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acmilano

Military Crisis in Ukraine

Recommended Posts

K^2

Anyway, I highly doubt NATO's gonna do anything unless Russia goes full retard. As long as they stop at the annexation of Crimea, all should be good.

Like I said, the comment about annexation of Austria and Czechoslovakia is going to fly over the head of many people.

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Raavi

Anschluss of Ukraine, I don't like the sound of that.

Edited by Raavi

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Mr. House

Annexion of Austria and Czechoslovakia wasn't their war either.......USA and EU need to do something until it's too late again.

This is not going to create another world war and Russia is not Nazi Germany.

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K^2

 

Annexion of Austria and Czechoslovakia wasn't their war either.......USA and EU need to do something until it's too late again.

This is not going to create another world war and Russia is not Nazi Germany.

 

By what standards? Russian government has a strong vertical of power, very little in terms of checks and balances, with strong investment in military-industrial complex. All of that under support of nationalist groups. So we have a neo-Fascist state with strong undertones of nationalism, trying to rebuild a once-powerful empire. Any of that sounds familiar? I can go on.

 

And may I remind you that the only reason we had a WWII was because Hitler's ambitions went understated. With sentiment that this won't be another World War being pretty much the leading cause that it was.

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gtamann123

CoD coming ealy this year i see. Activision are really taking it too far now.

Looks like Bethesda fanboys will get Fallout 4 earlier than expected as well

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Moth

 

 

Annexion of Austria and Czechoslovakia wasn't their war either.......USA and EU need to do something until it's too late again.

This is not going to create another world war and Russia is not Nazi Germany.

 

By what standards? Russian government has a strong vertical of power, very little in terms of checks and balances, with strong investment in military-industrial complex. All of that under support of nationalist groups. So we have a neo-Fascist state with strong undertones of nationalism, trying to rebuild a once-powerful empire. Any of that sounds familiar? I can go on.

 

And may I remind you that the only reason we had a WWII was because Hitler's ambitions went understated. With sentiment that this won't be another World War being pretty much the leading cause that it was.

 

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"- George Santayana.

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Mr. House

 

 

Annexion of Austria and Czechoslovakia wasn't their war either.......USA and EU need to do something until it's too late again.

This is not going to create another world war and Russia is not Nazi Germany.

 

By what standards? Russian government has a strong vertical of power, very little in terms of checks and balances, with strong investment in military-industrial complex. All of that under support of nationalist groups. So we have a neo-Fascist state with strong undertones of nationalism, trying to rebuild a once-powerful empire. Any of that sounds familiar? I can go on.

 

And may I remind you that the only reason we had a WWII was because Hitler's ambitions went understated. With sentiment that this won't be another World War being pretty much the leading cause that it was.

 

Neo-Fascist? Trying to rebuild what? The USSR? Come on. Russia is controlled largely by extremely corrupt oligarchs with an interest in money and power. The Nazi party largely consisted of maniacs with an ideology that they were willing to carry out if it took the world to hell. I don't see any particular ideology coming from the heads of state in Russia, being as they're generally self serving. Disregarding that, Germany wasn't able to annex half of western Europe just because France and the UK were sitting on their hands with disinterest. These two countries were largely smashed by the previous world war and were looking for peace at any cost. The situation in Europe today is much different. There's also the fact that the population and economy doesn't even compare to what caused WWII. An industrial powerhouse dwarfing the rest of Europe Russia is not.

 

What you are suggesting is that the Russian heads of state are ideologically driven maniacs without even the slightest ability to think tactically for half a second. Even if Russia annexed the whole of the balkans and everything north of what used to be the Ottoman empire it would not be able to commence an all out war against the whole of the western world. Even if it would, the outcome would end the world. You're putting too much faith in the idea that the leaders of Russia care about some vague idea of bringing back the old glory days of he USSR.

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Der Süden

Anschluss of Ukraine, I don't like the sound of that.

Please, "Anneksiya", not Anschluss.

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K^2

Neo-Fascist?

Do me a favor and look up Fascism.

 

 

Trying to rebuild what? The USSR? Come on.

Doing the best they can. The goal is very reaching, I won't argue, but that's what they are striving for. If you have a moment, look up Soviet Anthem and give it a listen. Then find the modern Russian Anthem, put in place by Putin, and compare. And there are a lot of other changes, more recent ones, that are all aimed at rebuilding status-quo of the Soviet Union. Again, there are many limitations, most of which is economy, but that's the direction they are going with.

 

 

Russia is controlled largely by extremely corrupt oligarchs with an interest in money and power.

Was. Up to early 2000's. You seem to be out of touch with modern Russian politics. Putin has forced out, jailed, or had murdered most of the ones that were in power. Ones that still have any power left have it only because Putin lets them have it. They play along because they will lose it all, including their lives if they don't. Russian oligarchy and the parliament are all under Putin's control. It's been a one-man show for almost half a decade.

 

 

The Nazi party largely consisted of maniacs with an ideology that they were willing to carry out if it took the world to hell. I don't see any particular ideology coming from the heads of state in Russia, being as they're generally self serving.

Ideology is turned inwards. Go look up YouTube videos on anything that's going on with Russia right now, and read through the comments. You'll have no trouble finding these written by Russian youth by the horrible use of English grammar. A lot of these will make you cringe at the sort of propaganda that leads to this. Not a lot of this is obvious from an outsider, but to anyone who can read in Russian, I'm telling you, Hitlerjunge doesn't look as bad in comparison.

 

 

Disregarding that, Germany wasn't able to annex half of western Europe just because France and the UK were sitting on their hands with disinterest. These two countries were largely smashed by the previous world war and were looking for peace at any cost. The situation in Europe today is much different. There's also the fact that the population and economy doesn't even compare to what caused WWII. An industrial powerhouse dwarfing the rest of Europe Russia is not.

Germany was recovering from the same. One of the reason they were able to recover is the amount of freedom they were allowed in expanding. Back in '37, they did not have the strength to take on the entirety of Europe, despite European situation.

 

Similarly, Russia is investing heavily in its military. It's the only industry they have going. They do over-rely on oil, and their economy cannot handle a prolonged war. On the other hand, Russia is sitting on a nuclear arsenal. Now, I doubt that they'd be willing to risk use of strategic nuclear weapons, but Soviet Union has built more tactical nukes than anybody else, because they were the only ones who could make proper use of them. Russia would be quite willing to use the small 5kT-20kT tactical nukes when it comes to major war.

 

 

What you are suggesting is that the Russian heads of state are ideologically driven maniacs without even the slightest ability to think tactically for half a second. Even if Russia annexed the whole of the balkans and everything north of what used to be the Ottoman empire it would not be able to commence an all out war against the whole of the western world. Even if it would, the outcome would end the world. You're putting too much faith in the idea that the leaders of Russia care about some vague idea of bringing back the old glory days of he USSR.

There is only one leader in Russia, and if you want to know if he's ideologically-driven, re-watch the Olympics.

 

And read some history books. You are using, verbatim, all of the excuses that led to WWII. Even if you are right, that ought to at least give you a pause. The way you are just steam-rolling ahead is scary, because it demonstrates clear ignorance of history, and your actual replies demonstrate ignorance of anything that's going on in Russia, economically or politically. I honestly hope that people in charge of situation know better, but general public needs to be educated as well.

 

This isn't a problem that's going to go away. And it isn't a problem that's just a problem for Eastern Europe. This is a global problem that's going to get worse and worse until it boils over.

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Omnia sunt Communia

I highly doubt Russian intervention in Ukraine would lead to a world war in the same way the invasion of Austria/Czechoslovakia would. The Western powers do not have empires to protect like the did in World War II. That was the main reason World War II happened (and the reason it was a global war). Due to the nature of global capitalism is does not matter who is in power in Ukraine, the cogs will still turn, and capital will continue to flow.

 

I wouldn't go as far as to say that Russia is a fascist state though, authoritarian yes, but not fascist. Not yet.

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K^2

Definitions of Fascism. If you have some basic understanding of Russian internal politics, just scroll down the list and see how long you can insist on Russia not fitting the bill.

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Doc Rikowski

If you ask me many western "democracies" can be considered authoritarian to a certain degree. Some can be easily considered imperialists. They way they present themselves is different from the way they really are. But if you go at the core of things there's real no big differences between Russia and some other "democratic" countries.

 

No need to reply to this cause we'll go off topic and we'll never agree anyway. Just skip me. :D

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I cucked Alex Jones

It's worth noting that with the Cossack resurgence, (which is being encouraged by the Kremlin) Russia has a nationalistic militia that will mercilessly deal with "enemies of the state" and will follow their masters orders without question. It's like the Schutzstaffel on steroids.

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Spaghetti Cat

^ Was that the biker gang that rolled in?

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darthYENIK

What the f*ck, Russia? This is the 21st century, you can't just invade a country and hope nobody finds out or cares.

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Geralt of Rivia

It's not about nobody caring. It's about doing it at the right time.

 

Ukraine has no real government right now. Crimea is heavily Pro-Russian. The West and the UN aren't gonna do sh*t unless Russia fully invades Ukraine, because Ukraine has been absolutely passive during this whole invasion.

 

Putin's taking advantage of a time in where he can do exactly what he wants.

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K^2

If you ask me many western "democracies" can be considered authoritarian to a certain degree. Some can be easily considered imperialists. They way they present themselves is different from the way they really are. But if you go at the core of things there's real no big differences between Russia and some other "democratic" countries.

You are just embarrassing yourself now.

 

 

Ukraine has no real government right now.

It's a weak government, but they are acting fairly well-organized, all things considered. They are mobilizing forces. The draft board has started drafting people today. At the same time, nobody's jumping the gun on the Crimea situation. So far, Crimeans have turned Putin's excuse that troops are necessary to maintain peace into a bad joke. There is zero aggression from either side, and heavily armed and armored Russian troops with absolutely nothing to do look almost silly in every-day life of Crimea.

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Geralt of Rivia

I wouldn't say there's no aggression...

Edited by TheMasterfocker

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K^2

Looks like this is about to change. 1st Battalion of Ukrainian Naval Infantry stationed in Feodosia got surrounded by Russian troops at their base. They've just been issued an ultimatum to lay down the weapons and surrender within an hour, which Ukrainian Marines don't look like planning to comply with. This probably isn't going to end well.

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sivispacem

 

Russia is controlled largely by extremely corrupt oligarchs with an interest in money and power.

Was. Up to early 2000's. You seem to be out of touch with modern Russian politics. Putin has forced out, jailed, or had murdered most of the ones that were in power. Ones that still have any power left have it only because Putin lets them have it. They play along because they will lose it all, including their lives if they don't. Russian oligarchy and the parliament are all under Putin's control. It's been a one-man show for almost half a decade.

 

Russia has gradually become a counter-intelligence state since Yelsin left office. Putin effectively rebuilt the intelligence apperatus which was disbanded when the Soviet Union fell; he re-integrated many of the old guard into senior positions in the FSB, SVR and GRU and those that didn't invariably ended up in United Russia. The FSB has their hand in every single aspect of Russian life, from business to the judiciary, education to religion- civil and military alike.

 

In terms of political structure and intelligence agency penetration, modern Russia is surprisingly similar to East Germany under the Stasi. In terms of political nationalism, suppression of minorities and policies of advancement through antagonism, it's not exactly dissimilar to Fascist Italy (I'll avoid invoking Godwin's law).

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Misbegotten cad

I would like to remind everybody that Russian people are good and peaceful folk, in general.

 

Reason for these agressions are in the Russian leadership that is rotten to the core. I do not know what it is with russian leaders, but longer they stay in power, more insane the go.

 

Let us hope that the Russian people will rise to oppose Putin in this matter. ANd they already have in social media: For the russian social medias are now full of protesting voices that demand russia to make peace with Ukraine.

 

So there is hope yet.

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K^2

In terms of political structure and intelligence agency penetration, modern Russia is surprisingly similar to East Germany under the Stasi.

Maybe surprising at the first glance, but painfully obvious in retrospect. Putin's core leadership experience comes from serving under KGB in East Germany. Albeit, a touch later. Most of what he knows about political influence would have come from that model.

 

ANd they already have in social media: For the russian social medias are now full of protesting voices that demand russia to make peace with Ukraine.

Among English-speakers, definitely. Unfortunately, large chunk of Russian population sticks to Russian-only sites, and situation there is quite different. Partly because the general crowd is less educated, and partly because there are people payed for spreading party's line through Russia's main social networks.

 

I mean, Russian "news agencies" are openly accusing West of being Nazi-philes, of U.S. State Department paying and arming the rebels in Kyiv. And people are buying it. You wouldn't believe how huge is the number of people who think that this is a liberation effort, and are yelling for more aggressive action and to move troops into mainland Ukraine.

 

The level to which the propaganda and censorship penetrates into all forms of communication is absolutely unbelievable.

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Dingdongs

Looks like this is about to change. 1st Battalion of Ukrainian Naval Infantry stationed in Feodosia got surrounded by Russian troops at their base. They've just been issued an ultimatum to lay down the weapons and surrender within an hour, which Ukrainian Marines don't look like planning to comply with. This probably isn't going to end well.

Wonder if the higher ups in Kiev are going to overrule the Marine commanders on the ground there and tell them to surrender...

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Shyabang Shyabang

 

Looks like this is about to change. 1st Battalion of Ukrainian Naval Infantry stationed in Feodosia got surrounded by Russian troops at their base. They've just been issued an ultimatum to lay down the weapons and surrender within an hour, which Ukrainian Marines don't look like planning to comply with. This probably isn't going to end well.

Wonder if the higher ups in Kiev are going to overrule the Marine commanders on the ground there and tell them to surrender...

 

I wonder what happened now that the 1-hour ultimatum has already passed?

Edited by Shyabang Shyabang

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Doc Rikowski

 

If you ask me many western "democracies" can be considered authoritarian to a certain degree. Some can be easily considered imperialists. They way they present themselves is different from the way they really are. But if you go at the core of things there's real no big differences between Russia and some other "democratic" countries.

You are just embarrassing yourself now.

 

Just as you embarrass yourself when you accuse of propaganda only one side when you know that on the other side the propaganda is just the same. ;)

 

Btw, some of protesters in Kyev were receiving daily wages. That has been reported from many sources and some of the opposition was formed by neo-nazi so let's not deny the evidence. :)

 

When over 60% of the population is Russian (Crimea) it is obviously a liberation effort (and a geo-strategic-political move of course). Why should they continue under the rule of an ethnically hostile central government?

 

Fact is Putin is a leader with cojones while the West is lead by puppets without cojones.

Nobody is going to do anything to help Ukraine.

West is strong only against the weak ones like Libya.

Nothing new in that. :D

Edited by Doc Rikowski

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sivispacem

They're not Russian, though. Just Russian speaking an ethnically. There are parts of Finland that are ethnically Swedish, does that mean that Sweden is justified in invading them if they don't like the change in regime in Helsinki?

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Frank Brown

When over 60% of the population is Russian (Crimea) it is obviously a liberation effort (and a geo-strategic-political move of course). Why should they continue under the rule of an ethnically hostile central government

I'm sorry, but in what world is the Putin Republic a country that 'liberates'?

Edited by Vlynor

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theadmiral

Does anyone else find it interesting (detached from the main issue and situation at hand here) that certain countries are allowed to use military intervention in far off lands when the international community condemns it, but it's now a bloody outrage that Russia is doing so in a destabilized neighboring country?

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K^2

When over 60% of the population is Russian (Crimea) it is obviously a liberation effort (and a geo-strategic-political move of course). Why should they continue under the rule of an ethnically hostile central government?

You've been reading too much Russia Today. There have been no hostilities towards Russian-speaking population. There have not been any Russians killed in Crimea as RF Parliament has declared. That's been admitted by speaker of Crimean parliament. Ukrainian central government is not hostile towards Russians or anyone else. There are plenty of Russian-Ukrainians in Kyiv, and majority of them supported Maidan, same as the rest of the population, and have never been treated wrongly.

 

Are there Nazi extremists in Ukraine? Of course. And quite a few of them have supported a revolution, of course. They're extremists. That's what they do. But if you want to talk about Nazis in the government, Russia. Again, just go read any comments on anything that's going on that are written by Russians. You'll find a lot of extremist stuff. Difference? In Russia, that's actually encouraged by the government. Many official youth organizations are based around the concept. And a lot of these youth end up in the armed forces. The people who are being sent into Crimea.

 

So what do you think is going to happen to Ukrainians in Crimea? Not to mention the Tatars. Being a Muslim under Russian government is very hard.

 

Once more. Stop embarrassing yourself. You've been wrong on absolutely everything so far as demonstrated by news sources, arguments from members other than myself, and several people beside myself who are aware of the situation. Seriously, just stop talking nonsense and go and try to learn something.

 

Does anyone else find it interesting (detached from the main issue and situation at hand here) that certain countries are allowed to use military intervention in far off lands when the international community condemns it, but it's now a bloody outrage that Russia is doing so in a destabilized neighboring country?

There are two positions you can take on this issue. You can look at it as military intervention always being wrong. In which case it's the outrage no matter who is behind it. Or you can take the position that military action is a necessity, at times, and should be taken when it benefits the country. Kind of a moral vs utilitarian point of view. In that case, military action isn't an outrage. But then you get to look at what's in your interest. Do you want an authoritarian country with backwards social positions and zero respect for human rights increase its political and military influence? Or do you want more moderate countries to step in and prevent the imperialist expansion of the former. I suspect, most people in civilized world would pick the second one, in which case the only outrage is how weak the reaction of the West has been so far.

 

Sometimes, these two positions align, as in this case and you get massive outrage. But that alone is a pretty good indicator that this is one of these cases where something should be done about it.

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Davo the Assassin

But what, in your opinion, can and should be done by the West in response?

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