Quantcast
Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
    1. Welcome to GTAForums!

    1. Red Dead Redemption 2

      1. Gameplay
      2. Missions
      3. Help & Support
    2. Red Dead Online

      1. Gameplay
      2. Find Lobbies & Outlaws
      3. Help & Support
    1. Crews & Posses

      1. Recruitment
    2. Events

    1. GTA Online

      1. Arena War
      2. After Hours
      3. Find Lobbies & Players
      4. Guides & Strategies
      5. Vehicles
      6. Content Creator
      7. Help & Support
    2. Grand Theft Auto Series

    3. GTA Next

    4. GTA V

      1. PC
      2. Guides & Strategies
      3. Help & Support
    5. GTA IV

      1. Episodes from Liberty City
      2. Multiplayer
      3. Guides & Strategies
      4. Help & Support
      5. GTA Mods
    6. GTA Chinatown Wars

    7. GTA Vice City Stories

    8. GTA Liberty City Stories

    9. GTA San Andreas

      1. Guides & Strategies
      2. Help & Support
      3. GTA Mods
    10. GTA Vice City

      1. Guides & Strategies
      2. Help & Support
      3. GTA Mods
    11. GTA III

      1. Guides & Strategies
      2. Help & Support
      3. GTA Mods
    12. Top Down Games

      1. GTA Advance
      2. GTA 2
      3. GTA
    13. Wiki

      1. Merchandising
    1. GTA Modding

      1. GTA V
      2. GTA IV
      3. GTA III, VC & SA
      4. Tutorials
    2. Mod Showroom

      1. Scripts & Plugins
      2. Maps
      3. Total Conversions
      4. Vehicles
      5. Textures
      6. Characters
      7. Tools
      8. Other
      9. Workshop
    3. Featured Mods

      1. DYOM
      2. OpenIV
      3. GTA: Underground
      4. GTA: Liberty City
      5. GTA: State of Liberty
    1. Red Dead Redemption

    2. Rockstar Games

    1. Off-Topic

      1. General Chat
      2. Gaming
      3. Technology
      4. Programming
      5. Movies & TV
      6. Music
      7. Sports
      8. Vehicles
    2. Expression

      1. Graphics / Visual Arts
      2. GFX Requests & Tutorials
      3. Writers' Discussion
      4. Debates & Discussion
    1. News

    2. Forum Support

    3. Site Suggestions

acmilano

Military Crisis in Ukraine

Recommended Posts

Mr. Scratch

Did you... even read it? I mean properly. I was talking about Hungary trying to take back Transylvania.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Stephan90

And suppose they do try to expand past the Balkans into, say, Romania, Hungary would potentially have a reason to ally itself with Russia.

 

Probably didn't get this sentence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sunrise Driver

Flame, what do you think happened to the opposition leader that was assassinated the other day? Bandits?

What do russian officials say? Flame "thinks" the same.

Edited by Street Mix

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Flame

Of course, I can be wrong. But and you can be wrong. And maybe this: we all, everyone can be wrong. That's why it's important not be rude. Sometimes even time doesn't show the truth about historical events.

Edited by Flame

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moth

Of course, I can be wrong. But and you can be wrong. And maybe this: we all, everyone can be wrong. That's why it's important not be rude. Sometimes even time doesn't show the truth about historical events.

So you are saying that Boris Nemtsov was killed because of the West is more believe then Putin or one his cronies killing him?

 

 

 

There has been a history of Putin critics being silenced.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sivispacem

Of course, I can be wrong. But and you can be wrong. And maybe this: we all, everyone can be wrong.

Granted, but on the balance of probability I'm unlikely to be:

 

1) The majority of Russian political figures were senior members of the KGB or later FSB, both of whom were extensively involved in targeted assassinations home and abroad.

2) There's a history of Kremlin critics, particularly those critiquing Russian military incursions, being assassinated. Sergey Yushenkov and Anna Politkovskaya, both critical of the war crimes committed by Russia in Chechnya- both assassinated. Alexander Litvinenko, highly knowledgeable on Russian covert operations conducted to destabilise foreign governments- poisoned. Viktor Yushchenko, leader of the pro-European Orange Revolution in Ukraine- mysteriously receives the highest dose of TCDD ever recorded. There's a history of critics of Putin and the concept of Novorossiya being murdered, and the most rational conclusion to draw from this is that it is the direct work of the Russian state.

 

I mean, if you have any evidence suggesting that, despite all this- the clear links between Russia and these targeted killings, their unwillingness to extradite suspects believed to be responsible, their failure at securing convictions for those responsible for organising them at home- it's more rational and reasonable to assume they're the work of external instifators, then I'm all ears. But in the absence of that evidence it simply isn't credible.

 

Sometimes even time doesn't show the truth about historical events.

And often the truth never cones out at all in oppressive counterintelligence states. Or, as is the case in Russia, is dissected and reconstituted to form something that no longer correlates with the facts of the case and instead serves a political purpose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Eutyphro

I agree that the murder has most likely been ordered by someone in the realm of Putins power, but can't it have been an assassination by a Putin allied oligarch? From what I've heard Nemkov was someone who exposed corruption, so that seems like a possibility to me. I don't think it is sure that Putin or his officials ordered it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sivispacem

Whether or not Putin is directly and personally responsible for sanctioning his assassination is basically moot. Putin and United Russia created the environment in which such assassinations are acceptable tools for undermining the Russian opposition. His leadership has encouraged Russian ultranationalism, sanctioned violence by non-state actors against the alleged enemies of Russia and labeling anyone questioning the party's ideals as a subversive enemy of the state. He's either directly responsible for his death or directly responsible for creating the conditions in which his murder and those of other critics are justified in the pursuit of "greater Russia".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr. Scratch

His leadership has encouraged Russian ultranationalism, sanctioned violence by non-state actors against the alleged enemies of Russia and labeling anyone questioning the party's ideals as a subversive enemy of the state.

 

I'm sorry, I couldn't help it.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Svip

I'm sure the Russians will be discrediting the findings soon enough. Or ignore them completely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
G's Ah's

I'm sure the Russians will be discrediting the findings soon enough. Or ignore them completely.

 

It would be stupid of them to do so. I don't see why they wouldn't try to cover it up because they're not at fault. It's their sock-puppets in Novorossiya that are the ones that killed these people and they're the ones that, if possible, should be brought to justice.

 

Presumably, of course, they'll do something cynical, claim it was an accident and then blame it on the Ukrainians.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moth

I'm sure the Russians will be discrediting the findings soon enough. Or ignore them completely.

Don't the Ukrainians have those systems? There's your proof that the Ukrainians did it!

-RT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Eutyphro

It would be stupid of them to do so. I don't see why they wouldn't try to cover it up because they're not at fault. It's their sock-puppets in Novorossiya that are the ones that killed these people and they're the ones that, if possible, should be brought to justice.

 

Russia provided the movements in east Ukraine with this weapon because recently there had been a Ukranian jet fighter attack on towns there, and the weapons they had in their posession were not able to take out jet fighters. It definitely is their fault, because with proper training and materiel it is possible to analyze the target and identify it as a passenger jet. Russia is responsible for that.

 

In the past accidents like this have happened with Iran Air Flight 655 and Korean Air Lines Flight 007. The US did provide reparations for Iran Air Flight 655, but never apologized. The USSR neither apologized nor paid reparations for taking down Korean Air Lines Flight 007 and claimed it had been a 'CIA provocation'. Probably because the plane went through prohibited airspace in a time of US reconnaissance missions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
G's Ah's

Except there is clear evidence that there were Ukrainian BUK systems stationed in eastern Ukraine prior to the outbreak of hostilities and a system was captured when the base was overrun.

 

The thing is that, prior to 2004 at least, both Ukrainian and Russian Armies relied on conscripts to maintain their standing armies. There'd be a number of people on both sides of the conflict who would have had even basic training on BUK systems, or at the very least on any other kind of air defense system in the Ukrainian arsenal.

 

The militants had already been shooting down Ukrainian ground attack aircraft in the region previously with smaller systems and MANPADS. The BUK was an added bonus which quickly became a liability once MH17 was shot down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Eutyphro

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2014/11/08/origin-of-the-separatists-buk-a-bellingcat-investigation/

This seems to tell us otherwise. Supposedly the BUK system that shot down MH17 was still in Russia near the end of June. Apart from that, there has been eyewitness information that those operating the BUK were Russian soldiers, and that shooting down a passenger jet was due to insufficient equipment and not insufficient training.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sivispacem

I've heard both theories voiced in different circumstances. The US and Ukraine appear to support the notion that it was materiel supplied directly by Russia. The Germans have come out as saying that it was attributed to a missile system captured by the rebels but was transported over the border after the shoot-down. I think the latter is the conclusion which was deemed most likely by the Dutch investigators but I must admit I've not kept track of any more recent developments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Eutyphro

The Dutch investigation is taking quite long and has thusfar only established that MH17 was taken down by a projectile from the outside. It hasn't even established whether it was by a fighter jet or a missile. It is still ongoing. The final rapport is expected before 17 july 2015, so within the upcoming months.

Edited by Eutyphro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sivispacem

If it's a blast-fragmentation warhead (which numerous experts and AFAIK the Dutch authorities have said it is) it isn't likely to be from an aircraft launched missile. They almost solely use continuous-rod warheads as, unlike long range SAMs, they're constrained by the weight of a missile and packing the most power into the physically smallest warhead allows more space for fuel, electronics/ECCM and the like. But by all means wait until the Dutch authorities confirm what absolutely every technical expert in the subject who has voiced a view has said if that makes you happier. ;)

 

http://m.ibtimes.com/mh17-debris-shows-shrapnel-pattern-consistent-surface-air-missile-1635006

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Raavi

There are two investigations both spearheaded by the Dutch. Without completely confirming it as such, the criminal investigation by the JIT into the shoot-down seems to have pretty much concluded the plane was indeed shot down by the BUK. They're now actively searching for witnesses to support the Buk "scenario":

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Eutyphro

If it's a blast-fragmentation warhead (which numerous experts and AFAIK the Dutch authorities have said it is) it isn't likely to be from an aircraft launched missile. But by all means wait until the Dutch authorities confirm what absolutely every technical expert in the subject who has voiced a view has said if that makes you happier. ;)

 

In every post I made I have completely supported the notion that MH17 was taken down by a Russian Buk missile. I also posted a link to documentation proving it was brought into Ukraine near the end of June. But what we were discussing was what the 'Onderzoeksraad' is concluding, and as I have pointed out they still have to finish their research and have only concluded that MH17 was taken down by a 'a large number of high-energy objects that penetrated the aircraft from outside' to be precise, without making a definitive judgement on the specific weapon. I'm not saying that I am unsure what weapon it was, I'm saying the Onderzoeksraad is still in an ongoing investigation and is yet to make their final conclusion public, which will be done in the upcoming months, and will very likely support the BUK narrative.

 

The most recent publication by the onderzoeksraad was a response to a publication by RTL which concluded the Buk scenario. http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/buitenland/evidence-proving-flight-mh-17-was-taken-down-buk-missile

 

Their response was the following:

In the investigation to the accident to flight MH17, the Dutch Safety Board wants to be able to confirm the final conclusion against multiple sources. This is a complex and time-consuming process. As a part of this, the link to the Malaysian Airlines aeroplane has to be demonstrated for each source, in part because the aeroplane crashed in an area of civil conflict.

 

The investigation into the cause of the accident is ongoing and is focusing on many more sources than just the pieces of shrapnel. Additional material for investigation is welcome for this, but it is important that it be irrefutably demonstrated that there is a relationship between any material and the aeroplane that crashed. The Dutch Safety Board will accept any such material and include it in the investigation.

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/onderzoek/2049/investigation-crash-mh17-17-july-2014/onderzoek/1630/reaction-to-dutch-broadcast-rtl-news-about-mh17-investigation#fasen

 

The NOS (Dutch public broadcasting) says the criminal investigation has the same view:

 

Ook het OM vindt het nog te vroeg voor conclusies. "Het strafrechtelijk onderzoek wordt uitgevoerd door een zogenaamd 'joint investigation team', waarin wordt samengewerkt door Nederland, België, Oekraïne, Australië en Maleisië", laat het OM weten.

"Het onderzoek richt zich op het achterhalen van de oorzaak van de vliegramp en het opsporen en vervolgen van degenen die daarvoor verantwoordelijk zijn. Dat onderzoek is nog in volle gang. Het is nog te vroeg om conclusies te trekken."

http://nos.nl/artikel/2025750-onderzoeksraad-we-hebben-meer-bewijs-nodig.html

 

Which is Dutch for the fact that they are still following an ongoing investigation and that making conclusions is too early for them. It is true that they are investigating the BUK narrative with witnesses, but looking for witnesses does not equal a conclusive judgement, which they have not made as they have said in response to the RTL report.

 

Your original post also claimed that the Dutch research concluded "that it was attributed to a missile system captured by the rebels but was transported over the border after the shoot-down." Which is also not accurate, but you had reservations in that post, which you did not seem to have in the next one.

Edited by Eutyphro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sivispacem

I appreciate that- I was merely making the point that the "fighter jet or a missile" comment is somewhat misleading. The fact that they haven't publicly stated this is no longer a line of enquiry does not mean that it's a viable hypothesis any more than MH17 being hit by an asteroid would be. I do understand the need from the Dutch perspective in particular to ensure that every statement made by the official investigators is entirely supported by evidence and subjected to a full and thorough analysis of competing hypotheses. It may not have been established publicly by the Dutch investigators "whether it was by a fighter jet or a missile" but I'd argue that it's been established more generally that the damage seen on the airframe could only have come from a large blast-fragmentation warhead detonated outside the aircraft, unlike those used in air-to-air munitions and very much like those use in mid-long-range surface-to-air missiles.

 

It was an error on my part WRT the latter comment- it was the German Federal Intelligence Service that made the statement, and the German Attorney General who has opened a separate and entirely distinct war crimes investigation into the attack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Raavi

@Euthypro They are not going to appeal for witnesses to step forward to support a completely false narrative like the ludicrous fairytale purported by the Russians, they damn well know the plane was shot down with a Buk missile by the rebels on the tapes, it's been clear from day 1. The evidence is overwhelming. Of course they are not going to come out and shout "we eliminated the bullsh*t narrative the Russians pulled out of their ass and allocated our collective resources to the investigation into the Buk rocket", but if you think that that scenario is really still being seriously considered by the respectable LEO organisations involved in the JIT, you're thoroughly mistaken.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Eutyphro

but if you think that is really still being seriously considered by the respectable LEO organisations involved, you're thoroughly mistaken.

 

It is most likely not being considered anymore, because it is false, but we can only give a fair guess as to what is still considered by now, and this guess does not have absolute certainty and guaranteed accuracy. And even then 'what is being considered' does not equal a public statement and a definitive judgement. My original comment was on what has been stated publicly, and it was not about inferences about what is still realistically being considered.

 

So I agree the jet fighter narrative has no plausibility whatsoever, and I expect in the upcoming months the same will be concluded by the Onderzoeksraad, which I agree is respectable and trustworthy.

Edited by Eutyphro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GKS Sahara

Those HUMVEES from March that got delivered to the Ukrainian army are now operational (with Ukrainian/Russian MG's? on top) headed towards Luhansk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx4heLtx9C8

 

 

'Murica

Edited by Vishnu1111

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Der_Don

'Murica

Lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moth

I'm guessing those Humvees are leftovers from Iraq. They are still painted in tan for christ's sake!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GKS Sahara

I'm guessing those Humvees are leftovers from Iraq. They are still painted in tan for christ's sake!

Most likely, starting this year we're getting rid of them. Replacing them with the JLTV.

jltv_lm_fov_2010_590.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ryanhunter_rfc

I hardly see anything about this anymore. Apart from I heard that two russian soldiers were captured and admitted that they were Russian military. How their military said that they were no longer employed at the time of their arrest.

 

The Russians never fail to amuse me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Raavi

Great video proof of active Russian soldiers' involvement in Ukraine, not that this wasn't abundantly clear already. Definitely worth a watch.

 

 

 

Also Russia is set to increase its nuclear arsenal with 40 more ICBMs. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-33151125

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • 1 User Currently Viewing
    0 Members, 0 Anonymous, 1 Guest

×

Important Information

By using GTAForums.com, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.