Was Smoke forced to betray the Families?

[Chips237]

In the mission "The Green Sabre", Pulaski mentions Smoke doing exactly what he was told, and he "learned that lesson" a long time ago.

During his death later on, he mentions having no choice but to betray the Families.

 

I can tell he didn't do it because of the drugs. But why did he do it? To get famous? Wasn't he a high-ranking member in the GSF even before Carl left?

Did CRASH kill a relative of his to get him to work with them? Or did HE kill someone from CRASH/LSPD and worked with Tenpenny as long as he wasn't exposed?

 

I am only asking this question as I am interested in making a mission pack (DYOM) about his betrayal.

 

[lil weasel]

Speculation: Yes, and through his weakness he developed the love of money that it brought him.

[latigreblue]

When Carl came back to LS, the Families definitely were in decline. Tenpenny's plan to take over the drug trade didn't happen overnight. Smoke wanted money and power and this probably was the only way he could see that happening.

[Wolf247]

Nawh, I think him and Ryder are traitors. But he did it because Grove was falling off, and Big Smoke and Ryder wanted to be Mr. Big. But he might have done it for control, because Sweet and Carl didn't want to have anything with drugs.

[lil weasel]

Sweet was getting into crack, and CJ admitted to using weed. So it can't be said they didn't want anything to with drugs.

[Wolf247]

Sweet was getting into crack, and CJ admitted to using weed. So it can't be said they didn't want anything to with drugs.

Well yeah, but they didn't want to do anything with it, plus weed isn't really considered a drug, because you can't die of it, you just get addicted and stoned. But anyways, Crack was forced upon Sweet by his new GF, and if he took it, he probably couldn't stop using it.

[lil weasel]

Don't confuse today's thinking on weed with what was going on in the early 90s (nearly a quarter of a century ago).

Yes, you can die from using it, driving under the influence (DUI) results may be just as deadly as drinking.

[Jeansowaty]

I think that Smoke wanted to get all rich and sheez but Ryder might've been forced. Seeing as he was really a loyal gangsta of the Families before his betrayal, it might be possible that Smoke got him to do his dirty work just shortly before The Green Sabre.

[Chips237]

I think that Smoke wanted to get all rich and sheez but Ryder might've been forced. Seeing as he was really a loyal gangsta of the Families before his betrayal, it might be possible that Smoke got him to do his dirty work just shortly before The Green Sabre.

It can be clearly seen in the Introduction that Ryder wasn't forced. Smoke just convinced him and he agreed, it may be possible someone overheard this and told CJ (but not Sweet), which probably explains why he wasn't surprised when Ryder betrayed him.

 

There isn't really much back story of Ryder apart from what he says, so it cannot be confirmed that he was loyal to the Families.

[Wolf247]

I think that Smoke wanted to get all rich and sheez but Ryder might've been forced. Seeing as he was really a loyal gangsta of the Families before his betrayal, it might be possible that Smoke got him to do his dirty work just shortly before The Green Sabre.

 

Ryder was kinda retarded, and he was yelling that he's smarter than all of you fools.

[Jeansowaty]

Agreed. Well I emphased it wrong, I didn't mean him to be forced. I meant him to be convinced by Smoke a lot to do that. But there is one thing I can't get. Ryder has 3 models, but he still appears in green when he dies. Same with Smoke. They could of retextured his clothes from End of the Line...

[Chips237]

Agreed. Well I emphased it wrong, I didn't mean him to be forced. I meant him to be convinced by Smoke a lot to do that. But there is one thing I can't get. Ryder has 3 models, but he still appears in green when he dies. Same with Smoke. They could of retextured his clothes from End of the Line...

They might have still respected the Families even after their betrayal.

[markusizr]

ryder and smoke planned to kill sweet as seen on introduction

[thafablifee46]

I think smoke betrayed GSF because he was just greedy , Ryder lost his mind because he's been smoking pcp or sherm ( whatever it is in the game ) and he was easy to manipulate by smoke ..

[Deus Ex]

Nope. It was a choice he made, his love for the money, his greed. He betrayed the Families because he wanted to become rich, to become something.

Maybe Tennpenny influenced him a bit here and there, but it was his choice at the end.

[The Byzantine Empire]

The Grove Street Gang was too weak, Ryder and Smoke betrayed the Grove because they are hunger to power and money, they are not romantic gangsters like CJ or Sweet, they are opportunists. They couldn't satisfied with the weak GSF.The Ballas had the power and they chose Ballas.

 

Ryder is a nature asshole, he has a potantiel traitor personality. Smoke is little more principled, but not much, he is also traitor and has a weak opportunist personality.

[poland stronk]

In my opinion Smoke wanted to get away from the hood. Just like CJ who ran away to LC he was also trying but with crooked cops that promised he would earn millions. So it was a sweet deal to have crack palace overseen by person who knows many gangsters in LS in exchange for fair cut. And Ryder had his brain f*cked up from smoking chronic so it wasn't hard to persuade him with cheesy story about dollar, respect and dangerous cops and thugs so he agreed. And both of them had nothing against drugs and prostitution so it was like "why not"?

Edited May 24, 2014 by poland stronk

[Spadge]

Some people are just oppurtunitists, and some are stupid. End of story.

[Chips237]

I don't think Smoke was an opportunist. If he was so interested in the drugs/cash, he would have done it long ago.

[The Truth '92]

Here's my understanding/theory of his betrayal. I apologize for the long post.

 

It is shown in the beginning of

that earlier in 1992, while CJ was still living in Liberty City, Officers Frank Tenpenny and Eddie Pulaski went to talk to Big Smoke. They were not at his house in Idlewood however, but at Ganton Courts across from the Ganton Gym (see photo).

 

After coming out of one of the apartment buildings (seemingly the one shown in the above image), Tenpenny said "I knew that fat f*ck would see it our way," to which Pulaski replied "always do, once they see the choices we're offering." Pulaski then asked Tenpenny what they were going to do about Officer Hernandez joining their patrol with them. Tenpenny replied "exactly the same thing as last time; he's either going to play our way, or he's gonna have a problem like that oversized asshole back there," referring to Big Smoke.

 

This suggests that Big Smoke was coerced by Officers Tenpenny and Pulaski, and that he reluctantly agreed to whatever they were ordering him to do.

 

The next morning, Big Smoke went to Ryder's house on Grove street, and the two were seen already talking in the kitchen. Ryder said "the way I see it man, I need to be in charge of my destiny homie." Smoke replied "this way, you will be homie. This is all about destiny." So Big Smoke was coerced by Tenpenny and Pulaski, and brought it up to Ryder, who seemed to see it the same way as Smoke.

 

With Ryder now on board, Smoke continued: "now the way I see it, we don't have a choice. Ain't nothing to feel bad about; you put a gun to a brotha's head, brotha's gonna do what he's told, no matter if he's a fool or a wise man. You don't want a bullet in your brain. But if you can make it work, and make some benjamins whil you're at it, [laughs] then that's cool." So the night before, Officers Tenpenny and Pulaski forced Big Smoke's hand about something, to which he was reluctant enough about to have one, or both officers put a gun to his head. Before going to talk to Ryder about it, he thought long and hard about what he was being forced to do, and though he started out reluctant, he soon began to see an opportunity -- his own rise to power, even while under duress.

 

A few days later, a game of dice was being played in the cul-de-sac on Grove Street, with Big Smoke, Sweet, and a few unnamed Grove Street gangmembers, as well as OG Loc. Big Smoke said to Sweet "hey fool, we're losing the streets, man." Sweet replied "nah, we're just standing by our principles, homie," referring to Sweet's (as the leader of the Grove Street Families) resolute refusal to involve his gang with the drug scene going on in Los Santos. Big Smoke argued his case: "but our principles are making us bitches, man! Every day, Ballas get stronger, and you and I get weaker; you and I get poorer man!" Sweet simply replied that it would all blow over; "it always does."

 

So even though Big Smoke had begun his betrayal under duress, and later accepted it after forseeing his rise to power, he still tried to plead his case to Sweet; that Grove Street's only way of becoming the strongest gang in Los Santos again was to enter the drug dealing scene, which Sweet refused, staying true to his and his gang's principles. I believe that it was at that moment that Big Smoke's betrayal of Sweet and the Grove Street Families was cemented -- Big Smoke was ordered by Officer Tenpenny to organize a hit on Sweet to remove him from power. With Sweet then dead, Big Smoke could either disband the GSF or involve them in the drug scene, as well as Tenpenny ensuring Big Smoke's ascension to power as the leader of the drug operation in Los Santos that was making Tenpenny loads of money through extortion, and which would also financially secure Big Smoke, making him a household name on the Los Santos streets. In betraying the Families, Smoke would also have to secretly align with the Ballas, the Families' arch rivals, and the gang that Officer Tenpenny was also allied with.

 

Several days later, Officer Tenpenny is seen in Market, Los Santos, talking on the phone to Big Smoke. Tenpenny says "listen to me, son: I don't give a f*ck about you, I don't give a f*ck about your principles, I don't give a f*ck about your friends. People who get in my way get f*cked with. Now, you got paid. You took the money." So Big Smoke had already been paid for organizing the hit on Sweet. Tenpenny continued "I'm trying to set you up for life here, boy, and you're inadequate...do what we agreed...this week!"

 

At some point that week, Big Smoke did what he agreed to do: organized the hit on Sweet. Late one night, a Green Sabre with two Balla gangmembers (who Big Smoke had secretly aligned with without Sweet's knowledge) drove down Grove Street, and into the cul-de-sac. As they approached Beverly Johnson's house, the Balla in the passenger's seat opened fire with an automatic weapon, hitting the house with bullets, intending to kill Sweet, who was believed to be inside the house. He was in fact across the cul-de-sac at the time of the shooting, and CJ's and his mother Beverly was killed instead. The car tore off into the night, with Sweet and his sister Kendl running into the house to find their mother had been killed in the shooting.

Sweet then called CJ, who was living in Liberty City at the time, and informed them of their mother's death. A few days later, CJ arrived in Los Santos.

 

Another thing to note: at the end of the mission Drive Thru, Big Smoke asks you to take him home. You take him to his house in Idlewood (not Ganton Courts, where he was presumably living when Tenpenny and Pulaski went to talk to him at the beginning of The Introduction. CJ asks him why he "moved out the Grove." Big Smoke says that he "got some money from his aunt." I believe that to be a blatant lie, and that he bought the house with the money he received from Officer Tenpenny for organizing the failed murder of Sweet during The Introduction.

 

End rant.

[Chips237]

So tldr, Tenpenny paid Smoke to betray the families?

[The Truth '92]

So tldr, Tenpenny paid Smoke to betray the families?

Yes sir. Watch

. He mentions on the phone to Big Smoke that Smoke had already taken the money from Tenpenny.

 

E: If you plan on making a mission pack, make sure you do your homework. All of the information I posted is gathered from The Introduction, and good to know if you want any depth to your mission pack. Nobody likes a half assed mission. Good luck.

Edited May 24, 2014 by The Truth '92

[Sawnek]

I'm a little rusty with the San Andreas storyline, but I re-watched the Introduction lately.

 

The theory The Truth put forward seems the most likely. While Officer Tenpenny coerced Big Smoke into betraying Grove Street, we can see in the dice scene that Big Smoke is trying to convince Sweet to involve the gang into the drug trade, perhaps by doing so he could go back and tell Tenpenny that there's no point of killing Sweet since he's convinced the gang to get involved with drugs. Much like in the storyline, Sweet doesn't want anything to do with the drug trade.

 

As for convincing Ryder, from the one scene we're shown in the Introduction, it just seems like he's easy to convince.

 

I believe that Big Smoke was forced to betray the families, from the calls that we hear from Tenpenny in the Introduction, it seems like Smoke is reluctant to betray his family at first. When the money began coming in, as well as the power, he didn't care anymore. Later on in the game, the WCTR News announces Big Smoke as a 'Street Good Guy', who also opens up his orphanage.

.

[Chips237]

 

So tldr, Tenpenny paid Smoke to betray the families?

Yes sir. Watch

. He mentions on the phone to Big Smoke that Smoke had already taken the money from Tenpenny.

 

E: If you plan on making a mission pack, make sure you do your homework. All of the information I posted is gathered from The Introduction, and good to know if you want any depth to your mission pack. Nobody likes a half assed mission. Good luck.

 

Someone beat me to it though, so no need for a mission pack.