Did Toni kill CJ?

[universetwisters]

2 minutes ago, Zello said:

Yeah but nobody goes around saying you have it made irl.

 

Am I literally the only person here to have hung around east coast yuppies for half their life who said they had it made.

 

4 minutes ago, Zello said:

Also having it Made and Made man are completely different.

 

"Toni killed a made man" sounds better and more ambiguous than "Toni killed a man who had it made"

[H-G]

12 hours ago, universetwisters said:

>implying GSF and Ceasar's gang and the Triads and Madd Dogg won't be looking and gunning for Toni

Actually, I forgot to complete that sentence you've quoted. I was saying that your theory goes downhill from the "Toni has to escape from Liberty City to evade heat from CJ's allies" part because Liberty City is where a powerful, Pump-Action Shotgun-wielding mafia organization resides. Just see how dangerous they are in III. CJ's allies would never stand a chance.

 

12 hours ago, universetwisters said:

I'd be more inclined to believe that if they actually went into more detail about who Toni killed. If it's possible that Toni killed CJ within the right context, why couldn't he have killed CJ?

R* didn't have their so-called "best protagonist ever created" killed because they didn't felt the need to go overboard for their next game because of some "Impossible Trinity" thingy and have a previous protagonist killed just to show off some "new" brainless psycho who is supposed to be a "meaningful" and "deep" character.

Edited February 11, 2020 by The Eddo

[universetwisters]

1 minute ago, The Eddo said:

Actually, I forgot to complete that sentence you've quoted. I was saying that your theory goes downhill from the "Toni has to escape from Liberty City to evade heat from CJ's allies" part because Liberty City is where a powerful, Pump-Action Shotgun-wielding mafia organization resides. Just see how dangerous they are in III. CJ's allies would never stand a chance.

Clearly they aren't as powerful in LCS as they are in III. In III, the Forellis and Sindaccos are warring in tandem with the Leones for control of LC, so who knows what state the Leones were in pre CJ's hit?

 

3 minutes ago, The Eddo said:

R* didn't kill off their so-called "best protagonist ever created" because they didn't go overboard in their next game after making some sort of "Impossible Trinity" thingy in their previous game. The Impossible Trinity in IV is just merely three stories crossing over with a truckload of hype splattered all over it. For some reason, R* went overboard after seeing the Impossible Trinity create hype among the GTA fans and the result was Johnny Klebitz dying in V. Back then, there was no such thing.

 

I'm legitimately having an incredibly hard time understanding this. Is it even an argument or is it just saying that one protagonist killing another is impossible because of a developmental-related status quo?

[H-G]

4 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

Clearly they aren't as powerful in LCS as they are in III. In III, the Forellis and Sindaccos are warring in tandem with the Leones for control of LC, so who knows what state the Leones were in pre CJ's hit?

Exactly, the Forellis and the Sindaccos were warring with the Leones. So Toni killed a Forelli/Sindacco made man and fled the city. Meanwhile Mickey killed CJ and CJ's allies came to avenge CJ's death but they were well-repelled and all of them got killed.

 

4 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

I'm legitimately having an incredibly hard time understanding this. Is it even an argument or is it just saying that one protagonist killing another is impossible because of a developmental-related status quo?

Read my previous post again, I've edited it to make it more clear.

Edited February 11, 2020 by The Eddo

[universetwisters]

Just now, The Eddo said:

Exactly, the Forellis and the Sindaccos were warring with the Leones. So Toni killed a Forelli/Sindacco made man and fled the city. Meanwhile Mickey killed CJ and CJ's allies came to avenge CJ's death but they were well-repelled

 

But why couldn't Toni have killed CJ while Mickley dealt with the Forelli/Sindacco issues? It's literally the same issue but you're flipping the characters involved.

 

1 minute ago, The Eddo said:

Read my previous post again, I've edited it to make it more clear.

Bless brotha I thought I was having a stroke reading that

 

Toni is pretty psycho tho (butchering Casa and blowing up a whole district for a few grand come to mind), but I doubt CJ getting whacked by Toni, if it ever were to have been confirmed by Rockstar, would be used to make a statement on the kind of character Toni is. If anything, it would show that Toni's loyalty to Sal goes to great lengths. Sal asks Toni to go find CJ and whack him, Toni does it. Sal asks Toni to hide for a few years until the heat dies down, Toni does it. If we're looking past the fact that it's a typical mob hit and wanna look deeper into it, we can probably guestimate that it shows, like I mentioned above, Toni's dedicated to doing whatever Sal tells him to do, like most of LCS.

[H-G]

6 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

But why couldn't Toni have killed CJ while Mickley dealt with the Forelli/Sindacco issues? It's literally the same issue but you're flipping the characters involved.

I said that because Toni going into hiding for a few years to evade some street gangsters and some Triads is a bit too much, in my opinion. Considering LC is a Leone stronghold, it's very doubtful if Toni would have to get out of there to be safe.

Edited February 11, 2020 by The Eddo

[universetwisters]

1 minute ago, The Eddo said:

I said that because Toni going into hiding for a few years to evade some street gangsters and some Triads is a bit too much, in my opinion. Considering LC is a Leone stronghold, it's very doubtful if Toni would have to get out of there to be safe.

 

Let's not forget a rapper, rapper's fanatic friends and quite possibly the government if Mike Toreno is still helping CJ out. Maybe GSF was strong enough to expand to the east coast after SA or had some business there that got CJ to fly over there? Maybe the SF triads are affiliated with the LC triads? Who knows my guy, there's a lot of plausible scenarios 

[H-G]

16 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

Let's not forget a rapper, rapper's fanatic friends and quite possibly the government if Mike Toreno is still helping CJ out. Maybe GSF was strong enough to expand to the east coast after SA or had some business there that got CJ to fly over there? Maybe the SF triads are affiliated with the LC triads? Who knows my guy, there's a lot of plausible scenarios 

Well, not the government though because in "Home Coming", Mike says he'll be out of CJ's life forever after he picks up Sweet from the police station. As for the rest, you're right. Anything can happen. So I'll just take it that Toni killed a Forelli/Sindacco made man. The fact that Toni can kill CJ is barely digestible to me. But about CJ having business in LC, it's pretty doubtful because even CJ knows LC is Leone-controlled, or at least it's controlled by all three mafia families whom he messed with real badly.

[universetwisters]

10 minutes ago, The Eddo said:

But about CJ having business in LC, it's pretty doubtful because even CJ knows LC is Leone-controlled, or at least it's controlled by all three mafia families whom he messed with real badly.

 

Lets imagine in this hypothetical situation, Woozie wants to franchise the four dragons and open a second location in Liberty City. The location is built and finally opened up. CJ, like the original four dragons in LV, also has a stake in business here, and he’s more familiar with the location, having lived in the city before returning to Los santos for his moms funeral. He thinks his influence within the triads and GSF is enough to keep him safe from any harm with the Leones, but apparently not. Eventually, Toni whacks him and flees. Woozie is upset and sells the casino to flee back to LV, where it’s bought by the Yakuza and opened as the big shot or whatever it was in LCS

 

Yep I’m tired lol

[H-G]

49 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

 

Lets imagine in this hypothetical situation, Woozie wants to franchise the four dragons and open a second location in Liberty City. The location is built and finally opened up. CJ, like the original four dragons in LV, also has a stake in business here, and he’s more familiar with the location, having lived in the city before returning to Los santos for his moms funeral. He thinks his influence within the triads and GSF is enough to keep him safe from any harm with the Leones, but apparently not. Eventually, Toni whacks him and flees. Woozie is upset and sells the casino to flee back to LV, where it’s bought by the Yakuza and opened as the big shot or whatever it was in LCS

 

Yep I’m tired lol

The Yakuza, or more particularly Kazuki, didn't buy the Big Shot Casino. It was taken over from the Sindaccos after "Dead Reckoning".

 

And yeah, I'm tired too. So let's get this straight and shut this topic: I believe Toni killed a made man and you believe Toni killed CJ. I don't need to explain how and/or why nor do you need to explain how and/or why. Simple.

 

By the way, nice debating with you.

Edited February 11, 2020 by The Eddo

[Datalvarezguy]

9 hours ago, universetwisters said:

 

Whaaaaat

 

I'd say he had it p made considering all he's got postgame

Alright time to throw myself into this autistic cesspool.

If we going by Mafia Rules (Which Rockstar themselves didn't do much considering the mafias in 3D era are wonky af) Carl wouldn't had been made, seeing how he ain't sicilian. Also, considering the whole background with the game itself (All 3 Italian Mafia families trying to off each other) its possible that the "Made guy" was a Sindacco or Forelli highup that was trying to start their play that Sal wanted out of chessboard. It seems to be implied that half the reason he got Toni out of LC was because at that point everyone wanted his head on a pike.


The way they talk about it, its all but said the hit was in Liberty, then after it was made, Sal told Toni to get Upstate until the heat died down.

[universetwisters]

9 hours ago, The Eddo said:

The Yakuza, or more particularly Kazuki, didn't buy the Big Shot Casino. It was taken over from the Sindaccos after "Dead Reckoning".

 

O sh*t I must've missed that, but still Woozie might've sold it to them who knows. Nice debating with you too you

 

1 hour ago, Datalvarezguy said:

The way they talk about it, its all but said the hit was in Liberty, then after it was made, Sal told Toni to get Upstate until the heat died down.

 

When did they say that the hit was in Liberty?

[Datalvarezguy]

1 hour ago, universetwisters said:

 

O sh*t I must've missed that, but still Woozie might've sold it to them who knows. Nice debating with you too you

 

 

When did they say that the hit was in Liberty?

Oh it wasn't outright said, just implied from the way everyone talks. It's mostly the dialog between Toni and Ma Cipriani and Sal. Never outright said, just heavily implied, with the whole "They made you run away" thing Ma has. 

[universetwisters]

4 minutes ago, Datalvarezguy said:

Oh it wasn't outright said, just implied from the way everyone talks. It's mostly the dialog between Toni and Ma Cipriani and Sal. Never outright said, just heavily implied, with the whole "They made you run away" thing Ma has. 

 

Maybe he had to run away because they knew it was Toni or someone affiliated with the Leones in LC

[Datalvarezguy]

1 minute ago, universetwisters said:

 

Maybe he had to run away because they knew it was Toni or someone affiliated with the Leones in LC

I dunno, I don't buy it. It's a nice little theory but I just don't see it happening at all. Since most of Rockstar's early representations of the Mafia have been inspired by mobster movies, I imagine they just went for the classic "Hey man, you did a hot hit, better get outta town for a couple months/years nyeah?" cliché that they do sometimes. The more you try to feel the logic in this the less convincing it becomes.

[universetwisters]

1 minute ago, Datalvarezguy said:

I dunno, I don't buy it. It's a nice little theory but I just don't see it happening at all. Since most of Rockstar's early representations of the Mafia have been inspired by mobster movies, I imagine they just went for the classic "Hey man, you did a hot hit, better get outta town for a couple months/years nyeah?" cliché that they do sometimes. The more you try to feel the logic in this the less convincing it becomes.

 

Then CJ was in LC for whatever reason and Sal thought it was an opportune time for a hit

[Datalvarezguy]

1 minute ago, universetwisters said:

 

Then CJ was in LC for whatever reason and Sal thought it was an opportune time for a hit

I don't buy it. CJ would be smart enough to stay away from LC after f*cking over Sal. Sides, I don't think anyone in the family would approve of CJ going to LC for anything ,after running away from home there for half a decade.

[universetwisters]

9 minutes ago, Datalvarezguy said:

I don't buy it. CJ would be smart enough to stay away from LC after f*cking over Sal. Sides, I don't think anyone in the family would approve of CJ going to LC for anything ,after running away from home there for half a decade.

 

Maybe CJ thought he'd be safe surrounded by the Triads or he'd fly under the radar just doing some concert booking sh*t for Madd Dogg

[Zello]

21 hours ago, universetwisters said:

 

Am I literally the only person here to have hung around east coast yuppies for half their life who said they had it made.

No one says that. People say you're loaded or winning at life, or you made it.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Zello

[universetwisters]

2 hours ago, Zello said:

No one says that. People say you're loaded or winning at life, or you made it.

 

He’s winning at life > he’s got it made > he’s a man who’s got it made > he’s a made man 

 

Again, it’s ambiguity could mean anything. I’m just saying that there’s no reason why it couldn’t mean it’s a man who has it made. Also start hanging around yuppies more

[Zello]

1 minute ago, universetwisters said:

 

He’s winning at life > he’s got it made > he’s a man who’s got it made > he’s a made man 

 

Again, it’s ambiguity could mean anything. I’m just saying that there’s no reason why it couldn’t mean it’s a man who has it made. Also start hanging around yuppies more

I work at the yuppie supermarket. No one says that sh*t.

[universetwisters]

11 minutes ago, Zello said:

I work at the yuppie supermarket. No one says that sh*t.

 

Get better at eavesdropping 

[Jeansowaty]

You're literally the only one defending this lousy "theory", lol.

[universetwisters]

6 minutes ago, Jeansowaty said:

You're literally the only one defending this lousy "theory", lol.

 

Who cares it's more interesting than Toni whacking a random mook and CJ getting away scott free with robbing Sal

[H-G]

3 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

Who cares it's more interesting than Toni whacking a random mook and CJ getting away scott free with robbing Sal

He gets away scot-free with pretty much everything he does in the storyline. Stealing a jetpack, stealing a Hydra, taking down a drug ring, blowing up planes, taking over territories, you name it.

[universetwisters]

6 minutes ago, The Eddo said:

He gets away scot-free with pretty much everything he does in the storyline. Stealing a jetpack, stealing a Hydra, taking down a drug ring, blowing up planes, taking over territories, you name it.

 

So did Johnny with all his sh*t until a few years later

[H-G]

59 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

 

So did Johnny with all his sh*t until a few years later

There's no clue that it was CJ.

[universetwisters]

32 minutes ago, The Eddo said:

There's no clue that it was CJ.

 

But it's fun to speculate which is what we've been doing for the past four pages

[Gummy]

Which Johnny are we talking about here first?

[universetwisters]

25 minutes ago, Gummy  said:

Which Johnny are we talking about here first?

Klebitz