Israeli Troops kill unarmed teenagers during demonstration

[universetwisters]

Evidently this happened a week or so ago, but this is the first I'm hearing about it, even more so considering a video on it just got released.

JERUSALEM — A human rights group circulated a video on Tuesday that renews questions about last week’s killing of two Palestinian teenagers by Israeli forces during a West Bank demonstration.

The video, taken from a security camera belonging to a business in Beitunia, a West Bank town outside Ramallah, was edited and promoted by Defense for Children International-Palestine Section and shows two youths felled by apparent gunfire on Thursday about an hour apart in a sparsely populated concrete expanse shrouded by a cloud of smoke. Neither of the teenagers appeared to be engaged in provocative behavior at the time they were shot, though a photograph shows one wearing a black ski mask, and the video shows another individual hurling stones from the same spot seven minutes before the first shooting.

Hanan Ashrawi, a member of the Palestine Liberation Organization’s executive committee, condemned Israel’s “deliberate execution” of the teenagers, calling the shootings “crimes against humanity under international law” and demanding “immediate action” by the United Nations and the European Union. Rifat Kassis, executive director of Defense for Children International, said “neither child presented a direct and immediate threat to life at the time of their shooting” and urged Israel to “conduct serious, impartial, and thorough” inquiries to “hold the perpetrators accountable for their crimes.”

Lt. Col. Peter Lerner, a spokesman for the Israel Defense Forces, said Tuesday that investigations by the military and the police were continuing, and that “the preliminary inquiry up until this moment still does not indicate any use of live fire by the forces.” Colonel Lerner said that the few minutes of edited video footage did not capture the “atmosphere of violence” during the demonstration, and he noted that it did not show who fired the shots or whether they were rubber bullets or live ammunition.

“So what caused the deaths,” he said, “is a question mark that needs to be answered.”

A top United Nations official on Tuesday called for an “independent and transparent” investigation into the deadly shootings.

Oscar Fernández-Taranco, the assistant secretary general for political affairs, told the Security Council on Tuesday that Israel should “ensure that its security forces strictly adhere to the basic principles on the use of force and firearms by law enforcement officials.”

The deaths occurred on Nakba Day, in which Palestinians commemorate the destruction of scores of Arab villages around the founding of the state of Israel in 1948. The Israeli military said that 150 people had gathered for the demonstration outside Ofer prison — where more than 100 Palestinians had been on a hunger strike for weeks to protest their detention — and that they had hurled stones and firebombs and ignored orders to disperse.

“There was a substantial riot that took place,” Colonel Lerner said. “Our forces used riot-dispersal means and crowd-control methods to limit and prevent the riot from causing any damage.”

Palestinian health officials say that Nadeem Siam Nawara, 17, and Mohammad Mahmoud Odeh Salameh, 16, were killed by live ammunition. (They originally provided an incorrect age for Mohammad.)

B’Tselem, an Israeli human rights group, said in a statement on Tuesday that it had reviewed video from four security cameras and consulted medical experts who said the entry and exit wounds on the victims were “completely consistent with injuries caused by live fire and could not have been caused by rubber-coated metal bullets.” The statement said B’Tselem’s investigation raised “grave suspicion that the killing was willful.”

Fakher Zayed, who owns the building where the security camera was mounted, said in an interview that accompanies the footage on the video that he had heard live ammunition — “four shots to be exact” — and that “the shooting was not from the same side where the boys were throwing rocks at the beginning.”

“The army had fired plenty of tear-gas canisters, and the youth retreated back toward the gas station,” Mr. Zayed said. “At the moment of the killings, nothing was going on and no stone-throwing was taking place. Actually, the youths were moving back.”

Source

Watching the video, you got one kid who gets shot walking away from presumably his shooter and over to the building, and another to which another kid gets shot walking out of the building, neither of whom appear to be armed. What do you guys think of this? Is it justified? Unjustified?

[Special Members]

I wonder what Palikari has to say to this.

[Melech]

We don't know what happened, but in the video I don't see soldiers shooting anyone. I just see the two supposedly dead teenagers on the ground. The Army has said that the soldiers did not use real ammunition. Maybe this is just another Pallywood farce, just like Al-Dura's. Anyway, an investigation is already open.

 

Updated info about this incident: http://elderofziyon.blogspot.co.il/2014/05/pallywood-again-idf-denies-using-live.html

 

I personally can't believe soldiers shot to death two teenagers when they weren't carrying out acts of violence. The soldiers are banned from using real ammunition. If they really did, then then soldiers will be prosecuted and condemned. We have a great and independent judicial system.

 

EDIT: Times of Israel published this some hours ago: http://www.timesofisrael.com/top-official-film-of-palestinians-killing-likely-doctored/

Edited May 21, 2014 by Palikari

[Special Members]

*sigh*

[universetwisters]

I personally can't believe soldiers shot to death two teenagers when they weren't carrying out acts of violence. The soldiers are banned from using real ammunition. If they really did, then then soldiers will be prosecuted and condemned. We have a great and independent judicial system.

 

It happens. The year before I was born, some dude shot up the army base my dad used to be stationed at in the 1970s. It had to have been live ammunition, though. People don't die from rubber bullets to my knowledge, unless you're using "non lethal weapons" the wrong way.

Edited May 21, 2014 by universetwisters

[THE GHETTO JEZUS]

I'm not surprised that this kind of act happened as it's in the Middle East, where baby's can go to jail and you can be Osama Bin Ladens neighbor.

[Xl anthrax lX]

Well, if you shoot someone point blank in the head or somewhere like that with a rubber bullet you could kill them. You would wound them badly for sure.

[daboy042188]

if you take a rubber bullet to the dome that can totally kill you. it's still a piece of hard plastic moving the speed of sound. sh*t if you have a weak heart and take one to the chest that can kill you.

in general though the palestinians have a track history of doctoring video to make the israelis look like monsters, also i have to imagine the israeli army trains their soldiers not to shoot unarmed kids (although if the rocks are sizeable enough you're TOTALLY allowed to shoot the thrower under geneva rules) and i doubt that this would be a product of anti-arabic bias on the part of jewish soldiers simply because unless things have changed since i was last there the israelis like to send in israeli arab soldiers into the west bank and gaza for this kind of stuff (mostly cause they speak arabic which not all israeli jews do)

[RoadRunner71]

 

I personally can't believe soldiers shot to death two teenagers when they weren't carrying out acts of violence. The soldiers are banned from using real ammunition. If they really did, then then soldiers will be prosecuted and condemned. We have a great and independent judicial system.

 

It happens. The year before I was born, some dude shot up the army base my dad used to be stationed at in the 1970s. It had to have been live ammunition, though. People don't die from rubber bullets to my knowledge, unless you're using "non lethal weapons" the wrong way.

Yup, rubber bullet in the head and you're over. Few years ago in my hometown some guy resulted dead after being hit in the head with a rubber bullet the riot police shot during some disturbances after a football match. The official version said that the bullet hit a wall first and rebounded killing the guy. Other people claim that they aimed to kill... you know how this things usually go.

[universetwisters]

 

 

I personally can't believe soldiers shot to death two teenagers when they weren't carrying out acts of violence. The soldiers are banned from using real ammunition. If they really did, then then soldiers will be prosecuted and condemned. We have a great and independent judicial system.

It happens. The year before I was born, some dude shot up the army base my dad used to be stationed at in the 1970s. It had to have been live ammunition, though. People don't die from rubber bullets to my knowledge, unless you're using "non lethal weapons" the wrong way.

Yup, rubber bullet in the head and you're over. Few years ago in my hometown some guy resulted dead after being hit in the head with a rubber bullet the riot police shot during some disturbances after a football match. The official version said that the bullet hit a wall first and rebounded killing the guy. Other people claim that they aimed to kill... you know how this things usually go.

 

 

That would make sense if you're, like, a few feet from the gun. In the video, the kids are a good distance from any troops or anything.

Edited May 22, 2014 by universetwisters

[daboy042188]

 

 

 

I personally can't believe soldiers shot to death two teenagers when they weren't carrying out acts of violence. The soldiers are banned from using real ammunition. If they really did, then then soldiers will be prosecuted and condemned. We have a great and independent judicial system.

It happens. The year before I was born, some dude shot up the army base my dad used to be stationed at in the 1970s. It had to have been live ammunition, though. People don't die from rubber bullets to my knowledge, unless you're using "non lethal weapons" the wrong way.

Yup, rubber bullet in the head and you're over. Few years ago in my hometown some guy resulted dead after being hit in the head with a rubber bullet the riot police shot during some disturbances after a football match. The official version said that the bullet hit a wall first and rebounded killing the guy. Other people claim that they aimed to kill... you know how this things usually go.

 

 

That would make sense if you're, like, a few feet from the gun. In the video, the kids are a good distance from any troops or anything.

 

see above about rubber bullets being hard pieces of plastic going the speed of sound. people die from getting pegged in the head with a baseball

[Misbegotten cad]

Israelis do that sort of thing all the time.

 

Reason is that israelis believe they are the chosen people of God and therefore have right to do anything they want to other, lesser people.

 

Indeed, Israelis are just as fascist as nazis were!

[sivispacem]

Indeed, Israelis are just as fascist as nazis were!

I find misuse of the term "fascist " incredibly frustrating. Perhaps people should look up what it actually means before they're inclined to use it in situations where it's sensationalist but usually completely inapplicable.

[Frank Brown]

I personally can't believe soldiers shot to death two teenagers when they weren't carrying out acts of violence.

 

Oh, you can't?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

[Mr. Scratch]

And this suprises people how exactly? Soldiers killing non-combatants isn't all that rare, even if the kids had some rocks on them. The military can only change someone's behavior up to a point.

[theNGclan]

And this suprises people how exactly? Soldiers killing non-combatants isn't all that rare, even if the kids had some rocks on them. The military can only change someone's behavior up to a point.

This.

 

This whole event will be forgotten VERY quickly.

[universetwisters]

@ng & mrscratch - The thing just started and if I recall correctly, the UN is trying to get Israel to do a report on stuff like this on a regular basis. It'll be an interesting read for me.

 

As to whether or not it'll be forgotten, try to look up some examples of stuff like this in the past, troops shooting unarmed civilians, and see which ones are still known to this day (Kent State shooting, tienamen square protests, etc.) it's only forgotten if you want to forget about it.

[Mr. Scratch]

I think NG meant they just disappear from the public conscience fairly fast, that is until something similar happens and they can make tweets about it. That always works...

[universetwisters]

I think NG meant they just disappear from the public conscience fairly fast, that is until something similar happens and they can make

tweets about it. That always works...

I'd be surprised if it did, especially concerning those involved and in this day and age.

[SouthLand]

Is the news article an excuse to attack Palikari beacuse he is from Israel?

[Frank Brown]

Is the news article an excuse to attack Palikari beacuse he is from Israel?

 

I think UT just found it interesting. Palikari may have something to do with it.

 

Or his Nazi girlfriend rubbed off on him and he has a bit of anti-Semitism in his blood.

[Mr. Scratch]

Plot twist: maybe UT is Jewish.

[universetwisters]

I just saw it pop up in current events and it interested me, much like other news bits.

[Melech]

Israelis do that sort of thing all the time.

 

Reason is that israelis believe they are the chosen people of God and therefore have right to do anything they want to other, lesser people.

 

Indeed, Israelis are just as fascist as nazis were!

Yes, we are the chosen by G-d, but that doesn't mean we are better than other people or we can do evil or anything. We were chosen to receive the Torah.

 

And then your trivialize nazism.

 

Your comment is really insulting and disgusting and shows your hatred and ignorance.

 

Is the news article an excuse to attack Palikari beacuse he is from Israel?

I don't think so.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Palikari

[Moonshield]

Let's keep this topic from turning into an attack on any members, guys. Take it to PM and keep your bullsh*t out of this serious topic.

[SWEETSAPRIK]

Is anybody really surprised by anything either side in this does anymore? It isn't like you can't look back and find examples of both sides being completely willing to murder each other.

 

I personally don't trust either side enough to take their word, or even their questionable evidence, for anything.

 

Not that it really matters TBH. Lets assume for a second that this wasn't a staged bit of video, and that it actually happened, so? What exactly does anyone think would be happening next? If something like this happened in certain other countries, many people in the given country and surrounding countries would be outraged. When something like this happens between Palestine and Israel (no matter which side is responsible) if it even manages to make the news, nobody cares, at least not on the same level, and not for as long. And nobody wants to even try and take a side if they can avoid it, since in addition to being something that ends political careers almost anywhere in the world, there's also the fact that you can't have an opinion on this issue without people calling you anti-Muslim or anti-Semite (to be clear, being anti-Arab is being anti-Semitic, though in my experience most people that throw it around seem to act like it isn't the case for some reason.)

 

The day when either side commits a clear atrocity and the UN or anybody actually does something beyond pointless whining, I'll be incredibly surprised. At this point I honestly believe that when the UN makes a statement about some kind of violence that has happened between Palestine and Israel it is just a self-serving act. "We talked about it, see, we're paying attention and we care." "Are you going to do anything?" "Oh hell no."

 

The only thing I actually know for sure is that there are decent people on both sides, and (from the looks of things at least) they seem to be vastly outnumbered by the people that want to wipe the other side from the face of the earth.

[daboy042188]

I dont think the assholes in israel/Palestine outnumber the normals. I think that it's important to remember that both governments are still run by the revolutionaries and that both sides keep provoking the other. I figure give it 60-80 years and you'll get peace.

[IDredMan]

I love how every week some sh*t like this happens in a different part of the world, and people blame it on an obsolete stereotype depending on the location.

 

 

Why can't we all admit that the world is filled with dipsh*ts equally?

[Abel.]

I'm not sure what to make of this.

 

Firstly, Phil, I really don't like the slant of your opening post--you suggest that the video is utterly infallible but this is extremely uncertain. The IDF is averse to killing civilians--not only is such action deplored by the Torah, it is denounced by the ethos of the IDF, which is enunciated at around the 4:50 mark of the second video on this page:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22892783

 

(Video is an interview with a learned historian)

 

I'm not an expert on video editing and such, so I can't speak with certainty of the validity of this video. Needless to say, if those boys died, then certainly this is a tragedy (the death of innocence is an aberration, make no mistake). However, even if the boys were killed (I'm not saying "yes" or "no" to this), the circumstances of the event are still largely unknown.

 

 

I mean no disrespect, but I find it unsettling that Palikari was attacked from all sides when he posted a topic in similar vein to this regarding an incident at Temple Mount.

Edited May 22, 2014 by elanman

[universetwisters]

I remember hearing that the video might have been edited, but I havent heard about it in depth. As far as the last point goes, I thimk it was because of the heavy sense of religion and politics. I wont delve into it any more though, seeing as its off topic enough as it is.