Barcelona is looking everyday more like Belfast.

[SouthLand]

But without the terrorism (Yet)...

Even though in this beautiful city there aren't walls that separate communities one apart from the other, there are some areas with more people who want the independence from Spain or people who don't want the independence. Tourists that come to Barcelona are not really aware on how does this issue affect people who live here. Anyway, here is a map i made showing you a close shot on how things look like in my city.

 

The Spanish flag represents that the majority of the people who live in that area don't want independence.

 

The Flag with the star represents that the majority of the people who live in that area want independence.

 

 

 

Now let's look at the differences you can find in some areas of the city:

 

 

Pro-Independence areas:

 

 

 

 

"Independence, YES together we will achieve it"

 

 

 

"President Mas (Artur Mas) we support you"

 

 

"Spain steals from us"

 

 

"It's normal to want a normal country"

 

 

 

 

Pro- Spain Areas

 

 

 

"Spain the excitement of living together" written in Spanish (Above) and Catalan (Below)

 

 

 

 

 

2010 WorldCup celebration in Barcelona:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sometimes, since Barcelona is a "small" city, things like this can happen:

 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2014 by SouthLand

[I cucked Alex Jones]

I don't think you know what Belfast looks like bro.

[lil weasel]

Flag waving? Crowds in the street, not facing machine guns and grenades?

Don't look similar to me...

 

The English (or Americans) aren't in occupation?

Edited April 24, 2014 by lil weasel

[Mr. House]

If I recall from vaguely looking a long time ago, support for Catalonian independence is very high, in the 40-55% range.

[Melech]

You're exaggerating the map. When I went to Barcelona I saw a lot of Spanish flags and just a few Catalan flags with the star.

 

Catalan separatists are insane. They said that Christopher Columbus, Miguel De Cervantes, Leonardo Da Vinci and Erasmus of Rotterdam were Catalan!!! They also think that Catalonia is not only Catalonia, but Valencia, the Balearic Islands, the Pyrénées Orientales (France) and a part of Sardinia (Italy). This is their Great Catalonia (Serbia's Milosevic, anyone?). They invent a history and steal other's history in order to fit with their separatist radical ideals. They also ban Spanish language and indoctrinate children at schools. They are disgusting.

 

An "expert" calling the Chinese navy to threaten Europe, on the Catalan station TV3:

 

 

 

Catalan MP inventing history:

 

 

 

Catalonia has never been a nation. It's Spanish and should never be independent. Anyway, most Catalans are not separatists. There have been massive rallies against independence: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/12/catalan-rally-independence_n_4089112.html

Edited April 24, 2014 by Palikari

[Mr. House]

 

 

Catalonia has never been a nation. It's Spanish and should never be independent. Anyway, most Catalans are not separatists. There have been massive rallies against independence: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/12/catalan-rally-independence_n_4089112.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia

 

In the 10th century the eastern counties of the March of Gothia and the March of Hispania became independent from the Frankish kingdom, uniting as vassals of Barcelona. In 1137 Barcelona and Aragon formed the Crown of Aragon, and Catalonia became a maritime power and the main base for the Crown of Aragon's naval power and expansionism in the Mediterranean. Medieval Catalan literature flourished. Between 1469 and 1516, the King of Aragon and the Queen of Castille married and ruled together their kingdoms, retaining all their distinct institutions, Courts, Constitution. During the Reapers' War (1640–52), Catalonia rebelled against the presence of Castillian army in its territory, becoming a republic under French protection.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Catalonia

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Catalonia

Edited April 24, 2014 by Myron

[Melech]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia

 

In the 10th century the eastern counties of the March of Gothia and the March of Hispania became independent from the Frankish kingdom, uniting as vassals of Barcelona. In 1137 Barcelona and Aragon formed the Crown of Aragon, and Catalonia became a maritime power and the main base for the Crown of Aragon's naval power and expansionism in the Mediterranean. Medieval Catalan literature flourished. Between 1469 and 1516, the King of Aragon and the Queen of Castille married and ruled together their kingdoms, retaining all their distinct institutions, Courts, Constitution. During the Reapers' War (1640–52), Catalonia rebelled against the presence of Castillian army in its territory, becoming a republic under French protection.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Catalonia

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Catalonia

 

I know what Catalonia is, Sherlock. I don't need an explanation. "Crown of Aragon". Where is "Catalonia" as a nation? Catalonia was a small part of the Crown of Aragon, that later became "Spain" along with the Crown of Castille.

 

Catalonia has never been a nation and certainly is not a nation. It's just another part of Spain.

[Mr. House]

I know what Catalonia is, Sherlock. I don't need an explanation. "Crown of Aragon". Where is "Catalonia" as a nation? Catalonia was a small part of the Crown of Aragon, that later became "Spain" along with the Crown of Castille.

 

 

Catalonia has never been a nation and certainly is not a nation. It's just another part of Spain.

 

Says who, the rest of Spain? What right does Madrid have to deny the majority population who want self determination?

[Melech]

If I recall from vaguely looking a long time ago, support for Catalonian independence is very high, in the 40-55% range.

No, it's not. It's at 35-40% range. And only 27% of Catalans voted for separatist parties.

 

Does this mean "very high" to you?

[Mr. House]

 

If I recall from vaguely looking a long time ago, support for Catalonian independence is very high, in the 40-55% range.

No, it's not. It's at 35-40% range. And only 27% of Catalans voted for separatist parties.

 

Does this mean "very high" to you?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence#Studies_on_public_opinion

[Melech]

 

I know what Catalonia is, Sherlock. I don't need an explanation. "Crown of Aragon". Where is "Catalonia" as a nation? Catalonia was a small part of the Crown of Aragon, that later became "Spain" along with the Crown of Castille.

 

 

Catalonia has never been a nation and certainly is not a nation. It's just another part of Spain.

 

Says who, the rest of Spain? What right does Madrid have to deny the majority population who want self determination?

 

No, history, REAL history. Most Catalans don't want independence.

 

Self-determination? It can only be applied to colonies or occupied countries, not to regions of independent, sovereign, democratic and decentralized countries.

 

I guess you're going to demonstrate in support for a referendum in Texas, aren't you? https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/our-states-remain-united

 

PS Are you Catalan?

Edited April 24, 2014 by Palikari

[Mr. House]

 

 

I know what Catalonia is, Sherlock. I don't need an explanation. "Crown of Aragon". Where is "Catalonia" as a nation? Catalonia was a small part of the Crown of Aragon, that later became "Spain" along with the Crown of Castille.

 

 

Catalonia has never been a nation and certainly is not a nation. It's just another part of Spain.

 

Says who, the rest of Spain? What right does Madrid have to deny the majority population who want self determination?

 

No, history, REAL history. Most Catalans don't want independence.

 

Self-determination? It can only be applied to colonies of occupied countries, not to regions of independent, sovereign and decentralized countries.

 

I guess you're going to demonstrate in support for a referendum in Texas, aren't you? https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/our-states-remain-united

 

PS Are you Catalan?

 

Oh, history determines ownership? Well then I guess Italy owns most of Europe then.

 

Most Catalonians do want independence as I showed by mocking you with a wiki link.

[Melech]

 

 

If I recall from vaguely looking a long time ago, support for Catalonian independence is very high, in the 40-55% range.

No, it's not. It's at 35-40% range. And only 27% of Catalans voted for separatist parties.

 

Does this mean "very high" to you?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence#Studies_on_public_opinion

 

Separatist polls are manipulated, and it has been proven: http://www.cronicaglobal.com/ca/notices/2013/12/biaix-nacionalista-a-les-enquestes-del-ceobiaix-nacionalista-a-les-enquestes-del-ceo-3227.php

 

Only 27% of Catalans voted for separatist parties: http://www.gencat.cat/governacio/resultats-parlament2012/09AU/DAU09999CM_L2.htm

 

Only 35% of Catalans would vote "yes" to independence: http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2013/12/14/52accf6561fd3db75c8b4575.html

 

 

 

I know what Catalonia is, Sherlock. I don't need an explanation. "Crown of Aragon". Where is "Catalonia" as a nation? Catalonia was a small part of the Crown of Aragon, that later became "Spain" along with the Crown of Castille.

 

 

Catalonia has never been a nation and certainly is not a nation. It's just another part of Spain.

 

Says who, the rest of Spain? What right does Madrid have to deny the majority population who want self determination?

 

No, history, REAL history. Most Catalans don't want independence.

 

Self-determination? It can only be applied to colonies of occupied countries, not to regions of independent, sovereign and decentralized countries.

 

I guess you're going to demonstrate in support for a referendum in Texas, aren't you? https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/our-states-remain-united

 

PS Are you Catalan?

 

Oh, history determines ownership? Well then I guess Italy owns most of Europe then.

 

Most Catalonians do want independence as I showed by mocking you with a wiki link.

 

No, it's called national sovereignty and principle of territorial integrity (International Law). Do you know what it is? Or it sounds like Chinese to you?

 

Do you support a referendum in Texas, or your double standards don't allow you to?

Edited April 24, 2014 by Palikari

[Alhalish]

@Palikari : It was rigged, you say? Like the Crimean "referendum"? Who would benefit from it?

 

What's with the sudden trend of separatism anyway? First the Venetians, now the Catalonians.

[Melech]

@Palikari : It was rigged, you say? Like the Crimean "referendum"? Who would benefit from it?

 

What's with the sudden trend of separatism anyway? First the Venetians, now the Catalonians.

Yes. The official polls of the Catalan government are manipulated, as it has been proven. The polls made by the Catalan media are manipulated too, because most of the Catalan media belongs to the Catalan government, and the private media gets a lot of money from the Catalan government to be pro-separatist and manipulate the people. Actually there is no free media in Catalonia. The polls made by national newspaper -leftist and rightist- are much more accurate and reflect the reality better. In Catalonia the only ones who benefit from separatism are separarist politicians, their entities and friends.

 

"What's with the sudden trend of separatism anyway?" A very good question! There are separatists in Italy (Padania, Sicilia), France (Corsica), the UK (Scotland), Belgium, the US (Texas)... Almost in every country. I think it is because the people is sated of politicians and thinks building a new country will solve every problem, that they will live in a paradise.

 

"Divide and conquer". I think Catalans and other Spaniards are much better together than divided.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Palikari

[universetwisters]

the US (Texas)...

 

The last time I heard Texas was trying to secede was when I was in middle school, and even then, the guys who want Texas to become their own country don't know what the hell they're talking about. The bulk of them are crazy-ass Christian fanatics who think Texas can survive on it's own, both economically and resource-wise.

[Melech]

The last time I heard Texas was trying to secede was when I was in middle school, and even then, the guys who want Texas to become their own country don't know what the hell they're talking about. The bulk of them are crazy-ass Christian fanatics who think Texas can survive on it's own, both economically and resource-wise.

 

Yeah, very similar to Catalonia.The only difference is that most Catalan separatists are not Christian fanatics but left-wing or even Communist fanatics.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Palikari

[make total destroy]

 

The last time I heard Texas was trying to secede was when I was in middle school, and even then, the guys who want Texas to become their own country don't know what the hell they're talking about. The bulk of them are crazy-ass Christian fanatics who think Texas can survive on it's own, both economically and resource-wise.

 

Yeah, very similar to Catalonia.The only difference is that most Catalan separatists are not Christian fanatics but left-wing or even Communist fanatics.

 

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Edited April 24, 2014 by ShootPeopleNotDope

[Melech]

 

 

The last time I heard Texas was trying to secede was when I was in middle school, and even then, the guys who want Texas to become their own country don't know what the hell they're talking about. The bulk of them are crazy-ass Christian fanatics who think Texas can survive on it's own, both economically and resource-wise.

 

Yeah, very similar to Catalonia.The only difference is that most Catalan separatists are not Christian fanatics but left-wing or even Communist fanatics.

 

You say that like it's a bad thing.

 

Communism, just like nazism, is a bad thing. A very bad thing. Communism has only brought hunger, oppression and more than 100 million dead people.

 

Look at Cuba and North Korea. They are paradises, aren't they?

[universetwisters]

 

 

 

The last time I heard Texas was trying to secede was when I was in middle school, and even then, the guys who want Texas to become their own country don't know what the hell they're talking about. The bulk of them are crazy-ass Christian fanatics who think Texas can survive on it's own, both economically and resource-wise.

 

Yeah, very similar to Catalonia.The only difference is that most Catalan separatists are not Christian fanatics but left-wing or even Communist fanatics.

 

You say that like it's a bad thing.

 

Communism, just like nazism, is a bad thing. A very bad thing. Communism has only brought hunger, oppression and more than 100 million dead people.

 

Look at Cuba and North Korea. They are paradises, aren't they?

 

If my memory serves me, East Germany was one of the most successful satellite states of the USSR, both economic and social wise.

[Abel.]

 

 

The last time I heard Texas was trying to secede was when I was in middle school, and even then, the guys who want Texas to become their own country don't know what the hell they're talking about. The bulk of them are crazy-ass Christian fanatics who think Texas can survive on it's own, both economically and resource-wise.

 

Yeah, very similar to Catalonia.The only difference is that most Catalan separatists are not Christian fanatics but left-wing or even Communist fanatics.

 

You say that like it's a bad thing.

 

 

To be fair, extremism of any kind generally has a detrimental impact.

 

 

 

Ultimately though, self-determination has to come first. It's a shame to see societies divided in this way and I hope that a satisfying outcome for all involved will be found.

 

I think a compromise between patriotism and desire for national autonomy, and pragmatism, always needs to be found in cases like these. Wales (using an example I know well) manages this pretty well. Parts of the south are very anglicized, but mid Wales, north and West Wales retain a high number of Welsh speakers. Even in the English-speaking south, Welsh pride endures with gusto. However, we're content with being a part of the UK as we get decent representation and economically independence could not work for Wales. In any case I can't imagine independence ever gaining the same support in Wales as it does in other places simply as being part of the UK is more beneficial than detrimental for us.

 

 

Twisters: Whilst I agree with you, I'm not sure if that fact really has any bearing on the discussion. Yes, East Germany was one of the most successful satellite states, but that's only because many of the others were incredibly impoverished and faced frequent social upheaval as a consequence:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Rising_of_1956

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring

 

I don't think that life in East Germany, or any satellite state, was particularly liberating to say the least.

 

If you want an example of socialism succeeding, you need look no further than the south Indian state of Kerala, which is famed for its successful social policies which encourage the emancipation and education of women and improving literacy rates. I've never actually been to Kerala so I've no experience first hand, but everything I've read of it seems to hold the place in high regard, at least compared to other Indian states.

 

 

We need to keep in mind that Kerala is a small Indian state, not a western country, so to suggest that large western nations would respond as well as it has to its socialist policies would be a tenuous suggestion at best. Communism might be good on paper, but it's often a very different thing in practice.

Edited April 24, 2014 by elanman

[Melech]

 

 

 

 

The last time I heard Texas was trying to secede was when I was in middle school, and even then, the guys who want Texas to become their own country don't know what the hell they're talking about. The bulk of them are crazy-ass Christian fanatics who think Texas can survive on it's own, both economically and resource-wise.

 

Yeah, very similar to Catalonia.The only difference is that most Catalan separatists are not Christian fanatics but left-wing or even Communist fanatics.

 

You say that like it's a bad thing.

 

Communism, just like nazism, is a bad thing. A very bad thing. Communism has only brought hunger, oppression and more than 100 million dead people.

 

Look at Cuba and North Korea. They are paradises, aren't they?

 

If my memory serves me, East Germany was one of the most successful satellite states of the USSR, both economic and social wise.

 

Yeah! That's why tens of East Germans died trying to ecape to West Germany trought the wall. Capitalism is not great, but it's communism that needs to build walls to prevent people from leaving.

 

Go to Cuba and be hungry!

[make total destroy]

 

Communism, just like nazism, is a bad thing. A very bad thing. Communism has only brought hunger, oppression and more than 100 million dead people.

 

Look at Cuba and North Korea. They are paradises, aren't they?

 

I mean, I guess communism is just like Nazism, and Cuba and North Korea are communist.

 

If you're an ahistorical, willfully ignorant moron.

Edited April 24, 2014 by ShootPeopleNotDope

[Melech]

Ultimately though, self-determination has to come first. It's a shame to see societies divided in this way and I hope that a satisfying outcome for all involved will be found.

 

Catalans approved 1978's Constitution by overwhelming majority, a Constitution that states the "indivisivility of the Spanish Nation", as most world's constitutions.

 

But "self-determination" only can be applied to colonies and occupied countries, not regions of independent, sovereign, democratic and decentralized states like Spain.

[universetwisters]

Yeah! That's why tens of East Germans died trying to ecape to West Germany trought the wall. Capitalism is not great, but it's communism that needs to build walls to prevent people from leaving.

 

 

Go to Cuba and be hungry!

 

 

You're missing my point. It's not on how many people escape, it's how well off they were. Not all communism is entirely bad. Of course, it has it's flaws, but so does capitalism. You can't generalize every communist country out there as being an expy of Cuba or North Korea. If that were the case, then which country will you compare every capitalist country to?

[Melech]

 

 

Communism, just like nazism, is a bad thing. A very bad thing. Communism has only brought hunger, oppression and more than 100 million dead people.

 

Look at Cuba and North Korea. They are paradises, aren't they?

 

I mean, I guess communism is just like Nazism, and Cuba and North Korea are communist.

 

If you're an ahistorical moron.

 

No, Cuba and North Korea are not communist, they are capitalist and follow the Austrian School of Economics' teachings... Of course they are communist! What are they if they are not communist?!

 

A commie calling others "moron".

You're missing my point. It's not on how many people escape, it's how well off they were. Not all communism is entirely bad. Of course, it has it's flaws, but so does capitalism. You can't generalize every communist country out there as being an expy of Cuba or North Korea. If that were the case, then which country will you compare every capitalist country to?

 

If they were so good, then why did they escape? Why was the wall built and all citizens trying to escape were shot dead?

 

Are you comparing freedom and democracy's mistakes with the "mistakes" of a liberticidal totalitarian regime?

Edited April 24, 2014 by Palikari

[make total destroy]

 

 

 

Communism, just like nazism, is a bad thing. A very bad thing. Communism has only brought hunger, oppression and more than 100 million dead people.

 

Look at Cuba and North Korea. They are paradises, aren't they?

 

I mean, I guess communism is just like Nazism, and Cuba and North Korea are communist.

 

If you're an ahistorical moron.

 

No, Cuba and North Korea are not communist, they are capitalist and follow the Austrian School of Economics' teachings... Of course they are communist! What are they if they are not communist?!

 

A commie calling others "moron".

 

They're capitalist states, complete with a working class, and a ruling class. Communism is by definition a stateless, classless, moneyless society in which private property (i.e. capital) is abolished, and the means of production held in common.

[universetwisters]

 

You're missing my point. It's not on how many people escape, it's how well off they were. Not all communism is entirely bad. Of course, it has it's flaws, but so does capitalism. You can't generalize every communist country out there as being an expy of Cuba or North Korea. If that were the case, then which country will you compare every capitalist country to?

 

If they were so good, then why did they scape; why was the wall built and all citizens trying to scape were shot dead?

 

Go read a history book or watch a documentary. Find where it says that "every citizen in the GDR tried to escape over the Berlin wall", and then get back to me.

[Melech]

Go read a history book or watch a documentary. Find where it says that "every citizen in the GDR tried to escape over the Berlin wall", and then get back to me.

 

I was very good at history on high school, I have read books and watched documentaries.

 

When did I say that every DDR citizen tried to scape? Millions wanted and tried, tens were killed.

They're capitalist states, complete with a working class, and a ruling class. Communism is by definition a stateless, classless, moneyless society in which private property (i.e. capital) is abolished, and the means of production held in common.

 

Social equality and communism are an utopia, They can't be carried out. The USSR, China and ALL communist countries. You repeat the theory like a parrot, but you don't talk about the practical consequences of that.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Palikari

[Abel.]

Twisters, I see your point, but I think you're idealizing how things were back then. No, not every citizen tried to escape the DDR, but in many cases this was due to the inherent danger in doing so.

 

Sure, some people might have enjoyed life in the DDR--employment for women was good there, though this was hardly due to any progressive stance on the government's part. However, to imply that the DDR was some sort of socialist paradise is a little misguided if you ask me. Many defections were made before doing so became incredibly dangerous, in particular prior to the construction of the wall, and even afterwards some people risked their lives to leave.