Barcelona is looking everyday more like Belfast.

[universetwisters]

 

 

 

You're missing my point. It's not on how many people escape, it's how well off they were. Not all communism is entirely bad. Of course, it has it's flaws, but so does capitalism. You can't generalize every communist country out there as being an expy of Cuba or North Korea. If that were the case, then which country will you compare every capitalist country to?

 

If they were so good, then why did they scape; why was the wall built and all citizens trying to scape were shot dead?

 

Go read a history book or watch a documentary. Find where it says that "every citizen in the GDR tried to escape over the Berlin wall", and then get back to me.

 

I was very good at history on high school, I have read books and watched documentaries.

 

When did I say that every DDR citizen tried to scape? Millions wanted and tried, tens were killed.

 

 

Take a look at this.

 

 

After reviewing 575 deaths, the project team found that at least 136 people died in shootings, were killed in accidents or committed suicide after failing to cross the Wall.[7] These 136 victims fell into five categories:

*Fugitives shot and killed or fatally injured by East German security forces while trying to cross the Wall;

*Fugitives who died while attempting to cross the Wall, or who committed suicide when their attempt failed, or who suffered fatal injuries in the course of their attempt;

*People from East and West who were shot and killed or fatally injured by East German security forces;

*People from East and West who died or were fatally injured as a result of the actions or inaction of the East German security forces;

*Members of the East German border troops who were killed or suffered fatal injuries while on duty.[8]

Another 16 cases of drowning could not definitively be connected to the Wall. Many other travellers from East and West Germany and Czechoslovakia died immediately before, during or after passing through checkpoints in Berlin, with a published figure of 251 deaths: most were the result of cardiac arrest.[7]

 

@elanman - I get your point too and whatnot. The DDR perhaps isn't the great socialist paradise. But then again, modern communism is far from the communism Karl Marx envisioned.

[make total destroy]

They're capitalist states, complete with a working class, and a ruling class. Communism is by definition a stateless, classless, moneyless society in which private property (i.e. capital) is abolished, and the means of production held in common.

 

Social equality and communist are an utopia, They can't be carried out. The USSR, China and ALL communist countries. You repeat the theory like a parrot, but you don't talk about the practical consequences of that.

 

A "communist country" is a contradiction in terms. The USSR was not communist, China is not/was not communist, and so forth. If you had a grasp of communism outside of your high school classes, you'd probably understand that.

[Melech]

A "communist country" is a contradiction in terms. The USSR was not communist, China is not/was not communist, and so forth. If you had a grasp of communism outside of your high school classes, you'd probably understand that.

 

Hahaha! You're very funny.

 

The USSR was and China is a "dictatorship of the proletariat" (i.e. a dictatorship of the Communist Party).

[Abel.]

I think the difficulty here is that Palkari is discussing states popularly referred to as "communist", which one could better describe as totalitarian, and rightly criticising them, but others are seeing this as a misconstruing this as an attack on the ideological theory which underlies communism.

 

Twisters: Exactly. No one is trying to attack the theory of communism here--political science is not my area of study so I'm not qualified to criticise it. However, remarking critically upon repressive regimes which acted under the guise of communism in the past, or continue to do so today, is far removed from this and is justified. Certain socialist policies could be beneficial in certain places for all I know (see my Kerala example a few posts back).

[gtamann123]

So is this going to descend into another Communism Vs. Capitalism debate like the General Political Discussion thread? Where the Communist side recycled the same arguments over and over again and refused to present anything new or respond to the points made by the pro capitalism side and instead just decided to curl up in the corner and call anyone who supported Capitalism evil? (not necessarily saying the Pro Capitalism side was any orders of magnitude better though) If so I will not be participating in this round and will just break out my popcorn.

Edited April 24, 2014 by gtamann123

[make total destroy]

 

A "communist country" is a contradiction in terms. The USSR was not communist, China is not/was not communist, and so forth. If you had a grasp of communism outside of your high school classes, you'd probably understand that.

 

Hahaha! You're very funny.

 

The USSR was and China is a "dictatorship of the proletariat" (i.e. a dictatorship of the Communist Party).

 

A "dictatorship of the proletariat" implies working-class power to suppress counter-revolution (i.e. not fully-realized communism). Doesn't really sound like China or the USSR to me.

 

 

So is this going to descend into another Communism Vs. Capitalism debate like the General Political Discussion thread? Where the Communist side recycled the same arguments over and over again and refused to present anything new or respond to the points made by the pro capitalism side and instead just decided to curl up in the corner and call anyone who supported Capitalism evil? If so I will not be participating in this round and will just break out my popcorn.

Yo, maybe it's because the "pro-capitalist side" (AKA the masochists) repeat the same recycled age-old hypothetical questions about who would plunge their toilets, or whatever. Or argue in favor of some sort of innate human nature that is--in reality--socially constructed upon the social, material conditions of a present society, and enforced by the ruling ideology of that society. I wouldn't call people who think capitalism is in anyway a system that is beneficial to them, or a good system, "evil". Either they're incredibly f*cking dumb, or they're bourgeois, and capitalism is objectively in their class interest.

Edited April 24, 2014 by ShootPeopleNotDope

[Melech]

I think the difficulty here is that Palkari is discussing states popularly referred to as "communist", which one could better describe as totalitarian, and rightly criticising them, but others are seeing this as a misconstruing this as an attack on the ideological theory which underlies communism.

 

Twisters: Exactly. No one is trying to attack the theory of communism here--political science is not my area of study so I'm not qualified to criticise it. However, remarking critically upon repressive regimes which acted under the guise of communism in the past, or continue to do so today, is far removed from this and is justified. Certain socialist policies could be beneficial in certain places for all I know (see my Kerala example a few posts back).

I'd say in short that communism is totalitarian since there's no place for dissent and no free elections.

 

I am not a socialist (I'm economically liberal) but I agree that certain socialist policies could work on some places such as poor countries.

[Abel.]

So is this going to descend into another Communism Vs. Capitalism debate like the General Political Discussion thread? Where the Communist side recycled the same arguments over and over again and refused to present anything new or respond to the points made by the pro capitalism side and instead just decided to curl up in the corner and call anyone who supported Capitalism evil? If so I will not be participating in this round and will just break out my popcorn.

 

Sorry mate, but this doesn't add anything to the thread.

 

Anyway, I apologise to the OP for having a part in derailing this thread. In an attempt to get back on track, here's an interesting article on the subject of Catalan independence:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25717161

 

It's interesting to read. Ultimately the Catalans should have a right to autonomy if that's what the majority desire, but I can understand Spain's reticence to the movement given the comparative economic prosperity of the region and the impact this has on Spain.

 

What do our members from the region have to think about this?

[universetwisters]

Twisters: Exactly. No one is trying to attack the theory of communism here--political science is not my area of study so I'm not qualified to criticise it. However, remarking critically upon repressive regimes which acted under the guise of communism in the past, or continue to do so today, is far removed from this and is justified. Certain socialist policies could be beneficial in certain places for all I know (see my Kerala example a few posts back).

 

That was a good analogy. Reason why I listed East Germany for the example though was because it was the one satellite state I was the most familiar with, having done research on it for a mod project and modelling it in miniature. One of the biggest differences between the GDR and the rest of the Soviet Union was the culture. In the GDR, you had your good deal of Ostrock, flashy clothes, etc. (if you have an hour or two, watch "Goodbye Lenin". Great film on the topic) and one of the biggest model companies in the USSR. Sure, those don't seem like valid points when discussing socialism, but the common image of socialism/communism is grey, bleak, depressing, right? From what I researched, the GDR challenged it pretty damn fine.

[Melech]

A "dictatorship of the proletariat" implies working-class power to suppress counter-revolution (i.e. not fully-realized communism). Doesn't really sound like China or the USSR to me.

 

Nice euphemism to say eliminate all dissent!

 

"Working-class" power? No, power of the Communist Party (CP), that claims to represent the "working-class", yet if the "working class" was really represented by the CP, the CP would have won the election since the "working-class" is the majority. But the CP has never won a democratic election.

 

Umm.

It's interesting to read. Ultimately the Catalans should have a right to autonomy if that's what the majority desire, but I can understand Spain's reticence to the movement given the comparative economic prosperity of the region and the impact this has on Spain.

 

What do our members from the region have to think about this?

 

Catalans have a great autonomy, more authonomy than any Spanish or European region. They control their laws, education, healthcare, police... And almost their economy.

[make total destroy]

 

I think the difficulty here is that Palkari is discussing states popularly referred to as "communist", which one could better describe as totalitarian, and rightly criticising them, but others are seeing this as a misconstruing this as an attack on the ideological theory which underlies communism.

 

Twisters: Exactly. No one is trying to attack the theory of communism here--political science is not my area of study so I'm not qualified to criticise it. However, remarking critically upon repressive regimes which acted under the guise of communism in the past, or continue to do so today, is far removed from this and is justified. Certain socialist policies could be beneficial in certain places for all I know (see my Kerala example a few posts back).

I'd say in short that communism is totalitarian since there's no place for dissent and no free elections.

 

I am not a socialist (I'm economically liberal) but I agree that certain socialist policies could work on some places such as poor countries.

 

Except that communism is a stateless society of free producers. Hardly totalitarian. Marxist-Leninism =/= Communism

[Josh]

You're missing my point. It's not on how many people escape, it's how well off they were. Not all communism is entirely bad. Of course, it has it's flaws, but so does capitalism. You can't generalize every communist country out there as being an expy of Cuba or North Korea. If that were the case, then which country will you compare every capitalist country to?

 

Well the people of East Germany were much worse off than people in West Germany and Austria at the same time, and socially they were held down by a ridiculous secret police force. It was only when the Stasi archives were opened up that it was shown how many people were on the government's payroll spying on eachother. How can you escape from a country when you can't be sure that your own mother or wife won't shop you to the authorities (this happened quite often, and it wasn't rare to see both partners in a marriage informing on the other) as even talking about defection was an arrestable offence?

 

A great many people were probably prevented from escaping by this fear, and also by the inability to take their families with them (and also fear that they would be killed by the Stasi post-defection, which happened in a couple of high profile cases, notably that of Lutz Eigendorf). When people were offered the chance to move freely they did so (hence why a wall was needed and why over 120,000 people signed a petition asking for freedom of movement between the two Germanys in the 1970s), so to claim that communism wasn't bad because the people of an oppressed nation didn't run away is, well, ridiculous.

 

If you wanted to pick an example of a country that showed what communism could accomplish in a good sense, I don't think you could've picked a worse example than East Germany -- a part of the world that still suffers because of the reparations extracted by the Soviets, and which still has trust issues based on the fact that a great many of their people were lied to, and an equally large number of their friends and family were lying to them.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Josh

[Saikou]

Is it wrong that this whole thread remonds me of spaghetti?

[make total destroy]

Is it wrong that this whole thread remonds me of spaghetti?

Nah, there's some saucy mothaf*ckas in this thread.

[universetwisters]

Is it wrong that this whole thread remonds me of spaghetti?

 

This thread reminds me more of a ham sandwich with moldy bread.

Edited April 24, 2014 by universetwisters

[make total destroy]

 

A "dictatorship of the proletariat" implies working-class power to suppress counter-revolution (i.e. not fully-realized communism). Doesn't really sound like China or the USSR to me.

 

Nice euphemism to say eliminate all dissent!

 

"Working-class" power? No, power of the Communist Party (CP), that claims to represent the "working-class", yet if the "working class" was really represented by the CP, the CP would have won the election since the "working-class" is the majority. But the CP has never won a democratic election.

 

Umm.

I never said these states were representative of the DOTP, or that I--as an anarchist, not a Marxist--even accept the concept. But that's not the point. I explicitly stated that China and the USSR were capitalist states, and that communism cannot be exclusive to one country.

 

By the way, literally every nation state on Earth attempts to eliminate dissent. That, however, is not the goal of the communist project.

Edited April 24, 2014 by ShootPeopleNotDope

[Mr. House]

So is this going to descend into another Communism Vs. Capitalism debate like the General Political Discussion thread? Where the Communist side recycled the same arguments over and over again and refused to present anything new or respond to the points made by the pro capitalism side and instead just decided to curl up in the corner and call anyone who supported Capitalism evil? (not necessarily saying the Pro Capitalism side was any orders of magnitude better though) If so I will not be participating in this round and will just break out my popcorn.

Well I have to say, the three or so people who argued the 'communist' side certainly put time and effort into their apparent recycled arguments, unlike you and the plethora of others who failed to understand basic ideas of how a share economy would work without people hoarding billions of cans of mountain Dew and End Tables.

[Clem Fandango]

Yeah man if I lived in a communist society I would drink free sugary drinks until I exploded and fill my apartment with furniture stacked to the ceiling. None of your recycled arguments can refute this, as it is human nature to guzzle high fructose corn syrup and take and hoard all the furniture you can get your hands on at great inconvenience to yourself and with no apparent personal gain. Sorry, I know these ideas are great in theory, but you just can't surmount the problem of the human longing to be free and have pure sugar pumping through their veins and sleep on an end table because they had to throw out their bed to make room for more end tables.

 

And what do we do about antiques? Clearly the economy of the modern, Western world runs entirely on antiquing, so how do we determine the value of antiques without a capitalist market? You can't just ditch antiques or the economy will collapse, or it may be an affront to freedom, I haven't decided which. Either way, socialism doesn't work. We need price signals and market allocation for crappy, sugary drinks and old humidors and I simply refuse to live without those things.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Melchior

[gtamann123]

I already said I am not arguing so i don't see why you would come in hours afterwards and attempt to start a debate.

 

Plus I find myself growing more and more apathetic about economics and politics in general these days because it is all out of my control anyways so I have just stopped caring. So I guess you guys win by forfeit then.

 

I am going to head down to the Gas Station across the street and buy myself 3 two liters of sweet sweet high fructose corn syrup

[Clem Fandango]

Nobody is starting a debate with you; they're mocking you.

 

Although I will point out that some sadistic part of me finds it funny that you've been socialised to defend American capitalism despite- by your own admission- being poor and having to forego health care because you can't afford the medical bills. Not to mention feeling increasing apathy because your social status forbids you from being involved in the system.

[gtamann123]

Nobody is starting a debate with you; they're mocking you.

 

Although I will point out that some sadistic part of me finds it funny that you've been socialised to defend American capitalism despite- by your own admission- being poor and having to forego health care because you can't afford the medical bills. Not to mention feeling increasing apathy because your social status forbids you from being involved in the system.

That isn't the systems fault its my parents. They were the ones who brought two children into the world despite working unstable low paying factory jobs. Leading to me ending up in my current social status. not that I am throwing blame at them or are unhappy at them or something its just the fact.

 

And I am starting to grow more comfortable in my state of increased Apathy. I never understood the ignorance is bliss thing until I actually started to just become ignorant and it certainly is blissfull

Edited April 25, 2014 by gtamann123

[Clem Fandango]

Yeah totally not the system's fault. How could your parents even dream of giving into their biological yearning to reproduce when they're nothing but working class plebs?

 

And it's definitely the system's fault for not giving you f*cking healthcare.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Melchior

[gtamann123]

Eh what ever im not complaining. My life is relatively comfortable. Despite being from the lower working classes I still have a roof over my head and food on my plate. And money left over for video games and internet access and other luxury items some people in the world aren't lucky enough to have.

 

And I don't really care that much about not having good access to healthcare and I guess you could say I am indifferent on that issue as well. If there were ever Universal health coverage in the US that would be great. But i'm not going to complain too much that there isn't. I just haven't earned good health coverage yet.

[Clem Fandango]

I just haven't earned good health coverage yet.

Yeah you need for WORK for your right to life!

 

Jesus man, you are so brainwashed it's stopped being funny. "Yeah I'm destitute and a single accident could cripple me financially but at least I have a few obsolete pieces of luxury electronics that the people in our overseas neocolonies don't have access to, I'm so grateful! Of course I'll lose all of that if I trip down the stairs and have to pay hospital bills but easy come easy go" What kind of dystopia am I living in?

Edited April 25, 2014 by Melchior

[gtamann123]

 

I just haven't earned good health coverage yet.

Yeah you need for WORK for your right to life!

 

Jesus man, you are so brainwashed it's stopped being funny. "Yeah I'm destitute and a single accident could cripple me financially but at least I have a few obsolete pieces of luxury electronics that the people in our overseas neocolonies don't have access to, I'm so grateful! Of course I'll lose all of that if I trip down the stairs and have to pay hospital bills but easy come easy go" What kind of dystopia am I living in?

 

While you make good points man I'm just going to leave now. Like I said I'm not trying to argue politics anymore as it is just a waste of time and I just don't care enough anymore to put in the effort to stage a debate.

 

So if you want to start a Communist revolution then go ahead I won't stop you because I don't care. Or if nothing happens and our current systems of governance and economics stay in place I wont care either. See where I'm getting at?

Edited April 25, 2014 by gtamann123

[Mr. House]

I already said I am not arguing so i don't see why you would come in hours afterwards and attempt to start a debate.

 

Plus I find myself growing more and more apathetic about economics and politics in general these days because it is all out of my control anyways so I have just stopped caring. So I guess you guys win by forfeit then.

 

I am going to head down to the Gas Station across the street and buy myself 3 two liters of sweet sweet high fructose corn syrup

I don't particularly care what happens in the west either, but I'm certainly not going to actively defend a system if that system were to have huge issues in areas that affect my life negatively and I CERTAINLY wouldn't argue against reforms that would actively benefit me.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Myron

[Frank Brown]

So uh... How about those capitalist pigs, amirite?

[sivispacem]

Let's get back on topic please.

[SouthLand]

I don't think you know what Belfast looks like bro.

 

Never been there, but not a lot of cities in the first world are that socially split up.

 

 

 

Flag waving? Crowds in the street, not facing machine guns and grenades?

Don't look similar to me...

 

The English (or Americans) aren't in occupation?

 

1978 -1991

 

Pro- Independence group: Terra Lliure (Free Land)

 

 

1970-1990

Anti- Independence group: Milicia Catalana (Catalan Militia)

 

 

If I recall from vaguely looking a long time ago, support for Catalonian independence is very high, in the 40-55% range.

 

Since the recession, the number of people who support the independence has increased. I bet if you offer a lot of Catalans who support between a good job or the Independence they will pick the first option.

 

You're exaggerating the map. When I went to Barcelona I saw a lot of Spanish flags and just a few Catalan flags with the star.

 

Catalan separatists are insane. They said that Christopher Columbus, Miguel De Cervantes, Leonardo Da Vinci and Erasmus of Rotterdam were Catalan!!! They also think that Catalonia is not only Catalonia, but Valencia, the Balearic Islands, the Pyrénées Orientales (France) and a part of Sardinia (Italy). This is their Great Catalonia (Serbia's Milosevic, anyone?). They invent a history and steal other's history in order to fit with their separatist radical ideals. They also ban Spanish language and indoctrinate children at schools. They are disgusting.

 

An "expert" calling the Chinese navy to threaten Europe, on the Catalan station TV3:

 

 

 

Catalan MP inventing history:

 

 

 

Catalonia has never been a nation. It's Spanish and should never be independent. Anyway, most Catalans are not separatists. There have been massive rallies against independence: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/12/catalan-rally-independence_n_4089112.html

 

Dude, I don't know when did you come here, but, honestly i bet you haven't been to all Barcelona's areas like i have. I lived all my life in the same city and this has changed completely. It's even worse if you drive to any small rural area:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know what Catalonia is, Sherlock. I don't need an explanation. "Crown of Aragon". Where is "Catalonia" as a nation? Catalonia was a small part of the Crown of Aragon, that later became "Spain" along with the Crown of Castille.

 

 

Catalonia has never been a nation and certainly is not a nation. It's just another part of Spain.

 

Says who, the rest of Spain? What right does Madrid have to deny the majority population who want self determination?

 

 

What right does the Catalan government have to not let students in college take classes in Spanish and only take them in Catalan or English?

 

What right does the Catalan government have to force kids to study ONLY in Catalan in schools and learn Spanish as if it was a foreign language even if Catalonia is part of Spain?

 

There are so many things you don't know about...

 

 

 

 

the US (Texas)...

 

The last time I heard Texas was trying to secede was when I was in middle school, and even then, the guys who want Texas to become their own country don't know what the hell they're talking about. The bulk of them are crazy-ass Christian fanatics who think Texas can survive on it's own, both economically and resource-wise.

 

 

Same happens here with people who want independence. Out of 10 independence supporters, 5 just do it for economical reasons.

 

Let's get back on topic please.

 

I Agree, no more OFFTOPIC please.

Edited April 25, 2014 by SouthLand

[Melech]

Dude, I don't know when did you come here, but, honestly i bet you haven't been to all Barcelona's areas like i have. I lived all my life in the same city and this has changed completely. It's even worse if you drive to any small rural area:

 

[iMAGES]

 

Last time was on July 2013. I spent there just a day. Of course I have not been in all Barcelona's areas, but most flags I saw were Spanish. Also, all Catalans I asked told me that they did not support independence. Anyway, separatists are not majority, but they are too noisy.

 

And about the pictures: what a bunch of retarded morons!* The more redneck, more separatist. How sad.

 

*Sorry for the expression, but this fanaticism is pathological.

What right does the Catalan government have to not let students in college take classes in Spanish and only take them in Catalan or English?

 

What right does the Catalan government have to force kids to study ONLY in Catalan in schools and learn Spanish as if it was a foreign language even if Catalonia is part of Spain?

 

There are so many things you don't know about...

 

Actually three days ago I read an article about language rights in Catalonia on the London School of Economics. I think everyone should read it in order to know:

 

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/eurocrisispress/2014/04/22/language-rights-in-catalonia/