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acmilano

Military Crisis in Ukraine

Recommended Posts

Darth Yokel

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26280710

 

EU imposed sanctions on Ukrainian officials. Probably mistake,that's just gonna push them more towards Russia.

Were they supposed to pat them on the back and tell them what a nice job they're doing?

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acmilano

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26280710

 

EU imposed sanctions on Ukrainian officials. Probably mistake,that's just gonna push them more towards Russia.

Were they supposed to pat them on the back and tell them what a nice job they're doing?

 

No,but now they don't have any other way but to turn east.

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Darth Yokel

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26280710

 

EU imposed sanctions on Ukrainian officials. Probably mistake,that's just gonna push them more towards Russia.

Were they supposed to pat them on the back and tell them what a nice job they're doing?

 

No,but now they don't have any other way but to turn east.

The current government wants to turn to Russia. This entire thing started because of that. They can't stay in power, so it doesn't matter what they want.

Edited by The Yokel

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Frank Brown

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26280710

 

EU imposed sanctions on Ukrainian officials. Probably mistake,that's just gonna push them more towards Russia.

Were they supposed to pat them on the back and tell them what a nice job they're doing?

 

 

Sanctions don't only hurt the government. These do, but what next? Economic sanctions? That will push the people the other way. Let's sanction the country that's trying to move towards free trade. That's not contradictory in the slightest.

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K^2

Sanctions are kind of stupid either way, though. All sides in Kyiv are in a fight-or-flight mode right now. Nobody's going to care about sanctions. Various expressions of condemnations or support aren't worthless, but sanctions don't do any more than speeches or addresses at this point.

 

It's all going to come down to whether state of emergency is declared, and how the regions respond to all of this.

 

For these who don't know, Ukraine is a federated republic, with multiple regions that have their own local government. They aren't anywhere nearly as independent as States in the US, but they have some autonomy. Some of the Western regions have all but declared independence from central government. A number of volunteers from these regions have gone to Kyiv, but so far only as an unofficial action. Military stands down throughout Ukraine. Some of the regional commanders in the West have stated that the will not follow criminal orders. At the same time, some of the Eastern commanders have hinted that it's high time the military did get involved.

 

So this can very quickly go from rebellion in the capitol to a civil war between East and West Ukraine. Hopefully, that won't happen, but central government has been doing lots of dumb things lately.

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Frank Brown

Would Ukraine benefit from a national split, East and West Ukraine, maybe something a little less Cold War sounding?

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RoadRunner71

I see the sanctions as a move indirectly aimed to Russia than to Ukraine, trying to take the lead in the conflict. I wonder if the Ukranian Government will deploy the Army...

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K^2

Would Ukraine benefit from a national split, East and West Ukraine, maybe something a little less Cold War sounding?

It'd be bad for everyone. Eastern Ukraine would become satellite state to Russian Federation. Western Ukraine would be cut off economically from a lot of resources, and I'm not sure how much support EU would be willing to offer. Poland would probably be helping them a lot, but it might not be good enough.

 

That said, it's not the worst possible outcome on the table right now. Thing is, unified Ukraine would still be possible with a new central government. Eastern regions would not be rebelling against even a pro-European government. They are pro-Russia, but so long as they are promised that Ukraine isn't going to cut trade relations with Russia, they'll be content. But a quick change of government seems less and less likely. Part of the problem is that opposition has been dragging its feet for way too long. This could have been over in January. But opposition leaders settled for sh*tty deals with official gov't, which the later didn't even hold to. Unfortunately, as I've thought, it looks like opposition leaders are simply there for the political goals, which means they've been applying brakes on any sort of unrest from the start. And Ukrainian people are very pacifist by nature, so they haven't marched on Rada in proper numbers. Security forces were able to stop advance of the more radical groups, and that resulted in a standoff that exploded these past few days.

 

So if the only options left now are a full on civil war or a split, split will be better. Unfortunately, that doesn't resolve the question for Kyiv itself.

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lol232

I seriously have to say that it would be slightly better, if Russians kept the oil closed, than Germans to open it up, but then again, whatever they chose there will be protests.

 

Sounds dumb, and even though I didn't actually support the "SERBIA SHOULD STAY NEUTRAL HURR DURR" politician guy, I'd definitely recommend Ukraine to be like Switzerland, neutral, because East would protest if they go for EU, and the West would protest of they go for Russia.

That's the best possible option in this situation, despite the fact that it's very, very difficult to pull off.

Edited by lol232

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K^2

The only reason Ukraine is trying to get into EU is to break away from Russia. Ukrainians would want nothing more than complete neutrality and independence from either side. Unfortunately, Russia uses a lot of dirty tricks to try and ensnare Ukraine, which pushed a lot of population towards EU as some means of protection from that.

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lol232

The only reason Ukraine is trying to get into EU is to break away from Russia. Ukrainians would want nothing more than complete neutrality and independence from either side. Unfortunately, Russia uses a lot of dirty tricks to try and ensnare Ukraine, which pushed a lot of population towards EU as some means of protection from that.

Well, I don't live in Ukraine so I don't really know. I think Yanukovich or whoever, should just cut ties with Russia and everyone else and start following the Swiss steps. Now I'm not really sure if it's easy or not, but EU or Russia, whichever the Ukraine decides to side with, there will be protest and blood spill.

 

IMO, I actually don't mind if Serbia joins the EU, but there will barely be any benefit so I can't care these, but I'd definitely say no to NATO.

Edited by lol232

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D- Ice

I don't really know much about what's happening in Ukraine except that which I read in a couple of BBC News articles. But from what little I know, it seems this is another attempt of Russian expansionism, with the current Ukrainian Government little more than a puppet to the Kremlin. I just don't know why Russia is continuing to hold such an expansionist foreign policy after the catastrophic collapse of the Soviet Union, and the terrible economic hardship Russia suffered as a result.

 

That said, I am personally really sceptical about protests aimed at overthrowing democratically elected governments, unless they blatantly breach democratic principles or take unconstitutional and/or criminal actions. Disagreements with policies should be taken up at the polls in the next election.

 

I don't quite know when the protestors started calling for the government to step down, and what unconstitutional and criminal actions the government has taken - I'll try to find out more about those. But what I am certain about is that Ukraine's future will be far brighter with the EU, not Russia.

 

A lot of the information in this thread is outdated. Things are changing really fast. There are snipers operating on both sides now, which ramps up the body count fast. The main difference is that Gov't snipers are firing on unarmed persons and even the reporters using armor-piercing ammo. Snipers on the opposition side try to pick out the gov't snipers with variable success. Fortunately, gov't has not seem to be hurrying to move in any more armor since that APC got torched.

Those sound like some very serious developments - especially in a more socially and economically developed European country like Ukraine. Do you know any good sources reporting on recent events there? My mainstay the BBC still hasn't repoted on the snipers and APC yet, and I am really interested in finding out more on this escalating situation. Thanks man.

 

EDIT: Sorry, BBC News is now reporting on Police and Demonstrator Snipers/Shooters:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26280710

Edited by D- Ice

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acmilano

http://www.euronews.com/2014/02/20/bloodiest-day-in-kyiv-eu-announce-sanctions-and-talks-with-president-viktor-/

 

Looks like Yanukovych agreed on elections this year,and Parliament order withdrawal of the Police forces from center of Kiev,so it might be over. Shame that this couldn't happen few days ago,or at least yesterday,before so much blood is spilled. Wish all Ukrainians best of luck,next period will be probably hard.

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poklane

Well, Ukraine is going to sh*t...

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GTA_stu

Saw the snipers shooting the protesters on TV. They even shot a defenceless guy who was only carrying away someone else who had just been shot. It's crazy that in a modern European country like Ukraine, you have a government indiscriminantly killing it's own people. Over 75 people have been killed now since the flare up of violence on Tuesday. Just a thought, but the topic title actually seems a bit redundant in it's current form, maybe it could do without the death toll since that's likely to keep changing.

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poklane

Saw the snipers shooting the protesters on TV. They even shot a defenceless guy who was only carrying away someone else who had just been shot. It's crazy that in a modern European country like Ukraine, you have a government indiscriminantly killing it's own people. Over 75 people have been killed now since the flare up of violence on Tuesday. Just a thought, but the topic title actually seems a bit redundant in it's current form, maybe it could do without the death toll since that's likely to keep changing.

According to rumors, 20 people have died by sniper fire, and they even shot a Medic on purpose (survived after surgery).

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Doc Rikowski

Ukraine throughout history has always been under Russian domination or influence. Political and cultural.

It is obvious that strategically Russia will never let Ukraine slip under Western influence.

The West would do the exact same thing in the same situation.

Look at my country recent history, Italy since 1945,

and you'll see what kind of things can be done to a country to keep it under one side's influence.

But that's another, long, story.

So, resuming, EU and USA have being trying for the past decade, by all means,

to bring Ukraine under their own influence and Russia fought back to keep it under its own influence.

That's what is happening today. Pretty simple.

Of course it's bad only for Ukraine and their people cause they are being gangbanged by both sides.

Ultimately Putin will win this arm wrestle. Got no doubts about that.

Ukraine is way too important for Russia to lose it.

You can't do in there the same you did in Libya or Egypt.

In all of this the worst side is the EU.

As that US diplomat was caught saying "f*ck the EU"...

EU has no importance in world affairs since WWII has ended.

Just pawns and servants in the EU.

 

I would also take all those news reports with a grain of salt.

All these dramatic stories about freedom fighters being sniped and such or about "I'm dying" tweets.

Just remember how much propaganda and misinformation is at work, from both sides, when things get so violent.

Let's not forget the lesson of the Kuwait nurse tale of children being killed in their incubators by Saddam soldiers in 1991.

It was all BS.

 

If snipers are there they are certainly working at creating chaos

and I highly doubt they are government snipers shooting at innocent bystanders.

No government would adopt such suicidal policy.

It is more possible that snipers are from the "opposition" or "foreigners" and are there to spread chaos and rage.

Also, do not forget from where the opposition mainly come from.

As our friend in first page told us they have been training for years.

They come from the same regions that supported the Nazis during WWII.

They are right wing fascists/nationalists.

Historically they have always been used by the West to destabilize and internally fight USSR.

 

No big deal. Cold war never ended.

This is just another chapter.

Take your side if you want but there's no fight for freedom in here, just for power.

And as usual in history all fighters, protesters and soldiers are manoeuvered like puppets on the battlefield.

After all it's a big RL videogame for those in charge. ;)

Edited by Doc Rikowski

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acmilano

Saw the snipers shooting the protesters on TV. They even shot a defenceless guy who was only carrying away someone else who had just been shot. It's crazy that in a modern European country like Ukraine, you have a government indiscriminantly killing it's own people. Over 75 people have been killed now since the flare up of violence on Tuesday. Just a thought, but the topic title actually seems a bit redundant in it's current form, maybe it could do without the death toll since that's likely to keep changing.

Yes, I agree. Mods,could You please change name of the topic?

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Flame

Believe me, the protesters at times worse than the security forces. This spineless thousands of people who run hundreds of bandits, visitors from Western Ukraine (they likely take money from E.U. or opposition, or both). People who have joined the protests can be understood - they are dissatisfied government, because this is awful and stupid government. (Yes, also there are many ordinary people, not thugs and looters.) But protesters simply commit horrible things they give the force of the crowd and atrocities. They demolish the cities. Demolishing monuments. And yes, it's terrible that so many murders were committed on both sides.

The issue of sanctions. European and U.S. officials are not interested in any sanctions. They even not announced against who they make sanctions. In fact, Ukrainian officials fill European countries huge amount of money. Ukrainian officials - are the most influential businessmen of European countries. They do business with the money stolen from the treasury of the country.

 

Should also be noted that most people do not know how to act. They understand that to go to the Maidan - not the best option. They feel helpless.

Do not forget that this is my opinion and it is constantly changing. Events in the country is very complex and difficult to keep track of them.

Edited by flame1251

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poklane

Some radical protesters have said that if the president doesn't step down before 10am/10:00u local time (about 10 hours and 15 minutes from now) they are willing to pick up their weapons again.

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K^2

and I highly doubt they are government snipers shooting at innocent bystanders.

There is live footage of that. There is live footage of people being killed by sniper fire. There are photographs of military issue rifles, the shell casings, the dead people with bullet holes in them.

 

You might want to believe in fairy-land world where such things don't happen, or in Russian propaganda that's been just piles upon piles of bull sh*t from the start, or you can spend half an hour on the net looking through the documenting videos and photos and know what's really going on there.

 

Fortunately, things seem to be winding down now. Parliament has gone over to the side of the revolutionaries. They have voted to return to the 2004 constitution, to release Timoshenko from prison, to return the interior troops to their permanent bases, and met most of the demands of the opposition. There is little left of the ex-ruling Party of the Regions, and latest news claim that the President fled from Kyiv. Right Sector still demands President's resignation, but I don't think that's going to be a problem if he's simply gone and someone else takes up the temporary responsibility.

 

 

Believe me, the protesters at times worse than the security forces. This spineless thousands of people who run hundreds of bandits, visitors from Western Ukraine (they likely take money from E.U. or opposition, or both). People who have joined the protests can be understood - they are dissatisfied government, because this is awful and stupid government. (Yes, also there are many ordinary people, not thugs and looters.) But protesters simply commit horrible things they give the force of the crowd and atrocities. They demolish the cities. Demolishing monuments. And yes, it's terrible that so many murders were committed on both sides.

I'm not going to say that it's a good thing or that I condone it, but what exactly do you expect from an angry crowd?

 

Keep in mind that this has been going on since November. Nobody was destroying buildings or killings cops then. Even now, majority managed to maintain some degree of discipline. But when the government keeps ignoring a protest on such a mass scale, people are bound to turn desperate, and desperate people do despicable things.

 

It is entirely a responsibility of the government not to allow situation to escalate like this. But even more so, it is responsibility of the government to maintain a police force that does not behave the same way. If you feel appalled at how the rebels behaved on the streets, what do you have to say for police officers, organized forces of persons sworn to protect the population, acting in much the same way? Beating defenseless people. Firing on unarmed protesters. Throwing fire bombs into the crowds, for crying out loud. This sort of behavior from the police force is beyond any excuses. A government that allows that has lost any shred of legitimacy it might have hold on to.

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acmilano

Yulia Tymoshenko is out of prison, but Yanukovych is in Eastern Ukraine organising that part of the country for secession. Another country will be distroyed becouse of arrogance of the superpowers. US National Security Advisor Susan Rice warned Russia not to send troops in Ukraine, but olympics are over,who know what could happen now.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/susan-rice-says-russia-should-not-involve-troops-in-ukraine/2014/02/23/374dc380-9cab-11e3-9080-5d1d87a6d793_story.html

Edited by acmilano

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Jimmy_Leppard

Well, Ukraine is going to sh*t...

No, Ukraine is not going anywhere since the damn cave people trashed the whole place and there is nowhere to go, but stay there.

Edited by Jimmy_Leppard

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MarshalMoo

Yulia Tymochenko is a fraud. Just look at this Photoshopped protest image:

MdkOjF7.jpg

The awnless wheat heads are XBox huge, cloned.

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gtamann123

I hope that Ukraine falls into the hands of Russia and it creates a domino effect and the USSR is essentially reformed. Creating a second cold war between the new USSR which is allied with China and North Korea. And The US and the EU. I was never alive during the cold war and want to experience it :beerhat:

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Flame

Real deal in Ukraine: militants (fascists and terrorists) came to power... Right Sector. It is unclear, opposition controls their or they controls opposition. Threatening to ban the Russian language (spoken by half of the country), demolished monuments, burn buildings of alternative parties.

 

In Parliament, in fact, one party. Invaders are appointed each other on positions, vote for themselves, removed from positions all previous leaders.

 

(Hopefully that these militants will dispersed or withdraw from the game.)

 

The president fled. He betrayed his own faction and they refused him. Resist only a few cities.

 

By the way, about people from one of opposition parties (Svoboda, real Nazi...) you can read on this site (for example, leader of Svoboda, he known for outrageous expressions against Jews and Russians, called them "scum") (also read about idols of fascists from West Ukraine like Bandera, and about real heroes).

 

(Maybe be better, if rename this topic in "Situation in Ukraine", "Maidan" or something like this).

Edited by flame1251

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Doc Rikowski

 

and I highly doubt they are government snipers shooting at innocent bystanders.

There is live footage of that. There is live footage of people being killed by sniper fire. There are photographs of military issue rifles, the shell casings, the dead people with bullet holes in them.

 

You might want to believe in fairy-land world where such things don't happen, or in Russian propaganda that's been just piles upon piles of bull sh*t from the start, or you can spend half an hour on the net looking through the documenting videos and photos and know what's really going on there.

 

I didn't say that there were no snipers at all. I just supposed that if they were indeed from the government they certainly weren't shooting at all people randomly like they were in some GTA rampage.

They would probably target the radicals from the Ukrainian protesters. The trained nazi ones.

At the same time it would be the easiest thing to place some false flag snipers to spread chaos.

 

Propaganda comes always from all sides.

One thing is for sure, people that are not there, like you and me, don't know sh*t.

The situation is confused even for the people that are actually in there!

You can browse the web as much as you want but you still won't certainly know what's really going on there.

 

Anyway I have a gut feeling that Ukraine and its people, west and east ones, will end up in deep sh*t thanks to this new chapter of the cold war.

As usual masses have been masterfully manipulated. Here, there and everywhere. ;)

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Sunrise Driver
Real deal in Ukraine: militants (fascists and terrorists) came to power... Right Sector. It is unclear, opposition controls their or they controls opposition. Threatening to ban the Russian language (spoken by half of the country), demolished monuments, burn buildings of alternative parties.

BULLS**T.

1. They aren't nazis or fascists (unlike Yanukovich's crew and supporters). They're freedom fighters and without them (and without Ukrainian people) Yanukevich would still be in power and Ukraine would become another Belarus or, eventually, N Korea.

2. They DIDN'T come to power. Opposition came. Right sector announced clearly that they're keep fighting til' Ukraine is truly free.

3. They won't burn buildings (unlike Yanukovich's militia forces that burned down Trade Union House with ~40 wounded freedom fighters inside).

4. The only monuments being demolished are Lenin's ones. Nothing wrong with this.

Edited by Street Mix

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Flame

Lenin monuments demolished illegally, these are heritage and architectural work, historical monuments, no one has the right to demolish them. Lenin - is a great man and Ukraine owes its existence to him. Ukraine would be nothing without the Soviet Union. What do you think, why demolish monuments to him? Because he is the personification of communism. Namely Red (Communist) Army overthrew the fascist regime. Yet another proof that people from Right Sector (armed men in masks with holes for eyes with weapons) and Svoboda are just Nazi. Residents of all towns, mostly against their demolition (one of proofs). But no one asked the residents, want they or not.

Right Sector - are right-wing radicals, these are real fighters and terrorists. It is possible that in the future they will be removed from the politic scene by they sponsors from EU and USA, because they have done their job and made ​​a coup.

Yes, this is a real coup. Not democracy. Country led to the collapse and I see it with my own eyes. I see it myself, but I do not look through the prism of propaganda.

 

Street Mix, Yanukovich was bad president, he is a thief, a greedy thief, but not a fascist. You can read what fascism. And you have to understand that in your country the Nazis hardly burned down everything and hardly locked locals in villages in houses to burn them, as it was in the Soviet Union, when Nazi Germany attacked it.

 

Let's see what will happen next.

Perhaps the new government will simply steal money, as old, and everything will remain as before (and it was a struggle of bandits with other bandits); maybe will splitting of the country. There are many variants.

Edited by flame1251

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