Barcelona is looking everyday more like Belfast.

[Melech]

So separatism is only legitimate, if the entity they're separating from agrees to it on their own terms? So if Chechnya wanted to leave Russia, that wouldn't be on? What about that affair with Kosovo- was that an undemocratic farce? Irish independence? French Indo-China? The American Revolution? The list is endless.

In Chechnya and Kosovo wars and violations of human rights have taken place. Catalonia is an autonomous region of a sovereign, democratic and very decentralized state, not a colony or an occupied country. It's not even a nation!

 

To call your comparisons "pointless" is to give them a dignity they don't deserve.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Palikari

[SouthLand]

There is a region in North Western Catalonia that wants to declare Independence from Catalonia and, become a new region of Spain away from Catalonia.

This area is Called Vall d'Aran:

 

 

Vall d'Aran Flag:

 

 

 

 

And the main reason they want independence is because they say they have a different culture and language than the Catalan one and, that they feel discriminated by the Catalan government by not allowing them to use their own language "Aranes" in public institutions. Aranes. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aranese_dialect)

Their main Goal is to become a new region in Spain and to ask the Spanish government to allow them to use their language/culture along with the Spanish one.

 

As you can see in the map, Vall d'Aran area was not part of the Catalan culture but most likely the Occitania's culture:

 

 

 

I have been to that area many times, and it's funny because NOBODY will speak to you in Catalan. Everyone will speak to you in Aranes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aranese_dialect) or Spanish, not because they don't know how to speak Catalan, just because they boycott Catalonia. Here is an example of the Aranes independence feeling:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So separatism is only legitimate, if the entity they're separating from agrees to it on their own terms? So if Chechnya wanted to leave Russia, that wouldn't be on? What about that affair with Kosovo- was that an undemocratic farce? Irish independence? French Indo-China? The American Revolution? The list is endless.

In Chechnya and Kosovo wars and violations of human rights have taken place. Catalonia is an autonomous region of a sovereign, democratic and very decentralized state, not a colony or an occupied country. It's not even a nation!

 

To call your comparisons "pointless" is to give them a dignity they don't deserve.

 

 

 

Exactly. I wish i could invite all of you to Barcelona and show what it feels like to be a stranger in your own country just beacuse some lunatics want to become independent for economic reasons even though the EU has said that Catalonia would be out of the Euro Zone if they declare independence.

 

http://elpais.com/elpais/2014/04/15/inenglish/1397578233_577138.html

Edited April 30, 2014 by SouthLand

[Josh]

Hello Palikari. I've numbered the paragraphs in your response to me so it should be clear which part I'm responding to and when.

1. Most of those newspapers aren't conservative at all: Público is far-left, El Confidencial is centrist, La Marea is left-wing, ABC and La Razón are center-right, La Gaceta is right-wing, La Voz Libre is center-left and Te Interesa is centrist.

So very politically conservative?

2. If Catalonia became independent, it would be out of the EU authomatically. The Treaties (TEU, TFEU...) would not be applied on Catalonia, because the Agreements have been done by the Government of Spain and the EU, not the Catalan government. This is what EU leaders such as Durao Barroso have said many times, and also it's in the Treaties; read articles 4.2, 49 and 52 of the TEU.

3. Why would the EU give benefits to a non-EU state who voluntarily left the EU secceding?

4. Decissions in the EU are take UNANIMOUSLY. So if Catalonia became independent and all EU countries agreed that Catalonia gets the benefits without being in the EU and/or that Catalonia should enter the EU (*), if Spain doesn't agree, if Spain says "no", it's NO.

(*) Something almost impossible, given that many EU countries also have separatist problems.

So all would be in Spanish hands!

1. I didn't say that all of the links were to conservative newspapers did I? I just said that a lot were, and I stand by that. Aside from that my point still stands that the stories that provided were not the type of evidence that I was looking for (I was looking for a little bit more than the results of a Google search for corruption in the ciu). My other point, that many of the titles are designed to shock Spanish-speakers in Catalonia, still stands too so you haven't really attacked the meat of my argument there have you...

2. There is no factual basis or precedent for you to say that Catalonia wouldn't be immediately allowed into the Union upon succession, since there has never been such a case in EU history, and since it was never written into the treaties. So you're telling me to read the treaties, when I think you possibly need to do a better job of that yourself.

However, here again you've misrepresented my post. I never said that Catalonia would automatically be allowed in to the Union. Read my post properly before you quote it please next time -- I merely said that he wouldn't be able to prove that other countries would stand in the way of Catalonia, and that there would be very little opposition to them gaining many of the benefits of membership without actually being in the EU. I also said that Spain would not be able to prevent Catalonia from being de facto in the Schengen area, which is also true. But, not once did I say that Catalonia would automatically become a part of the EU if it declared independence -- you said that precisely so you could argue against it; tear down your straw men and we can have a proper debate.

3. Because EU countries trade with Catalonia already and it would make sense for them to sign a bilateral agreement (which does not require a unanimous decision to pass, only a qualified majority (15 countries, I believe. Although I'm not sure on that)).

Additionally, Catalonia wouldn't leave the EU -- it would leave Spain. Whether or not that would lead to leaving the EU is dependent on many other factors. Probably the most important factor will be Spain's stubbornness: Will they be able to put away gripes and do the sensible thing, which would be to vote Catalonia into the EU as soon as possible?

4. As I've said above, decisions on membership are taken unanimously but decisions on bilateral trade agreements are not. There is a precedent (Kosovo) for countries to sign trade agreements with the EU even if they are not recognised by Spain since such agreements only require a qualified majority.

And as for many EU countries having separatist problems, which ones have come out and said that they would veto Catalan membership of the EU? Spain seems to be the only country that has dragged its feet on similar issues in the past (namely that of Kosovo), so to say that the UK would care, or Italy, is at best fudging the issues, and at worst absolutely misrepresenting the facts of the case at hand.

Next time could you also not bother underlining and placing in bold certain words. I can read perfectly well, and I'm reasonably good at finding out what's important in a paragraph -- so don't embarrass yourself by appearing childish and petulant...

In Chechnya and Kosovo wars and violations of human rights have taken place. Catalonia is an autonomous region of a sovereign, democratic and very decentralized state, not a colony or an occupied country. It's not even a nation!

To call your comparisons "pointless" is to give them a dignity they don't deserve.

Chechnya wasn't a nation either before independence, but a part of Russia. His comparison was totally valid, because he gave examples of scenarios where countries declared independence against the wishes of the state which they were a part of.

And of course it isn't a nation, because if it were then it wouldn't need to declare independence. What a bizarre thing to say...

Exactly. I wish i could invite all of you to Barcelona and show what it feels like to be a stranger in your own country just beacuse some lunatics want to become independent for economic reasons even though the EU has said that Catalonia would be out of the Euro Zone if they declare independence.

http://elpais.com/elpais/2014/04/15/inenglish/1397578233_577138.html

I'm going to Barcelona in the summer for a couple of weeks; I can't wait to see how much like Belfast it looks and feels...

Regarding being out of the Eurozone, there is nothing that the EU can do to stop Catalonia from using the Euro as a temporary measure after independence. Montenegro has been using the Euro as a de facto currency for over 5 years and while the ECB is a little annoyed there is very little that they can do. Nor can they do anything to stop Catalonia from 'pegging' their own currency to the Euro when they do decide to mint their own currency.

Besides, this is very much a non-issue because do you really think Catalonia would declare independence straight after a referendum? There would be enough time to sort out all of these disputes before a formal declaration took place.

And finally, it's a little bit more than "some lunatics" when it looks like around 1/2 of the population of the region would vote for independence. You could always move back to Spain if Catalonia were to declare itself independent...

Edited April 30, 2014 by Josh

[sivispacem]

May I note at this point that the mere fact that newspapers are on the left of the political spectrum doesn't mean that they're any less averse to Catalan independence? Labour are on the left of the political spectrum in the UK but it hasn't stopped them campaigning for the "No" vote in the Scottish referendum. It's also worth pointing out that Palikari's concept of political left and right seem to be a bit skewed- he thinks I'm left wing for instance- so it might be worth double-checking his assessments.

[Josh]

May I note at this point that the mere fact that newspapers are on the left of the political spectrum doesn't mean that they're any less averse to Catalan independence? Labour are on the left of the political spectrum in the UK but it hasn't stopped them campaigning for the "No" vote in the Scottish referendum. It's also worth pointing out that Palikari's concept of political left and right seem to be a bit skewed- he thinks I'm left wing for instance- so it might be worth double-checking his assessments.

I meant to say that I meant conservative in the sense of being averse to the change (Catalan independence) rather than economically or politically conservative so that was an error of expression on my part.

 

But having said that I'd've thought that my reference to 'shock' tactics on the part of the newspapers directed at Spanish-speaking Catalans would've made my view sufficiently clear to Palikari regardless of my slightly ambiguous original statement -- but it didn't.

[Mr. House]

 

I meant to say that I meant conservative in the sense of being averse to the change (Catalan independence) rather than economically or politically conservative so that was an error of expression on my part.

 

But having said that I'd've thought that my reference to 'shock' tactics on the part of the newspapers directed at Spanish-speaking Catalans would've made my view sufficiently clear to Palikari regardless of my slightly ambiguous original statement -- but it didn't.

 

My God man, you can't be suggesting he is unable to follow a simple discussion and grasp it's content?

[Smith John]

 

 

Labour are on the left of the political spectrum in the UK but it hasn't stopped them campaigning for the "No" vote in the Scottish referendum.

Well, Labour has quite strong support from Scottish voters, so one might be inclined to question some of their motives for keeping the Union intact. For the record, I'm no Labour voter, believe me, but I'll still be selecting "No" come September. Just thought this was worth a little mention.

[Mr. House]

 

Labour are on the left of the political spectrum in the UK but it hasn't stopped them campaigning for the "No" vote in the Scottish referendum.

Well, Labour has quite strong support from Scottish voters, so one might be inclined to question some of their motives for keeping the Union intact. For the record, I'm no Labour voter, believe me, but I'll still be selecting "No" come September. Just thought this was worth a little mention.

 

I wouldn't say it's suspicion, more like glaringly obvious. The Labour party is done if Scotland secedes.

[Smith John]

Given the history of your posting style around here, it's rather difficult to distinguish whether you're being sarcastic or not.

[Mr. House]

Given the history of your posting style around here, it's rather difficult to distinguish whether you're being sarcastic or not.

I don't see how the Labour party could win outright in England and Wales if they lose 40 seats. Even a coalition with the liberals would be unlikely. Not any time soon at least. I very much doubt there will be a New Labour style turn around. Especially given the largely Labour boundary changes since then.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Myron

[Clem Fandango]

 

So separatism is only legitimate, if the entity they're separating from agrees to it on their own terms? So if Chechnya wanted to leave Russia, that wouldn't be on? What about that affair with Kosovo- was that an undemocratic farce? Irish independence? French Indo-China? The American Revolution? The list is endless.

In Chechnya and Kosovo wars and violations of human rights have taken place. Catalonia is an autonomous region of a sovereign, democratic and very decentralized state, not a colony or an occupied country. It's not even a nation!

 

To call your comparisons "pointless" is to give them a dignity they don't deserve.

 

Your point was that states have integrity and their borders can only be changed democratically, by the entire nation, remember?

 

Even if human rights violations render those two examples exceptional, that still leaves Ireland and the United States, who seceded due to poor representation, just as Catalonia seeks to.

 

Also, Catalonia is a "nation" by just about any reasonable definition.

[Melech]

May I note at this point that the mere fact that newspapers are on the left of the political spectrum doesn't mean that they're any less averse to Catalan independence? Labour are on the left of the political spectrum in the UK but it hasn't stopped them campaigning for the "No" vote in the Scottish referendum. It's also worth pointing out that Palikari's concept of political left and right seem to be a bit skewed- he thinks I'm left wing for instance- so it might be worth double-checking his assessments.

The left-wing and center-left newspapers are less averse to Catalan separatism than the center-right and right-wing ones. The only one that is not averse is Público, the far-left one, that supports separatism. Although their reports are in Spanish, they even write "Catalonia" in Catalan (I guess they think that writing it in Spanish is "fascist"). In Spain, the only newspapers that support separatism are the far-left ones and the ones funded by the Catalan government with taxpayers' money.

 

I said you were left-wing because you said I was an extremist. But I really don't know what's your ideology.

 

 

So separatism is only legitimate, if the entity they're separating from agrees to it on their own terms? So if Chechnya wanted to leave Russia, that wouldn't be on? What about that affair with Kosovo- was that an undemocratic farce? Irish independence? French Indo-China? The American Revolution? The list is endless.

 

In Chechnya and Kosovo wars and violations of human rights have taken place. Catalonia is an autonomous region of a sovereign, democratic and very decentralized state, not a colony or an occupied country. It's not even a nation!

 

To call your comparisons "pointless" is to give them a dignity they don't deserve.

 

Your point was that states have integrity and their borders can only be changed democratically, by the entire nation, remember?

 

Even if human rights violations render those two examples exceptional, that still leaves Ireland and the United States, who seceded due to poor representation, just as Catalonia seeks to.

 

Also, Catalonia is a "nation" by just about any reasonable definition.

 

That's not only "my point", that's International Law.

 

Catalonia doesn't have poor representation, it has the same or even more than other Spanish regions. Most Catalan MPs in the Spanish Congress oppose separatism.

 

Catalonia is not a nation and has never been. Do you know what a history book is?

 

You've no idea about Catalonia or Catalan separatism.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Palikari

[Clem Fandango]

Do you know what a dictionary is? Look up the word "nation."

 

Well you've either ignored or failed to grasp the point of the parallels I was making, so it's whatever.

[Josh]

Hello again Palikari. Since you didn't bother to respond to my original post I'll just have a look at your responses to Sivi and Melchior:

Response to Sivispacem:

The left-wing and center-left newspapers are less averse to Catalan separatism than the center-right and right-wing ones. The only one that is not averse is Público, the far-left one, that supports separatism. Although their reports are in Spanish, they even write "Catalonia" in Catalan (I guess they think that writing it in Spanish is "fascist"). In Spain, the only newspapers that support separatism are the far-left ones and the ones funded by the Catalan government with taxpayers' money.

-----

Response to Melchior:

1. That's not only "my point", that's International Law.

2. Catalonia doesn't have poor representation, it has the same or even more than other Spanish regions. Most Catalan MPs in the Spanish Congress oppose separatism.

3. Catalonia is not a nation and has never been. Do you know what a history book is?

4. You've no idea about Catalonia or Catalan separatism.

On your response to Sivispacem:

If a newspaper is averse to independence, then it doesn't matter where they stand on the political spectrum or who they appeal to, they are in that respect conservative.

But again you are skirting the issue. I said that Southland provided links a lot of links to newspapers which were anti-independence and you have come back and said that only one of those newspapers is supportive of independence. That proves my point and also shows perfectly how you are unable to focus on the debate at hand.

On your response to Melchior:

1. International law has not pronounced a view on either side of the debate. Whilst generally supportive of existing states and their territorial integrity (see the Aland Islands question for an example of this principle) they have also allowed sui generis secessions (Kosovo). In neither of those cases was it said that states either could or could not secede from existing states without permission.

If anything international law recommends that countries recognise the right to 'internal secession', in other words, secession carried out through negotiation with the rump state after a clear majority in the breakaway province vote for independence. That was the principle applied in Canada and the principle that will be applied in the UK. If Spain were to refuse to negotiate with Catalonia about independence following a majority vote in a free and fair referendum then it would be a unique case for international law to deal with as and when it occurs -- which could prompt the granting of a sui generis secession (although that would require a pretty qualified majority). Nothing is at all clear in this case so to go around claiming that international law says anything at all about the issue at hand -- supporting either side -- is, again, misrepresenting the facts of the matter.

2. OK then let's have a look at some statistics to test this claim. In the upper house of the Spanish parliament only Galicia is less represented in the terms of region-appointed senators. Both Catalonia and Galicia are represented by one senator for over every 900,000 people, compared to one for every 309,000 in La Rioja. Granted, the bigger areas of Spain are all underrepresented in this part of the Senate, but this doesn't really support your claim that they are overrepresented in the compared to other regions, at least not in this part of the political framework of the country.

In the lower house, and in the rest of the Senate they have roughly as much representation as any other region of Spain, but do you think that that is in any way comparable to the representation that they would get as an independent state?

And as for "most Catalan MPs in the Spanish congress oppose separatism":

Of the 47 congressional seats in Catalonia:

• 19 are held by pro-Catalan independence parties (16 by CiU and 3 by ERC).
• 11 are held by parties that are clearly anti-referendum and therefore anti-independence (PP).
• All of the remaining 17 seats are held by pro-referendum parties, which support the right of Catalans to hold a vote on the matter. We have no idea which way those people would vote in said referendum (3 are probably pro-independence, 2 more have said that they would vote for it in a legal referendum, while the other 12 haven't made their positions clear on the issue, probably for fear of losing the support of their party (which is based in Madrid)).

Besides, as no legal referendum has been done you have no way of knowing which way these people would vote if they were given the choice to do so by the government, so for you to come out and say that the majority of Catalans in the lower house are anti-independence is just wrong. You are basing it off of party affiliations, rather than the actual feelings of the people involved. And yet again it appears as if you are misrepresenting the facts of the matter.

 

3. According to the definition set forth in the Oxford English Dictionary, Catalonia is most certainly a nation. According to its own Statute of Autonomy, signed and ratified by both the Spanish and Catalan parliaments, and the Spanish Constitutional Court, Catalonia is a nation and Catalan is a nationality.

 

Additionally, Catalonia was a separate state for around 200 years or so before being self-governing as a nation under the Crown of Aragon for many more years (as an aside, the title 'Count of Barcelona', meaning leader of Catalonia, is a separate title which is passed down alongside the Spanish line of succession, further validating my point I would say).

 

4. Be careful with the stone-throwing mate, glass houses aren't particularly cheap nowadays...

Edited May 1, 2014 by Josh

[SouthLand]

In Spain it's illegal to modify in anyway your license plate. However, in Catalonia you can see this in many vehicles:

 

 

 

 

 

 

THIS IS ILLEGAL BY SPANISH LAW

 

As i said before, it's not the sticker that is Ilegal but it's where you place it, you can't modify your license plate by law.

Cars that travel out of Catalonia to some other areas of Spain will get pulled over and fined if the cops see this sticker on their licence plate, HOWEVER, In Catalonia although its illegal a lot of cops don't enforce the law since they share the same political ideas as the driver.

 

Some other people, place the sticker next to the license plate just to avoid a ticket.

 

 

 

This is what happens if you put a Spanish flag in your car in Catalonia:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Freedom of speech? Where?

[Melech]

Freedom of speech? Where?

Catalan separatists don't know what freedom of speech means.

[SouthLand]

 

Freedom of speech? Where?

Catalan separatists don't know what freedom of speech means.

 

 

They only know what it means when they are the ones who demand it, but the don't respect anybody else who thinks differently.

[Killerdude]

Catalonia people remind me of people from Quebec, They want independence, But they also want the Car, The house, The dog and the Kids lol.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Killerdude8

[SouthLand]

Catalonia people remind me of people from Quebec, They want independence, But they also want the Car, The house, The dog and the Kids lol.

 

I have been to Canada but only to Ontario. I don't know if people from Quebec are so Radical as the Catalans or are they more tolerant.

[Chris Fromage]

I have no real opinion about the situation of Catalonia, but this thread reminds me of a polandball comic.

 

 

 

Anyways, isn't there going to be a referendum or something later?

[Killerdude]

 

Catalonia people remind me of people from Quebec, They want independence, But they also want the Car, The house, The dog and the Kids lol.

 

I have been to Canada but only to Ontario. I don't know if people from Quebec are so Radical as the Catalans or are they more tolerant.

 

Quebec is definitely a lot more Tolerant, It's kinda like a "If we could be Independent, That'd be great." thing.

[sivispacem]

Hmm, not so sure about Québec being more tolerant than Catalonia, historically speaking at least. Pretty sure Québec nationalist terrorism has been vastly more violent than any support for Catalan nationalism.

[SouthLand]

I have no real opinion about the situation of Catalonia, but this thread reminds me of a polandball comic.

 

 

 

Anyways, isn't there going to be a referendum or something later?

 

 

Translation:

 

- What do we want?

 

- Independence

 

-How much are we willing to spend to achieve the independence

 

- VIva España

 

There is a Stereotype in Spain that Catalans are very Stingy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Catalonia people remind me of people from Quebec, They want independence, But they also want the Car, The house, The dog and the Kids lol.

 

I have been to Canada but only to Ontario. I don't know if people from Quebec are so Radical as the Catalans or are they more tolerant.

 

Quebec is definitely a lot more Tolerant, It's kinda like a "If we could be Independent, That'd be great." thing.

 

 

Oh lucky you. Here it's not like Belfast but not like Quebec... More cowards i would say, you know, vandalism at night, punching people with a hood on...

 

In this video, you could see a parent who brought her child to a peaceful meeting on Plaza Catalonia that was an act on "Hey in Catalonia we also feel Spanish". An anti-fascist and pro independence rally was held in the square next to Plaza Catalonia (Less than 500m away). This parent was heading with her child to that square where the Pro-Independence where to get on the Subway and, he was attacked by a mob of people who supported the independence because her daughter was wearing a Spanish National team jersey... The girl was also hit.

 

 

Edited May 5, 2014 by SouthLand

[Killerdude]

 

 

 

 

Catalonia people remind me of people from Quebec, They want independence, But they also want the Car, The house, The dog and the Kids lol.

 

I have been to Canada but only to Ontario. I don't know if people from Quebec are so Radical as the Catalans or are they more tolerant.

 

Quebec is definitely a lot more Tolerant, It's kinda like a "If we could be Independent, That'd be great." thing.

 

 

Oh lucky you. Here it's not like Belfast but not like Quebec... More cowards i would say, you know, vandalism at night, punching people with a hood on...

 

In this video, you could see a parent who brought her child to a peaceful meeting on Plaza Catalonia that was an act on "Hey in Catalonia we also feel Spanish". An anti-fascist and pro independence rally was held in the square next to Plaza Catalonia (Less than 500m away). This parent was heading with her child to that square where the Pro-Independence where to get on the Subway and, he was attacked by a mob of people who supported the independence because her daughter was wearing a Spanish National team jersey... The girl was also hit.

 

 

 

Man what the f*ck?

Beating People because they Wore a Jersey?

God damn, This is sh*tty.

 

And children getting hit in the crossfire.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Killerdude8

[Killerdude]

Hmm, not so sure about Québec being more tolerant than Catalonia, historically speaking at least. Pretty sure Québec nationalist terrorism has been vastly more violent than any support for Catalan nationalism.

Maybe, I'm just going on the fact I rarely see "Quebec Gone Wild" Stories on the News anymore, Maybe it was crazier 10, 20 years ago, But I'd say it has definitely calmed down now.

[SouthLand]

 

Hmm, not so sure about Québec being more tolerant than Catalonia, historically speaking at least. Pretty sure Québec nationalist terrorism has been vastly more violent than any support for Catalan nationalism.

Maybe, I'm just going on the fact I rarely see "Quebec Gone Wild" Stories on the News anymore, Maybe it was crazier 10, 20 years ago, But I'd say it has definitely calmed down now.

 

 

Si while in Quebec things are settling down, In Catalonia things are getting more tense.

[Mr. Scratch]

I for one would like to see the Ottoman Empire restored. The Ottoman Turks did not agree to Serbian, Greek, Bosnian, Albanian, Armenian, Romanian, Syrian and Egyptian states being formed or returned.

You cheeky c*nt, do you really think the world needs another Vlad the Impaler right now?

[Der Süden]

 

I for one would like to see the Ottoman Empire restored. The Ottoman Turks did not agree to Serbian, Greek, Bosnian, Albanian, Armenian, Romanian, Syrian and Egyptian states being formed or returned.

You cheeky c*nt, do you really think the world needs another Vlad the Impaler right now?I think Erdogan is not so far away from that. Didn't he even say that he want his country in old borders? Edited May 8, 2014 by Preusse

[Mr. Scratch]

Sure, maybe in an alternate reality Turkey's gonna get it's empire back, maybe Elton John is the new pope, maybe we'll be able to download rice.

[Der Süden]

I got the word impaler wrong, just looked it up in my dictionary. I don't mean he will get what he wants. That's unlikely. I mean that I think there is not so much that differs him from Putin when it comes to empire fantasies. But since impaler doesn't mean emperor, forget about it.