Did Toni kill CJ?

[Mr_Leone]

I think this is a plausible argument. Toni was away for a couple of years and Sal didn't like CJ very much.

[Im2akillerfish]

I hope so, but I doubt it. The reason Toni was away was because he killed a Made man. CJ isn't one, so that ain't t his cause of leaving. Of course, He could have killed CJ when he was away. But due to the lack of proof, my guess is no.

[Dope_0110]

He could have, and it would be a plausible theory. Salvatore gets robbed in LV, goes back to LC to strengthen his family's influence over the city, which eventually leads to Tony killing some made man for him. Looking to get Tony away for a few years he sends him to Los Santos, and while he is laying low there, away from the italian mafia, he get's instructions from Salvatore to kill CJ.

There is no proof of course, but it is a very viable theory, that makes sense considering all that has happened previously between these characters.

[HOW'S ANNIE?]

Whether it was Toni or not, I have no doubt in my mind that Sal had CJ killed some time after the events of San Andreas. You look at Sal's track record and, no matter who it was, he had them killed if they had backstabbed him or posed a threat.

[AnDReJ98]

R* said 'we don't know', what they also said about Catalina & what happens with Claude after events of III. Anyway, Salvatore is unable to kill CJ, you forgot who CJ actually is. Although acting like prick and doesn't know what to do in some moments, he still can do whatever he wants, and have whatever he want, also most powerful man in the state at the end of game, so no. Salvatore doesn't have a chance of killing him.

[Im2akillerfish]

R* said 'we don't know', what they also said about Catalina & what happens with Claude after events of III. Anyway, Salvatore is unable to kill CJ, you forgot who CJ actually is. Although acting like prick and doesn't know what to do in some moments, he still can do whatever he wants, and have whatever he want, also most powerful man in the state at the end of game, so no. Salvatore doesn't have a chance of killing him.

Even though The Vance crime family was on the top after VCS, Diaz still killed Victor. Having connections won't guarantee person in question is safe. Toni did kill the Mayor of LC, even when guarded by tons of bodyguards. Claude killed Salvatore, So the "Most Powerful person" Argument may not work with this case.

[universetwisters]

I hope he did. And when Sal says Toni killed a made man, do they even specify the mob, or do they mean it as a guy who "has it made"? CJ owns a garage, airstrip, manages a rapper, owns a stake in a casino, and so on. So he probably has it made.

[Sergiu]

I hope he did. And when Sal says Toni killed a made man, do they even specify the mob, or do they mean it as a guy who "has it made"? CJ owns a garage, airstrip, manages a rapper, owns a stake in a casino, and so on. So he probably has it made.

The term 'made man' is specifically used for a high ranking Mafia member. Well, in case we speak about this domain. I can guarantee it wasn't CJ.

A made man kill has to be justified or else the one who did it gets whacked. Well, in Toni's case, he ran away, just like Michael Corleone did in 'The Godfather'. It was all forgotten when he came back.

On the other side, in the movie 'Goodfellas' Tommy DeVito got killed (in the JD O'Toole fashion) because of killing a made man, Billy Batts.

 

This theory has been busted.

Edited July 22, 2014 by CasualSergiu

[Jeansowaty]

I don't think so.

[AnDReJ98]

Of course connection won't always do, and also i didn't said CJ is most powerful of all, he's most powerful in SA state, and CJ himself is like a toy so it would be different. Although Tony did what he did, that guy who learned to kiss Salvatore's ass all the time still can't somehow match. Remember what also CJ did, and that's far more unexpected and unrealistic (because not serious and not so well written story). So looking by that side, CJ wins.

[Vercetti42]

Of course connection won't always do, and also i didn't said CJ is most powerful of all, he's most powerful in SA state, and CJ himself is like a toy so it would be different. Although Tony did what he did, that guy who learned to kiss Salvatore's ass all the time still can't somehow match. Remember what also CJ did, and that's far more unexpected and unrealistic (because not serious and not so well written story). So looking by that side, CJ wins.

 

What did CJ even do? All he did was do hundreds of pointless tasks for a single goal which didn't have any connection to the tasks itself. That doesn't make him better than Salvatore.

 

Regardless of whether it was Toni or not, I'm sure Salvatore killed CJ after the events of San Andreas. We're talking about the mafia here and Sal is the Don. You back stab the Don and you're dead, that is the way it works. If we're going to say that Sal did not make an effort to kill CJ despite CJ betraying him, that leaves on big plot-hole.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Vercetti42

[Sergiu]

 

Of course connection won't always do, and also i didn't said CJ is most powerful of all, he's most powerful in SA state, and CJ himself is like a toy so it would be different. Although Tony did what he did, that guy who learned to kiss Salvatore's ass all the time still can't somehow match. Remember what also CJ did, and that's far more unexpected and unrealistic (because not serious and not so well written story). So looking by that side, CJ wins.

 

What did CJ even do? All he did was do hundreds of pointless tasks for a single goal which didn't have any connection to the tasks itself. That doesn't make him better than Salvatore.

 

Regardless of whether it was Toni or not, I'm sure Salvatore killed CJ after the events of San Andreas. We're talking about the mafia here and Sal is the Don. You back stab the Don and you're dead, that is the way it works. If we're going to say that Sal did not make an effort to kill CJ despite CJ betraying him, that leaves on big plot-hole.

 

It wasn't Toni. The theory got debunked.

But who knows? Maybe Sal did eventually kill CJ.

Edited July 22, 2014 by CasualSergiu

[The Byzantine Empire]

Salvatore's last words to CJ after the robbery "You are f*cked! You hear me?! Your friends, your whole family, your contacts you are ******* f*cked!"

 

Salvatore is one of the strongest men in these times GTA cities. He controls the most powerful italian mafia family in three families(Forelli, Sindacco, Leone). His words should be taken seriously, especially by a street gang boy. Salvatore could take a revenge.

 

But CJ is capable of fight against large number of enemies and skilled asassins. Salvatore could send his best man, another one man army, Toni Cipriani for end this. This is not a bad theory!

 

And this theory is supported by a brutal truth. The Mafia never forgets....

Edited July 22, 2014 by Khan96

[killdrivetheftvehicle]

Toni was laying low after killing a made man. Made man, like CasualSergiu said is a high ranking member of Mafia, so it excludes CJ. Laying low means hiding from the other mobs and from the police, so going for a hit is a no no. So the theory holds no water. AND consider the following:

in gta III Marty Chonks mission "Her Lover" you pick up Carl, a hip-hop styled dressing brother, and bring him to the factory, only this time Marty gets it instead.

My theory is that CJ is alive and well in Liberty City in 2001.

[Dope_0110]

Toni was laying low after killing a made man. Made man, like CasualSergiu said is a high ranking member of Mafia, so it excludes CJ. Laying low means hiding from the other mobs and from the police, so going for a hit is a no no. So the theory holds no water. AND consider the following:

in gta III Marty Chonks mission "Her Lover" you pick up Carl, a hip-hop styled dressing brother, and bring him to the factory, only this time Marty gets it instead.

My theory is that CJ is alive and well in Liberty City in 2001.

Actually it's only laying low from mafia, not really so much about police, and since LC mafia families aren't present in LS (at least we never got to see them) it's a place where Tony could kill someone without popping up on LC mafia's radar.

 

Also, that Carl from III shares nothing more than a name with CJ from SA. He has blonde hair and is kind of... well.. white. And that's kind of weird for CJ, unless he had that disease that causes his skin to lose pigment and become white, and also changed his voice to a clearly white man's voice and manner of talk... all seen in the mission video below.

Also, why would CJ go back to LC of all places, a city largely controlled by Salvatore, who has no love for him.

 

 

Edited July 23, 2014 by Dope_0110

[TenAte108]

if toni is still alive in 2001, cj hasnt heard of after 1992, salvatore made a phone call threat to cj after the casino heist, toni is a maniac, joey knows cj very well, tenpeeny said before his death that he doesnt want to get killed by a crazy mob (end of the line mission after killing big smoke), big smoke had affiliations with mafia jerks and russians and he dies, so then at least salvatore might have sent some hitmen to cj at grove street to kill him but the hit didnt go well and cj swarmed them with his minigun and homies, with that cj knew that salvatore is serious so cj may be hiding from leone

[Evil empire]

Carl Johnson and Toni Cipriani are fictional characters involved in fictional stories but anyway, from an immersion-friendly point of view: since CJ turns all the mafia families into enemies by robbing them in the Caligula casino and since the Grove Street Families don't have any influence in Liberty City why would Toni exile from Liberty City if he killed Carl Johnson? It doesn't make any sense.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Evil empire

[universetwisters]

15 minutes ago, Evil empire said:

Carl Johnson and Toni Cipriani involved in fictional stories but anyway, from an immersion-friendly point of view: since CJ turns all the mafia families into enemies by robbing them in the Caligula casino and since the Grove Street Families don't have any influence in Liberty City why would Toni exile from Liberty City if he killed Carl Johnson? It doesn't make any sense.

 

>Toni kills CJ
>People who know CJ also know he was behind the robbery of Caligula's
>CJ's associates somehow figure out it was specifically Toni who pulled the trigger because Toni was sloppy at cleaning up evidence, security camera footage, whatever and figure out he's from LC
>Toni flees from LC for his own safety under orders of Salvatore so he can be like "whos that guy I havent seen him ever"

[Copcaller]

Aside from the fact that Toni couldn't kill CJ I'm pretty sure it's implied to be a high ranking wise guy from a rival family you'd think it'd play a bigger plot point but the games writing seemed rushed imo.

[Evil empire]

18 hours ago, universetwisters said:

 

>Toni kills CJ
>People who know CJ also know he was behind the robbery of Caligula's
>CJ's associates somehow figure out it was specifically Toni who pulled the trigger because Toni was sloppy at cleaning up evidence, security camera footage, whatever and figure out he's from LC
>Toni flees from LC for his own safety under orders of Salvatore so he can be like "whos that guy I havent seen him ever"

Your theory doesn't make any sense.

 

From an immersion-friendly point of view  if Toni killed CJ those who would be the most motivated to avenge him are the GSF who don't have any influence in LC whereas the Triads are less powerful during LCS' events than in 3. What's more the mafiosi always claim responsibility for their crimes especially when someone robbed them million dollars.

Edited January 9, 2020 by Evil empire

[universetwisters]

48 minutes ago, Evil empire said:

Your theory doesn't make any sense.

 

From an immersion-friendly point of view  if Toni killed CJ those who would be the most motivated to avenge him are the GSF who don't have any influence in LC whereas the Triads are less powerful during LCS' events than in 3. What's more the mafiosi always claim responsibility for their crimes especially when someone robbed them million dollars.

 

I don’t have a problem imagining Grove/Families going after Toni if they’re a national gang like they’re depicted to be in the HD era. Not only that but the triads in SF are probably different than the ones in LC. They won’t care about anything Woozie does like how Woozie won’t care about their fish factory blowing up. 

 

>the mafia always claim responsibility for their crime 

 

[citation needed] because Omertà 

[Jeansowaty]

This theory does not make any f*cking sense at all. Toni kills a made man and leaves Liberty City. LIBERTY CITY. Why would he have to lay low after killing someone from the other side of the country? Fleeing from his own home town? Give me a break. He killed a rival capo from LC, probably from the Sindaccos or the Forellis or maybe another Mafia family that went wiped out by the time of 1998. Oh and one more thing, LCS story sucks, Toni fled after killing a made man but wiping out an entire f*cking mafia family, killing its don and then blowing up an entire district and probably killing another mob boss is completely okay? And he stayed in the very same city for another 3 years and got morbidly obese over this time? Someone at R* Leeds must have been smoking some good pot while writing this trainwreck of a storyline.

[universetwisters]

40 minutes ago, Jeansowaty said:

This theory does not make any f*cking sense at all. Toni kills a made man and leaves Liberty City. LIBERTY CITY. Why would he have to lay low after killing someone from the other side of the country? Fleeing from his own home town? Give me a break.

 

He has to flee liberty city because CJ’s allies know that he’s from LC and he doesn’t wanna get whacked or whatever. Maybe they positively identified him because Toni was sloppy and got caught on a camera strangling CJ, who knows. Maybe Sal was paranoid thinking that Toni would bring a lot of heat to him and told Toni to take a vacation in Sicily or whatever? Say what you want but imo Toni killing CJ sounds a lot more plausible and interesting than Toni having to kill a made man and running away, nevermind the fact he does it several more times in the story.

 

>Toni got morbidly obese 

 

Mamas been feeding him good

[H-G]

The Sindaccos and the Forellis most likely kicked the Leones out of the ownership of Caligula's Casino because they also had a stake in it and the loss happened during the Leone management over it. Afterwards, Salvatore most likely left for Liberty City and thus, he couldn't have done anything about CJ. As for Toni, I think he was looking after the Leones in Liberty City while Salvatore was in Las Venturas because he was most likely a capo back in 1992. In fact, I think Toni already was a capo in 1992 because Vincenzo is a capo in LCS and he is heavily implied to have taken over Toni's place in the Leones.

On 1/9/2020 at 10:27 PM, universetwisters said:

He has to flee liberty city because CJ’s allies know that he’s from LC and he doesn’t wanna get whacked or whatever. Maybe they positively identified him because Toni was sloppy and got caught on a camera strangling CJ, who knows.

Have you EVER seen a ghetto street with a surveillance camera in it? I 1,000,000% doubt if Los Santos can control crime with surveillance cameras. LOL. As for the whole "CJ's allies going after Toni" thing, even if Toni had killed CJ-which is plain senseless, in my opinion-they would most likely think that one of the gangs who are rivals of Grove Streets must've done it. So, I guess this kinda totally bombshells your whole theory, pal/ntsc.

 

Anyway, as for LCS' story saying that Toni killed a made man, I'd like to believe that the made man belonged the Forellis. Apparently, the made man was two-faced and was secretly working for both of the Sindaccos and the Forellis. Not to mention, he was very important to the LCPD because he was in a witness protection program. However, nobody was aware that this guy is so deep within the aforementioned three parties. Salvatore saw the made man as a threat to himself because the made man had some serious evidence against him, so Salvatore ordered Toni to assassinate him and get the evidence. Toni did as told and got the evidence so Salvatore can personally destroy it. But when the heat from the Sindaccos, the Forellis and the LCPD became too serious, Toni had to flee from Liberty City to lay low somewhere unknown.

Edited January 10, 2020 by The Eddo

[universetwisters]

9 hours ago, The Eddo said:

The Sindaccos and the Forellis most likely kicked the Leones out of the ownership of Caligula's Casino because they also had a stake in it and the loss happened during the Leone management over it. Afterwards, Salvatore most likely left for Liberty City and thus, he couldn't have done anything about CJ. As for Toni, I think he was looking after the Leones in Liberty City while Salvatore was in Las Venturas because he was most likely a capo back in 1992. In fact, I think Toni already was a capo in 1992 because Vincenzo is a capo in LCS and he is heavily implied to have taken over Toni's place in the Leones.

 

It's plausible that the two families kicked the Leones out of ownership, but that raises an equally interesting theory; Sal told them about CJ's involvement in the robbery and they go after them. So even if Toni didn't whack CJ, CJ got whacked by one of the remaining two families.

 

Quote

Have you EVER seen a ghetto street with a surveillance camera in it? I 1,000,000% doubt if Los Santos can control crime with surveillance cameras. LOL. As for the whole "CJ's allies going after Toni" thing, even if Toni had killed CJ-which is plain senseless, in my opinion-they would most likely think that one of the gangs who are rivals of Grove Streets must've done it. So, I guess this kinda totally bombshells your whole theory, pal/ntsc.

 

Have you ever been to a ghetto and seen the amount of security cameras or are you just stupid. Plus, there's no guarantee he whacked CJ in the ghetto, maybe he snuck into Madd Dogg's mansion and did it, maybe he did it when CJ was out in LC promoting Madd Dogg's new rap album, who knows. 

 

>They would think that one of the gangs who are rivals of Grove Street must've done it

 

Wouldn't the Leones be a rival of them after the Casino Heist, or the Triads at least? It's not like the Triads don't know that they pissed off the Leones with the casino heist. And we know the Leones aren't one to idly sit back and take whatever hits they get without fighting back. 

[H-G]

11 hours ago, universetwisters said:

It's plausible that the two families kicked the Leones out of ownership, but that raises an equally interesting theory; Sal told them about CJ's involvement in the robbery and they go after them. So even if Toni didn't whack CJ, CJ got whacked by one of the remaining two families.

I doubt if the Sindaccos and the Forellis would listen to Salvatore if he said something like that. They would most likely use the losses caused by the heist as a well-placed excuse to kick the Leones out because all three families are sworn enemies of each other.

 

11 hours ago, universetwisters said:

Have you ever been to a ghetto and seen the amount of security cameras or are you just stupid. Plus, there's no guarantee he whacked CJ in the ghetto, maybe he snuck into Madd Dogg's mansion and did it, maybe he did it when CJ was out in LC promoting Madd Dogg's new rap album, who knows.

I doubt if the Los Angeles' ghetto had security cameras in 1992. And you can't say Madd Dogg's mansion had security cameras. Because if the mansion had security cameras, then Madd Dogg would've easily recognized CJ as the guy who stole his rhyme book and it would only further break the already broken story of San Andreas.

 

11 hours ago, universetwisters said:

>They would think that one of the gangs who are rivals of Grove Street must've done it

 

Wouldn't the Leones be a rival of them after the Casino Heist, or the Triads at least? It's not like the Triads don't know that they pissed off the Leones with the casino heist. And we know the Leones aren't one to idly sit back and take whatever hits they get without fighting back. 

Why would a tough-guy Italian mobster, who was most likely a caporegime back in 1992, fear some street gangsters from the ghetto or some Triads so much that he would have to flee the whole country and lay low for a whole four years just to evade the people who can barely manage to hold their ground all the way over in San Andreas without some black guy helping them out? The backstory of Liberty City Stories clearly states and indicates that the story stems out from a mafia feud involving the death of a rival mafia family's made man. It is highly likely that Toni was going to face the heat from the Sindaccos, the Forellis and the LCPD altogether and thus, he had to flee from the city. If you like CJ getting whacked by Liberty City mobsters so much, I'll make you a modification for you someday, happy now?

Edited January 11, 2020 by The Eddo

[Zello]

21 hours ago, The Eddo said:

 As for Toni, I think he was looking after the Leones in Liberty City while Salvatore was in Las Venturas because he was most likely a capo back in 1992. In fact, I think Toni already was a capo in 1992 because Vincenzo is a capo in LCS and he is heavily implied to have taken over Toni's place in the Leones.

 

 

 

 

 

Toni can't be a capo because in order to be a capo you have to be a made man first. And in LCS we see him become Made. The whole reason he ran away from Liberty City was because he killed a Made man and in order to kill a Made man you have to be a made man yourself and ask for permission Toni did neither.

Edited January 11, 2020 by Zello

[H-G]

1 minute ago, Zello said:

 

(video)

 

Toni can't be a capo because in order to be a capo you have to be a made man first. And in LCS we see him become Made.

 

According to my theory, Toni was a caporegime in 1992 but he was replaced with Vincenzo in 1998 and he had to start from the first step of the ladder to climb up and become a made man.

[Zello]

Just now, The Eddo said:

According to my theory, Toni was a caporegime in 1992 but he was replaced with Vincenzo in 1998 and he had to start from the first step of the ladder to climb up and become a made man.

That doesn't happen in the Mafia.

[H-G]

4 minutes ago, Zello said:

That doesn't happen in the Mafia.

Okay, then, let's say Toni was a freshly-recruited goon in 1992 and there was some other guy as the caporegime. When the caporegime got killed in 1994 during a gang war, Salvatore had the made man killed in retaliation.

Edited January 11, 2020 by The Eddo