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Pavlov

Car Talk Topic

Recommended Posts

Tchuck

So apparently American government is going all out on making a push for autonomous cars

 

This thing will have the potential to disrupt so many different industries.

Imagine traffic workers, with autonomous buses, taxis, ambulances.

Insurance companies, since it'll be easier for automakers to sell their own insurance on the machinery, since it drives itself and all.

Without the need for maintenance, what will happen to all the shops?

With cars going electric, many stations will be out of business.

With people not having to worry about driving commuting distances anymore, since they can just hop onto their self-driving car and be on their way, they'll be able to live in more distant places.

 

There's a nice discussion about the subject on reddit, right here.

 

What are your thoughts?

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Average white guy

Not good for enthusiasts. Self-driving cars aren't even in their prime yet and lots of people are already crowing at the death of driving. Not just for themselves, but everyone else on the road. The freedom to drive on the open road will soon be a thing of the past. The normies and their 'our way only' attitude will bring the death of driving.

 

Yea yea I know, we have tracks. Sure we can escape to them, but won't they become boring soon enough? Does mindlessly driving in an oval sound like fun? You'll never get the experience of driving on the open road on a track. Plus what would be the point in owning a car if you could never drive it? As it would just sit and rot away.

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Shaytan

Just me thinking the 2018 Nissan Leaf looks really nice? So far the car looked like a boring egg but now it looks really nice without having the usual EV weird, un-car-enthusiast looks I think only Tesla manged to overcome.

 

I mean, the car still looks like your typical city car but at least not ugly.

 

2018-Nissan-LEAF-2.jpg

Edited by Shaytan

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sivispacem

Front end from the last generation Honda Civic, back from a Peugeot 308 crossed with an Astra GTC

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uNi

On holidays, driving with the wheel on the left felt natural, funny enough driving on the rigth side of the road was weird af.

 

20170907_185655.jpg

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HeavyDuke

On holidays, driving with the wheel on the left felt natural, funny enough driving on the rigth side of the road was weird af.

 

Now try driving with the steering wheel in the middle.

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Svip

Or with the traffic in the middle. Going both ways.

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Shaytan

 

On holidays, driving with the wheel on the left felt natural, funny enough driving on the rigth side of the road was weird af.

Now try driving with the steering wheel in the middle.

 

Rowan Atkinson could give you some tips... err nevermind that

 

 

I wonder if the American government will pronouce about the equivalent of the trolley problem - if an autonomous car perceives an upcoming danger that will likely cause harm to other people and the only way to avoid it is manouvering in such a way that the life of the car's occupants is put in risk, what would it decide? I mean, will they enforce one or another solution or omiss it, leaving the decision to each manufacturer? Personally I never appreciated the utilitarist theory neither enjoy the idea of my own car intentionally putting me in danger, even if to save other people...

 

 

Not good for enthusiasts. Self-driving cars aren't even in their prime yet and lots of people are already crowing at the death of driving.

I see your point and I absolutely agree with you, but unfortunately it's the most likely thing to happen. See: if all vehicles became autonomous, a network could be created so all cars could know each other's movements and act accordingly by predicting the best routes (traffic lights, for example, would be no longer needed). Also, more complex yet more efficient roads could be designed that would otherwise be too complicated for humans to drive on (a considerable ammount of drivers around here can't do things as basic as respecting the rules of a roundabout or driving on the far-right lane on the highway, let alone hypotetical very complex routes with optimized efficiency). Finally, things like max speed could be increased considerably for, again, better efficiency, since the human perception is no longer to be considered.

 

My point is that, if we're walking for a autonomous vehicle revolution, it would make more sense to go "all the way" to take the best advantage of the technology. I think that on suburb/country-level areas it could be allowed for operated cars to continue to circulate, but on big cities and highways prohibiting operated cars would be the most reasonable thing to do.

Edited by Shaytan

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Average white guy

There will have to be some middle ground in which enthusiasts and everyone else can meet. Which like you said, highways, major roads, and downtown areas of big cities being "self-driving only". But beyond city limits, humans still have the legal right to drive themselves around. Even if driving becomes illegal across the entire road network, good luck enforcing it. Back roads are unofficially the "auto enthusiast's playground", where you can do want you want without being seen. So if and when driving becomes illegal, it's obvious where enthusiasts will go. May as well let us have the back roads because we're going to enjoy them anyway.

 

Of course this is decades away, but it never hurts to discuss future possibilities.

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Tchuck

 

I wonder if the American government will pronouce about the equivalent of the trolley problem - if an autonomous car perceives an upcoming danger that will likely cause harm to other people and the only way to avoid it is manouvering in such a way that the life of the car's occupants is put in risk, what would it decide? I mean, will they enforce one or another solution or omiss it, leaving the decision to each manufacturer? Personally I never appreciated the utilitarist theory neither enjoy the idea of my own car intentionally putting me in danger, even if to save other people...

 

How is that handled nowadays with people instead of robots? We make our decision either voluntarily or involuntarily, and then try to explain away why it happened the way it did, and the court deems us guilty or not. I'd imagine something similar would happen but with the added advantage that the software can be patched so that it will avoid the possibility in the future; whereas human beings seldom learn from their incidents in traffic.

 

As for limiting city centers/highways to self-driving only, I don't see why they'd have to do that. I mean, from a technology standpoint, there's no reason to since self-driving cars will behave like regular drivers do, or even better since they'll be able to avoid most of the mistakes and infractions, and will of course account for non-self-driving cars since there will be at least a decade of overlap between them.

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Average white guy

 

 

 

 

As for limiting city centers/highways to self-driving only, I don't see why they'd have to do that. I mean, from a technology standpoint, there's no reason to since self-driving cars will behave like regular drivers do, or even better since they'll be able to avoid most of the mistakes and infractions, and will of course account for non-self-driving cars since there will be at least a decade of overlap between them.

 

I agree, but the argument of efficiency will probably win unfortunately. Now guaranteed, self-driving cars will be able to detect and avoid collisions which will definitely reduce the number of accidents. Hell, the average number of accidents might drop so low that banning human-driven cars won't be necessary. Also, making lane departure warnings, braking assist, and hands-free devices mandatory would also help greatly.

 

We're no where near the transitional period yet, so it's hard to say what will happen. But I do hope that driving won't become a crime within the next 20 years.

Edited by Average white guy

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Svip

[...] will of course account for non-self-driving cars since there will be at least a decade of overlap between them.

If by 'decade' you mean 30-50 years, then sure! Trust me, the transition to a majority of self-driving cars on the roads will take a lot longer than a decade. Even after fully self-driving cars are being offered to the public, you will still be able to buy non-self-driving cars for 10-20 more years, if not indefinitely, because they will be a cheaper option.

 

The idea of self-driving cars will not initially be seen as a necessity, but as a luxury. Not everyone can afford a Mercedes E-class.

Edited by Svip

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Average white guy

The only argument against that is the 'ride sharing' services that could be offered, but... The people who plug that idea constantly don't realize what it would take to run GIANT fleet services. These 'non-existent but soon to exist' services would need millions of various vehicle types to suit their respective local populations. Because most people are not going to share a ride with strangers. So these companies will need a vehicle for every household and them some. That's a f*ck load of vehicles that will need to be kept track of, maintained, and stored somewhere.

 

Millions of cars picking up, dropping off, moving on to the next customer, so on and so forth. To make all of this happen there will probably be more traffic than there is now. Sure they can move faster than human drivers could, but only on highways. In town they would most likely travel at the same speed as human drivers. And yea they could communicate with each other and pass through intersections without stopping. Well actually they would have to stop anyway for pedestrian traffic. Which totally defeats the idea of "no longer stopping at intersections". Unless a foot bridge is built over every intersection, it ain't happening.

 

It would just open up a whole new set of problems. So until self-driving cars are affordable to everyone, full autonomy isn't coming anytime soon.

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Pavle

Someone broke our passenger side window during the night a few days ago. I got outside in the morning and there was nothing left of it. Just pieces of it on the seats inside. Don't really know how or why it happened. Car was even in the yard all night, behind locked gates. Nothing was stolen from it either. It still has the original cassete player radio which no one needs lol.

 

IMG_20170908_071846.jpg

 

 

Though we found a new window immediately and got it replaced.

 

IMG_20170908_144443.jpg

 

IMG_20170908_215501.jpg

 

(yes i was literally vacuuming the concrete because of the millions of tiny pieces of glass to prevent my dog from stepping on them)

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HeavyDuke

Someone broke our passenger side window during the night a few days ago.

Sucks man. Reminds me of back when i had a Fiat Panda, ages ago. I remember seeing glass everywhere and blood as well, even on the cloth interior which was disguisting. They stole my non functioning radio. It didn't even work and i didn't have any money to replace it. Also i remember driving around with one window being replaced with ducktape+transparant foil.

 

Good ol days.

Edited by HeavyDuke

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Original Light

So apparently American government is going all out on making a push for autonomous cars

 

This thing will have the potential to disrupt so many different industries.

Imagine traffic workers, with autonomous buses, taxis, ambulances.

Insurance companies, since it'll be easier for automakers to sell their own insurance on the machinery, since it drives itself and all.

Without the need for maintenance, what will happen to all the shops?

With cars going electric, many stations will be out of business.

With people not having to worry about driving commuting distances anymore, since they can just hop onto their self-driving car and be on their way, they'll be able to live in more distant places.

 

There's a nice discussion about the subject on reddit, right here.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

This video pretty much sums it up well:

 

 

 

I'll also add that as long as the Ford F-series are the best selling vehicle in the U.S.A, I don't think we should be concerned. SUV and truck sales are at all time highs, and those vehicle types are everything autonomous cars aren't. Millions upon millions of vehicles without any V2V technology or autonomous capabilities are being manufactured today. These vehicles will be on the road for at least 20 years. In another 20 years, there will still be millions of non-autonomous cars being made. It'll take another 20 years for those to dissipate.

 

Consumer choice is powerful. Automotive markets can't be artificially created, and it already looks as if the autonomous ride sharing market is going to be over-saturated. I think they're highly underestimating the fact that most people don't like public transportation, and still choose to own a car, even knowing that it's sitting 90% of the time. Even the new Ford CEO said this a few weeks ago, he said he doesn't see the company in a position where car ownership will decline. I could easily take a taxi to go where I want, yet I own two cars. Why? Because I like to work on cars, I like to drive, I like privacy, and I like sanitation. I keep my cars clean.

 

Most taxis are disgusting. In regards to banning driving outright? Good luck. Especially in rural areas. Cops haven't drove down my street in years, and I actually drove this project car I was working on without plates or registration for about a month while a title search was going through. I didn't get caught. Mind you, it was just around the block for a short distance. I could bet in 60 years, I will be able to do the same thing.

 

In all honesty, in my life time, I think we'll start to see some implementation or restrictions. But I highly doubt the government would take all of our licenses and take away people's ability to drive. The public outrage would be too much, not to mention some lobbying from some very powerful groups like SEMA, aftermarket performance part companies, and so on.

 

I live in a very liberal state, Connecticut. Even here, car culture is really everywhere. It's difficult to imagine people being cool with that. Just as I wrote this post, a 1968 Ford Mustang drove by, a 1960's Jeep, and a 2017 Camaro drove by (likely a car show nearby).

Edited by Original Light

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HeavyDuke

So the all new AMG Project ONE was just revealed. Looks like a mix of a Spyker, Lambo and a Ford GT and a bunch of other super cars.

 

mercedes-project-one-le1k.jpg

mercedes-project-one-lek.jpg

Edited by HeavyDuke

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Shaytan

How is that handled nowadays with people instead of robots? We make our decision either voluntarily or involuntarily, and then try to explain away why it happened the way it did, and the court deems us guilty or not. I'd imagine something similar would happen but with the added advantage that the software can be patched so that it will avoid the possibility in the future; whereas human beings seldom learn from their incidents in traffic.

As a programmer yourself, you know that, no matter how complex the code for such situation could be and no matter how many variables are considered by it, in the end it sums up to a series of "if X then do Y". What I mean is, a lot of things go through the head of an human in such situation, it's unpredictable, in fact most likely you'd just act impulsively and not in a rational manner because it would require a reaction too fast for our brain to proccess it logically, on a court they'll always have that in account and what they'll judge from your action is if was it for example if was it caused because you were speeding, you were drunk therefore you took longer to react, and so on.

 

A self-driving car, as being a car driven by a computer, works totally differently. First off, we can only assume the car would not disrespect any traffic rules that could lead to the accident, and so I believe the driver could only be accused if he knew or should've known the car had some damage or malfunction that could lead to such consequence, or the car maker if it was caused by a defect or error. Then, when presented with the imminence of such accident, the AI would immediatly analyse the situation, the multiple manouvers it could perform to avoid it or minimize the damage and the predictable consequences of each one of them (in a way an human could never do, being able to immediatly analyse and calculate stopping distances, probabilities and such). Then, at least until quantum computing becomes available to consumers, the software has to tell the car what to do. You can program it to have thousands of possible outcomes depending of the situation but the programmer has to "tell" the AI what should do in each specific scenario.

 

Now, if, simply put, there's an occupant, there's a guy that's on the middle of the road/ a car crossing the street and a T-bone impact is imminent etc. and we assume the AI car could not be guilty since it's programmed to drive according all the traffic rules all the times, and the only way to avoid the accident is by risking the occupant's life, what would it do? Saying "it does what it considers to be the best solution" isn't a viable answer for the reasons I stated, neither is saying to "act randomnly" (that would be the most dangerous solution IMO), so the code has to lead the software into a solution. Basically, it can't work like us humans do.

 

 

As for limiting city centers/highways to self-driving only, I don't see why they'd have to do that. I mean, from a technology standpoint, there's no reason to since self-driving cars will behave like regular drivers do, or even better since they'll be able to avoid most of the mistakes and infractions, and will of course account for non-self-driving cars since there will be at least a decade of overlap between them.

I didn't meant to say that as something to happen on the next 1 or 2 decades, but in the long term. If self-driving cars became widely available and reliable, there's just no reason not to eventually take that step. If all the cars were self-driven in cities and highways, the whole traffic could move quicker, no traffic lights and other city inconveniences would be necessary (as I suggested, it's possible eventually all cars become connectedon a network, so they could share their movements and coordenate their movements to pass on junctions without having to stop; roads in such places wouldn't have to keep in mind the human compreension (an architect cannot design a road full of confusing junctions that, although more efficient to a particular case, would be hard for an human to take the correct road) and so on. Basically, I believe removing the human error from roads where high efficiency is a constant need when the market has avanced to the point such thing becomes possible would be the best solution to do.

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Tchuck

That's a problem with AI in general; motive.

You wouldn't program the car with exactly what to do in every situation, as that is not viable given the quantity of potential variables and differences.

What you would do instead is use a very advanced form of deep learning and train the car AI in countless situations so that it learns the best way to act in any given scenario. It's what some projects are trying to do, even using GTAV to train AI on how to drive cars.

What you end up with is a system that can more accurately predict potential dangerous situations while driving, and avoid them by taking safe measures, coupled with sensors that can detect things humans wouldn't even notice.

But you also get a system that can't tell you why exactly it did what it did, why it chose to do X instead of Y, and what it took into account when doing so. You wouldn't program it to "minimize damage"; you would factor that in during the AI's training process. How the AI interprets that, would be up to it.

This is already a problem with using AI for other things such as credit approval. The AI will come to a much more accurate conclusion as to the rejection/approval of a request; but this can't be used because a person can't query it to understand why it was denied. The AI takes in so many variables into consideration that it is still impractical to create a system on top of it to give meaning to the AI's conclusions. All we know is the series of neurons that were engaged, and the weights assigned to them.

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uNi

Quick holiday recap:

- Drove my brother's Mazda 323f, it's p fast for an old fart but it does handle like an old fart. I told him he could keep my Punto which was in a better shape, he ended up wasting a lot of money reparing the mazda.

 

- Drove a Nissan Almera, old one, handles like a boat.

 

- Drove a Toyota Aygo hybrid, great handling but in the motorway it feels like you need to go out and give it a push to get it going.

 

- Drove my Punto for a last time before putting into sleep. Fun little car still, kicked the Mazda's ass in the city. I kinda regret killing the car but it spends most of the year just parked outside wasting insurance money.

 

HdxuLzz.jpg

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Veroder

There is no Aygo Hybrid. My guess is you're mixing it up with the Yaris Hybrid? My parents happen to own one of those and I drive it from time to time. It's... Average. At everything. Going up and down hills is fun though. On the A75 in France it became some kind of weird sport to try and get it past a 130 km/h on some of the steeper bits. Meanwhile the engine was vibrating so violently that it felt like it was trying to escape, and sometimes I genuinly wondered if I was standing on one of these:

 

homeRight.gif

 

Oh, and my mother was terrified.

 

g1406897962820158167.jpg

Edited by Veroder

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Pavle

Quick question. I've found a very nice early 80's Golf MK1 for sale, and it is in mint condition. First owner, car was barely driven, and the price is also great. But it has a 1.3 petrol engine, and I've heard that the mpg in those is horrible, especially trough town. My grandfather is going to look at it tomorrow, and he might buy it. Would the mpg be a problem? He barely drives his current car, and when he does it's the same 30 mile drive trough big country roads and such. He just takes the bus to go around town...

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turbocharger

Well it would be. From what I've heard, you shouldn't expect anything below 10 litres in city driving, and if the carburetor isn't adjusted, then expect even more. But since you mentioned he drives mainly on open roads, then it might be worth it considering the condition of the vehicle.

 

Needless to say, would love to see some pictures of it if you have any. f*cking love mint mk1's. There's a beautiful one parked/exposed inside of a Volkswagen dealership in Sarajevo, and it attracts more attention than the new cars around it that are for sale.

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Pavle

Needless to say, would love to see some pictures of it if you have any. f*cking love mint mk1's. There's a beautiful one parked/exposed inside of a Volkswagen dealership in Sarajevo, and it attracts more attention than the new cars around it that are for sale.

IMG_20170923_151142_3.png

 

 

I found it randomly while walking from a car meet. No dents, no rust, no nothing.

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HeavyDuke

I should be painting the fiberglass aero wing in the next couple of days. I've been busy with multiple things the last few weeks for some quick $ which came at a cost of losing some spare time. However the new fiberglass wing is pretty much 95% done. Strong as a suftboard, light as hell.

Edited by HeavyDuke

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Zyo

 

Needless to say, would love to see some pictures of it if you have any. f*cking love mint mk1's. There's a beautiful one parked/exposed inside of a Volkswagen dealership in Sarajevo, and it attracts more attention than the new cars around it that are for sale.

 

 

I found it randomly while walking from a car meet. No dents, no rust, no nothing.

 

 

Yes, absolutely.

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Pavle

 

 

Needless to say, would love to see some pictures of it if you have any. f*cking love mint mk1's. There's a beautiful one parked/exposed inside of a Volkswagen dealership in Sarajevo, and it attracts more attention than the new cars around it that are for sale.

 

 

I found it randomly while walking from a car meet. No dents, no rust, no nothing.

 

 

Yes, absolutely.

 

so uh

 

it actually is rusty

 

the bottom of the car is covered in cheap kits and stuff

 

but i did find something very nice for sale and am going to check it out in a few days. should be better.

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Zyo

Thats a shame. Id love a cheap clean old mark one for puttering about in. I used to have a Mk II and it was one of my favorite cars that I have ever owned.

Edited by Zyo

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InstaNoodles

I found this car on Craigslist and the ad also had a picture of the car's engine. Low and behold, it has an aftermarket turbocharger, but the ad's description doesn't mention the turbo.

If I get the car, do I need to do anything to the car if I remove it? Is it worth removing a turbo? Financially, I can't afford to replace a turbo if it brakes, and personally I don't like them at all. I'm a restorer, not a modifier.

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sivispacem

What car?

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