Dead or Alive?

[Jvaz615]

Ok I'm not one for conspiracy theories but something has been bugging me. I've gone back and played through IV & TLaD and this is probably just wishful thinking but what if Fitz isn't dead? In "No Way on the Subway" Niko chases 2 bikers. A fat bald dude and another guy. The fat guy is allegedly Fitz. When we kill them, one can't be identified because he was crushes by the train. The fat guy is identified as Fitz. I didn't think of it much until I did that mission in TLaD. We see Jim in the alley and with him is...fat bald guy. This was probably just an oversight by Rockstar but what if he took the 2 million we never hear about again and fled with his wife and kid? He very easily could have cut the 2 bikers in on the money but they didn't get it because they're dead. Like I said, it's probably nothing but it would be interesting if Jim isn't dead, hears about what happened to Johnny and comes out of hiding for revenge. Wouldn't be the first person to come out of hiding when they were supposedly dead...

[Drunken Cowboy]

Yeah. We've been discussing this in other threads.

The Jim in GTA 4 is another biker who's with Jim in TLaD.

Two million is a lotta money, you can go places with it.

The two mil is never accounted for.

Jim's wife is pushing him to leave the club, and he just had a baby.

The club's falling apart and most members are turning states, possibly WITSEC for Jim and his family.

Johnny asked Jim if he'd put the club before his family, but Jim never really gives a concise answer.

The club has political and media connections through Tom Stubbs, he could have arranged Jim's disappearence.

 

If Rockstar gave a f*ck (which is quite apparent they don't in GTA V) Jim's absense could easily be explained.

[Jvaz615]

Yeah. We've been discussing this in other threads.

The Jim in GTA 4 is another biker who's with Jim in TLaD.

Two million is a lotta money, you can go places with it.

The two mil is never accounted for.

Jim's wife is pushing him to leave the club, and he just had a baby.

The club's falling apart and most members are turning states, possibly WITSEC for Jim and his family.

Johnny asked Jim if he'd put the club before his family, but Jim never really gives a concise answer.

The club has political and media connections through Tom Stubbs, he could have arranged Jim's disappearence.

 

If Rockstar gave a f*ck (which is quite apparent they don't in GTA V) Jim's absense could easily be explained.

I see it as a possibility that Jim saw a way out and took it. He loved Johnny but he loves his wife and kid more. We already saw how M went into an off the books Witsec program with Dave. No reason Jim couldn't do the same. Rockstar could do something great with this

[Peachrocks]

Ah my favorite conspiracy theory but yes this explanation does fill a lot of plot holes quite nicely which is why I like it.

 

I admit it, I've written small amounts of would be material on this theory. Will I ever show anyone? Meh... maybe. There was a thread I made on this.

 

http://gtaforums.com/topic/653638-a-dlc-idea-for-gta-v-based-on-jim-and-angus/

 

I've developed many of the base ideas significantly since then but meh .

[Black & White]

Ok I'm not one for conspiracy theories but something has been bugging me. I've gone back and played through IV & TLaD and this is probably just wishful thinking but what if Fitz isn't dead? In "No Way on the Subway" Niko chases 2 bikers. A fat bald dude and another guy. The fat guy is allegedly Fitz. When we kill them, one can't be identified because he was crushes by the train. The fat guy is identified as Fitz. I didn't think of it much until I did that mission in TLaD. We see Jim in the alley and with him is...fat bald guy. This was probably just an oversight by Rockstar but what if he took the 2 million we never hear about again and fled with his wife and kid? He very easily could have cut the 2 bikers in on the money but they didn't get it because they're dead. Like I said, it's probably nothing but it would be interesting if Jim isn't dead, hears about what happened to Johnny and comes out of hiding for revenge. Wouldn't be the first person to come out of hiding when they were supposedly dead...

 

Jim's death makes sense in both games. It's just the fact that Jim in GTA IV looks nothing like the Jim we knew. I think Rockstar were lazy and just went with it. It saddens me a little bit. As for the conspiracy theory, it makes sense, but Jim was killed.

[Jvaz615]

Ah my favorite conspiracy theory but yes this explanation does fill a lot of plot holes quite nicely which is why I like it.

 

I admit it, I've written small amounts of would be material on this theory. Will I ever show anyone? Meh... maybe. There was a thread I made on this.

 

http://gtaforums.com/topic/653638-a-dlc-idea-for-gta-v-based-on-jim-and-angus/

 

I've developed many of the base ideas significantly since then but meh .

Wow that's really well done. Kudos sir. I know nothing will ever come from this but it's something that bugs me along with what the hell ever happened to Angus. Shame that they sh*t all over the Lost. There was so much potential there

[Peachrocks]

Jim's death makes sense in both games. It's just the fact that Jim in GTA IV looks nothing like the Jim we knew. I think Rockstar were lazy and just went with it. It saddens me a little bit. As for the conspiracy theory, it makes sense, but Jim was killed.

 

 

It makes sense in terms of the theme the story was trying to give but there's more than the fact that TLAD Jim does not look like GTA IV Jim. The big one is the missing money. It is never seen or mentioned again despite being a pretty critical plot point.

 

Rockstar changed his appearance probably to make it easier to give Jim character because the main characters in TLAD are not biker stereotypes which was sort of a key theme but GTA IV Jim looks like a biker stereotype.

 

I ultimately agree that there's a whole lot of nothing and that we'll never see Jim alive or dead again and won't be able to confirm one way or the other but it's an extremely loose end and this is a logical explanation.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Peachrocks

[Jvaz615]

 

 

Jim's death makes sense in both games. It's just the fact that Jim in GTA IV looks nothing like the Jim we knew. I think Rockstar were lazy and just went with it. It saddens me a little bit. As for the conspiracy theory, it makes sense, but Jim was killed.

 

It makes sense in terms of the theme the story was trying to give but there's more than the fact that TLAD Jim does not look like GTA IV Jim. The big one is the missing money. It is never seen or mentioned again despite being a pretty critical plot .

Not to mention that Niko chases 2 bikers...fat guy and mute. Mute gets creamed by a train and is unidentifiable and fat guy gets identified as Jim yet fat guy is in the cutscene in TLaD with Jim

[Jvaz615]

Just now I played "This sh*ts Cursed". That cutscene after getting back to clubhouse...something is up. Jim looked nervous when Brian was talking about Johnny being a snitch and then Jim busts into Brians face and cuts him off from continuing what he was saying.

[Peachrocks]

On my first playthrough I thought Jim was the insider until he was 'killed' but now I strongly doubt it. Jim also admits the FIB contacted him but told them to go f*ck themselves which may or may not be true but it's not important. That said this cutscene intrigued me.

 

Brian is the insider Agent Jones refers to at first after Johnny attempts to sell the heroin to Charlie. There's a truck ton of evidence pointing directly at him. Billy was only a go to after Brian was killed.

 

Brian says later that they contacted him too and told him that Johnny was a rat. Brian being the simple idiot he is believed him and the FIB were clearly attempting to cause chaos in the ranks of The Lost and succeeded. Based on the police files on Johnny they knew that the leadership situation wasn't exactly certain so feeding false information to an idiot member with influence would have high probability of causing chaos.

 

This sh*ts cursed also has a very hard question shot directly at Brian that he never answers. What the hell was he doing when Billy was arrested? Johnny asks him twice and he never answers and attempts to blame Johnny for it despite having no grounds for doing so because he was with Billy not Johnny.

 

It seems Brian was seriously attempting to become President of the Lost MC by betraying Billy and blaming Johnny for it. I don't understand how a guy like Brian could get so much pull in The Lost in the first place but whatever...

 

When Johnny comes to kill Brian/flush him out, Brian is seen talking on the phone about trying to avoid a prison term and how he'd accept something, I can't remember what it was but he's clearly making a bargain with someone.

[Jvaz615]

On my first playthrough I thought Jim was the insider until he was 'killed' but now I strongly doubt it. Jim also admits the FIB contacted him but told them to go f*ck themselves which may or may not be true but it's not important. That said this cutscene intrigued me.

 

Brian is the insider Agent Jones refers to at first after Johnny attempts to sell the heroin to Charlie. There's a truck ton of evidence pointing directly at him. Billy was only a go to after Brian was killed.

 

Brian says later that they contacted him too and told him that Johnny was a rat. Brian being the simple idiot he is believed him and the FIB were clearly attempting to cause chaos in the ranks of The Lost and succeeded. Based on the police files on Johnny they knew that the leadership situation wasn't exactly certain so feeding false information to an idiot member with influence would have high probability of causing chaos.

 

This sh*ts cursed also has a very hard question shot directly at Brian that he never answers. What the hell was he doing when Billy was arrested? Johnny asks him twice and he never answers and attempts to blame Johnny for it despite having no grounds for doing so because he was with Billy not Johnny.

 

It seems Brian was seriously attempting to become President of the Lost MC by betraying Billy and blaming Johnny for it. I don't understand how a guy like Brian could get so much pull in The Lost in the first place but whatever...

 

When Johnny comes to kill Brian/flush him out, Brian is seen talking on the phone about trying to avoid a prison term and how he'd accept something, I can't remember what it was but he's clearly making a bargain with someone.

Yeah that cutscene is really making me think. I'm gonna play it more tomorrow and see if I can pick up on anything else. There's something there...whether it be something Rockstar were gonna do and scrapped or if it's something we might see resolved one day

[Ledsbourne]

I think the plot of TLaD looks better with Jim getting killed, however there's indeed a lot of evidence backing up you conspiracy theory. The bald guy who is supposedly Jim in GTA IV also spawns in Collector's Item along with Jim which is quite a hint there might be something else to that story. Also, Johnny meets Jim and bald guy in the same alley where Niko later encounters them - what would be the point of Jim going back there from tortures served to him by Ray? Another thing - Jim texts Johnny to get backup from Terry and Clay after Ashley tells him there's mafia goons after him - as much as a badass he was, I can't see him typing on his phone while being chased on train tracks by some maniac. It also doesn't seem that Jim contacted anyone of the Lost, as Johnny is told the bad news by Ashley, who got the info from Boccino. It all makes a lot of sense in fact.

 

Perhaps we will never know what really happened there, but I think that leaving his fate ambiguous with hints pointing towards the less obvious makes the whole TLaD story far more interesting. In fact I'd find it quite disappointing if we get some answer for that "in our face" like Jim coming to avenge Johnny or something. His fate left like this is far better, same like with Joe from Mafia II after the end of the game.

[Black & White]

 

Jim's death makes sense in both games. It's just the fact that Jim in GTA IV looks nothing like the Jim we knew. I think Rockstar were lazy and just went with it. It saddens me a little bit. As for the conspiracy theory, it makes sense, but Jim was killed.

 

 

It makes sense in terms of the theme the story was trying to give but there's more than the fact that TLAD Jim does not look like GTA IV Jim. The big one is the missing money. It is never seen or mentioned again despite being a pretty critical plot point.

 

Rockstar changed his appearance probably to make it easier to give Jim character because the main characters in TLAD are not biker stereotypes which was sort of a key theme but GTA IV Jim looks like a biker stereotype.

 

I ultimately agree that there's a whole lot of nothing and that we'll never see Jim alive or dead again and won't be able to confirm one way or the other but it's an extremely loose end and this is a logical explanation.

 

 

Didn't Johnny have the money? I remember being completely rich after the ending. Johnny stole the money from Tony Prince, Evan and Luis Lopez. From then on, the club were rich. I thought Phil Bell and Ray Boccino wanted several bikers dead, just to calm down the whole situation and to make the Lost MC think who they are dealing with.

 

Jim is ultimately killed, no doubt. Nearly every criminal organisation were involved in the diamonds deal. No way that Jim wouldn't call Johnny or wouldn't get taunted by the other crime groups for having the entire cash. After Jim's death, a news report claims that Jim (a close friend of Johnny Klebitz) and an unknown biker, were murdered.

[Peachrocks]

 

Didn't Johnny have the money? I remember being completely rich after the ending. Johnny stole the money from Tony Prince, Evan and Luis Lopez. From then on, the club were rich. I thought Phil Bell and Ray Boccino wanted several bikers dead, just to calm down the whole situation and to make the Lost MC think who they are dealing with.

 

Jim is ultimately killed, no doubt. Nearly every criminal organisation were involved in the diamonds deal. No way that Jim wouldn't call Johnny or wouldn't get taunted by the other crime groups for having the entire cash. After Jim's death, a news report claims that Jim (a close friend of Johnny Klebitz) and an unknown biker, were murdered.

No, Johnny did not have the money. He stole the diamonds from Evan not the money, the money was taken from the libertonian and was last seen in Jim's possession. It is never mentioned or heard of again.

 

The thing is that the organisations involved were more focused on the diamonds than the money and were busy pointing fingers at one another for the debacle. Also remember The Lost had political connections in Stubbs, so if Jim really wanted to disappear and had 2 million in unmarked bills, it'd be pretty easy to arrange.

 

I guess the honest truth is I don't like retcons. Jim's gta iv appearance is drastically different and there's no in story explanation that possibly works for that except for the fact that this guy wasn't Jim and was merely identified as Jim when he was killed to complete the deception.

[LancerG2]

Guys at the end of TLAD it mentions on a Phone call to Angus Johnny sends money to Jim's wife and kids, just wondering, if Johnny did send money to Jim's wife and Jim was living undercover by your above theory then wouldn't he be seen by Johnny?

[Peachrocks]

He says that he intends to send the money not that he actually did or how that arrangement turned out.

 

Furthermore if Jim died Jackie being as Jim described would be pretty furious with Johnny and wouldn't accept money from him and want nothing to do with him. If Jim didn't die, Jackie would have to put on an act as though he did if Johnny contacted her.

[Jeansowaty]

Heh, all these theories now made me think on how Jim would reappear in a GTA Game, confirming that he was in WitSec and that he got a new life. Like, Jim reappears in Vice City, murdering Trevor and doing hits on banks with Angus. Not saying that this might be true but it has some kind of connection. Rockstar can do everything they want with their games, so it's completely ambigious about what really happened to Jim.

[aquahaze2]

When I think about this, it makes perfect f*cking sence! It would pretty much be what michael did just in a less backstabbing way and I pry that rockstar us planning something. Also the one person that angus wqs closest to was jim witch could explain why he isent with Johnny......am I feeling hopeful?

[Peachrocks]

When I think about this, it makes perfect f*cking sence! It would pretty much be what michael did just in a less backstabbing way and I pry that rockstar us planning something. Also the one person that angus wqs closest to was jim witch could explain why he isent with Johnny......am I feeling hopeful?

It does doesn't it? Still short of fanfiction, I wouldn't get too hopeful.

[Grievous]

Honestly though, I find that the story told from the perspective of someone, either Johnny himself or other members of the Lost, looking for Jim and believing there is a possibility for Jim to still be alive, to be a more touching and believable story rather than the story being told from perspective of Jim himself.

 

I don't know, I guess it's a consequence of seeing so many fans looking into this possibility despite the fragility of it, it just sounds like a more interesting story than simply switching the perspective to Jim and recounting a 'how it all actually happened' angle.

[Terrell]

Johnny didn't seem as sad as you'd think he would be to hear that Jim was dead. Jim was the one who was talking most likely. Or Johnny could be a secret villian as there is un explained holes in tlad story of how billy for caught. There is no clear representation of what happened in tlad 2 million, or if Johnny is really dead or not. ( which would kind of ruin Trevors character as that is what his whole character is built off of.) If he were not dead, but it is hard to believe 100% that he is dead even if you want to. Rock Star better wrap up it's holes because what is a story or series with unexplained plot holes that never get answered?

[grasscid]

No, you already hear on the news that the body was identified as Jim Fitzgerald in both GTA IV and TLAD.

End of discussion.

Unless there just so happens to be another Lost member named Jim Fitzgerald that none of the other members knew about, I wouldn't chalk it up to anything more than inconsistency.

[Peachrocks]

No, you already hear on the news that the body was identified as Jim Fitzgerald in both GTA IV and TLAD.

End of discussion.

Unless there just so happens to be another Lost member named Jim Fitzgerald that none of the other members knew about, I wouldn't chalk it up to anything more than inconsistency.

 

Yeah because nobody else was ever identified as being dead but actually not. Oh wait...

 

Like we've said it is PROBABLY inconsistency but it'd be nice if there was more to it than three different major oversights with no explanation.

[Terrell]

Jim is alive. You could say "But they just made a character model error." Ok. Jim is seen on his zombie next to the 240lb fat biker. Then when we arrive with Niko, we see the same bald big fat biker, but then we also see a random lost m.c member with long ponytail brown hair who gets hit by the train. Jim is supposedly the fat white biker.

 

So you're saying that Rockstar on accident replaced Jim with the fat biker, and replaced the fat biker with a random lost m.c member who is unidentifiable? So they mess up majorally right? Hmmm...hmm....hmmm..ok. So they cover up their error, identify the fat bald biker as Jim Fitzgerald then right? K...... so then the dialogue is a bit off for me. Jim wouldn't say that after rushing out of rays' place, burnt face and all.... he wouldnt say "hmmm... I've got a wife and a baby boy, let's see if this Slav can keep up with some real american bikers... which we have conviently placed a motor cycle a few feet away!" B.S. Oh, and to top everything off, Rockstar has deliberately hired a voice actor to conviently 100% resemble a fat bald white bikers' voice, and has him discuss events from a random bikers' perspective of ripping off diamond money that his president did...... It sounds more like he is leading Niko on a wild goose chase, vs seeing if getting killed with 2 million dollars, and a wife and a baby is a smart idea. Smh how does Rockstar expect people to believe in the b.s? Johnny resembles a different person in Nikos story, and slightly different in Luis's story. Then he resembles a person who's been a druggie his whole life, and desperate his whole life, which isn't the case. Who is Johnny Klebitz, really? How do you know who he is if they're constantly making changes in his mannerisms, beliefes, consistent reactions to anything, and the illusion that he's gone through what has happened to him? For all we know, Johnny could have 3 brothers, because there is 3 distinct, unique versions of identification in him. If he had 3 brothers, Johnny would take 1 of 3 of those different characteristics that they displayed him in, in the same situations. GTA 4 Johnny is a little more trusting, but more calm, cautious, but has a bit of a poker face to him. GTA tlad Johnny is more rough, been through hell, but is rounded well enough to keep his head. He is anxious and distrusting of others, but will go with the motions to get the job done. He is also ready to be put in the it's you or me situation, even if it scars him inside. He is more matured, and secure in his abilities, but is not calm and relaxed and..... automatic, like he is in GTA iv. In GTA 5.... His characteristics shows that he was never the person(s) he used to be in GTA 4 or tlad. He seems like he was a weak man even before he started hard drugs. He seems to have never had a strong sside. He also seems about half an inch taller to. He has an extra small frame, his bones being smaller than Ashleys'(and she is thinner by GTA 5) he almost seems to have been raised differently with a different set of values and beliefs vs johnny k. He doesn't seem like he's been through what he went through in 4, and even has brown eyes and a different head shape. But still the same genetic make up. Niko in tlad doesn't have that dark or deep side to him, he is more flashy, and more money hungry. In tbogt he is like that to. He doesn't have this deep emotional emptiness or understanding and slight maturation of life in general either. His life aspirations seem to be a lot different to. He doesn't seem nearly as troubled or urgent for money and finding something out. He seems fine.... relaxed with a different personality and slightly different mannerisms. Idk, Rockstar needs to make consistent characters always changing through the things they experience and cope with, but also should be consistent in how they cope with what is going on around them, but shouldn't really be changed into something they can't be.

[iiCriminnaaL]

I don't have much desire to get so deeply into this, but there're a few points that create some sort of certainty that Jim is alive (or was) to me:

• Jim told Johnny that he was going to "get the brothers", yet instead recommended Johnny to call Terry and Clay a little bit later.
• Why would he go back to Exeter Avenue? It would've made more sense for him to help Johnny, Terry and Clay out, or at least hide somewhere in Bohan or Broker.
• If the white, fat biker is supposed to be Jim, it would've made more sense to reuse the other biker that appeared alongside him in the main game for The Lost and Damned. But for some reason R* just used both "Jims" in The Lost and Damned, which might or mightn't have been hinting to something. Still, "Jim's" model in the main game is named "M_Y_Jim_Fitz" in the files, but that still could refer to an indirect connection to Jim, and not supposedly Jim himself, especially with taking the details I mentioned (along with ones that have been mentioned already) in consideration.
• The money was just forgotten after those events.

The dead body was witnessed as Jim, but this could've been easily faked if he got into the witness protection program or whatever.

Edited December 16, 2020 by iiCriminnaaL 49