guy must have been huffing his own paint, funny looking drone tbh.

[Stephan90]

Guy must have been huffing his own paint, funny looking drone tbh.

 

who cares, they don't see the death coming because the drones fly so high over their heads. pretty cowardly

Edited December 1, 2015 by Stephan90

[Dingdongs]

it's really pretty reasonable, when you think about it.

I mean, this kind of graffitti is not hard to find in certain parts of the Arab world...

 

Tell them to focus their anger on their own governments which actively permit and provide targeting information for US UAVs in the MENA region and in Pakistan/Afghanistan.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Irviding

[El Dildo]

Tell them to focus their anger on their own governments which actively permit and provide targeting information for US UAVs in the MENA region and in Pakistan/Afghanistan.

you're joking right?

this technicality is totally beside the point. the US shouldn't even be involved in this region of the world, let alone reigning down bombs with total impunity. the US might receive intel from local governments but the lionshare of the data is provided by our own satellites and UAVs. the only reason local governments cooperate with the US in intel sharing is because they don't have a choice.

 

secondly, you're talking about a massive propaganda campaign which is a losing battle before it even begins. you want to educate the countless tribal villagers across the isolated mountainous territories of Afghanistan on the finer points of global terrorism geopolitics?? I'm pretty sure the quicker remedy would be for the US to simply get the f/ck out of there and stop playing god with those peoples lives...

 

whether we hit the "right" target or accidentally kill a group of innocent civilians driving to market is moot at this rate. all of those bombs say MADE IN THE USA on the side. all of those kids know who is resonposible for blowing up their family members and they don't forget. you wanna' know where Islamic extremism gets fuel for the fire? it's really not that complicated.

[Dingdongs]

 

Tell them to focus their anger on their own governments which actively permit and provide targeting information for US UAVs in the MENA region and in Pakistan/Afghanistan.

you're joking right?

this technicality is totally beside the point. the US shouldn't even be involved in this region of the world, let alone reigning down bombs with total impunity. the US might receive intel from local governments but the lionshare of the data is provided by our own satellites and UAVs. the only reason local governments cooperate with the US in intel sharing is because they don't have a choice.

 

secondly, you're talking about a massive propaganda campaign which is a losing battle before it even begins. you want to educate the countless tribal villagers across the isolated mountainous territories of Afghanistan on the finer points of global terrorism geopolitics?? I'm pretty sure the quicker remedy would be for the US to simply get the f/ck out of there and stop playing god with those peoples lives...

 

whether we hit the "right" target or accidentally kill a group of innocent civilians driving to market is moot at this rate. all of those bombs say MADE IN THE USA on the side. all of those kids know who is resonposible for blowing up their family members and they don't forget. you wanna' know where Islamic extremism gets fuel for the fire? it's really not that complicated.

 

If you seriously think that the drone program is what causes radicalization to initially brew, you´re severely mistaken. The drone program is not radicalizing people who would otherwise be great friends to America. Ask the Wahhabis why people in the region are radicalized from the beginning, not the American drone program.

 

And that just isn't true. Please do me a favor and do some research on the drone programs in all of these countries. The countries actively provide intel and cooperate, just not openly. The Pakistanis are the most guilty of all and are the most actively involved with the US in this (and also the most vocal in "opposition" to it). There's mounds upon mounds of evidence on that.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Irviding

[Abel.]

El_D: Naturally every civilian casualty is a tragedy, but what's the alternative? Wider counter-insurgency campaigns involving US troops? Allowing Salafist cells to operate unimpeded in SE Asia and the Arabian peninsula, creating more threats for us and destabilising nations? Whilst it's definitely true that too much action in this kind of war can be at detriment to your objective/turn locals against you, sitting on your hands and doing nothing just won't cut it.

 

 

You do raise a good point regarding "winning the war, not just the battle". As Irv rightly says, Pakistan's government wants the drone program (though it's loath to admit it), but that's of little import to some rural goat herder who knows nothing of Nawaz Sharif. Pakistan (just using this as an example) isn't a failed state, but it's hardly thriving, either. Yemen is a failed state at this stage. Just thinking out loud here, but what kind of impact would a Marshal Plan level of investment have on these places? On the one hand I don't think they'd do any good whilst these areas are still hotbeds of extremism, but on the other hand as long as poverty remains rampant it's not difficult to lure disenfranchised young men into terrorist groups with the promise of a better wage here and bounty in the afterlife. Of course it would be naive to think that investment is going to immediately alleviate poverty, but it's depressing to see virtually nothing being done. Maybe I'm being overly sentimental about Yemen, I don't know.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Failure

[El Dildo]

If you seriously think that the drone program is what causes radicalization to initially brew, you´re severely mistaken.

drone programs being the cause of terrorism?

that's literally not what I said at all.

 

the drone program represents extremely visible fuel for the fire. I didn't say it was the only thing driving terror....

 

 

 

Please do me a favor and do some research on the drone programs in all of these countries. The countries actively provide intel and cooperate, just not openly.

uhh hello?

I never argued that point. what I said is that those countries really don't have much a choice given the United States initiative in this whole invasion.

 

 

El_D: Naturally every civilian casualty is a tragedy, but what's the alternative?

the alternative is not f/cking being there.

why is it so difficult to wrap our heads around? we don't have to be there. we never had to invade. the countries in which we are fighting had nothing to do with 9/11 which is - for all intents and purposes - the only reason we're having this conversation to begin with.

 

the Middle East situation, by every metric, is much worse thanks to our intervention than it was just prior. it's a clusterf/ck and throwing more troops, money, or bombs at will solve absolutely nothing.

 

they don't want us to be over there meddling in their affairs.

why are we over there? what are we accomplishing? nothing. wait I take that back, we're doing a great service for this nation's funeral homes and prosthetic limb industry. they're f/cking booming...

[Abel.]

But Irv was talking more about SE Asia, not the Middle East. Afghanistan was invaded on the grounds that it had become a haven for Al Qaeda and Bin Laden himself, who definitely had something to do with 9/11 and were openly interested in furthering their campaign against the West.

 

 

As for Iraq, yes, things there were made worst by our intervention. However, we're on about the drone programs which have seen far more activity in other parts of the world than Iraq (namely SE Asia and the Arabian peninsula). I'm also interested in your alternative. This idea that we should just sit back and do nothing is laughable to me. We made very real strategic mistakes in Iraq and I like to think we should atone for them. Beyond that we are seeing profound, new threats emerging from Iraq and Syria which, for the sake of our security if nothing else, need to be dealt with.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Failure

[El Dildo]

I simply fail to see how the drone program - wherever it is used - makes us any safer, in the end. in the long run it results in more harm than good. it breeds more negativity for the US as if we don't have enough already.

Edited December 1, 2015 by El Diablo

[Stephan90]

Why is Obama making pictures with Bush? Why don't Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Tenet and others face a trial in the United States similar to the Nuremberg trials? Where is the American society that should demand those trials to serve justice?

 

 

Bush wanted this war against Iraq already shortly after 9 11 without having any prove of connections between Sadam and Al Queda. There is a good speech from former CIA analyst Raymond MvGovern on how the Bush government wanted this war of aggression by all means and even completely ignored the CIA analysts opinion.

 

 

 

No other country in the world thinks it has the right to do drone warfare in other countries regardless if they are ok with it or not. No other country has a detention camp like Guantanamo where it imprisons people from other countries without a trial. Of course on Cuba so that everything stays as much secret as possible.

 

The only thing that is worse than these things is that there is no change under Obama and all these criminal things are accepted.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Stephan90

[Abel.]

I simply fail to see how the drone program - wherever it is used - makes us any safer, in the end. in the long run it results in more harm than good. it breeds more negativity for the US as if we don't have enough already.

 

America is in a Catch-22 situation. If it does nothing then places like Yemen get forgotten about and spiral further into chaos, if it intervenes then it needs to be extremely careful lest it become hated in the eyes of the local populace and the nations of the world. The drone program enables the US to take out members of terror cells all over the world without committing US troops (beyond perhaps some highly-trained special forces operatives anyway). The only other options are operations involving thousands of US troops across the world or air strikes, both of which would be far worse than the drone program in terms of public opinion and civilian casualties. As I said earlier, if you allow these groups to act with impunity, you're going to allow greater threats to our security and the stability of developing countries to grow. The war on terror is real. It's dirty, costly and embedded in morally grey territory, but is real and must be waged decisively.

 

On the other hand, I do get where you're coming from. What's the endgame here? Can we ever declare "victory" over Islamic extremism when its supporters range from disgruntled ex-farmers to obscenely wealthy noble families across the Arab world? To what extent is this phenomenon driven by religion, ethnic and sectarian divisions and state actors?

 

The answers aren't there yet. The best we can hope for right now is containment of Islamic extremism and safety for our citizens.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Failure

[Eutyphro]

Like Yemen can spiral any further into chaos... The drone program seems to be causing much more terrorism than it is reducing it.

[Abel.]

I've said several times that Yemen is in need of investment, aid and greater attention from the international community.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Failure

[Doc Rikowski]

We can talk about the nuances as much as you want but the drone war remains a clear case of crime against humanity or war crime at its best.

The rest is just sterile conversation among people sitting safely behind a screen and lucky enough to not be on the side of the ones that get criminally and daily bombed by a bunch of drugged up air force geeks with a console that get away with murder just because the world is a f*cked up place where legality and moral do not apply if you're the strongest bully in the courtyard.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Doc Rikowski

[Stephan90]

the world is a f*cked up place where legality and moral do not apply if you're the strongest bully in the courtyard.

 

The perfect summary

 

It is a scandal that Bush and his fellow minions haven't faced a trial and that there are probably still many Republican voters who have a good opinion about him. He is a f*cking war criminal and nothing less.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Stephan90

[Eutyphro]

I've said several times that Yemen is in need of investment, aid and greater attention from the international community.

How is that going to fix the marginalized Houthis from being murdered by the Sunni ruling class and specifically by our great friend Saudi-Arabia? Nobody in the international community cares that much about Yemen. It's not like they have that much oil there. They are not allowed to stray ideologically for strategical reasons though. So we support Sunni's murdering them, and you can see that in the way the Houthis are talked about in Western news.

[GTA36362355]

The Russian defense ministry is now providing satellite imagery based evidence of vast illegal oil trade (about $3 million per day) by Islamic State via live oil pipelines consisting of thousands of oil trucks.

 

Turkey has been portrayed as the main destination.

 

 

Today, we are presenting only some of the facts that confirm that a whole team of bandits and Turkish elites stealing oil from their neighbors is operating in the region.

After two months of Russian airstrikes their income is now around $1.5m/day

 

 

Mowaffak al-Rubaie, leader of the State of Law Coalition party in the Iraqi parliament said, "I have personally contacted US representatives asking them to target IS trucks transporting Iraqi and Syrian oil to Turkey, only to be told that they were civilian targets so they [the US] could not attack them."

These are the claimed three main oil smuggling routes to Turkey.

 

 

According to our data, the top political leadership of the country - President Erdogan and his family is involved in this criminal business.

Its hard not to notice the thousands of trucks used by terrorists for oil smuggling.

 

However, we see no strikes on those convoys by the coalition - only a tripling in the number of strategic UAVs has been observed.

[Stephan90]

Ask yourself why the most advanced airforce in the World (United States) has not ended oil trade of ISIS. Oil which is transported by large trucks through open terrain.

 

It would be a much better idea to stop ISIS oil trade as their main source of income. Instead of bombing cities and hope that one would hit some terrorists. Oil trucks are easier targets than humans.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Stephan90

[GTA36362355]

 

 

YES WE CAN! lol

Edited December 2, 2015 by Mister Kay