Military Crisis in Ukraine

[Kampioen]

So why is the rest of the bodies not coming now?

Edit: Another 2 Ukrainian military planes were shot down, apperantly. Fighter jets I think.

Edited July 23, 2014 by CenMan

[poklane]

Ukraine is claiming that the 2 jets that got shot down today were shot down from Russian military.

[sivispacem]

Read reports that the rebels have been observed spreading parts from other aircraft at the crash site in order to make forensic analysis more difficult. Currently looking for attribution for this claim.

 

OSCE are still reporting their staff do not have proper access to the impact site.

[Creed Bratton]

Read reports that the rebels have been observed spreading parts from other aircraft at the crash site in order to make forensic analysis more difficult. Currently looking for attribution for this claim.

 

OSCE are still reporting their staff do not have proper access to the impact site.

What is the point of all this? Everybody knows "whodunit".

[Vercetti42]

I am never getting on a plane in my life ever again.

 

RIP to all the victims.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Vercetti42

[ddyoung]

What happened to the bodies that were taken to Donetsk?

[Svip]

What happened to the bodies that were taken to Donetsk?

 

At least 200 of them have been released and given to the Netherlands. Some of them have arrived in the Netherlands today.

[Eutyphro]

The separatists not admitting they were the ones who shot it down gets more disrespectful with the day. It would be good for them to come clean. If they don't then all objective researches will still point to them and everyone worldwide will lose all remaining respect for them.

[Alhalish]

Wonder if the Dutch will do something to Russia in retaliation...

 

Terrorists are dumb, no matter what kind of terrorist they are. Tampering with the crime scene even though it's clear as day that they are the only ones who could've done it...

 

Won't be surprised if they'll start blaming gremlins.

[Raavi]

40 victims thusfar have been flown over to the Netherlands, some in an Australian C-17 Globemaster and some in a Dutch C-130 Hercules. After they landed the coffins were carried by Dutch and Australian military and after a short but very powerful ceremony the coffins were loaded into individual funeral carriages. Various dignitaries from Malaysia, the United Kingdom, Australia and of course the Netherlands were among those in attendance.

 

The victims and their families finally got the dignity and respect they should've gotten all along.

 

Some pictures.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[poklane]

No evidence has been found that someone has tampered with the cockpit voice recorder: http://www.trust.org/item/20140723161652-gmveg

There's also a really small amount of hotels, bars etc. in Poland who are refusing Russians.

[Eutyphro]

http://www.thesundaily.my/news/1122564

"The Netherlands and other countries that lost citizens in the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 are proposing sending police officers to secure the crash site in rebel-held east Ukraine"

Edited July 23, 2014 by gtaxpert

[Kampioen]

http://www.thesundaily.my/news/1122564

 

"The Netherlands and other countries that lost citizens in the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 are proposing sending police officers to secure the crash site in rebel-held east Ukraine"

 

The seperatists already said a few days ago that we would be welcome to send people with guns to secure the crash site. Since we were invited to do so, and to avoid fighting between seperatists and the Ukrainian military in the area where debris has fallen, I think it might be a good idea.

[ddyoung]

 

What happened to the bodies that were taken to Donetsk?

At least 200 of them have been released and given to the Netherlands. Some of them have arrived in the Netherlands today.

 

No, wasn't there a group of like 30-40 people who were removed from the crash site the day after it happened?

[Kampioen]

The 40 hearse convoy and the excruciatingly long process of carrying all the coffins from the hearses really gave a sense of the scale of this tragedy. I've spent most of my day watching.

[Eutyphro]

 

 

What happened to the bodies that were taken to Donetsk?

At least 200 of them have been released and given to the Netherlands. Some of them have arrived in the Netherlands today.

 

No, wasn't there a group of like 30-40 people who were removed from the crash site the day after it happened?

 

I read somewhere that those were lying in a morgue in Donetsk and had also been put on the train and plane back. I don't know where I read it though.

[Secura]

What is the point of all this? Everybody knows "whodunit".

Russia are an odd bunch, and the separatist movement even odder, I don't see why you're surprised, they've been trying hopelessly for days to hide the wreckage of a Boeing 777, secure in the unfortunate knowledge that some ignorant f*ckwits like the one's you mentioned earlier are going to believe their story.

[FranklinDeRoosevelt]

Why are Russia denying that their seperatists are responsible though? I don't get it. Maybe because they know this is going to weaken them against Ukraine and they'd be recieving millions of more sanctions including from Netherlands now. Putin is such a c*nt for f*cks sake. He isn't even bothering to investigate who done it, well what's the point when we know who is responsible for the treacharous attack. Stop blaming Ukraine and own up you f*cking road raging pricks. I actually had some respect for them before this, but I guess it's tarnished now.

Edited July 23, 2014 by FranklinDeRoosevelt

[sivispacem]

It's utterly bizarre. They're "alternate hypothesis" is totally and utterly implausible and continuing to champion it makes them look utterly desperate. I think a lot of it has to do with the feverish, rabidly pro-Putin media. I get the impression they carry his policies as much as the inverse and he's had to scrabble to make up a theory which is both plausible enough for the Russian population not to think "well, that's just rubbish" and yet actually makes sense in light of all the utter bullsh*t the Russian media have been coming out with.

[Coin]

I think they've already moved beyond the point where they are going to be able to save face in the eyes of the international community by abandoning the narrative.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Insert-Coin-To-Continue

[Secura]

The question then would be what's the point trying to save face at all? Putin could say that he's able to float and sh*t gold when no-one else can see him and the Russian populace would still give him the benefit of the doubt in that respect and as always the international community would think he's full of proverbial sh*t. I just don't get the point.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Secura

[Audiophile]

At last.

 

Some of the bodies are in the hands of those who will treat them with dignity and respect. They're away from those pathetic animal rebels.

 

Russia and the rebels can try to spin this any which way they want, they can, kindly, f*ck off. Regardless of who was responsible for shooting down that plane (IMO and most others, the rebels) these rebels treated the victims and the site with no respect whatsoever. So that's what they are to me: pathetic animals.

 

Hopefully now the families can start the grieving process, properly.

 

Tony Abbott has basically been telling the rebels/Russia off since this happened. Not a fan of the guy but good on him.

 

EDIT:

 

Edited July 23, 2014 by Audiophile

[Stinky12]

Here's more

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b4f_1406136210

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=93d_1406139402

[Lebron365]

 

What right had american and europpean elite like Nuland,McCain and other visit Ukraine during revolution and openly support it?

Every. It's kind of their prerogative as world leaders. They can back whoever they like really.

 

So if you have leadership you must be ready that someone will try to get it back. Obama said that americans is an exceptional nation (why?)

 

compare with Hitlers words about exceptionality of germans. Country,where tiil 80 years was segregation and its more or less still in there not has moral right to teach someone democracy

Edited July 24, 2014 by K^2

[ddyoung]

How many bodies are being returned on Thursday? And are they only Dutch bodies being returned or are all bodies going to the Netherlands?

Edited July 24, 2014 by ddyoung

[a20characterusername]

 

So if you have leadership you must be ready that someone will try to get it back. Obama said that americans is an exceptional nation (why?)

 

Because "American exceptionalism" is the go-to excuse for military adventurism.

[sivispacem]

Obama said that americans is an exceptional nation (why?)

Presumably because they're the sole remaining superpower. But you rather missed the point. It's the prerogative of national leaders to lend their backing to whomever they like regardless of whether we're talking a great power or a tiny microstate.

 

compare with Hitlers words about exceptionality of germans

Invoking Godwin's Law? That's your argument invalidated, then.

 

I do find it fantastically ironic that Russian propaganda victims always seem to refer to anything they dislike as "Nazi". I know it harks back to the great patriotic war and the triumph of Stalinism over Fascism but that analogy doesn't really work when the closest government in ideology and behaviours to the Third Reich in the Northern Hemisphere is that of Russia. All-pervasive counterintelligence state? Check. Oppression of homosexuals? Check. Policies praising Russian exceptionism and promoting ultranationalism? Check. Entrenched anti-Semitism and racism? Check. Expansionist foreign policy with the goal of a greater, cross-continental superpower? State run, all-encompassing propaganda machine? Checkmate.

 

Interesting interview done by Reuters yesterday. Despite the insistence of Alexander Borodai that the rebels don't and never have possessed the SA-11 system, one of the field commanders, Alexander Khodakovsky, said not only that they did possess Buk systems but they were in the location which the US claimed they observed the launch from. So now even the rebels can't agree on it!

[Der_Don]

 

Obama said that americans is an exceptional nation (why?)

Presumably because they're the sole remaining superpower. But you rather missed the point. It's the prerogative of national leaders to lend their backing to whomever they like regardless of whether we're talking a great power or a tiny microstate.

 

compare with Hitlers words about exceptionality of germans

Invoking Godwin's Law? That's your argument invalidated, then.

 

Interesting interview done by Reuters yesterday. Despite the insistence of Alexander Borodai that the rebels don't and never have possessed the SA-11 system, one of the field commanders, Alexander Khodakovsky, said not only that they did possess Buk systems but they were in the location which the US claimed they observed the launch from. So now even the rebels can't agree on it!

 

You should also mention that Khodakovsky isn't a member of the separatists anymore. I read that he has quit due to some beef he had with some other rebel-leaders. Is it possible that he just wants to give those guys a wipe now that he has left the group?

[sivispacem]

AFAIK he's still "Security minister" of the "Donetsk People's Republic". If he's had a falling out it's news to me as he's still proclaiming himself to be a commander in their forces as recently as yesterday. The rebel movement is fairly factional but I don't reckon an ex-SBU Alpha unit operative who defected would undermine the whole thing over a petty internal dispute.

[Der_Don]

AFAIK he's still "Security minister" of the "Donetsk People's Republic". If he's had a falling out it's news to me as he's still proclaiming himself to be a commander in their forces as recently as yesterday. The rebel movement is fairly factional but I don't reckon an ex-SBU Alpha unit operative who defected would undermine the whole thing over a petty internal dispute.

Just checked the article where I read that he's a former commander and noticed that it was updated today. Apparently he revised his statement about the rebels having BUK-systems in an interview with RT.

http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2014-07/mh17-ukraine-buk-raketen-separatisten (it's German, mind)

So he's telling Western media that the rebels do have those weapons and a day later he tells RT that he didn't say anything like that.