The Concept Creators' Lounge

[wise_man]

3 hours ago, universetwisters said:

This here's the latest episode of my animations that I'm very proud of because I got Chris Hansen from TO CATCH A PREDATOR to voice act in and my Vice City mod that takes place in the "real world" has some recent progress in my workshop from the last page onward. I haven't made a thread for it yet, at least until much more is done.

Bro, how the hell you manage to get someone like Chris Hansen to voice your works?!

[universetwisters]

Just now, wise_man said:

Bro, how the hell you manage to get someone like Chris Hansen to voice your works?!

I paid like 140 on Cameo. It was well worth it though! I'm sure other GTA folks are on cameo. I know Steven Ogg is

[The Coconut Kid]

12 hours ago, universetwisters said:

All I know is that I can't wait to get more stuff done with it

Honestly, my dude, all I need to hear is that you’re having fun, you’re genuinely interested in your project and you can’t wait to get done. This is what matters above all else.

I’m not at all knowledgeable about modding to contribute much more, but for clarity: to me a concept has been like a proposal or an argument. Maybe because it’s I’m an old bastard from the London Dossier days. They are a case for what could be. They are also now top-tier narratives that stand on their own.

It’s been confusing to me to hear you refer to “I’m thinking about making a GTA fan concept,” when you’ve already gone past the proposal stage and actually have a project up and running. It’s felt like a backwards step you don’t need to take, you know what I mean? But if you’re looking to make a thread here or a Wiki with all the soundtrack, cars and bells as kind of a companion piece, go right ahead. That’ll be great.

 

6 hours ago, universetwisters said:

I paid like 140 on Cameo. It was well worth it though! I'm sure other GTA folks are on cameo. I know Steven Ogg is

Please tell me the great David Soul is on there and you’ve gotten the goods?

And is it gonna send you into too much of a frenzy if I tell you I’ve planned to reference his character in The FBI Murders for a character in VC Origins?

[universetwisters]

4 hours ago, The Coconut Kid said:

It’s been confusing to me to hear you refer to “I’m thinking about making a GTA fan concept,” when you’ve already gone past the proposal stage and actually have a project up and running. It’s felt like a backwards step you don’t need to take, you know what I mean?

Yeh I completely get it. But for me, having another thing to do (even if it’s a gta fan idea thing while I’m currently doing real life mods and other crap) is just another fun thing to do and a further reason to procrastinate on home repairs

 

I checked for David Soul on cameo but sadly I couldn’t. Michael Gross isn’t there either so I guess they have better things to do than make fools of themselves for cash. Maybe when my tax return comes in I’ll get CHRIS HANSEN to reenact the infamous pinball machine from that dumb movie :V

[wise_man]

2 hours ago, wise_man said:

I want to tell my perspective about it. I'll continue in the Lounge because that's the perfect place for this kind of discussion.

Continuing the discussion as promised... Let's do it here instead so everyone can share everything in their head openly (without limiting the discussion to context of other concepts).

 

What are you guys thought of writing female characters? to be exact female protagonists? There's been similar discussion on page 26 of this Lounge, you can read that first. Just tell everything from your concept creator creativity perspective. We're not gonna spend times to debate about crime statistics or unrealistic or bla-bla like in other female protagonists thread in this forum.

 

I personally think that theme matters. Writing a female is never as straightforward as the claims "write a character then make it female", especially when writing a crime-themed stories. There has to be good reasons. Will it fit with the narrative? Will it fit with the theme? Will it go all the way to enhance the narrative and theme? If the answer is no, then it's more of a shoehorning. Like how people say Franklin is in GTA V just for the sake of catering to CJ's fans, and I'm kinda agree with it. Remove him, and the story is still about two aged bank robbers arguing an old conflict.

 

@The Coconut Kid has ideas of making Vida Negro and Ashley Butler stories in the past, @universetwisters has one too on his project, @kobeni also has a couple like Mona in Borders. But let me tell about mine first.

 

As bonus, so this post isn't too bland.

 

Maria Vinogradova pops up in my head actually before I decided to make Light & Shadow a confidence-themed concept. The funny thing is, back in 2018, it was merely a random stereotypical idea, for the sake of having each protagonist unique. I didn't even know there are many Russians in Miami when I started it . But I never feel her to be that interesting, I feel like it's only the fact that she's a female that made her unique. That is until I inject a manipulation theme into L&S, that's when I see many possibilities for her.

 

Even if I had restarted the entire project from the zero back then, it would still feature a protagonist like Maria. Manipulation theme will support a female protagonist unlike anything else. Women being manipulative has been an old, classic trope that's still relevant today. And it makes sense in real-life with frequent cases of honeytrapping around the world. That's not limited to the sphere of international espionage, but traditional crime world too with people using pretty women as lure to steal, kill, or deceit. Couple of arguments from old, locked "protagonist gender" debates said the same thing, such as this one.

 

This is where Maria actually becomes unique. She's being a female is not the only unique selling point. The other one is that she's being a female also represents the L&S's theme very well.

 

If I cut her, the story won't be as good. I can explain all about how confidence tricks work with Thomas alone, that was I planned for Hustler of L.V. cancelled reboot. But then it feels incomplete. I think it's not enough to explore the entirerity of manipulation theme with just one usual conman. I don't want to only show money scams, too boring, I want to show how people also use sex and fear for scams. Of course I can "relegate" her as a companion/partner for Thomas or Cesar, but it's way more innovative to provide this kind of character a center stage.

 

Maria is inspired by many characters, fictional and real-life. I'm now pretty much basing her to Stacie Monroe in Hustle, a hustler who's often using her appeal during the team's con; like in S4E1 where the team uses her as a fake honeytrap to scam the mark. And then there are more real-life influences, from ''Katia'' Zatuliveter, who dated Mike Hancock so she can infiltrated the British parliament; to Anna Chapman, the spy turning celebrity after release. I obviously don't want to make Maria a deep cover Russian spy like Jennifer Lawrence in Red Sparrow, so I make her a spy who infiltrates the VC Bratva in order to protect the interest of other Bratva members.

 

More trivia, the choice of Maria's actress, Aleksandra Bortich, is kind of random. I spent some time just searching for Russian actresses and ended up finding Sasha. Her looks give me me immediate impression of mystery, like she can be your best friend or worst enemy the same time, exactly what I'm looking for. Her filmography isn't impressive, mostly just comedies (and some Russians also call out her acting, is it true @Ivan1997GTA?), but I can't think of better choice.

 

End of my line.

Edited January 31 by wise_man
why do I write wiki?

[kobeni]

The concept itself is far from done, but I'll share some snippets of some of the pirate stations in GTA: Gusenberg. If you're a fan of the overall vibe and soundtrack of GTA 1/2/3/LCS and maybe the first Saints Row game, you're probably gonna love it.

 

Osmosis FM (Live/Tape Mix)

 

Future Trip FM (Mix 2)

 

X-Stasie FM

 

Tektonik FM (Mix 1)

 

[universetwisters]

Truth be told @wise_man, as thought out and intricate as your post is, you’re gonna hate my response. You’re gonna hate it so much you’ll want to strangle me, burn my house down, and kick my kids out of an open window. 
 

I know it’s very anecdotal, but I’ve been around so many women with sh*tty morals and internal standings (my high school ex was a white supremacist who had pretty sticky fingers wherever she went for example) that automatically, my first thing I think of whenever I go to write a character is how sh*tty of a person they are in the first place before I even think of a gender or socioeconomic status for them. I know it’s anecdotal and if you’ve never been around chicks like that you’d think I’m just pulling stuff out of my ass so I understand if you’re skeptical tbh but with me, I’ve had enough experience with people like that to where it’s believable for me. While you’re getting into TO CATCH A PREDATOR, look up David Schumacher and Cody Green. They both have auras of just total sh*ttiness around them that, even if you don’t know they’re showing up at a house to rape a child, you can tell they would steal a car or stick up a dope dealer without a second thought.

 

Also to bring up the project I’m working with, (I’m guessing you mean my vice city mod set in the “real world”? If not then too bad lol I’m gonna reference it)  it can show how mental illness and a lack of any real goal in life can turn someone into a criminal. Do you remember how, about fifteen or twenty years ago, the news and politicians and lawyers tried to say that video games were the root of all evil and should be blamed for corrupting the youth of America? Despite that hysteria, there’s still quite a few people who genuinely believe that (Devin Moore for example, if I’m spelling his name right) and, despite more anecdotal examples, you can’t deny that there’s folks out there who believe that, or who are influenced by any video game or movie they see. Hell I used to be friends with an autistic guy who thought real life was GTA and after committing battery, I wouldn’t be surprised if GTA, or at least being desensitized to violence via GTA played a part in it. Aimlessness too, it’s a common issue in many folks just coming out of high school who have no real ambition or goals. Ever hear the phrase “You aim at nothing and you’ll hit it every time?” Sadly that’s very much true in many cases. They’re old enough to know stealing cars or selling drugs is bad but they just don’t care, one thing leads to another, and you have a docket the size of a phone book before you’re 40.

 

And even then, let’s be honest with ourselves, it’s GTA. If a scrawny plain guy can pull a big fat dude out of a car with no issue, or patch up a dozen bullet wounds with a hot dog or a can of soda, I doubt that a chick doing any of those things would make those chain of events any less realistic

[palmtreegoblin]

AI is... uh... powerful. I've been toying with the idea of doing a Carcer City concept for a while. I've been messing around with stuff to help me flesh that idea out.

 

An undercover cop that becomes engulfed into the underworld and lifestyle he's supposed to combat. Slightly tropey... but I don't know.

 

 

Maybe I'll do it.

[The Coconut Kid]

8 hours ago, wise_man said:

What are you guys thought of writing female characters?

Fantastic.

 

8 hours ago, wise_man said:

to be exact female protagonists?

Also fantastic! I’m all here for this. But it’s unlikely to be something I undertake for a concept.

 

Let me go back to this for a second:

 

13 hours ago, The Coconut Kid said:

...if you’re a fan of Lorna, ask me about behind the scenes content...

So here’s some fun trivia. It’s 2014 and I’m about two weeks out from posting VI: Vice. I have everything set up except a concrete storyline. I have cycled through two or three stories and I have decided that I dislike all of them – they’re just not working. But I need something.

There are short stories I’m working on at that time. I decide that one of them might actually be a good fit. I borrow the story. It involves two main characters whose stories converge: a seasoned career-criminal who is coerced into working for corrupt detectives and a hooker who investigates the sudden disappearance of the underage runaway she has taken under her wing. Those two characters? Ariel Gara and Lorna Steele.

What I do next is throw these two and their supporting characters (Cherry Jones and Maddox – Silk and Mendoza) into a blender with some cocaine cowboys. Whoosh! The end result is the basic cast of VI: Vice.

It kind of works until it doesn’t. There is a sudden shift where I try and merge the two and I don’t quite pull it off. The premise of the short story is actually much better. The supporting cast is leaner and operates much better when it isn’t shoehorned into the GTA universe. Many of them were influenced by people I knew.  

The inspiration for Lorna was drawn from a friend of mine. She works well as a protagonist in written crime fiction. She would not work well as the protagonist of my GTA concept. GTA and its conventions are quite challenging for me to write within. I struggle to move back-and-forth between the two. It’s a different type of crime fiction – one that 90% of the time is expected to progress from A to B with excessive and cartoonish violence. This is not how I’m used to writing my women.

I know this is a difficult argument to make and I’m conscious I don’t make it well. The purpose of concept writing is to kind of reconfigure the traditional formula around your interpretation of what Grand Theft Auto could or should be - am I right? What should stop me grounding GTA in the harsh realism of drug addiction and sex work? It’s more reflective of my limited skillset as a writer-creator that I don’t feel comfortable to merge the two.

 

@universetwisters has hit upon a similar point. I think, as men writing women, it’s easy to be confined to our own personal niche. You want to do it right so we stick to what we know. You write from the women you know and have known and measure your characters against them. I cross-reference with friends where possible – with Mrs. Coconut when Mrs. Coconut is in the picture. I have found that when you draw from experience, it keeps you accountable. It lends extremely well to how you round characters out and it demands that you maintain a level of respect.

 

It’s certainly possible to build a GTA concept based upon my niche of sex work and addiction. And experience certainly enriches the characters you populate stories with – not just in terms of sex workers and drug addiction but the broader world you build. But what makes a great reference point for a written narrative doesn’t necessarily serve the end goals of Grand Theft Auto. I would rather operate on my own terms as far as creating and writing female protagonists are concerned.

 

It’s important to close by saying this why I have so much respect for what you’re striving towards with Light & Shadow and Maria. You’ve essentially achieved all of the above. You have reconfigured the traditional GTA formula into something that elevates intelligence and manipulation. You’ve designed an environment that is favourable to the traits of your leading woman. Much respect.

[universetwisters]

13 minutes ago, The Coconut Kid said:

I think, as men writing women, it’s easy to be confined to our own personal niche

 

Imagine writing a protagonist but their only qualities are the kind of person you want to have sex with 

[The Coconut Kid]

8 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

Imagine writing a protagonist but their only qualities are the kind of person you want to have sex with 

James Gandolfini is a handsome man handshum pershun.

Edited January 31 by The Coconut Kid
Gabagool

[kobeni]

2 hours ago, universetwisters said:

 

Imagine writing a protagonist but their only qualities are the kind of person you want to have sex with 

I think theyre called mary sues

[Datalvarezguy]

11 hours ago, universetwisters said:

 

Imagine writing a protagonist but their only qualities are the kind of person you want to have sex with 

David Cage.

[Akaviri]

What image-hosting service are you all using in 2023? I have reached the point where I'm willing to bite the bullet on a paid subscription. Currently using IMGBB and they have a great interface, but the site seems to go down at random some days. Not sure that upgrading with them would even help that.

[universetwisters]

2 hours ago, Akaviri said:

What image-hosting service are you all using in 2023? I have reached the point where I'm willing to bite the bullet on a paid subscription. Currently using IMGBB and they have a great interface, but the site seems to go down at random some days. Not sure that upgrading with them would even help that.

Imgur!!!!!!!

[Datalvarezguy]

2 hours ago, Akaviri said:

What image-hosting service are you all using in 2023? I have reached the point where I'm willing to bite the bullet on a paid subscription. Currently using IMGBB and they have a great interface, but the site seems to go down at random some days. Not sure that upgrading with them would even help that.

Same as uni, still poormaxing and using a mixture of imgur direct links and discord image links (and the later I know will stop working eventually so I have to phrase out.

[wise_man]

On 2/2/2023 at 12:28 AM, Akaviri said:

What image-hosting service are you all using in 2023? I have reached the point where I'm willing to bite the bullet on a paid subscription. Currently using IMGBB and they have a great interface, but the site seems to go down at random some days. Not sure that upgrading with them would even help that.

I use postimages, though this is mainly because I can't register into Imgur with my country's phone number (and I'm too lazy to follow any trick/strategy to bypass it). The UI is not as fancy as Imgur or Imgbb. But that doesn't bother me because I use it just so I can post pictures for this forum.

 

It's a shame that pictures from Wiki/Fandom cannot be simply copied-pasted here. Think of how convinient if it was possible.

[E Revere]

So I'm going to come in here without any clothes and ask a very stupid question. How do you guys do it?

 

Some of the struggle of coming up with things to write for me is my lack of hands-on experience with the criminal underworld (how shocking)

 

My earliest concepts were all very basic because I don't really understand how criminal organizations, the illegal drug trade, embezzlement, prostitution etc. actually really work. I'm only writing what makes sense in my head, probably not a lot. Writing something senseless isn't the bad thing, it's the lack of creativity. A lot of crime fic writers can come up with some very intricate stuff because I guess they understand it better than I do. I do a fair share of research both through crime fiction and real crime histories and of course reading the news stuff but I'm not seeing an upward curve when I try to come up with stuff.

 

So how do you guys come up with the stuff your thugs and bad guys do?

Edited February 5 by E Revere

[kobeni]

2 hours ago, E Revere said:

So how do you guys come up with the stuff your thugs and bad guys do?

I'm no expert, but I think taking elements from a lot of non-crime sources like other video games, your favorite films and comics/manga to more intellectual stuff like Greek tragedies, stage plays, and even philosophical essays/treatises/novels from people like Camus, Dostoevsky and Nietzsche would really help make your stuff more unique.

 

Dan Houser for example takes a lot of his style and references from his favorite novels and films which feature a lot of non-crime along with the regular crime stuff. Bronte in RDR 2 for example was very likely named after Emily Bronte who wrote Wuthering Heights and Arnaud in TBOGT who's based on a character in an obscure James Salter novel, not to mention a lot of the mission names throughout RDR and GTA which are named after different books and films that I presume he really likes.

Edited February 5 by kobeni

[universetwisters]

10 hours ago, E Revere said:

So I'm going to come in here without any clothes and ask a very stupid question. How do you guys do it?

 

Open your closet and put something on unless you wanna get banned from the mall for life

 

For real tho I live in a state full of scummy bummy like these so it's not impossible to imagine them getting involved in robberies, etc. so it's not entirely difficult to pull from real life into writing prompts. Especially if they're wannabees like the aforementioned scummy bummy people like in this video, a lot of the crap I write has some humor silly twist so it's always fun imagining posers trying to square up with the real guys who actually know what they're doing.

 

 

Another easy thing to do is to look at the city you want the story to take place in, see what kind of gangs and crimes are prevalent there, and go from there.

[The Coconut Kid]

11 hours ago, E Revere said:

So I'm going to come in here without any clothes and ask a very stupid question. How do you guys do it?

Apologies in advance if this post is excessive. But I like you and I like your stuff – and this is a brave question I have wanted to ask many times myself.

 

Put your clothes back on and pull up a chair.

 

The first thing, above all else, is this – your characters are people first and criminals second.

 

I see that you’re from Mars. But I dunno – you seem pretty human to me. Stand up and take stock of yourself. How do you hold your head? Chin up, down? What about your shoulders? Your natural stance with your feet? Where are your hands? Are they in your pockets or out in front of you? Where would they be when you’re talking to someone? How would those hands and feet be positioned if you suddenly find yourself in a confrontation with someone?

 

These are all things that I’m taking in about you when I’m looking at you. We carry so much of our life experiences in how we carry ourselves – our walk, our posture, our gestures. Some broadcast friendliness and openness. Some communicate danger. Start here and ask questions to build a profile. What can you tell about what someone does for a living by the way they hold themselves? How quick are you to judge someone by what they look like? What do little details tell you about the intentions someone has and the experiences they’ve lived?

 

The best way to break out of a rut here is to go outside and be around people. This is the experience you want – forget about books and television. Make sure you’re doing this clothed or we’re going to be following up on this conversation through plexiglass. The little details in your environment are going to inspire your settings. The people in them will be your background characters. The beautiful people will be your eye candy. The hustlers will inspire your schemes. The weathered-faced man in the bar with the huge shoulders and the biro-ink python on his arm will be your tough guy. Take a notepad or your phone and write this stuff down.

 

You can do this with television. I know it isn’t always possible to go outside and meet with people. But play the game this way – watch The Sopranos with the sound off and observe the characters only by their mannerisms and how they react to each other. Create back stories for them like you don’t already know their characters. See what you come up with.

 

But I used to log in here to write and read to wind down after work. Those days were all about catching up with Family Ties and writing IV: London. I remember writing this after a work shift and being very proud of it – especially how it forced @Akaviri into taking a shower. The basis for most of it came from walking towards the taxi rank from the nightclub I worked at. See, I had never been to Southend - kind of like how you’ve never been to 1959. But I needed to fill in a nightlife scene where Raymond Caine struts through (as only he can) and sizes up his surroundings (like the predator he is). So I drew from my own – drunken brawls, hugs and tourists giving me money: lock, stock, the f*cking lot. The bouncer ended up being Scouse because my offsider on the door at the time was from Liverpool. The police van problem came to feature in the mission because we were a couple of doors down from the cop station. Terry Wolfe was kind of an oddity because you don’t get those blokes in nightclubs much any more. But you get characters.

 

These are the people you need to find. You can find them in books or you can pluck them from newspapers – but they stick better when you draw them from your life. This can sometimes be tricky – there are characters I’ll sometimes write and never write them again because... life. But it can also be very fun.

 

I shopped around for an aged wiseguy who would later become the character Vic Conti. This was a challenging process. I only intended to have the one mobster in my concept. They had to hit and they had to hit hard. One of our frequent guests was a man in his late sixties. He looked straight out of central casting for a mobster – tell an agent you’re looking for a wiseguy and they’ll come back with this motherf*cker with a cigar in his mouth. He liked to shake hands at the door – both hands and they grip like a vice – and would come up with them outstretched so you can see his cufflinks and his jewellery. He does not say hello. He just nods and moves past – like being told “no” is not in his lexicon. He is short and has blocky square shoulders. His face is all nose and that nose points everywhere but straight. I can see that he is not used to being told no. There were times I’d see him take off one of his watches or bracelets and offer them to much younger women. He would adjust his jet-black toupee when he thought no one was watching.

 

The funny thing – this guy actually turned out to be ‘connected.’ His name came up in a newspaper connected to the local ‘ndrangheta when I researched a project local to me. But I knew ten steps earlier what he was about from how he carried himself and what his appearance broadcast about his lifestyle. He was physically the basis of Vic Conti. I built all of this into him. Build observations into your characters! You don’t need to literally tell me that your character is powerful. You want to demonstrate that through their actions and their habits. This is what brings them to life. It makes them humans before they are criminals but it also never lets you forget what they are all about.

 

There is a second part of this that is concept specific – find actors [or “face” pictures] that make your characters sing. Choose people who look the part. See them in their roles when and where you can. The second piece of the puzzle came together for the character of Vic Conti when I happened upon the actor Frankie Gio. It’s important that when you Google pictures of someone you’re planning to use in your concept that you take a second or two to read their biographies – those little notes that pop up on Wikipedia or IMDB. Frank Gio, I learned, was a Bronx-born ex-heavyweight boxer turned actor. He turned actor with two or three guys who picked up the craft from acting classes in prison – Tony Sirico and Richard Foronjy. I began to wonder how the character might talk and act if I had him on my shoulder when I wrote – kind of like how Rockstar built in so much of Ned Luke’s life experiences for Michael De Santa. Things like this can not only elevate your characters but they also ground you and keep you accountable. You are writing Salvatore Leone. Take a look around at stories of Frank Vincent and see what you can pick up that you could carry over to the way you write Sal. You don’t have to make him a drummer. You don’t even have to give him a killer afro. But take note of some of the life experiences, where possible, that the man himself drew upon for his many characters.

 

11 hours ago, E Revere said:

Some of the struggle of coming up with things to write for me is my lack of hands-on experience with the criminal underworld (how shocking)

This doesn’t put you at a disadvantage at all. I would call it an advantage. You’ll be curious. You’ll ask questions. Experience is actually a double-edged sword. It can confine you to a niche and can smother your creativity. But again – it helps to use yourself as a reference here. Measure yourself against the characters you’re writing. They are criminals but you are not. Why are you not a criminal and they are?

You don’t have to answer and elaborate. But think about it privately. I’m happy to declare that I am a migrant. I have experience of arriving in a country with that migrant work-ethic. But I have never migrated to a country as a Cuban or a Haitian. My passage into the country was to flash my visa at a check-in desk – theirs were detention camps and tent cities after arriving by boat and raft. There are differences we need to be conscious of – our own position to the characters we’re writing. Rockstar themselves in their Vice City days often failed miserably at this - which is surprising for two blokes who have been on the tit of private education all of their lives. When you don’t know things: cross-reference with people and research. Bring in collaborators with background knowledge. When you fill in the gaps yourself, from your own imagination, ask yourself why you’re thinking that way about certain characters. Try and make it consistent with accounts and life experiences you research and read about.

 

11 hours ago, E Revere said:

My earliest concepts were all very basic because I don't really understand how criminal organizations, the illegal drug trade, embezzlement, prostitution etc. actually really work.

Don’t worry about this. You don’t need experience. But you should aim to possess an opinion – a stance – that you can write from and give purpose to these characters.

 

Prostitution is wrapped up in power dynamics. Everything is an exchange of power. You want your sex workers to be powerful. They are both fighting for control of their lives while they are surrendering it. The first demand is always that the money is paid up front. The money is counted while the client strips off and showers. The client has [typically] been “screened” [background checked] to even get to this point and a prior meeting in public is preferred. They need references and they need identification. They have been checked against a database of offenders self-reported by other sex workers both local and interstate. But they still cannot be sure that the 100kg bloke alone with them in the room is not going to turn and crush their neck. Their only security is a bracelet rigged to bluetooth, worn somewhere there is the best chance of it being reached, that will send an alert to someone stationed nearby. They can’t go to the cops because the law says what they are doing is illegal. They can’t declare their earnings for the same reasons and must get creative with how they spend and invest.

And all of this assumes high-end sex work – the street is a whole different ball game. This is getting into a car with no background check for a fraction of the price and an immense proximity to danger. Words that will always remain with me until the day I die are, “Write down those numbers [vehicle license plate] and have money for the phone because if I am not back in an hour you will be telling the police I am dead.” This still upsets me and this is the position that I write sex workers from. Make a note of how it makes you feel. This feeling is where you will write about prostitution from.

The same can be said about the drug trade. You can see it as a surrogate economy where globalisation has decayed and destroyed former industrial economies. You can see dealers as entrepreneurs. They graft no different to the kid serving you McDonalds. It is the family trade passed from father to son [and mother to daughter] with a skillset to match. You can also see drugs as a poison and those who trade in them as the scum of the earth. It is up to you to populate those worlds with people who reflect how you feel about them.

Take sex work. You know there is a worker and they must market themselves – so how and where? And to whom? These places become part of your setting. You know – you hope – there has been a background check and that there is a network of other sex workers maintaining a database. You know there is money being exchanged and it has to be handed to someone. You know it can’t be spent without raising attention so there is a whole process the money will have to through before it is returned to them. These connections are your basic characters: sex workers, the investigator, the driver and assistant, and someone in the wings to handle the finances. Interactions with these characters are how you convey the personality of your protagonist and generate the dilemmas they must face. How they overcome these dilemmas is the basis of character development. You can apply this process to any character from any walk of life.

You don’t have to arrive at this knowledge through lived experience. You can take a few steps back and ask those questions. Do your research. Be ethical and privilege the first-hand experiences of sex workers/drug dealers/mobsters over documentaries and articles about them.

 

11 hours ago, E Revere said:

A lot of crime fic writers can come up with some very intricate stuff because I guess they understand it better than I do. I do a fair share of research both through crime fiction and real crime histories and of course reading the news stuff but I'm not seeing an upward curve when I try to come up with stuff.

Hard disagree!

I have been in the position of not being able to do anything else except pass time with books. There is some absolute dross out there. Let me tell you – most of the content is written as well or better than published crime fiction. It’s why I still check in here!

A lot of these guys also have millions of dollars behind them and a free hand to take six-twelve months to turn over a script. Creative concept writing is a complete hobby. I haven’t previously been well-read. It’s only recently that I received a formal education - and the foundation of that education was often built here. Don’t measure yourself against books and movies and television series.

Final note – the great thing about this creative community is that it is very friendly to mistakes. It’s a learning experience. You’re already on board with collaborators, so you know this yourself. People will help you out where you ask and all that will be asked of you is that you show up for them in return.

Don’t take this post as a list of requirements that you must meet. You don’t have to adhere to them to write things! Think of them as tools to have fun with. It doesn’t matter if you go the direction of research or meeting and observing people – just make sure it is a rewarding experience for you.

[E Revere]

@The Coconut Kid You've said some great things. Thanks for the response.

[The Notorious MOB]

10 hours ago, kobeni said:

I'm no expert, but I think taking elements from a lot of non-crime sources like other video games, your favorite films and comics/manga to more intellectual stuff like Greek tragedies, stage plays, and even philosophical essays/treatises/novels from people like Camus, Dostoevsky and Nietzsche would really help make your stuff more unique.

 

Dan Houser for example takes a lot of his style and references from his favorite novels and films which feature a lot of non-crime along with the regular crime stuff. Bronte in RDR 2 for example was very likely named after Emily Bronte who wrote Wuthering Heights and Arnaud in TBOGT who's based on a character in an obscure James Salter novel, not to mention a lot of the mission names throughout RDR and GTA which are named after different books and films that I presume he really likes.

I would agree with this. Just write what you're familiar with and don't just try to be a crime expert if that's not your forte. Some people use life experience, whereas others inject influences from other things that they know. This is what makes people unique on here and oftentimes makes things enjoyable. In the 3D era you can get away with bare bones and often cartoonish representations and things can be a lot more cliche. If you don't feel comfortable doing the more intricate and nuanced style storytelling then just find your comfort zone and have fun with it. This shouldn't be a chore.

[wise_man]

I think pretty much everyone have given clear enough thoughts here.

 

Well, I admit that while I'm really interested with organized crime, most of time, I don't enjoy the process of going deep into one through medias and news too. I like the Italian mob, but don't like to watch movies about one. I like Latin drug cartels, but don't like to start watching Narcos all the way from episode one. I have things in RL too, and I know that I can't do this background checks and inspiration taking all the times.

 

So I just scratch the surface. Taking relevant information that are currently in my head and write it down. Then go to research just the slightiest stuffs that can support it. Like what do I do when writing Barattieri Family? I just read a single wikipedia article and watch one documentary (I don't even finish it). I don't need to know everything about the Trafficante. I can mention that Trafficante was once involved in conspiracy of assassinating President Kennedy, but that's all I need to remember. I don't need to go deeper into learning the 5W+H of the conspiracy because their story in my concept took place almost 50 years after the event.

 

Learn gradually, start with smallest and simplest information of what you need now, not what you need later. Knowledge will eventually pile up.

Edited February 5 by wise_man

[The Notorious MOB]

54 minutes ago, wise_man said:

I think pretty much everyone have given clear enough thoughts here.

 

Well, I admit that while I'm really interested with organized crime, most of time, I don't enjoy the process of going deep into one through medias and news too. I like the Italian mob, but don't like to watch movies about one. I like Latin drug cartels, but don't like to start watching Narcos all the way from episode one. I have things in RL too, and I know that I can't do this background checks and inspiration taking all the times.

 

So I just scratch the surface. Taking relevant information that are currently in my head and write it down. Then go to research just the slightiest stuffs that can support it. Like what do I do when writing Barattieri Family? I just read a single wikipedia article and watch one documentary (I don't even finish it). I don't need to know everything about the Trafficante. I can mention that Trafficante was once involved in conspiracy of assassinating President Kennedy, but that's all I need to remember. I don't need to go deeper into learning the 5W+H of the conspiracy because their story in my concept took place almost 50 years after the event.

 

Learn gradually, start with smallest and simplest information of what you need now, not what you need later. Knowledge will eventually pile up.

I still haven't had time to fully dive into Light & Shadow, but what I've seen so far has literally blown me away. Hearing you explain your process now definitely makes a ton of sense. This is how people usually write for television etc. They take an elevator pitch and put their own spin on it. Rockstar do this too. This is writing. I also appreciate historical accuracy, but I ultimately think if something is being forced,  it'll show up in two seconds. 

[kobeni]

9 hours ago, The Coconut Kid said:

The best way to break out of a rut here is to go outside and be around people. This is the experience you want – forget about books and television. Make sure you’re doing this clothed or we’re going to be following up on this conversation through plexiglass. The little details in your environment are going to inspire your settings. The people in them will be your background characters. The beautiful people will be your eye candy. The hustlers will inspire your schemes. The weathered-faced man in the bar with the huge shoulders and the biro-ink python on his arm will be your tough guy. Take a notepad or your phone and write this stuff down

I agree with this 100%. The best thing for figuring out your own style is to write based on your own experiences. It doesn't have to be 1-for-1 based on that encounter you had in real life but abstract characterizations and mannerisms that you've encountered which you can implement in a crime action setting. Books and films and stuff are okay but they're not as powerful as the personal human experience.

Edited February 6 by kobeni

[wise_man]

On 1/25/2023 at 7:47 AM, wise_man said:

 

"Mob Clash"

Fatally affected by the complicated gun ban, the market is forced to adapt immediately. Profits must keep flowing in. Demands for gangs, crooks, and civilians must be fulfilled. Smugglers transport crates in and out the city more creatively. Shopkeepers shift from legal front-door sales to illegal back-door services. Dealers hold their transactions in discreet. Guns are jewels in Brannigan, and these guys are the jewelers [Redacted]

[kobeni]

Forgive me but i gotta vent for a bit

 

I was working on gun icons for Gusenberg on Illustrator but on account of Adobe being the greedy suits they are my student plan expires and I gotta dish out like a hunnerd dollars plus tax for a monthly subscription, which I obviously don't wanna pay for.

 

I still have Affinity Designer and I can still do everything from scratch but still, it's weeks of work going down the drain and it kinda blows.

Edited February 7 by kobeni

[The Notorious MOB]

51 minutes ago, kobeni said:

Forgive me but i gotta vent for a bit

 

I was working on gun icons for Gusenberg on Illustrator but on account of Adobe being the greedy suits they are my student plan expires and I gotta dish out like a hunnerd dollars plus tax for a monthly subscription, which I obviously don't wanna pay for.

 

I still have Affinity Designer and I can still do everything from scratch but still, it's weeks of work going down the drain and it kinda blows.

Dude tell me about it. I got hit with the same sh*t over the weekend just as I was sitting down to knock together a few icons. I've now got a ten day grace period that I'm already half way through so I'll have to rattle out as much as I can now in quick succession and then just burn my hard drive.

[universetwisters]

3 hours ago, kobeni said:

Forgive me but i gotta vent for a bit

 

I was working on gun icons for Gusenberg on Illustrator but on account of Adobe being the greedy suits they are my student plan expires and I gotta dish out like a hunnerd dollars plus tax for a monthly subscription, which I obviously don't wanna pay for.

 

I still have Affinity Designer and I can still do everything from scratch but still, it's weeks of work going down the drain and it kinda blows.

I know it prob ain’t the same but if you need photoshop portable hit ya boy up

 

And that goes for the rest of you goobers