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Was creating ps2 GTA's easier than GTA 4 and 5?


vrsick

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GTA 3, Vice City, and San Andreas came out within 3 years of each other (gta 3 was october 200, san andreas october 2004). I would assume production time would sorta evolve alongside all the tech stuff so it wouldn't be considered harder now than it would be then. Obviously 4 and 5 are waaay bigger games than the ps2 releases but I'm confused to why it took nearly 5 years to make gta 5 as I read it started being developed almost right after the launch of gta 4. Does DLC make a difference?

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the reason games take longer to make now is the different quality, everything needs to be more detailed, so it takes longer to create.

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PowerKracker

Yes. As games get more advanced, making them takes more resources and manpower. It increases quadratically, back in more primitive eras like the 80s and 90s games took only a handful of people to make - it was all simpler.

 

However, the PS2 GTAs were probably still a challenge to develop. San Andreas still holds the title of the best GTA in the eyes of many, and it was all on PS2 hardware - the weakest of the 6th generation. What they did with it was so impressive, especially looking back at it today.

Edited by AlfredNTheFettuc
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Problemses?

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I'd assume so. RAGE seems to be a nightmare in terms of friendliness towards developers.

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If you take in account the technical challenges faced in the PS2 era (come on, GTA San Andreas pushed the PS2 to its absolute limits), not to mention all the innovation they brought into table, I think they were "harder" to develop as a whole product. GTAIV and GTAV took longer, but weren't exactly harder, in my opinion. They had to polish up what they already had, bring in all the fancy new graphics and stuff... But the hard part, which was to create and define a new game genre (you know, the 3D-vehicle-theft-shooting-free-roam kind of thing that GTA is) and to establish the franchise's name as THE game for all your sandbox needs, I think that made it harder. Just my two cents :p

 

@Xerukal: I don't know, I think that it was a great challenge to make RAGE work with its first big games (GTAIV and Midnight Club LA), but after RDR and Max Payne 3, it was greatly polished up (MP3 runs like heaven on both PC and consoles, and looks beautiful) and was able to support to the massive game that GTAV is. I think that all the rough edges on the engine and the development process were rounded up.

Edited by VinnyGouveia
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Is it easier to draw a Looney Toons character or a detailed portrait ?

 

Anyway, Rockstar has stated that the map is the first thing they make in GTA games and that most development time is spent feature building not map making.

Edited by J-B
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Not really. Ofcourse they will never beat Vice City's 9 month development period but they might get near a 2 year period. More content doesn't mean more time. If you develop a bigger map than the previous game and you want it to take the same time, just hire more people to model it for you. It's not like the whole thing needs to get modeled by 1 guy.

 

We'll get better Rockstar games and faster the more time they spend with RAGE.

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@Xerukal: I don't know, I think that it was a great challenge to make RAGE work with its first big games (GTAIV and Midnight Club LA), but after RDR and Max Payne 3, it was greatly polished up (MP3 runs like heaven on both PC and consoles, and looks beautiful) and was able to support to the massive game that GTAV is. I think that all the rough edges on the engine and the development process were rounded up.

Yeah, but no company should have difficulties such as Maxscript Errors and the likes with their own engine, things like RenderWare at least, that was fine - they had it from the start, they had all development tools and it was good.

 

But yes, it probably was easier creating the 3D era GTA's than it is the HD era ones, considering the map and such was much smaller, as they couldn't make it very big and detailed, IV and V however, they're now huge maps, as well as having to add little tiny details everywhere to make it feel more immersive. Plus (again) the RAGE engine seems a lot harder to work with than the RenderWare engine was, so the development process is slowed down a bit.

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@Xerukal: I don't know, I think that it was a great challenge to make RAGE work with its first big games (GTAIV and Midnight Club LA), but after RDR and Max Payne 3, it was greatly polished up (MP3 runs like heaven on both PC and consoles, and looks beautiful) and was able to support to the massive game that GTAV is. I think that all the rough edges on the engine and the development process were rounded up.

Oh, I'm not saying the engine doesn't perform great. It's amazing how far it has come. But actually working with it as a developer, many tend to say that it is not friendly and is a pain to work with. I'm obviously not into game development or working with engines, but there have been many reviews (by employees) that state the engine is still just a huge pain to work with. It might look like it works great to us, but who knows how much trouble it gives the devs behind the scenes. How much sh*t they go through to get it to look and perform the way it does with Max Payne 3 and GTA V.

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@Xerukal: I think I didn't say it clear: I think it was a greater pain to work with it in GTAIV's era (not knowing exactly the engine's limitation, not having fully documented (?) the engine, not optimizing it enough for platforms and such), and that the only way to iron all these things out was by taking this path.

@Kalvin: I agree with you, and I think I can blame it on how old the engine is. I'm a software developer and, to be honest, I'm taking into account what happens here: new frameworks or projects are a pain in the ass to work due to unknown bugs and glitches, bad documentation and such. Again, these things are only ironed out with time.

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Of course, in the next 20 years, games will take 6 to 10 years to develop, depends on how much time the developer wants to spend time on the game, and how detailed and good they want it to be. For GTA, it will take 10 years to develop a main game to the series. If GTA V took 5 years, imagine how much time a GTA X or GTA 20 will take (If GTA even will last that long).

 

 

And because gaming technology has gone further, it will take more time, because the developers need to take full advantage of the hardware that the gaming console gives. Back in 2001, the developers thought that making GTA III took a pain in the ass time, but now it seems it didn't take as much pain in the ass to make GTA III than making GTA V.

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@Xerukal: I think I didn't say it clear: I think it was a greater pain to work with it in GTAIV's era (not knowing exactly the engine's limitation, not having fully documented (?) the engine, not optimizing it enough for platforms and such), and that the only way to iron all these things out was by taking this path.

RAGE has definitely come a long way, and for better or for worse, It's the best engine that's out there for GTA right now.

 

I just wish more people would realize that Max Payne 3 on PC actually happened and was successful, instead of ignoring its existence and focusing on IV's PC version. Y'know, the one that happened almost 6 f*cking years ago.

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Of course, in the next 20 years, games will take 6 to 10 years to develop, depends on how much time the developer wants to spend time on the game, and how detailed and good they want it to be. For GTA, it will take 10 years to develop a main game to the series. If GTA V took 5 years, imagine how much time a GTA X or GTA 20 will take (If GTA even will last that long).

 

 

And because gaming technology has gone further, it will take more time, because the developers need to take full advantage of the hardware that the gaming console gives. Back in 2001, the developers thought that making GTA III took a pain in the ass time, but now it seems it didn't take as much pain in the ass to make GTA III than making GTA V.

 

This doesn't mean the tools don't evolve either.

^If Rockstar Games would actually take the time and develop some proper tools like this instead of using Max Scripts or whatever other sh*tty technique they are using, they would pump up games once per year.

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@Xerukal: I think I didn't say it clear: I think it was a greater pain to work with it in GTAIV's era (not knowing exactly the engine's limitation, not having fully documented (?) the engine, not optimizing it enough for platforms and such), and that the only way to iron all these things out was by taking this path.

RAGE has definitely come a long way, and for better or for worse, It's the best engine that's out there for GTA right now.

 

I just wish more people would realize that Max Payne 3 on PC actually happened and was successful, instead of ignoring its existence and focusing on IV's PC version. Y'know, the one that happened almost 6 f*cking years ago.

 

I like to think that Max Payne 3's successful PC port was mainly because the Max Payne series had a bigger following in the PC gaming community.

 

Let's not forget that MP3 was (mostly) made by Rockstar Vancouver.

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Of course, in the next 20 years, games will take 6 to 10 years to develop, depends on how much time the developer wants to spend time on the game, and how detailed and good they want it to be. For GTA, it will take 10 years to develop a main game to the series. If GTA V took 5 years, imagine how much time a GTA X or GTA 20 will take (If GTA even will last that long).

 

 

And because gaming technology has gone further, it will take more time, because the developers need to take full advantage of the hardware that the gaming console gives. Back in 2001, the developers thought that making GTA III took a pain in the ass time, but now it seems it didn't take as much pain in the ass to make GTA III than making GTA V.

 

This doesn't mean the tools don't evolve either.

^If Rockstar Games would actually take the time and develop some proper tools like this instead of using Max Scripts or whatever other sh*tty technique they are using, they would pump up games once per year.

 

Wich would make no sense what so ever, because a game like main series' based GTA game still needs 5 years to make, with or without new, old, or the proper tools buddy boy. A spin off (or DLC) might not take such a long time, maybe like TBOGT or TLAD because they can implant the same mechanics, vehicle, and map with just a new story and characters wich doesn't take a long time at all.

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I'd assume so. RAGE seems to be a nightmare in terms of friendliness towards developers.

 

Yup, this. I read a review from someone who worked at Rockstar Games and they said that the current RAGE engine is not "Real-Time" meaning they constantly have to re-render everything even when you make the most slightest of changes. The lighting has to be baked, textures have to be applied, models have to be placed and this takes some serious time even with a lot of hardware on hand. A "real-time" engine does everything in front of you when you do it.

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I like to think that Max Payne 3's successful PC port was mainly because the Max Payne series had a bigger following in the PC gaming community.

 

Let's not forget that MP3 was (mostly) made by Rockstar Vancouver.

Mhm. But I severely doubt they'd make drastic improvements to the way the engine handles on PC just for one game. Even if they did kind of owe it to Max Payne fans on PC. Surely all of the optimizations done to the engine for MP3 weren't just for a one time thing...

 

By the way, Rockstar Vancouver merged with Rockstar Toronto shortly after development on Max Payne 3 finished, if I remember correctly. Rockstar Toronto worked on the PC version of IV, as we all know. So it's easy to connect the dots and see how this merger could benefit the PC version of V immensely.

 

Toronto has the experience with the engine on PC, since they brought IV and EFLC to the platform. Vancouver made substantial improvements and contributions to it thanks to Max Payne 3. Joining the two to create GTA V's PC version seems to make the most sense.

 

Also, the PC version of MP3 is not a port. At least, not the most basic defintion of a port that we're all used to. It was developed alongside the console versions of the game. The case seems to be the same for V's PC version, according to build logs found on the game's disk shortly after the console versions launched. The PC version was in development since at least 2012.

Edited by Xerukal
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@Xerukal: I think I didn't say it clear: I think it was a greater pain to work with it in GTAIV's era (not knowing exactly the engine's limitation, not having fully documented (?) the engine, not optimizing it enough for platforms and such), and that the only way to iron all these things out was by taking this path.

RAGE has definitely come a long way, and for better or for worse, It's the best engine that's out there for GTA right now.

 

I just wish more people would realize that Max Payne 3 on PC actually happened and was successful, instead of ignoring its existence and focusing on IV's PC version. Y'know, the one that happened almost 6 f*cking years ago.

 

 

I remember the first time I booted Max Payne 3 on my PC, which barely ran GTAIV (it had a very good GFX card, but a bad CPU), and I was surprised as hell when it ran pretty good on high settings. :p

 

I like to think that Max Payne 3's successful PC port was mainly because the Max Payne series had a bigger following in the PC gaming community.

 

Let's not forget that MP3 was (mostly) made by Rockstar Vancouver.

 

 

GTA started on the PC, if I reckon correctly. It has a following as great as Max Payne's on PC.

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